Lt. Dunleavy, NHMP, responds.... - Page 7

codeman671 · 04-21-2008, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandy Beach

By the way. Has anyone ever seen Islander and Bear Island in the same place at the same time?

That would be easy, if in fact they really are the same person after all...

Cal · 04-21-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

New Jersey requires a flag for water skiers and kayakers, but has a thoroughly-enforced 30-MPH limit on its premiere lake!

Do they know Cal?

If you're talking about Lake Hopatcong , it's a hundred miles from me and the size of Alton Bay , if that. Not even worth the effort to get there for me so needless to say , I know nothing about it.
Of course , why don't you mention the HP limit on Alcyon Lake , right in my hometown of Pitman. Electric trolling motors only.... on the entire three acres of lake

Bear Islander · 04-21-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

That would be easy, if in fact they really are the same person after all...

Another interesting conspiracy theory. Except that the Webmaster would know the truth, IP's are logged I believe.

codeman671 · 04-22-2008, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Another interesting conspiracy theory. Except that the Webmaster would know the truth, IP's are logged I believe.

I know, just injecting a bit of humor...This theory went around before, although during the summer on the island it looked to be the same. I am sure this time of year it would be easy to tell.

codeman671 · 04-22-2008, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

News to me, and I could have witnessed this fatality from my living room. Please scan-in some documentation of this revelation.

This was taken from the NH Bass Federation statement against the speed limit. I can send you the link to their facts sheet if you like, although I am sure you are too busy searching the net for additional pictures of GFBL's to add to the same 3-4 that you continue to post over and over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Please advise us why a performance boat flying into a Winnipesaukee cottage, killing three, doesn't count.

I am not familar with this one...Sounds like your typical crap to me. Please scan-in some documentation of this revelation.

ApS · 04-22-2008, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

"...This thread was not enjoyable in my eyes...As a long time Forum member I have looked forward to checking out this web site as often as I can. Not so since this speed limit harangue..."

It's one thing to click on a debating forum clearly marked Speed Limits, and another to characterize one side of that debate as a "harangue". Many others await a favorable Senate decision for a boating rule for sanity. Those who do not post here, like my Wolfeboro-resident parents, are appreciative of all efforts for boating sanity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...You can't judge a whole group (or a "cult" as APS referred to us as...

) by one individual who made a poor choice one night...!"

...a poor choice? Like not coming to his victims' aid? Hiding his boat? Blaming the victims? Running away?

Unhappily, the Speed Cult has many cases of this "entitlement behavior". In recent years one fatality occurred at Chappaquidick—of all places.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...And the GPS - who cares where that is located, it offers NO information pertaining to safe operation, it just tells you how fast you're going. Again, if you had any real experience with performance boats, you'd know that...All those "distractions"...oil & water...temp and pressure...fuel level, speed, tach, boost, volts, etc..."

Modern high speed transport offers "heads-up" displays on their windshields so that one's eyes stay aimed ahead. Today, there are wireless displays available for your helmet:

I'm recalling my own instructor's advice on buying helmets, "If you have a $10 head, buy a $10 helmet." Say...I don't see any helmets in your photo showing 110-MPH....

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

"...Maybe next you should post some pics of sailboat accidents that occurred somewhere around the globe..."

OK. Here's a US sailor struck by a speeding powerboat, making a new companionway:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...So, you never addressed YOUR experience with performance boats!? Your "racer" that you built at Brewster...was it the little 10' footer I mentioned with the 15hp outboard on it...!?"

Your post appeared twice: it's answered here: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...&postcount=516

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...That is a boat that you see through the canopy - it was over 1 mile down, we slowed down long before getting to it..."

You're showing 110-MPH on GPS, and that boat appears to be ½-mile away, not 1 mile. You had less than 20 seconds to slow. What was going through the other boater's thoughts (and prayers)?

BTW: One of the early speed-record boats with a water brake ended up killing the operator when he used it.

ApS · 04-22-2008, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...This was taken from the NH Bass Federation statement against the speed limit..."

Link, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...I am not familar with this one...Please scan-in some documentation of this revelation.

It's hardly a revelation to the people of Gilford: speed limit opponents GWC and SIKSUKR posted it at this very site:

Quote:

Posted By: GWC...
Date: Monday, August 25, 2003 at 1:18 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Baja "gets air", hits car

"...Don't you "remember" the "professional" (doctor/lawyer type) that put their "go fast" into a cottage?

It ended up upside down in the cottage - apparently, the hull design, deep V, caused the boat to roll when it encountered the shore.

Sadly, death arrived at the scene, as well, if I remember correctly.

Followed by:

Quote:

Posted By: Stinger
Date: Monday, August 25, 2003 at 4:54 p.m.

In Response To: Boat enters cottage - upside down... (GWC...)

It was a cigarette boat, traveling at high speed after dark. The boat hit a dock and flew into the air, flipped, and landed in a cottage, all three on board were killed..."

Followed by:

Quote:

Posted By: SIKSUKR
Date: Thursday, August 28, 2003 at 7:44 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Boat enters cottage - upside down... (Sweeper)

I believe the accident that you refer to was driven by the owner of Davidson construction of NH.It was a high speed night incident and alcohol was involved.He was killed in the accident. SS

Bu-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-ttt...it doesn't count because the dock probably caused the launch into the cottage, and the cottage was probably too big a target and it was probably built too close to the water, and it was after dark, and the "driver" was probably drinking, and he was probably distracted and he probably was not observing the 150-foot rule and he probably didn't have his boater certificate, and nobody in the cottage was killed anyway...and it probably happened in an area known to be crowded...and it probably happened a long time ago...ad nauseum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...I am sure you are too busy searching the net for additional pictures of GFBL's to add to the same 3-4 that you continue to post over and over..."

Like this one?

This is a brand-new panorama image of the same ½-mile shoreline showing various people on two different days—fortunately. (The middle photo is a small rowboat pacing a teen gal swimming a "long swim".)

(Actually, I was preparing tomorrow's post here, but since you were kind enough to provide still another opportunity...

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal

"...If you're talking about Lake Hopatcong...it's...the size of Alton Bay, if that..."

I can't speak to speeds on Alton Bay, but how did Lake Hopatcong happen to get such a serious speed limit of only 30-MPH? (And they ticket 35-MPH!) Does such an "exclusionary" law cause high-performance boaters to trailer to Lake Winnipesaukee?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...In fact - your point in posting any of those pics...again, what's the point...!?"

Oh, I dunno. Trying to express the empathy that is missing for your less-important neighbors?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

So this speed limit is all Woodsy's fault?
All this time I thought he was against it.

We've seen that most of The Opposition are their own worst enemy—even off the water!

Who was opposed to 25-MPH-Night (only) as early as in 2002?

Who was the first to educate us that, "Radar doesn't work on water"?

Who was the second to educate us on Radar? Excerpted:

Quote:

"...the obvious visual deterrant of the MP boats in the first place which would probably slow someone down anyhow..."
—codeman671

Seems to corroborate one of the eight major errors in The Survey, doesn't it...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

"...Let's hope that this is over and done with soon..."

"This?"

Watch for more "incidents" irrespective of the outcome this week.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...I agree - common sense can't be taught..."

A speed limit violation comes with a fine and consequently, an insurance surcharge. Violating a sign like this one comes with a ticket for those who lack the common sense to park other than in front of your driveway:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evenstar

What is not logical is allowing powerboats to travel at unlimited speeds on lakes that are shared by small, slow moving boats.

Even boating on The Broads, I've been seeing a lot more tiny inflatables (smaller than this off-season inflatable off my dock) with whole families in them!

Bear Islander · 04-22-2008, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

I know, just injecting a bit of humor...This theory went around before, although during the summer on the island it looked to be the same. I am sure this time of year it would be easy to tell.

Humor to you I'm sure. Some readers may think its true.

hazelnut · 04-22-2008, 08:44 AM

APS?

Your constant incoherent rants are doing nothing for your case. Your pictures show nothing and prove nothing. A picture of a do not block driveway sign

Your claims of 3 people dying? Show me the evidence? Still waiting for proof of that one.

So you want to have your cake AND eat it too. Whether or not people knew about the speed zones it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the majority of boaters DON'T regularly exceed 45mph. I am on the lake ALL SUMMER just about every day. I can tell you that this ridiculous thought that hundreds of boats are speeding around just isn't true!!! You can say it over and over it doesn't make it any more factual. How much are you even on the lake? So whatever you think about the data doesn't mean much to me. A smart person can look at the data and then compare that with what they actually witness on a daily basis and concur that speed is not the problem.

jrc · 04-22-2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Humor to you I'm sure. Some readers may think its true.

What does it matter? Like many I can access several IP addresses. If I wanted sock puppets I could have them. Although sympathetic to speed limits, Islander is not as invested in the minutia of the arguments on this board as BI. They have different tones as well it's really hard to hide tone. I don't think we have a lot of imposters on the board.

Who could fake APS?

Bear Islander · 04-22-2008, 09:16 AM

On first reading I knew you must have in mind a different meaning for "sock puppet", so I looked it up on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29

DoTheMath · 04-22-2008, 10:13 AM

Acres Per Second - you're DONE! You have taken information from another post and put it up here in this one in hopes to gain some traction on your unfounded rants. Reason why you skipped out on that other thread!? Forget it, you have ZERO credibility with me and most others on this site that read your basic, factless, thinly veiled propaganda.

So, you have never heard of Wharton!? Glad you got the most out of that Brewster Education you speak so highly of...

http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/

Your little 10' home-built boat that sunk when you were 17 is all you have for "performance boat" experience, well that plus what you read in the latest issue of whatever boating magazine you were able to pick up in your dentists office during your semi-annual visits. I know all about types, construction, hydro-dynamics etc... don't need pictures to show me. And if you don't have the disposable income to buy, own, etc... a real "toy" then what are you basing your viewpoints on!? I don't have the disposable income to buy a private jet, but I'm sure not going to bash them or the owners that do, just because they do.

Aside of that - don't EVER assume that you know me and that I have no "empathy" for anyone - I know the FACTS behind that accident that you posted the picture of and I know the people involved!! Maybe you can ask the kid in the sailboat that was sinking one day off Bear Island that I rescued, got his boat up on the beach and fixed for him what he thinks? Or maybe his folks - ask them... I bet they want to keel haul me for being so "unempathetic"!?

As for the poor choice - I was referring to drinking then getting behind the wheel of a boat.

Not that it matters but, been riding motorcycles since I was 9 years old, (I'm now 39) been on dirt, been on the street, been on the track, been over 140mph, I know all about speed, helmets and their usage - one saved my life one day - but thanks!

So, you're that good that you can tell me - without being there, in the boat - that the other boat "appears" to be a 1/2 mile away from us!?!? Hmmm - give me the mathematical formula you used for that please.

And I asked you about organized poker runs - not what you are assimilating to be a busy weekend that somehow you feel is a poker run. BTW, that picture you posted of the two boats passing the bass boat, do you (really) know how fast they were going? Do you (really) know how far away from each other they were? Did you pull out your fancy abacus / slide rule or whatever you used for the guess on my Delta distance to figure it out!? They could be just violating the 150' safe passage law, couldn't they!? Something I have seen 100x in a week by jet skis, bowriders and the like... again, thin at best.

I can make a car accident look like it was the fault of the driver, the driver of the other car, the squirrel that ran into the road, the radio - take your pick! Again, boating accidents happen - car accidents happen - planes crash - trains derail... Look at the facts and tell me what you know from first-hand experience and JUST THE FACTS! Don't spin 'em, skew 'em and twist 'em all up to make it seem like you know what you are talking about, or what you refer to is reality.

Seriously - please go back and read what you have been posting... you are sounding more and more like you are making this stuff up. It's not even fun anymore to debate these issues with you. It's like sitting in a room and watching Warren Buffett (you know who he is right, it's not the singer that is famous for Margaritaville

) and Jessica Simpson discuss the nuances of investment in domestic textile industries! You keep digging and digging and getting less dirt on your shovel!

Cal · 04-22-2008, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

I can't speak to speeds on Alton Bay, but how did Lake Hopatcong happen to get such a serious speed limit of only 30-MPH? (And they ticket 35-MPH!) Does such an "exclusionary" law cause high-performance boaters to trailer to Lake Winnipesaukee?

I don't care if the speed limit on Hopatcong is 110 mph. It's not big enough to be worth a 100 mile drive to get there. It deserves a speed limit. It's not much bigger that a puddle.

ApS · 04-23-2008, 08:25 AM

Skipper,

You mentioned disliking the "speed limit harangue" .

"Harangue" is defined as: "harangue (n): A long pompous speech..."

Does the following qualify as a "harangue"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

Acres Per Second - you're DONE! You have taken information from another post and put it up here in this one in hopes to gain some traction on your unfounded rants. Reason why you skipped out on that other thread!? Forget it, you have ZERO credibility with me and most others on this site that read your basic, factless, thinly veiled propaganda.

So, you have never heard of Wharton!? Glad you got the most out of that Brewster Education you speak so highly of...

http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/

Your little 10' home-built boat that sunk when you were 17 is all you have for "performance boat" experience, well that plus what you read in the latest issue of whatever boating magazine you were able to pick up in your dentists office during your semi-annual visits. I know all about types, construction, hydro-dynamics etc... don't need pictures to show me. And if you don't have the disposable income to buy, own, etc... a real "toy" then what are you basing your viewpoints on!? I don't have the disposable income to buy a private jet, but I'm sure not going to bash them or the owners that do, just because they do.

Aside of that - don't EVER assume that you know me and that I have no "empathy" for anyone - I know the FACTS behind that accident that you posted the picture of and I know the people involved!! Maybe you can ask the kid in the sailboat that was sinking one day off Bear Island that I rescued, got his boat up on the beach and fixed for him what he thinks? Or maybe his folks - ask them... I bet they want to keel haul me for being so "unempathetic"!?

As for the poor choice - I was referring to drinking then getting behind the wheel of a boat.

Not that it matters but, been riding motorcycles since I was 9 years old, (I'm now 39) been on dirt, been on the street, been on the track, been over 140mph, I know all about speed, helmets and their usage - one saved my life one day - but thanks!

So, you're that good that you can tell me - without being there, in the boat - that the other boat "appears" to be a 1/2 mile away from us!?!? Hmmm - give me the mathematical formula you used for that please.

And I asked you about organized poker runs - not what you are assimilating to be a busy weekend that somehow you feel is a poker run. BTW, that picture you posted of the two boats passing the bass boat, do you (really) know how fast they were going? Do you (really) know how far away from each other they were? Did you pull out your fancy abacus / slide rule or whatever you used for the guess on my Delta distance to figure it out!? They could be just violating the 150' safe passage law, couldn't they!? Something I have seen 100x in a week by jet skis, bowriders and the like... again, thin at best.

I can make a car accident look like it was the fault of the driver, the driver of the other car, the squirrel that ran into the road, the radio - take your pick! Again, boating accidents happen - car accidents happen - planes crash - trains derail... Look at the facts and tell me what you know from first-hand experience and JUST THE FACTS! Don't spin 'em, skew 'em and twist 'em all up to make it seem like you know what you are talking about, or what you refer to is reality.

Seriously - please go back and read what you have been posting... you are sounding more and more like you are making this stuff up. It's not even fun anymore to debate these issues with you. It's like sitting in a room and watching Warren Buffett (you know who he is right, it's not the singer that is famous for Margaritaville

) and Jessica Simpson discuss the nuances of investment in domestic textile industries! You keep digging and digging and getting less dirt on your shovel!

The reason for asking, is that we don't seem to be discussing the instability of high speed boating any more and there don't appear to be any worthwhile questions in all that above.

I'm reduced to placing more views of "tunnel-hull" undersides!

(At speeds well below DoTheMath's 110-MPH tunnel-hulled Skater, BTW).

SIKSUKR · 04-23-2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Bu-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-ttt...it doesn't count because the dock probably caused the launch into the cottage, and the cottage was probably too big a target and it was probably built too close to the water, and it was after dark, and the "driver" was probably drinking, and he was probably distracted and he probably was not observing the 150-foot rule and he probably didn't have his boater certificate, and nobody in the cottage was killed anyway...and it probably happened in an area known to be crowded...and it probably happened a long time ago...ad nauseum.

Are you serious?A drunk guy drives his boat into a cottage at night and you use this example to show a need for a speed limit?If you believe a speed limit would have changed his behavior that night than there really is no reasoning with you.Wow,were really reaching now!

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Are you serious?A drunk guy drives his boat into a cottage at night and you use this example to show a need for a speed limit?If you believe a speed limit would have changed his behavior that night than there really is no reasoning with you.Wow,were really reaching now!

The drunk operator would not have hit that house if he was boating elsewhere. A speed limit may cause him to boat elsewhere. A horsepower limit certainly would.

This is a major point you guys keep missing.

hazelnut · 04-23-2008, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The drunk operator would not have hit that house if he was boating elsewhere. A speed limit may cause him to boat elsewhere. A horsepower limit certainly would.

This is a major point you guys keep missing.

It's official ha ha ha ha ha ha

We've gone from sane point counterpoint to pure insane speculation.

I'm putting so many laugh faces to indicate the reality that I just laughed so hard I spit water all over my screen... ha ha ha ha ha

By far the best post on this entire forum I have ever seen. I'm printing this one and hanging it on the wall.

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

It's official ha ha ha ha ha ha

We've gone from sane point counterpoint to pure insane speculation.

I'm putting so many laugh faces to indicate the reality that I just laughed so hard I spit water all over my screen... ha ha ha ha ha

By far the best post on this entire forum I have ever seen. I'm printing this one and hanging it on the wall.

When you stop laughing can you explain how the accident could have happened if the lake had a horsepower limit?

chmeeee · 04-23-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

When you stop laughing can you explain how the accident could have happened if the lake had a horsepower limit?

Even if they enacted a horsepower limit, which I sincerely doubt they would, it would have to only cover boats that were produced after the date the law was enacted. I am going to assume that the boat that crashed into the house was produced before today, no?

They're not going to enact a law that renders their own residents' possesions illegal and nearly worthless, it just would never happen. Given that, it would take at least 20 years, if not more, to get the high power boats off the lake with a HP limit, since it would take that long for them to wear out. In fact, they'd probably last even longer since there would be added incentive to keep them up.

Once again, the driver was drunk, and that is already illegal, and IMO the most egregious boating violation you can commit. If you're willing to get in your boat drunk and take a nighttime cruise, I'm sure that there are very few laws that you would even consider following.

DoTheMath · 04-23-2008, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

When you stop laughing can you explain how the accident could have happened if the lake had a horsepower limit?

I'll bite on this one...

So, say there was a - what... 500hp limit!?!? Will that work in this case!? Yup! ok - so, how about a 20' boat with saaaaayyyyy a 250hp outboard motor that could travel at 75mph!?

Like this one: http://www.hydrostream.com/models_voyager.html

(Insert remaining data from situation here and you have your answer).

NEEEEEXT!

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chmeeee

They're not going to enact a law that renders their own residents' possesions illegal and nearly worthless, it just would never happen. :

It has happened before many times, it will happen again. Many years ago I was involved with another lake passing similar limits. At the hearing many residents asked who is going to pay for their useless boats. The unspoken answer was nobody.

Besides a horsepower limit doesn't make your boat worth less. Sell it, or use it elsewhere.

In this accident scenario we are supposing that a speed limit or horsepower limit was in place at that time. I thought that was obvious.

The point is that once you regulate a boat off of the lake it can no longer have accidents here. And a boat that leaves voluntarily because of a speed limit can't be involved in accidents either. Problem Solved!

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

I'll bite on this one...

So, say there was a - what... 500hp limit!?!? Will that work in this case!? Yup! ok - so, how about a 20' boat with saaaaayyyyy a 250hp outboard motor that could travel at 75mph!?

Like this one: http://www.hydrostream.com/models_voyager.html

(Insert remaining data from situation here and you have your answer).

NEEEEEXT!

Are you arguing for even lower HP limits? How do your numbers work for 10 HP. Many NH lakes have 10 HP limits. Personally I think that low is unnecessary.

DoTheMath · 04-23-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Are you arguing for even lower HP limits? How do your numbers work for 10 HP. Many NH lakes have 10 HP limits. Personally I think that low is unnecessary.

NO - I am saying that your argument for a horsepower limit offers no potential avoidance for this accident. If he was driving a boat with 1,000 hp or 250hp., he was DRUNK and that was the cause of the accident - not the hp.

And if a particular boat is regulated off or leaves voluntarily - you think that will prevent and solve ANY accidents from happening!? Brotha' - I need some of whatever it is you are smoking - it must be THAT good!

chipj29 · 04-23-2008, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The drunk operator would not have hit that house if he was boating elsewhere. A speed limit may cause him to boat elsewhere. A horsepower limit certainly would.

This is a major point you guys keep missing.

But I thought the speed limit wasn't about regulating a certain type of boat off the lake?

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

But I thought the speed limit wasn't about regulating a certain type of boat off the lake?

Here we go again!!!

The speed limit is NOT about regulating a certain type of boat of the lake. I support a speed limit.

************************************************** ******

As a TOTALLY SEPARATE MATTER I personally believe in a horsepower limit. My idea is a 300 HP limit for boats made after 2008. This idea would keep high performance boats and cruisers from coming to the lake. And, over time, virtually eliminate them.

************************************************** *****

Now this is a third TOTALLY SEPARATE ARGUMENT

The recent exchange is about how do you prevent a drunk operating a Cigarette boat at high speed from hitting a cottage and killing people. The answer is simple, don't allow him on the lake in the first place.

EricP · 04-23-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

But I thought the speed limit wasn't about regulating a certain type of boat off the lake?

It really is but some people just won't admit it no matter how obvious it is

EricP · 04-23-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Here we go again!!!

The speed limit is NOT about regulating a certain type of boat of the lake. I support a speed limit.

************************************************** ******

As a TOTALLY SEPARATE MATTER I personally believe in a horsepower limit. My idea is a 300 HP limit for boats made after 2008. This idea would keep high performance boats and cruisers from coming to the lake. And, over time, virtually eliminate them.

************************************************** *****

Now this is a third TOTALLY SEPARATE ARGUMENT

The recent exchange is about how do you prevent a drunk operating a Cigarette boat at high speed from hitting a cottage and killing people. The answer is simple, don't allow him on the lake in the first place.

What's to stop a drunk from driving a truck into a house? I guess we should also ban trucks from driving through town so this can't happen either. Man your logic is horrible.

hazelnut · 04-23-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

When you stop laughing can you explain how the accident could have happened if the lake had a horsepower limit?

I can't...... ha ha ha ha ha ha still laughing..... ha ha ha ha the silliness, the speculation....

too much to compute..... overload..... ha ha ha ha ha

I have another one for you. Maybe if God made the lake different and moved the island slightly to the left..... ha ha ha ha ha

Sorry.... I just can't stop laughing at that post.

Especially because drunks behind the wheel are SO law abiding.

OK ha ha ho ok please give me the made up limits that you have in mind and I will concoct a tale to fit within your numbers.

Still howling... one things for sure this thread has given us some good laughs.

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Especially because drunks behind the wheel are SO law abiding.

Take a deep breath and think of something not funny. Like the upcoming vote in the Senate.

Then take just a minute to outline a scenario that fits the criteria. Remember they are a drunk operating a Cigarette boat at high speed that ends up hitting a cottage and a triple decapitation, on a lake with a 300 horsepower limit. The horsepower limit is fictional, the rest is factual.

jrc · 04-23-2008, 04:35 PM

Can someone post a link to any information on this three head decapitation? It's not that I don't beleive it but wow that's one heck of an accident.

hazelnut · 04-23-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Take a deep breath and think of something not funny. Like the upcoming vote in the Senate.

Then take just a minute to outline a scenario that fits the criteria. Remember they are a drunk operating a Cigarette boat at high speed that ends up hitting a cottage and a triple decapitation, on a lake with a 300 horsepower limit. The horsepower limit is fictional, the rest is factual.

Hey thanks you already did it for me.... ha ha ha ha

Three drunks launch a cigarette boat on winni for the day and drive it up on land and die.

Oh wait too improbable for you? I mean three drunks wouldn't disobey a law ould they?

Ok how bout this 3 guys in a 20 foot Skeeter with a 200hp go out fishing for the day. Unfortunately these guys like to drink while they fish. Well after 8-10 beers each they figure what the heck lets see what she'll do. It has gotten dark and they were a bit farther out than they originally planned. On the way back to the docks whamo they hit the shore launch it and at over 70MPH all were killed instantly.

I used a fishng boat for this example because we aren't targeting one type of boat are we BI.

Still laughing at the original post...

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Three drunks launch a cigarette boat on winni for the day and drive it up on land and die.

Oh wait too improbable for you? I mean three drunks wouldn't disobey a law ould they?

We are talking about a real accident with a Cigarette boat and three deaths.

So in your scenario the owner didn't know there was a horsepower limit? Or he knew and decided to launch the boat anyway? Nobody at the launch ramp told them about the limit? Nobody called the Marine Patrol when they saw the Cigarette boat on the lake? The Marine Partrol were not in Meredith Bay that day?

hazelnut · 04-23-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

We are talking about a real accident with a Cigarette boat and three deaths.

So in your scenario the owner didn't know there was a horsepower limit? Or he knew and decided to launch the boat anyway? Nobody at the launch ramp told them about the limit? Nobody called the Marine Patrol when they saw the Cigarette boat on the lake? The Marine Partrol were not in Meredith Bay that day?

So are you dismissing the second scenario? I mean we're not targeting a particular type of boat ARE we?

Wow the true colors are showing through......

Further clarification to avoid the inevitable. You maintain that the HP limit and Speed Limit would prevent an accident like this. Get a clue it doesn't have to be a "cigarette" boat. I gave you an example but I'm sure they'll be some spin......

...waiting to laugh......again.

Islander · 04-23-2008, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

So are you dismissing the second scenario? I mean we're not targeting a particular type of boat ARE we?

Wow the true colors are showing through......

BI - Why do you bother with this guy. He is not taking any of this seriously.

hazelnut · 04-23-2008, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Islander

BI - Why do you bother with this guy. He is not taking any of this seriously.

Yeah I see Islander, when the wheels are falling off step one is to discredit me by saying, I don't take any of this seriously. WOW!

Whatever.

So Bear Islander any spin on the latest? Did I answer your question?

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Islander

BI - Why do you bother with this guy. He is not taking any of this seriously.

For a while I figured he was confused. Didn't realize we were talking about a real accident. Maybe he is drunk.

hazelnut · 04-23-2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

For a while I figured he was confused. Didn't realize we were talking about a real accident. Maybe he is drunk.

Yeah thats it keep digging.... It's all you've got now because your credibility is now the joke of the forum..... Sorry but it's true.

codeman671 · 04-23-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

For a while I figured he was confused. Didn't realize we were talking about a real accident. Maybe he is drunk.

Please post a link to the details of this accident. I have never heard of it before, I'd like to see the story. I assume it had to be quite a while back, otherwise it would have been brought up more.

hazelnut · 04-23-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

Please post a link to the details of this accident. I have never heard of it before, I'd like to see the story. I assume it had to be quite a while back, otherwise it would have been brought up more.

Don't hold your breath..

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Don't hold your breath..

Way back in the 70's a Cigarette hit a dock in Gilford at high speed. Went airborne, rolled upside down and landed on a cottage. Three dead. Just one of those high speed fatal accidents you guys tell each other never happened. And it was not boat-to-boat so it doesn't count.

Now please call me a liar so you can eat your words later.

chmeeee · 04-23-2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Way back in the 70's a Cigarette hit a dock in Gilford at high speed. Went airborne, rolled upside down and landed on a cottage. Three dead. Just one of those high speed fatal accidents you guys tell each other never happened. And it was not boat-to-boat so it doesn't count.

Now please call me a liar so you can eat your words later.

Do you really think after 30 years that that has any kind of relevance to our discussion?

codeman671 · 04-23-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Way back in the 70's a Cigarette hit a dock in Gilford at high speed. Went airborne, rolled upside down and landed on a cottage. Three dead. Just one of those high speed fatal accidents you guys tell each other never happened. And it was not boat-to-boat so it doesn't count.

Now please call me a liar so you can eat your words later.

Back in the 70's? I think an accident 30+ years ago is pushing it in this conversation. I am not calling you a liar, but I think this being brought into the burden of proof in todays arguments is a bit much.

High speed? How fast? How fast were "cigarette boats" back in the 70's? Alcohol involved?

Why not make it illegal for a person operating a boat to have any drinks whatsoever? It seems like alcohol has played a factor in just about every boating accident mentioned. Does a sober person crash their boat into a dock and land on a cottage? Does a sober person run over another boat in Meredith at night while traveling at low speeds? Does a sober person run over another boat on Long Lake on a night with good visibility?

The common denominator is alcohol and the answer to all above is NO!!!

Islander · 04-23-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chmeeee

Do you really think after 30 years that that has any kind of relevance to our discussion?

Yes!

We still have Cigarette boats, docks, cottages, alcohol. What has changed since then that would prevent it from happening this summer? Nothing!

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

Back in the 70's? I think an accident 30+ years ago is pushing it in this conversation. I am not calling you a liar, but I think this being brought into the burden of proof in todays arguments is a bit much.

High speed? How fast? How fast were "cigarette boats" back in the 70's? Alcohol involved?

Why not make it illegal for a person operating a boat to have any drinks whatsoever? It seems like alcohol has played a factor in just about every boating accident mentioned. Does a sober person crash their boat into a dock and land on a cottage? Does a sober person run over another boat in Meredith at night while traveling at low speeds? Does a sober person run over another boat on Long Lake on a night with good visibility?

The common denominator is alcohol and the answer to all above is NO!!!

Hazelnut has pointed out in recent posts that drunks don't obey the laws. You want to pass a no alcohol on boats law, fine by me.

If there had been a horsepower limit on the lake in the 70's this accident could not have happened, or at least it would have been a smaller, slower boat hitting the cottage.

What happened to Hazelnut?

GWC... · 04-23-2008, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Islander

Yes!

We still have Cigarette boats, docks, cottages, alcohol. What has changed since then that would prevent it from happening this summer? Nothing!

You are correct.

The Speed Limit Bill will not change a thing, safety-wise...

Interesting Safety Alert by the NTSB...

Does not fit your agenda; but interesting, never-the-less...

codeman671 · 04-23-2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Hazelnut has pointed out in recent posts that drunks don't obey the laws. You want to pass a no alcohol on boats law, fine by me.

If there had been a horsepower limit on the lake in the 70's this accident could not have happened, or at least it would have been a smaller, slower boat hitting the cottage.

What happened to Hazelnut?

He is laughing so hard he started to hyper-ventilate.

He was right, drunks do not obey the law. If they are drunk and behind the wheel they are already breaking the law, and a speed limit will not protect anyone.

How about a homework assignment? A list of all powerboat accidents in the last 30 years (to make a certain few happy), no phantom stuff, actual verifiable accidents that resulted in a death or serious injury IN NH. I think it would be interesting to see the list, and the causes/contributing factors. Nothing in FL, Michigan, or anywhere else. No close calls, actual accidents. This debate and law is about NH boating and NH waterways. Maybe a followup of non-powered boating accidents, which most likely will be GREATER in number.

APS? BI? Islander? Anyone?

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

He is laughing so hard he started to hyper-ventilate.

He was right, drunks do not obey the law. If they are drunk and behind the wheel they are already breaking the law, and a speed limit will not protect anyone.

How about a homework assignment? A list of all powerboat accidents in the last 30 years (to make a certain few happy), no phantom stuff, actual verifiable accidents that resulted in a death or serious injury IN NH. I think it would be interesting to see the list, and the causes/contributing factors. Nothing in FL, Michigan, or anywhere else. No close calls, actual accidents. This debate and law is about NH boating and NH waterways. Maybe a followup of non-powered boating accidents, which most likely will be GREATER in number.

APS? BI? Islander? Anyone?

Careful.... They will think you are starting to drink the coolaid.

This accident doesn't count.... alcohol. And I'm willing to bet they violated the 150' rule. Too long ago... Not boat-to-boat... Accidents on other lakes don't count... That lake is smaller... Coast Guard never said 45/25..., Winnipesaukee has a different shape... yada yada yada.

Like they say, not just a river in Egypt.

Then they post that there is absolutely no evidence to support a speed limit.

codeman671 · 04-23-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Careful.... They will think you are starting to drink the coolaid.

This accident doesn't count.... alcohol. And I'm willing to bet they violated the 150' rule. Too long ago... Not boat-to-boat... Accidents on other lakes don't count... That lake is smaller... Coast Guard never said 45/25..., Winnipesaukee has a different shape... yada yada yada.

Like they say, not just a river in Egypt.

Then they post that there is absolutely no evidence to support a speed limit.

Try it, the results may surprise you (and I'm not talking about the coolaid)...

I'll make it easy. I'll start.

Littlefield- low speed accident caused by a drunk driver not paying attention.

Jet ski accident from 2007- underage kid on a jetski who legally should not have even been operating it. No mention if speed was a factor. The machine involved was probably capable of no more than 50mph.

Eagle- underage drunk teen hits the rocks and ends up on the island.

Anyone care to add?

jrc · 04-23-2008, 10:02 PM

BI how can you possibly have any idea how many horsepower that boat had 30 years ago? You can't even they me what year it occurred but you know it had more than 300 hp. You don't even know what kind of boat it was.

I'm not calling you a liar, but I think you basing a lot of facts on stories passed down from friends.

I also thought people wanted to make the lake safer, like it was twenty to thirty years ago. Sounds pretty dangerous with people getting decapitated all the time. Since no one has been decapitated lately (30 years) maybe we have made the lake safer now.

EricP · 04-23-2008, 10:39 PM

It absolutely amazes me that BI can keep this going. Wanting a law for every potential things that could possibly go wrong is absolutely ridiculous. I seriously think he needs to move to a mountain top somewhere far away from society because he doesn't appear to want to be a part of it unless it is only on his terms. We don't need people like that in our society. I read these posts and shake my head the whole time. Kinda makes the forums that much less enjoyable. Very childish.

Bear Islander · 04-23-2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

BI how can you possibly have any idea how many horsepower that boat had 30 years ago? You can't even they me what year it occurred but you know it had more than 300 hp. You don't even know what kind of boat it was.

I'm not calling you a liar, but I think you basing a lot of facts on stories passed down from friends.

I also thought people wanted to make the lake safer, like it was twenty to thirty years ago. Sounds pretty dangerous with people getting decapitated all the time. Since no one has been decapitated lately (30 years) maybe we have made the lake safer now.

I told you it was a Cigarette. How low could the horsepower have been.

This accident was part of the testimony in the Moultonboro HB162 hearing. It happened in the spring of 1975. It was a Cigarette. I don't know the speed but obviously it was moving pretty good. The owner was the uncle of a forum member. It was talked about years ago. Try a search.

Again this accident could have happened last summer or next summer. Nothing has changed. The operator may not have had a safe boating certificate back then, but would that have changed anything? He probably knew that BWI and hitting a cottage while inverted were bad ideas.

APS has been posting about this accident for two days. This is what codeman said about the accident yesterday.

I am not familar with this one...Sounds like your typical crap to me. Please scan-in some documentation of this revelation.

Skip · 04-24-2008, 05:02 AM

Since the conversation here has turned much to the topic of impaired operation I thought that this article is extremely relevant.

Some honestly believe that the simple implementation of a rule or regulation will be followed with blind obedience by the great majority of those affected by such change.

What this study shows, as many of us in law enforcement have dealt with on a daily basis for decades, is the simple fact that drunk driving kills and maims thousands each year and all the laws in society have not been enough of an effective deterrent to stem the flow of blood.

Anyway, the story about this particular study is very sobering, to say the least.

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 06:30 AM

As Skip points out, it's hard to stop a drunk. However a horsepower limit will "limit" the damage he can do.

The Cigarette accident in Gilford was talked about on the forum, including a post from the operators nephew. Do a search for 8/21/2003 to 8/28/2003. Look for "Baja gets air" and "Boat enters cottage - upside down.."

There is also a post there where I recommend a horsepower limit. It seems I didn't come up with this as part of a WinnFABS plot.

chipj29 · 04-24-2008, 06:47 AM

OK so a person in a certain style boat "could" go fast, and "could" crash the boat into a cottage. So that is the rationale (at least part of it) for a speed limit.

OK so in my car, I "could" go fast, and "could" crash my car into a house. But since there is a speed limit, there is no chance of that?

My point is this: Lots of things "could" happen, with or without a speed limit. Accidents happen at ALL speeds, and they involve ALL types of boats. You simply cannot prevent them all. Since there have been zero reported accidents in the last few years where speed over 45/25 have been cited as the MAIN cause of the accident, then the speed limit law will not make the lake safer.

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

OK so a person in a certain style boat "could" go fast, and "could" crash the boat into a cottage. So that is the rationale (at least part of it) for a speed limit.

OK so in my car, I "could" go fast, and "could" crash my car into a house. But since there is a speed limit, there is no chance of that?

My point is this: Lots of things "could" happen, with or without a speed limit. Accidents happen at ALL speeds, and they involve ALL types of boats. You simply cannot prevent them all. Since there have been zero reported accidents in the last few years where speed over 45/25 have been cited as the MAIN cause of the accident, then the speed limit law will not make the lake safer.

Your question points out that a horsepower limit is a better solution. Thanks!

And thanks again, speed has to be the MAIN cause of the accident, I forgot that one. The best way is a horsepower, or length, or weight limit. A speed limit is less effective but will work.

The "rationale" along these lines for a speed limit it simple. Most owners of 1,700 HP boats will not choose a lake with a 45 mph speed limit to boat on. It is reported that the number of high horsepower boats on Lake George dropped dramatically after they enacted a speed limit.

I'm hoping the Capt. Boneheads will be the first to go, they NEED speed.

There is no simple way to stop drunks. There ARE simple ways to move him to another lake. Several high performance boaters have claimed they will leave if HB847 passes. I thank them for their honesty.

Is there anyone out there that thinks the number of high horsepower boats on the lake will not be effected by HB847?

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 07:37 AM

BI,

Why should I bother posting you are your own worst enemy. The more you post the deeper it gets in here. Hysterical.... By the way my favorite quote so far...

"I don't know the speed but obviously it was moving pretty good."

Hysterical. Lets pass a law based on this accident coupled with your statement.

chipj29 · 04-24-2008, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Your question points out that a horsepower limit is a better solution. Thanks!
My Nissan has roughly 175 HP, yet it can go 125 on the highway if I want. What would a horsepower limit accomplish?
And thanks again, speed has to be the MAIN cause of the accident, I forgot that one. The best way is a horsepower, or length, or weight limit. A speed limit is less effective but will work.
Work to do what?
The "rationale" along these lines for a speed limit it simple. Most owners of 1,700 HP boats will not choose a lake with a 45 mph speed limit to boat on. It is reported that the number of high horsepower boats on Lake George dropped dramatically after they enacted a speed limit.

I'm hoping the Capt. Boneheads will be the first to go, they NEED speed.
So it really IS about a certain type of boat...
There is no simple way to stop drunks. There ARE simple ways to move him to another lake. Several high performance boaters have claimed they will leave if HB847 passes. I thank them for their honesty.

Is there anyone out there that thinks the number of high horsepower boats on the lake will not be effected by HB847?

In addition to the bolded points, I will just say that the Capt Boneheads come in all shapes and sizes, from a sea kayak to a bow rider to a GFBL.

codeman671 · 04-24-2008, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I told you it was a Cigarette. How low could the horsepower have been.

This accident was part of the testimony in the Moultonboro HB162 hearing. It happened in the spring of 1975. It was a Cigarette. I don't know the speed but obviously it was moving pretty good. The owner was the uncle of a forum member. It was talked about years ago. Try a search.

APS has been posting about this accident for two days. This is what codeman said about the accident yesterday.

I am not familar with this one...Sounds like your typical crap to me. Please scan-in some documentation of this revelation.

My question still stands. I have yet to see any proof which I simply asked for. I searched by your criteria and nothing came up. Why don't you just post a link and get it over with?

Was it a Cigarette or a Baja? You say Cigarette yet you have us searching for Baja. Did Baja even make a true performance boat in the 70's??? According to my searches Baja made their first boat in 1976 and the longest boat they made was a 19' with 170hp. Cigarette did make a limited production of boats prior to 1975. Almost all were 28' and shorter, and even the 35-36' model was probably no more than a 60mph boat with the power they were equipped with standard.

Mark · 04-24-2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Your question points out that a horsepower limit is a better solution. Thanks!

And thanks again, speed has to be the MAIN cause of the accident, I forgot that one. The best way is a horsepower, or length, or weight limit. A speed limit is less effective but will work.

The "rationale" along these lines for a speed limit it simple. Most owners of 1,700 HP boats will not choose a lake with a 45 mph speed limit to boat on. It is reported that the number of high horsepower boats on Lake George dropped dramatically after they enacted a speed limit.

I'm hoping the Capt. Boneheads will be the first to go, they NEED speed.

There is no simple way to stop drunks. There ARE simple ways to move him to another lake. Several high performance boaters have claimed they will leave if HB847 passes. I thank them for their honesty.

Is there anyone out there that thinks the number of high horsepower boats on the lake will not be effected by HB847?

Why does speed have to be the MAIN cause of the accident?

Capt Bonehead has a need for speed? What kind of smoke was in the air that you pulled that factoid from? The vast majority of Capt Boneheads are not going as fast as 45 m.p.h. or faster.

Bear Islander I have heard your solution argument before. Don't deal directly with the problem just ship them elsewhere. What do you do with drunk boaters just move them to a different place so they are someone elses problem. How did that solution work for the Catholic Church problem people. It hurt rather than helped people in the long run. Face the problem head on.

You believe that speed limits will make the lake some level of better for We the People. For us. It is easy to do. What about the public on the lakes where you are sending the law breaking drunk boaters? Do you not care about all US citizens equally?

The speed limit will effect law abiding people. The ones that will pull over for the cops. It will not do much for the renegades.

Taking the easy way out doen not always work. I was so for the speed limits until I really read over the messages on the forum and became convinced that more boat speed limit legislation is not the best solution for the public.

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

My question still stands. I have yet to see any proof which I simply asked for. I searched by your criteria and nothing came up. Why don't you just post a link and get it over with?

Was it a Cigarette or a Baja? You say Cigarette yet you have us searching for Baja. Did Baja even make a true performance boat in the 70's??? According to my searches Baja made their first boat in 1976 and the longest boat they made was a 19' with 170hp. Cigarette did make a limited production of boats prior to 1975. Almost all were 28' and shorter, and even the 35-36' model was probably no more than a 60mph boat with the power they were equipped with standard.

I said it before and I'll say it again.... Don't hold your breath

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

In addition to the bolded points, I will just say that the Capt Boneheads come in all shapes and sizes, from a sea kayak to a bow rider to a GFBL.

The answers to your bolded comments are right in the text.

You are quite right about Boneheads coming in all sizes. The question is what kind of boat do you want to land on your home, a Cigarette or a sea kayak? If a sea kayak hits a dock at full speed it might scuff its bows. If a Cigarette hits a dock at full speed..... people die.

codeman671 · 04-24-2008, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If a Cigarette hits a dock at full speed..... people die.

If someone hits a dock at full speed in a 19' bowrider with less than 300hp people can die as well. If someone hit a dock at 40mph on a jet ski people can die as well.

Do you agree?

Island Lover · 04-24-2008, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Yeah thats it keep digging.... It's all you've got now because your credibility is now the joke of the forum..... Sorry but it's true.

Will you please try and make your posts less personal?

This forum was set aside with less restrictions. That doesn't mean you need to abuse that privilege.

DoTheMath · 04-24-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

As Skip points out, it's hard to stop a drunk. However a horsepower limit will "limit" the damage he can do.

The Cigarette accident in Gilford was talked about on the forum, including a post from the operators nephew. Do a search for 8/21/2003 to 8/28/2003. Look for "Baja gets air" and "Boat enters cottage - upside down.."

There is also a post there where I recommend a horsepower limit. It seems I didn't come up with this as part of a WinnFABS plot.

BZZZZT! Wrong answer - as I showed you before, a 20' boat with a 250 hp outboard that can do 80+ mph blows away your theory on the hp limit being a way to "slow down" the lake and limit any speed related accidents by limiting the hp!

And how about we look at ALL the accidents in the last 30 years that invloved drinking and boating - and how many of those were in performance boats where speed was a direct factor, and how many in non-performance boats - you know, anything but those big-bad "Cigarette" boats.

Again - people kill people - guns don't kill people!!! It's not the boat - it is the OPERATOR! A 22' bowrider at 45mph is just as dangerous with a drunk behind the wheel as any other boat on the water - including a kayak with a drunk operator!

Your not going to prevent car accidents by outlawing sports cars - just like you're not going to prevent accidents like you mentioned (back in 1975

) by getting "Cigarette" boats off the lake! Call a spade a spade - will ya, it's not the speed that bothers you - it's the boats! Don't hate the playa - hate the game!!

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

If someone hits a dock at full speed in a 19' bowrider with less than 300hp people can die as well. If someone hit a dock at 40mph on a jet ski people can die as well.

Do you agree?

Absolutely. And as the weight and speed of the boat increases so does the degree of damage and the death toll.

Do you agree?

codeman671 · 04-24-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Absolutely. And as the weight and speed of the boat increases so does the degree of damage and the death toll.

Do you agree?

Degree of damage to the boat and dock yes, death toll depends on other factors.

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

My question still stands. I have yet to see any proof which I simply asked for. I searched by your criteria and nothing came up. Why don't you just post a link and get it over with?

Was it a Cigarette or a Baja? You say Cigarette yet you have us searching for Baja. Did Baja even make a true performance boat in the 70's??? According to my searches Baja made their first boat in 1976 and the longest boat they made was a 19' with 170hp. Cigarette did make a limited production of boats prior to 1975. Almost all were 28' and shorter, and even the 35-36' model was probably no more than a 60mph boat with the power they were equipped with standard.

So the damage to the boat increases with speed but the damage to the people inside remains the same. I don't think so!

The links don't work as well in the old forum.

http://www.winnipesaukeeforum.com/ar...noframes;index

However I don't think that link takes you to where I came from. Give it a try.

(edit)

Sorry, it doesn't work. but if you fill in the dates on the seach page and select "All messages in the date range" it will take you there.

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 08:54 AM

Try this

http://www.winnipesaukeeforum.com/ar...mes;read=62784

The Baja was another accident that lead to the Cigarette accident.

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Absolutely. And as the weight and speed of the boat increases so does the degree of damage and the death toll.

Do you agree?

NO!

*****************

codeman671 · 04-24-2008, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

So the damage to the boat increases with speed but the damage to the people inside remains the same. I don't think so!

Maybe or maybe not. At a higher speed the boat may plow through the dock and end up on land, not killing anyone. There is no right or wrong answer, too many other factors come into play. A larger boat may not sustain critical damage and may remain largely intact, where as a small boat may be more likely to become a pile of rubble.

Found it, thanks.

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

Again - people kill people - guns don't kill people!!! It's not the boat - it is the OPERATOR! A 22' bowrider at 45mph is just as dangerous with a drunk behind the wheel as any other boat on the water - including a kayak with a drunk operator!

A 22' bowrider at 45mph is just as dangerous with a drunk behind the wheel as any other boat on the water - including a kayak with a drunk operator!

If you really believe that I suggest you enroll in a basic physics course, because you do not know how to Do The Math.

A kayak with a drunk operator, a 22' bowrider with a drunk operator, a 1,700 horsepower Nor-Tech with a drunk operator. They are all just as dangerous?

I really hope some Senators are reading this.

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Lover

Will you please try and make your posts less personal?

This forum was set aside with less restrictions. That doesn't mean you need to abuse that privilege.

Islander,

I am sorry if you think it is personal to state facts.

This person (I won't name names) uses an accident from 30 years ago without any details to back his claim that winni needs a Horsepower and Speed limit?? I mean come on are you kidding me. Actually the more I find out about this accident the more ridiculous it is that he used it as "fact" supporting his argument. How can ones credibility even be considered when they push garbage like that. It happened 30 YEARS AGO! If anything I can use it in my argument stating how SAFE the lake is. Here I'll do it... pretend you've never heard about the accident....... Guys, winni doesn't need speed limits or horsepower limits. Winni has a more than 30 year history of no fatalities due to boat on land collisions.

Sounds silly doesn't it? Any more silly than using it to prove we DO need limits. So this persons credibility shatters more and more as they kick and scream about this accident. Sorry Islander facts is facts.

codeman671 · 04-24-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Lover

Will you please try and make your posts less personal?

This forum was set aside with less restrictions. That doesn't mean you need to abuse that privilege.

I think that others have made personal comments, including BI. Why are you the ony one complaining??? Hazelnut and BI are not.

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 09:20 AM

Here chew on this one everyone

http://ossipeelake.org/news/2006/10/...-speed-limits/

Island Lover · 04-24-2008, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Winni has a more than 30 year history of no fatalities due to boat on land collisions.

There was one last summer that killed a teenager.

He did not bring up this accident, it was talked about in this thread for a day before he talked about it. I believe he is doing an excellent job of supporting his opinion against the majority in the forum. His posts are far less personal, and frankly silly, as yours. I am only asking that we raise the bar a little. I am not Islander.

The cigarete hit a dock, the teenager hit a piling, same difference to me.

codeman671 · 04-24-2008, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Lover

There was one last summer that killed a teenager.

Am I missing something? I recall an accident of a teenager on a PWC dying, but not ending up on land...??? Someone who had NO RIGHT being on that machine. Hardly any damage to the machine, I remember talk of a piling strike but definitely not ending up on land. Hardly any damage to the machine either...

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

I think that others have made personal comments, including BI. Why are you the ony one complaining??? Hazelnut and BI are not.

Let's make it official.

I am complaining.

Woodsy · 04-24-2008, 09:33 AM

BI..

If the best you can do to bolster your position is bring up an accident that occurred on Lake Winnipesaukee over 33 years ago... You are really, really reaching! In fact, that argument could be spun to show how safe the lake really is!

I ALMOST agree with you on one point... as weight and speed increase, the POTENTIAL for damage also increases. That is just simple physics. However, the POTENTIAL for an accident or death does not necessarily increase! In fact, if you looked at the annual NHMP or even the annual USCG Safety Reports, the opposite is true!! The slowest of watercraft, canoes & kayaks are far, far more deadly...

Lake Winnipesaukee is home to about maybe 5-6 boats that can top 100, and over the summer maybe 5-6 others may frequent the lake. While the visiting boats prob wouldn't boat here anymore, the owners of the local Hi-Po boats have vested interests in Lake Winnipesaukee and aren't going to leave the lake! They will trade them in for big cruisers... then what? Oh wait! You think that can be solved by a HP limit!

Do you honestly think the NH Legislature is going to enact any sort of HP Limit or Size Limit on Lake Winnipesaukee? Do you have any idea what that will do to the economy of the lake? The marinas? The businesses? The people that rely on those businesses for thier livelyhood? Good luck trying to get that passed on the state largest lake! The economy is tough enough as it is...

You have stated that the speed limit is about safety, yet you have no data to support your position. The WINNCRABS crowd dismisses the MP study as flawed, when in fact as far as UNFUNDED studies go, they did a pretty damm good job. WINNCRABS just didn't like the results! Ultimately, your goal is to rid YOUR lake of people you consider undesireable... What you don't like is thier ostentatious lifestyle, compared to what you consider your relatively low key lifestyle. However others might find your $200,000 6 minute spaceflight a bit ostentatious.

I suggest you move to Squam Lake, where they long ago enacted all types of snobbish rules to keep THIER lake to themselves! A speed limit that has NEVER been enforced, no boats with porta potties or cuddy cabins etc, etc. (I guess they want you to relieve yourself in the lake?) In fact until just a few years ago, there was NO PUBLIC ACCESS on Squam. The Squam Lake Assoc would purchase the properties the State proposed for use as a boat launch. It wasn't until the state threatened to take a VERY EXPENSIVE piece of property by emminent domain, that a compromise was reached for a small public launch!

Woodsy

codeman671 · 04-24-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Let's make it official.

I am complaining.

Then practice what you preach...

Move on.

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Let's make it official.

I am complaining.

Sorry if you feel that way... I'll try not to laugh anymore. But come on when you posted about that accident 30 years ago were you serious? And if you were didn't some small part of you twinge and say "this is a stretch?"

chipj29 · 04-24-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The answers to your bolded comments are right in the text.

You are quite right about Boneheads coming in all sizes. The question is what kind of boat do you want to land on your home, a Cigarette or a sea kayak? If a sea kayak hits a dock at full speed it might scuff its bows. If a Cigarette hits a dock at full speed..... people die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A 22' bowrider at 45mph is just as dangerous with a drunk behind the wheel as any other boat on the water - including a kayak with a drunk operator!

If you really believe that I suggest you enroll in a basic physics course, because you do not know how to Do The Math.

A kayak with a drunk operator, a 22' bowrider with a drunk operator, a 1,700 horsepower Nor-Tech with a drunk operator. They are all just as dangerous?

I really hope some Senators are reading this.

One night, I am out in 22' bowrider, with a 150 hp outboard, travelling along at a "safe" 25 mph in nice clear calm conditions. I have not had a single drink. I am maintaining proper watch. All of a sudden directly in my path is a canoe, with 2 naked people in it. Now tell me, who is more dangerous? Me or the canoer?

Methinks the canoers put ME in danger!

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

BI..

If the best you can do to bolster your position is bring up an accident that occurred on Lake Winnipesaukee over 33 years ago... You are really, really reaching! In fact, that argument could be spun to show how safe the lake really is!

I ALMOST agree with you on one point... as weight and speed increase, the POTENTIAL for damage also increases. That is just simple physics. However, the POTENTIAL for an accident or death does not necessarily increase! In fact, if you looked at the annual NHMP or even the annual USCG Safety Reports, the opposite is true!! The slowest of watercraft, canoes & kayaks are far, far more deadly...

Lake Winnipesaukee is home to about maybe 5-6 boats that can top 100, and over the summer maybe 5-6 others may frequent the lake. While the visiting boats prob wouldn't boat here anymore, the owners of the local Hi-Po boats have vested interests in Lake Winnipesaukee and aren't going to leave the lake! They will trade them in for big cruisers... then what? Oh wait! You think that can be solved by a HP limit!

Do you honestly think the NH Legislature is going to enact any sort of HP Limit or Size Limit on Lake Winnipesaukee? Do you have any idea what that will do to the economy of the lake? The marinas? The businesses? The people that rely on those businesses for thier livelyhood? Good luck trying to get that passed on the state largest lake! The economy is tough enough as it is...

You have stated that the speed limit is about safety, yet you have no data to support your position. The WINNCRABS crowd dismisses the MP study as flawed, when in fact as far as UNFUNDED studies go, they did a pretty damm good job. WINNCRABS just didn't like the results! Ultimately, your goal is to rid YOUR lake of people you consider undesireable... What you don't like is thier ostentatious lifestyle, compared to what you consider your relatively low key lifestyle. However others might find your $200,000 6 minute spaceflight a bit ostentatious.

I suggest you move to Squam Lake, where they long ago enacted all types of snobbish rules to keep THIER lake to themselves! A speed limit that has NEVER been enforced, no boats with porta potties or cuddy cabins etc, etc. (I guess they want you to relieve yourself in the lake?) In fact until just a few years ago, there was NO PUBLIC ACCESS on Squam. The Squam Lake Assoc would purchase the properties the State proposed for use as a boat launch. It wasn't until the state threatened to take a VERY EXPENSIVE piece of property by emminent domain, that a compromise was reached for a small public launch!

Woodsy

I respect your honesty. Obviously I disagree on many key points.

You suggest I move to Squam, I suggest that anyone that wants to operate high horsepower boats go to the Atlantic Ocean.

It is a shame that many responsible boaters like yourself will be harmed if HB847 becomes law. I regret that.

Silver Duck · 04-24-2008, 10:10 AM

Island Lover

Please belive me that this matter is highly personal and very emotional. At least to me (and apparently to several others), BI seems to be saying that we (and everybody else) can not be trusted to safely operate anything larger or faster than a low speed bowrider, so the type of boat that we favor must be driven off the lake.

I, for one, find his message to be extremely insulting.

Silver Duck

winnilaker · 04-24-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Humor to you I'm sure. Some readers may think its true.

Here's some humor. I have decided to give up on the fighting the speed limit and join Evenstar. I think all motorized boats should prohibited. Using the logic from BI, that 35 is safer than 45, etc. zero HAS to be the safest speed.

So I wrote a letter to my rep and asked him to submit a bill next year to prohibit motorized boats in Winni. Statistics CLEARLY show there are more accidents in slower/smallers boats than larger ones, so let's just get rid of all of them. Island folks, sorry, better start getting in shape to paddle your way to them. Evenstar can probably put you on a good training program.

I'm going to use the same lobbying plan that Winnfabs uses and APS. I'll paint the gory picture of how unsafe motorized boats are and show gory pictures of the massacres. Tell how people fell off bowriders and get killed by props while enjoying the lake.

Then, I'll personally pay ARG (American Research Group) to conduct a survey, here are my questions?

Would Winnipesaukee be safer if motorized boats were not allowed?

Would you feel safe in a kayak if no motorized boats were around?

Etc.
Etc.

Then I'll pull in the Sail boats clubs to join my fight and have them recount ALL their horror stories of close calls with those pesky motorized boats.

Seriously, what rep wouldn't want to side with me? The stories, the stats, the survey, the associations are all on my side. It's a no brainer.

Now from my waterfront home, I can sit on my beach and have a conversation with my neighbor across the bay. What a perfect world. I'm sold.

DoTheMath · 04-24-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A 22' bowrider at 45mph is just as dangerous with a drunk behind the wheel as any other boat on the water - including a kayak with a drunk operator!

If you really believe that I suggest you enroll in a basic physics course, because you do not know how to Do The Math.

A kayak with a drunk operator, a 22' bowrider with a drunk operator, a 1,700 horsepower Nor-Tech with a drunk operator. They are all just as dangerous?

I really hope some Senators are reading this.

I hope they are too! And yes, I stand by that statement and my math is just fine - as is my physics comprehension! I am not looking to split hairs and discuss semantics here, I am simply stating that a drunk behind the wheel (or paddle) of ANY BOAT is dangerous and has the POTENTIAL to kill. I'm not looking to discuss the whole E=MC2 or how weight has an effect on impact with varying speeds, or why you think a Nor-Tech (amazingly well built and performing boat, BTW) with 1,700hp is "extra dangerous" or whatever...

Just admit it - you hate the player, not the game!! You hate the "big-bad" performance boats - for whatever twisted reason you have come up with in your head - and want to run them out of town...

Do you know Acres Per Second by chance?

SIKSUKR · 04-24-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The drunk operator would not have hit that house if he was boating elsewhere. A speed limit may cause him to boat elsewhere. A horsepower limit certainly would.

This is a major point you guys keep missing.

Nice try.HE OWNED A HOUSE ON THE LAKE.Please tell me what part of him being drunk and having a speed limit would have changed that situation.I can't even believe what I'm reading here.

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

Island Lover

Please belive me that this matter is highly personal and very emotional. At least to me (and apparently to several others), BI seems to be saying that we (and everybody else) can not be trusted to safely operate anything larger or faster than a low speed bowrider, so the type of boat that we favor must be driven off the lake.

I, for one, find his message to be extremely insulting.

Silver Duck

I'm sorry you fell that way. I am not talking about you or any of the other responsible boaters on Winni. Unfortunately there is no way practical way to control the irresponsible boater except things like speed limits or horsepower limits.

Plus I do believe that in the long run we must lower the environmental impact of boating on the lake. I fell the only practical way to do that is a horsepower limit. I think these limits will come one day, probably not soon, but they will come. I hope there is a way to lessen the impact they will have on the responsible boaters that are already here.

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Nice try.HE OWNED A HOUSE ON THE LAKE.Please tell me what part of him being drunk and having a speed limit would have changed that situation.I can't even believe what I'm reading here.

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

chmeeee · 04-24-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

*shouting*
Horsepower Limit!

The only one talking about a horsepower limit here is you. We are talking about a speed limit.

How is a speed limit going to drive these people away, when most of them live on or near the lake?

Does a speed limit stop people from owning and driving a fast car? The base Corvette has a top speed of 186 miles per hour. Thats a fairly popular car in New Hampshire, where the highest speed limit is 65 mph, or 34% of the Corvette's max speed.

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

I find this post offensive and rude in nature.

I am officially registering my complaint now.

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Sorry if you feel that way... I'll try not to laugh anymore. But come on when you posted about that accident 30 years ago were you serious? And if you were didn't some small part of you twinge and say "this is a stretch?"

SIKSUKR posted about that accident in post #615 (before I posted about it). He wanted to know how a speed limit could have changed the outcome of that accident. So you see, I did not bring it up. SIKSUKR knew he was talking about a REAL accident. He was one of the people that provided information on the operator to the forum back in August 2003.

I responded in post #616 that if a horsepower limit were in place it would have prevented the accident.

In post #617 you went all haywire.

I tried to explain to you in subsequent posts that we were talking about a REAL accident that happen on Winni, but you were to buzzy hitting the

key to pay attention.

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

SIKSUKR posted about that accident in post #615 (before I posted about it). He wanted to know how a speed limit could have changed the outcome of that accident. So you see, I did not bring it up. SIKSUKR knew he was talking about a REAL accident. He was one of the people that provided information on the operator to the forum back in August 2003.

I responded in post #616 that if a horsepower limit were in place it would have prevented the accident.

In post #617 you went all haywire.

I tried to explain to you in subsequent posts that we were talking about a REAL accident that happen on Winni, but you were to buzzy hitting the

key.

Ok then do me a favor because you still haven't done this. GIVE US A NUMBER!!! What horsepower? 500? 400? 250? 10? Just name a number.

Woodsy · 04-24-2008, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Unfortunately there is no way practical way to control the irresponsible boater except things like speed limits or horsepower limits.

BI....

Thats not true... there is a VERY practical way to control the irresponsible boater. The same way they control the irresponsible car driver... Increased Police presence! Ask any LEO... lots of thier patrols involve "showing the flag" so to speak! Its truly amazing how people tend to obey the rules when there is a LEO around.

Speed limits, HP limits, Size limits mean nothing if the agency tasked with enforcing the rules is underfunded and/or understaffed! In order to get increased MP patrols, we need BETTER FUNDING FOR THE NHMP! NHMP is funded soley by boaters for boaters... I for one would support a modest increase in my registration fee if it went to directly funding the NHMP.

Woodsy

codeman671 · 04-24-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Ok then do me a favor because you still haven't done this. GIVE US A NUMBER!!! What horsepower? 500? 400? 250? 10? Just name a number.

If you are asking what his proposed HP limit is, it has been posted many times. Over 300hp on boat model year 2008 and newer are to be banned.

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

BI....

Thats not true... there is a VERY practical way to control the irresponsible boater. The same way they control the irresponsible car driver... Increased Police presence! Ask any LEO... lots of thier patrols involve "showing the flag" so to speak! Its truly amazing how people tend to obey the rules when there is a LEO around.

Speed limits, HP limits, Size limits mean nothing if the agency tasked with enforcing the rules is underfunded and/or understaffed! In order to get increased MP patrols, we need BETTER FUNDING FOR THE NHMP! NHMP is funded soley by boaters for boaters... I for one would support a modest increase in my registration fee if it went to directly funding the NHMP.

Woodsy

I agree!

I support increased funding for the Marine Patrol. However I do not believe it will happen. Skip posted about this a while back, and in his opinion (worth a lot more than mine) it wasn't going to happen.

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

If you are asking what his proposed HP limit is, it has been posted many times. Over 300hp on boat model year 2008 and newer are to be banned.

So is he trying to sell us on the idea that a 250hp boat is incapable of causing bodily injury or death?

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

So is he trying to sell us on the idea that a 250hp boat is incapable of causing bodily injury or death?

Your missing the point, I own a 280 HP boat.

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 11:02 AM

AHA! My boats 300hp though.... its a runabout that only does 49. Am I banned?

Bear Islander · 04-24-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

AHA! My boats 300hp though.... its a runabout that only does 49. Am I banned?

Your OK, it's the boats OVER 300 HP that are evil.

hazelnut · 04-24-2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Your OK, it's the boats OVER 300 HP that are evil.

Phew!!! As for winnilaker.... I aint paddlin to the island!!!

04-22-2008, 10:13 AM	#612
DoTheMath Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: MA / Moultonborough Posts: 146 Thanks: 46 Thanked 43 Times in 18 Posts	Give it up APS... really... just throw in the towel. Acres Per Second - you're DONE! You have taken information from another post and put it up here in this one in hopes to gain some traction on your unfounded rants. Reason why you skipped out on that other thread!? Forget it, you have ZERO credibility with me and most others on this site that read your basic, factless, thinly veiled propaganda. So, you have never heard of Wharton!? Glad you got the most out of that Brewster Education you speak so highly of... http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/ Your little 10' home-built boat that sunk when you were 17 is all you have for "performance boat" experience, well that plus what you read in the latest issue of whatever boating magazine you were able to pick up in your dentists office during your semi-annual visits. I know all about types, construction, hydro-dynamics etc... don't need pictures to show me. And if you don't have the disposable income to buy, own, etc... a real "toy" then what are you basing your viewpoints on!? I don't have the disposable income to buy a private jet, but I'm sure not going to bash them or the owners that do, just because they do. Aside of that - don't EVER assume that you know me and that I have no "empathy" for anyone - I know the FACTS behind that accident that you posted the picture of and I know the people involved!! Maybe you can ask the kid in the sailboat that was sinking one day off Bear Island that I rescued, got his boat up on the beach and fixed for him what he thinks? Or maybe his folks - ask them... I bet they want to keel haul me for being so "unempathetic"!? As for the poor choice - I was referring to drinking then getting behind the wheel of a boat. Not that it matters but, been riding motorcycles since I was 9 years old, (I'm now 39) been on dirt, been on the street, been on the track, been over 140mph, I know all about speed, helmets and their usage - one saved my life one day - but thanks! So, you're that good that you can tell me - without being there, in the boat - that the other boat "appears" to be a 1/2 mile away from us!?!? Hmmm - give me the mathematical formula you used for that please. And I asked you about organized poker runs - not what you are assimilating to be a busy weekend that somehow you feel is a poker run. BTW, that picture you posted of the two boats passing the bass boat, do you (really) know how fast they were going? Do you (really) know how far away from each other they were? Did you pull out your fancy abacus / slide rule or whatever you used for the guess on my Delta distance to figure it out!? They could be just violating the 150' safe passage law, couldn't they!? Something I have seen 100x in a week by jet skis, bowriders and the like... again, thin at best. I can make a car accident look like it was the fault of the driver, the driver of the other car, the squirrel that ran into the road, the radio - take your pick! Again, boating accidents happen - car accidents happen - planes crash - trains derail... Look at the facts and tell me what you know from first-hand experience and JUST THE FACTS! Don't spin 'em, skew 'em and twist 'em all up to make it seem like you know what you are talking about, or what you refer to is reality. Seriously - please go back and read what you have been posting... you are sounding more and more like you are making this stuff up. It's not even fun anymore to debate these issues with you. It's like sitting in a room and watching Warren Buffett (you know who he is right, it's not the singer that is famous for Margaritaville ) and Jessica Simpson discuss the nuances of investment in domestic textile industries! You keep digging and digging and getting less dirt on your shovel!

04-24-2008, 05:02 AM	#652
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	Do people simply "obey" the law? Since the conversation here has turned much to the topic of impaired operation I thought that this article is extremely relevant. Some honestly believe that the simple implementation of a rule or regulation will be followed with blind obedience by the great majority of those affected by such change. What this study shows, as many of us in law enforcement have dealt with on a daily basis for decades, is the simple fact that drunk driving kills and maims thousands each year and all the laws in society have not been enough of an effective deterrent to stem the flow of blood. Anyway, the story about this particular study is very sobering, to say the least.

04-24-2008, 09:33 AM	#678
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,965 Thanks: 80 Thanked 979 Times in 440 Posts	BI.. If the best you can do to bolster your position is bring up an accident that occurred on Lake Winnipesaukee over 33 years ago... You are really, really reaching! In fact, that argument could be spun to show how safe the lake really is! I ALMOST agree with you on one point... as weight and speed increase, the POTENTIAL for damage also increases. That is just simple physics. However, the POTENTIAL for an accident or death does not necessarily increase! In fact, if you looked at the annual NHMP or even the annual USCG Safety Reports, the opposite is true!! The slowest of watercraft, canoes & kayaks are far, far more deadly... Lake Winnipesaukee is home to about maybe 5-6 boats that can top 100, and over the summer maybe 5-6 others may frequent the lake. While the visiting boats prob wouldn't boat here anymore, the owners of the local Hi-Po boats have vested interests in Lake Winnipesaukee and aren't going to leave the lake! They will trade them in for big cruisers... then what? Oh wait! You think that can be solved by a HP limit! Do you honestly think the NH Legislature is going to enact any sort of HP Limit or Size Limit on Lake Winnipesaukee? Do you have any idea what that will do to the economy of the lake? The marinas? The businesses? The people that rely on those businesses for thier livelyhood? Good luck trying to get that passed on the state largest lake! The economy is tough enough as it is... You have stated that the speed limit is about safety, yet you have no data to support your position. The WINNCRABS crowd dismisses the MP study as flawed, when in fact as far as UNFUNDED studies go, they did a pretty damm good job. WINNCRABS just didn't like the results! Ultimately, your goal is to rid YOUR lake of people you consider undesireable... What you don't like is thier ostentatious lifestyle, compared to what you consider your relatively low key lifestyle. However others might find your $200,000 6 minute spaceflight a bit ostentatious. I suggest you move to Squam Lake, where they long ago enacted all types of snobbish rules to keep THIER lake to themselves! A speed limit that has NEVER been enforced, no boats with porta potties or cuddy cabins etc, etc. (I guess they want you to relieve yourself in the lake?) In fact until just a few years ago, there was NO PUBLIC ACCESS on Squam. The Squam Lake Assoc would purchase the properties the State proposed for use as a boat launch. It wasn't until the state threatened to take a VERY EXPENSIVE piece of property by emminent domain, that a compromise was reached for a small public launch! Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

04-22-2008, 08:44 AM	#609
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	APS? Your constant incoherent rants are doing nothing for your case. Your pictures show nothing and prove nothing. A picture of a do not block driveway sign Your claims of 3 people dying? Show me the evidence? Still waiting for proof of that one. So you want to have your cake AND eat it too. Whether or not people knew about the speed zones it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the majority of boaters DON'T regularly exceed 45mph. I am on the lake ALL SUMMER just about every day. I can tell you that this ridiculous thought that hundreds of boats are speeding around just isn't true!!! You can say it over and over it doesn't make it any more factual. How much are you even on the lake? So whatever you think about the data doesn't mean much to me. A smart person can look at the data and then compare that with what they actually witness on a daily basis and concur that speed is not the problem.

04-22-2008, 09:16 AM	#611
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	On first reading I knew you must have in mind a different meaning for "sock puppet", so I looked it up on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29

04-23-2008, 04:35 PM	#630
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Can someone post a link to any information on this three head decapitation? It's not that I don't beleive it but wow that's one heck of an accident.

04-23-2008, 10:02 PM	#649
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	BI how can you possibly have any idea how many horsepower that boat had 30 years ago? You can't even they me what year it occurred but you know it had more than 300 hp. You don't even know what kind of boat it was. I'm not calling you a liar, but I think you basing a lot of facts on stories passed down from friends. I also thought people wanted to make the lake safer, like it was twenty to thirty years ago. Sounds pretty dangerous with people getting decapitated all the time. Since no one has been decapitated lately (30 years) maybe we have made the lake safer now.

04-23-2008, 10:39 PM	#650
EricP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 329 Thanks: 28 Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts	It absolutely amazes me that BI can keep this going. Wanting a law for every potential things that could possibly go wrong is absolutely ridiculous. I seriously think he needs to move to a mountain top somewhere far away from society because he doesn't appear to want to be a part of it unless it is only on his terms. We don't need people like that in our society. I read these posts and shake my head the whole time. Kinda makes the forums that much less enjoyable. Very childish.

04-24-2008, 06:30 AM	#653
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	As Skip points out, it's hard to stop a drunk. However a horsepower limit will "limit" the damage he can do. The Cigarette accident in Gilford was talked about on the forum, including a post from the operators nephew. Do a search for 8/21/2003 to 8/28/2003. Look for "Baja gets air" and "Boat enters cottage - upside down.." There is also a post there where I recommend a horsepower limit. It seems I didn't come up with this as part of a WinnFABS plot.

04-24-2008, 06:47 AM	#654
chipj29 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bow Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 521 Thanked 308 Times in 162 Posts	OK so a person in a certain style boat "could" go fast, and "could" crash the boat into a cottage. So that is the rationale (at least part of it) for a speed limit. OK so in my car, I "could" go fast, and "could" crash my car into a house. But since there is a speed limit, there is no chance of that? My point is this: Lots of things "could" happen, with or without a speed limit. Accidents happen at ALL speeds, and they involve ALL types of boats. You simply cannot prevent them all. Since there have been zero reported accidents in the last few years where speed over 45/25 have been cited as the MAIN cause of the accident, then the speed limit law will not make the lake safer.

04-24-2008, 07:37 AM	#656
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	BI, Why should I bother posting you are your own worst enemy. The more you post the deeper it gets in here. Hysterical.... By the way my favorite quote so far... "I don't know the speed but obviously it was moving pretty good." Hysterical. Lets pass a law based on this accident coupled with your statement.

04-24-2008, 08:54 AM	#668
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Try this http://www.winnipesaukeeforum.com/ar...mes;read=62784 The Baja was another accident that lead to the Cigarette accident.

04-24-2008, 09:20 AM	#674
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Here chew on this one everyone http://ossipeelake.org/news/2006/10/...-speed-limits/

04-24-2008, 10:10 AM	#683
Silver Duck Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica, MA Posts: 364 Thanks: 40 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Island Lover Please belive me that this matter is highly personal and very emotional. At least to me (and apparently to several others), BI seems to be saying that we (and everybody else) can not be trusted to safely operate anything larger or faster than a low speed bowrider, so the type of boat that we favor must be driven off the lake. I, for one, find his message to be extremely insulting. Silver Duck

04-24-2008, 11:02 AM	#698
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	AHA! My boats 300hp though.... its a runabout that only does 49. Am I banned?