One way or the other

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

More importantly a law that has a "Perceived Effect." This is my biggest problem with the law and the supporters of the law. They use terms like the lake is quieter, and less busy, and safer in their arguments for a Speed Limit. I am sorry but Laws are enacted to curb a specific problem. This law has supporters because of the PERCEIVED side effects. That is ridiculous in my opinion. 1 ticket? No statistics? Just hearsay. If this were a courtroom it would be thrown out before the jury had a chance to hear the case.

Just my humble opinion

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

Quantum leap? Why don't you lie down on the couch and tell the doctor all about it.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

It's no wonder people like you don't want the sunset provision to wait for the data. Next year will kill you. Boat sales are already higher, used prices have climbed. I think you're enjoying the best of your solitude.

Come over here where it's almost always quiet, the fish are bigger, and the wind is better.

People on this forum know the statistics just fine. The trouble is with you, you're scared of the stats. You know tht between this year and next you'll be proven wrong, again. You also know that there's a real movement to help the MP get the boneheads off the lake or better trained.

People have come a long way since Littlefield, but obviously, not all. Don't be a knuckle dragger all your life, help out for a good cause.

Signed

A Good Samaritan

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper).

Hummm, unemployment at record high levels, gasoline at $3.00 gal on the water, worst summer weather in years, ya I would guess is a bit quieter,,,

Personally the only time I ever see any significant amount of high speed traffic (over 45 MPH) on the lake is Saturdays at the peak of the season and when the weather is very good. And if I'm not in the mood to deal with it, "I" stay home. I dont run out to rally a group of knuckleheads to support my cause to pass a law to outlaw whatever annoys me on any particular day.

I guess the other part of my problem with the whole speed limit issue is that I don’t automatically associate speed (over 45 MPH) with reckless operation.

There are days when the water is flat I can cruise the Merrimack River at 65 MPH and I have no issues with safety. There are other days when the wind is blowing that I have a tough ride on Winnipesaukee at 35 MPH.

Reckless operation has always been a problem everywhere there are boats and we already have regulations that deal with it. And though it is a bit of a subjective call if someone is operating unsafely, in my mind so is the concept of universal safe speed limits.

Some boats and operators can cruise at 70 MPH without incident, others are unsafe at ANY speed.

I think anyone can make the call that passing an anchored boat at "close distance" (say 50 feet) at 70 MPH is reckless operation, but what is a safe speed for all boats and operators under all conditions, well thats not so easy to define without illegitimately curtailing our freedoms.

Who among us is a legitimate expert in small powerboat marine safety??? I’m guessing no one,,,

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

There are days when the water is flat I can cruise the Merrimack River at 65 MPH and I have no issues with safety. There are other days when the wind is blowing that I have a tough ride on Winnipesaukee at 35 MPH.

And there are some nights when I can safely do 110 MPH on Rt. 95 (but I don't and I'm glad that for the most part neither do others).

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

And there are some nights when I can safely do 110 MPH on Rt. 95 (but I don't and I'm glad that for the most part neither do others).

I fully agree, but the 65 mph speed limit on Rt 95 does nothing to make the road safer, the roadway is safe because people operate safely.

I would similarly argue that the people who drive 45 mph on Rt 95 present as much of a threat as the ones who drive 110 mph, the issue is not any specific number, its reasonableness of the speed for the location, situation, and conditions. And I think thats even more the case for boats where you dont have specific striped lanes and other very detailed nav aids.

So again I would argue, speed limits do not ensure safety, safe operation is the key to success and no law can absolutely ensure either adherence to a speed limit or that any individual will operate safely.

At some level we all have to assume some risk in the use of boats, cars, hell just walking across the street can be risky. Life has risks, but piling law after law that restrict the many, in the name of appeasing the few rarely accomplishes anything except to further clog the legal system and deprive the citizens of their freedom.

Well that’s one persons opinion,,,

But then what do I know, I have "only" been accident and ticket free on the water for 45+ years,,,

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

I think you missed typed and either meant to shorten the 150' legal distance or maybe you are trying to suggest that you prefer to get back to nature with nothing but peace and quiet. Either way the lake is not a reserved haven for exclusive use of the few. It is one of the states greatest assets that attracts many from diverse cultural, economic, and view point differences. We are not trying not to judge how ones personal preference is better than anothers.

The lake being so large is unique since it can support such a vast array of sporting activities. Divers get a chance to test deep water, Sailers can let loose for long blows(can you tell I am not a sailer?), fishing for those that choose can be thrilling, and the surrounding towns have embraced all and encourage tourism. I don't see how we can allow a restrictive law exist that intends to eliminate a certain class of sportsman. I do not believe it is appropriate for our state to do this for this huge public resource. Safety is an issue, noise is already governed, and fear is controllable.

I believe this thread was an attempt to eliminate the statistical twisting that some of the previous surveys encountered. Should the speed limit stay or go? I do not believe it does any good so get rid of it. My opinion only.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

I think you have "statistics" confused with poll results in this context. The statistics that others are referring to is the fact that there is no evidence of a speed problem on the lake, it is a perceived problem. How can I say this? Well, one statistic in particular shows that there has not been a single death on the lake that was directly caused by a high speed. Another statistic based on data gathered by the MP during the test period also led MP to conclude that speed was not a problem on the lake.

And to the bolded above, it may not be a "perceived" side effect, but it certainly could be a side effect of a speed limit. But you don't know that. One could argue that that particular side effect isn't even a side effect at all...it was one of the primary goals of implementing the speed limit.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

While I see your premise to your arguement, however this is where your position goes off the rails.

1. the lake is quieter due to the economy nothing more. There have been story after story on WMUR that people have not see vacancy's like this in years and tourism is at one if its all time lows. Marinas have had terrible sales figures and resturants are also feeling the pinch. Showing that it is quieter not due to limits but lack of people of all boating types.

2. The winnfabs pushed for the speed limit test zones and were disappointed in the results. The MP stated on the floor of the House that the test zone data proved (as they had said all along) there is not a speeding problem on our big lake. It is lack of education and adherence to existing rules.

The winnfabs again argued that the reason there was little to no speeding was because the GFB just avoided the test zones. Now whether that was a ploy or not is irrelevant.

They then argued that if the "entire lake" had limits then we would see an entirely different set of statistial results (because GFB would have no where to hide).

Well now that still hasn't happened. And if you read back on threads even before the test zones it was said that what supporters would do, as soon as the data showed speeding was not a problem, is they would jump on their soap box and state: "Hey look how well they are working"

That may be your opinion and that is perfectly fine. However it was not the intention or the arguement made for the 2 year test period by the people that pushed for them.

The arguement was: Put them into effect and see how many we catch to make the lake safer. NOT, put them in effect and no one will speed.

So although you may "feel" safer, the reasoning of the supporters (winnfabs) has been proven wrong.

My personal opinion is that they had no intention of trying to prove anything with any data and either way they were going to push for 'permanent' limits.

Lets just hope that the Legislature can take of their blind folds and see this progression for themselves.

[Turtle Boy]

As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.

So you also think then that the accumulation of data was a ploy then and part of their agenda?

Also, you don't feel the economy has nothing to do with the lack of boats on the lake?

Just wondering your opinion.

[pm203]

The bottom line for me is that of all of the high performance boats I know of, none have left the lake, and none are doing anything differently. So, how can the lake be any quieter? In fact, I have noticed some additional HP boats on the lake this year. The Marine Patrol has always stated that speed was never an issue. The issue is a very small group of selfish, self-centered individuals trying to avenge the death of their friend. And, what's worse, maybe using this tragedy not to avenge, but for their own personal benefit to get what they really want, another Golden Pond and the lake to themselves.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by pm203

The bottom line for me is that of all of the high performance boats I know of, none have left the lake, and none are doing anything differently. So, how can the lake be any quieter?

If none of the owner's of the GFBL's that you know are doing anything differently, yet he sees a huge difference this year in GFBL behavior, then maybe the issue is that your friends are behaving more badly (read "breaking the law") than the average GFBL owner. As El said, wouldn't it be nice if all of us could pick and choose which laws to obey. This is why Speed Limits will be here to stay. As far as a small group wanting the lake to themselves, you're as welcome as anyone else...and the compromise of 45/25 allows you to go very fast still (though I don't understand all the grumbling about the SL if the SL hasn't changed yours or your friends behavior one bit).

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

(though I don't understand all the grumbling about the SL if the SL hasn't changed yours or your friends behavior one bit).

Funny, How it changes your behavior....................................

[MeEscape]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.

Just for the record, the Dow Jones Index didn’t drop until October 2008, after most boats were out of the water, unemployment was in the low 6’s through November (it is now at 9.5), there was not a recognized faltering economy during the 2008 boating season in New Hampshire.

People who can spend six figures plus for GFBL’s are not affected by fluctuations in the price of gasoline which causes them to pay maybe a couple of [hundred] bucks more for a fill up, they are effected by a seven figure hit to their portfolios or a lost job.

Proof of this is the price of boats, new and used, fell in the September/October 2008 time frame, after the market fell and at the time gas prices were also falling.

There are fewer boats on the lake this year because toys tend to be sold off before people give up their homes.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

Am I mistaken or does Turtle Boy consistently drag my personal life, my job into the debate.

Because my grasp on the polling data or the statistics differs from your opinion does not make you the least bit correct. Nor does my profession have any validity in this discussion. What is it that you do for a living and how does it affect this debate?

I'm trying Don... Really I am....

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I'm trying Don... Really I am....

Sounds like Hazelnut got taken out to the woodshed (and I don't mean the restaurant in Moultonboro).

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Sounds like Hazelnut got taken out to the woodshed (and I don't mean the restaurant in Moultonboro).

Actually NO! Again TB you are wrong. I reached out to Don as a good faith effort last week. He and I had a very nice chat about some of the tactics used by BOTH sides on this board. I told him that I would do my best to keep the conversation positive and avoid the traps and misdirections by certain members of this forum. We agreed that both sides needed to stick to the facts and avoid personal attacks. Again after very very long detailed messages and conversation with Don I sympathized with the monumental task Don has wading through all the B.S.

My quote that you misrepresented was directed to show Don that certain members (you) are using snippy personal attacks. So as I mentioned in a post earlier that I would work to keep on topic. Your comments are making it VERY hard to do TB.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Sounds like Hazelnut got taken out to the woodshed (and I don't mean the restaurant in Moultonboro).

Don't drag the woodshed into your post, even if it is supposed to be sarcastic. not kidding.

[OCDACTIVE]

Alot of votes have been cast.... Hard to argue with that.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Alot of votes have been cast.... Hard to argue with that.

Oh OCD silly man. Those votes were all cast by people who we recruited from other sites such as OSO. No to mention that they were cast by scofflaws. Each vote was cast by a GFBL boat owner with an agenda. Haven't you heard. Keep this in mind too, www.winnipesaukee.com is a GFBL site that only has readers and posters who own 100MPH GFBL boats. So the poll is null and void.

I think that about covers the replies that should be coming in 5..4..3..2..

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Oh OCD silly man. Those votes were all cast by people who we recruited from other sites such as OSO. No to mention that they were cast by scofflaws. Each vote was cast by a GFBL boat owner with an agenda. Haven't you heard. Keep this in mind too, www.winnipesaukee.com is a GFBL site that only has readers and posters who own 100MPH GFBL boats. So the poll is null and void.

I think that about covers the replies that should be coming in 5..4..3..2..

Sounds like the teacher needs to go to this site so as to understand some of the basic principles of polling:
http://www.notrain-nogain.org/Train/Exer/Num/poll.asp
The forum's results differ significantly from a state poll and from,
say, certain road associations previously mentioned who unanimously voted to send money to Winnfabs.

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

the basic principles of polling:
http://www.notrain-nogain.org/Train/Exer/Num/poll.asp

The best lines here are "Self-selecting polls only report the results of people who cared one way or another to either call a particular number, reply by email or are willing to be interviewed in person in a public place (think of mall surveys). The results cannot be generalized beyond those who choose to answer." and "The results of random samples can be applied to a larger group because every person in the study group had an equal opportunity to be selected."

How appropriate to the present case were we have a small group conducting their own self-selecting polls and trying to generalize the results across the entire population, while at the same time trying to discredit a large scale broad based random poll properly conducted by a well known, legitimate, and unbiased polling expert, because those results do not suit their goals. Imagine them telling a legislator, "We polled ourselves and 60% of the GFBL crowd agrees that the SL should sunset, while the other 40% of us think the limits should just be raised."

[OCDACTIVE]

so I heard from a friend that they only have 6 radar guns that have been issued to the MP due to budget cut backs. But only 4 officers are currently trained to use them. Anyone know if that is true?

[Kracken]

I was at Channel Marine last weekend, very sad as there were a lot of people taking their boats out for the season. The disturbing part was many of them got for sale signs. I have never seen anything like it. Apparently many boaters are calling it quits. The economy seems to be taking its toll, although I am sure that will be debated as well.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

I was at Channel Marine last weekend, very sad as there were a lot of people taking their boats out for the season. The disturbing part was many of them got for sale signs. I have never seen anything like it. Apparently many boaters are calling it quits. The economy seems to be taking its toll, although I am sure that will be debated as well.

You should have Polled them..

I am hooking the boat up tomorrow for the 9 hour journey south.. On the way back hitting atlantic city.. want to go?

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

You should have Polled them..

I am hooking the boat up tomorrow for the 9 hour journey south.. On the way back hitting atlantic city.. want to go?

So how far south are you going? Nine hours from the lake puts you in Dover, Delaware at best....or worst in southern NJ. NB

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

So how far south are you going? Nine hours from the lake puts you in Dover, Delaware at best....or worst in southern NJ. NB

9 hours will put me in Richmond VA.. I hope.. :-)

Going a bit out of Richmond in a place called Charles City.. Maybe get a ride on a 37 AThunder with twin 525's..

[Lakepilot]

In 9 hours you won't be anywhere near Richmond. With luck, you'll be past Baltimore.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Lakepilot

In 9 hours you won't be anywhere near Richmond. With luck, you'll be past Baltimore.

Maybe we should place some bets...... Or better yet start a poll!! LOL

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

9 hours will put me in Richmond VA.. I hope.. :-)

Going a bit out of Richmond in a place called Charles City.. Maybe get a ride on a 37 AThunder with twin 525's..

Google maps says that is will take you 10hrs 15mins if you go I-95 S and 11hrs 25 mins if you go I-90 W
Therefore I think it will take you 10 hrs if you go I-95 S.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

Google maps says that is will take you 10hrs 15mins if you go I-95 S and 11hrs 25 mins if you go I-90 W
Therefore I think it will take you 10 hrs if you go I-95 S.

You are going on the assumption I am leaving from Moultonboro and that I drive the speed Limit

[jmen24]

Well, I put in Concord as you did not state where you were leaving from, but that does make a difference. You have to be honest with us OCD, otherwise this could get heated.

I also put in a faster than the speed limit assumption, but knowing how you feel about your boat I figured you would not be flying around on the side roads. I have a picture of you in my head crossing over the VA line with 30 min to go to deadline, boat fish tailing around corners to make in under the gun. Remember most trailer tires are not rated for speeds above 65, if you want to go faster you need to increase your tire pressure to help prevent a failure, that would really slow you down, but I will not hold something like that against your time, we will deduct for things like that.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by jmen24

Well, I put in Concord as you did not state where you were leaving from, but that does make a difference. You have to be honest with us OCD, otherwise this could get heated.

I also put in a faster than the speed limit assumption, but knowing how you feel about your boat I figured you would not be flying around on the side roads. I have a picture of you in my head crossing over the VA line with 30 min to go to deadline, boat fish tailing around corners to make in under the gun. Remember most trailer tires are not rated for speeds above 65, if you want to go faster you need to increase your tire pressure to help prevent a failure, that would really slow you down, but I will not hold something like that against your time, we will deduct for things like that.

It won't get heated unless you start a poll that doesn't go my way. Then I am going to call schnanagans..

You are right.... I won't be flying especially since I am towing... However the way home could be interesting.

Already pumped up the tires to the max... I am leaving around 3AM.. hoping to arrive by mid afternoon. I have a GPS but I am doing a AAA Trip Tix to make sure I don't end up in downtown Manhattan. Going around the city to avoid traffic. Gotta hand it to AAA. These trip tix reports are great..

Hitting Atlantic City on the way back to catch the Pats game. They should love me there in my Brady Jersey...

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

You are going on the assumption I am leaving from Moultonboro and that I drive the speed Limit

Even though I am betting against you, I would strongly suggest that you avoid going I-95 the whole way. It is a miserable road through CT without traffic, but you will be hitting the NYC area in the morning rush. I-84 is your friend.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Even though I am betting against you, I would strongly suggest that you avoid going I-95 the whole way. It is a miserable road through CT without traffic, but you will be hitting the NYC area in the morning rush. I-84 is your friend.

Truer words were never spoken.

I could beat you down there from here using that route OCD, been there, done that. I95 makes life miserable.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

You are going on the assumption I am leaving from Moultonboro and that I drive the speed Limit

Don't be a scofflaw!

[Kracken]

gtagrip,

I say OCD pulls it off.

I THINK he was joking about the speed limit, he is pulling a LARGE boat.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

so I heard from a friend that they only have 6 radar guns that have been issued to the MP due to budget cut backs. But only 4 officers are currently trained to use them. Anyone know if that is true?

In one of the SL hearings, one of the Winfabs 'fat cat' offered to donate money for radar guns. There is no evidence of that.

I do know that the marine patrol budget was cut and that buying laser guns and training of officers have limited the hirings. I will try to find the article in the Concord Monitor.

[BroadHopper]

I recently started using this for directions and find it pretty slick! Try it!

It calculated from Moultonboro, NH to Charles City, VA as a 693.3 mile trip in 10 hrs and 47 mins. That's my bet!

[Kracken]

Our Founding Fathers were brilliant in the design of this nation. They had the insight to set this country up as a nation of states. Each state would be independent and able to decide their own policies and laws based on its individual needs.

That same model SHOULD be used here. I would suggest that if you have people with little to no stake in the outcome they will vote either selfishly or out of ignorance. If the same people that were polled for their speed limit input were asked other questions like:

Should headlights be required at night? (Brilliant example Hazelnut)
Should boat registrations be tripled to help gap the budget deficit?
Should lakeshore property taxes be tripled?
Should all boats that produce greenhouse gasses be banned on inland waterways?

People with no stake in the lakes region would probably vote yes to all these questions. If you wanted to do a poll that gave an accurate barometer of the issues you would only ask the people who had a stake in the outcome. In this case the correct sample would be residents of the towns that boarder the lake and all registered boaters.

Somebody once said “Only tax payers should be able to vote”. While that comment seems outrageous at first glance, think about where we might be as a country if that was the reality.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Sounds like the teacher needs to go to this site so as to understand some of the basic principles of polling:
http://www.notrain-nogain.org/Train/Exer/Num/poll.asp
The forum's results differ significantly from a state poll and from,
say, certain road associations previously mentioned who unanimously voted to send money to Winnfabs.

Yet again calling my profession into the argument. Will you please stop? How many times do I have to ask? Could you just stop? Seriously?

Let me explain something in the simplest terms for you and elchase. This has been said over and over again on this forum. While I understand that you see no validity in any poll taken on this site I see even less validity on a statewide poll. The poll was taken statewide as you have said. Why the heck would we or anyone care what a resident of lets say Salem New Hampshire thinks about a speed limit on a lake they have never been to? Explain to me why those people should have ANY say on what recreation takes place on this lake?

Do you have any faith that if I created a poll restricting the uses of sailboats on the lake that the results would come back in your favor? Especially if the question was posed to non boaters who have never visited this lake? Do you understand that concept? Is it really that hard to understand? I am reasonably confident that I could create a question that could be posed to the general New Hampshire public that would result in showing that New Hampshire residents favor some sort of restrictions on sailboats.

Here is another example that may help you and elchase: Most non boaters that visit my camp are ABSOLUTELY BLOWN AWAY that I drive my boat at night without headlights! So tell me how hard would it be for me to create a poll that asks "Should all boats should be required to use headlights on the lake at night," and get results that favor headlight use on the lake?

Does that example make it more clear for you? I'm in teacher mode now.

So while you put stock in your statewide poll, I'll put stock in the poll answered by boaters who boat on the actual lake in question. While both polls have their flaws I'd rather see a Lake Winnipesaukee ONLY poll done by the Citizen or another paper. The first question should be do you or have you used Lake Winnipesaukee for recreational purposes. If the answer is no then it is an immediate disconnect.

Your constant mention of my profession in your comments is tiresome as I mentioned already. But I will consider this a teachable moment for you. Your understanding and interpretation of polls and polling is limited at best. Your faith in the statewide poll is confirmation of this fact.

Furthermore the polls on this site are of course not "official" in any sense of the word. I do understand that this is just an informal survey. My point is that I put just as much stock into this poll as you do in the statewide poll. At least I know that the replies on this site come from boaters. That is FAR more than I can say about the statewide poll.

[NoRegrets]

The polls are up to the honesty and integrety of everyone on the forum. I have faith in all. Those that choose to cheat the system are the handicaped low-life loosers. Anyone that takes devious actions to gain any point not only hurt all but will eventually eat away at their spiritual peace. There is no value in tryng to taint the results and cast suspiscion on the process. Let the polititions continue to lie and cheat us but let the boaters enjoy the sport as free as possible! Get back to the real statistics that are creating the problem and make sure the media starts to report solid facts that point out the b'head problems.

[Airwaves]

how hard would it be for me to create a poll that asks "Should all boats should be required to use headlights on the lake at night," and get results that favor headlight use on the lake?

I REALLY like that idea. I wish we had a statewide platform to do it just to prove the point!

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Yet again calling my profession into the argument. Will you please stop? How many times do I have to ask? Could you just stop? Seriously?
Let me explain something in the simplest terms for you and elchase.

Let me explain something in the simplest terms for you. Your profession tweaked the Turtle family's interest last year when you opined at length about the validity of forum polls. We were intrigued that someone(a teacher, no less) who spelled poll incorrectly (no, it's not spelled pole) felt so entitled to rant about whether a self poll on a boating forum might indeed have any significant validity. Since that time, the only progress you have made in this arena has been that you learned how to spell the word correctly.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Your constant mention of my profession in your comments is tiresome as I mentioned already.

Less entertaining than the poll/pole spelling difficulties is the following. We have all heard mention on this forum that perhaps there is a correlation between those who are dominating, intimidating, and rude on the forum and those who might act similarly on the lake. This kind of behavior from you directed at anyone who disagrees with your beliefs, whether it be me, EL, Evenstar (really nasty stuff you unleashed at her...you should be ashamed), or anyone else I suppose can be tolerated...we're adults and can look after ourselves. What concerns me is...well...do you treat your students in such a belittling manner? These kids might have no other choice than to endure such behavior. Kids are impressionable...what they see is sometimes what they imitate.
Finally I would add that your extreme dependence on those irritating laughing smiley faces to be able to express your thoughts seems odd (given your profession). It brings to mind the expression "Why can't Johnny read"?
So...this is why I have invoked your profession as being relevant to this discussion.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Maybe we should place some bets...... Or better yet start a poll!! LOL

I have driven to Atlanta several times from NH. Traveling at around 70 MPH, I have found that Richmond is almost always 12 hours away. Depends on time of day of course.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by chipj29

I have driven to Atlanta several times from NH. Traveling at around 70 MPH, I have found that Richmond is almost always 12 hours away. Depends on time of day of course.

Leaving at 3 AM.. hoping to make it thru NY early... Will have to see.. My buddy has done it 8 times in the past 3 years and normally he is 9 - 10... Will let you know..

I thought we were going to start a poll??? But of course it won't be valid if it doesn't go my way..

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

The polls are up to the honesty and integrety (sic) of everyone on the forum.

You mean the scofflaws who brag about ignoring and breaking our boating laws, or the cheerleaders who high-five them for it?

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Yet again calling my profession into the argument. Will you please stop? How many times do I have to ask? Could you just stop? Seriously?

You call others much much worse, and refuse to stop when they ask. You called me a liar (and never gave that promised apology). Why are you embarrassed by your profession? Teaching is a noble vocation. Wear the title with pride. It is your logic (and spelling) that you should be embarrassed about.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Why the heck would we or anyone care what a resident of lets (sic) say Salem New Hampshire thinks about a speed limit on a lake they have never been to? Explain to me why those people should have ANY say on what recreation takes place on this lake?

Simple, because Winnipesaukee is THEIR lake. Why do retired people go to town meetings to vote on the school budget? Why do landowners who don't hunt post their land? Why did Northerners object to slavery? People have a right (and duty) to opine about and take part in the management of the things in which they have a vested interest. And contrary to your opinion, a vested interest in a lake does not require a Boater's Certificate. Every citizen of NH is effected by the goings-on at Lake Winnipesaukee. If you cannot appreciate that, then you really may be in the wrong profession.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I am reasonably confident that I could create a question that could be posed to the general New Hampshire public that would result in showing that New Hampshire residents favor some sort of restrictions on sailboats.

There has already been one...the same ARG poll. It applies equally to ALL boats. The Lake's owners favor (by 83% to 9%, with a +/-3% margin of error), that sail boats cannot go over 45MPH. I respect and abide by that. If polled, I'm sure that NH's residents would probably be near unanimous in support of our existing inclusion of sailors in our DUI law. And I respect and abide by that. I have no problem with reasonable limits on sailing, and I accept what society decides those reasonable limits should be. I would not want to be out their doing something that offends or endangers the rest of society. Maybe that's just me. And I recognize that "society" in NH includes ALL of NH's citizens, even if they live in Salem. What you want is akin to polling NAMBLA and asking if it is ok to sleep with little boys, and saying, "Why the heck would we or anyone care what a heterosexual woman thinks about man-boy love?

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Most non boaters that visit my camp are ABSOLUTELY BLOWN AWAY that I drive my boat at night without headlights!

If 83% of Winnipesaukee's owners wanted boats to have headlights at night, I would be the first to have headlights installed, even if the law did not require. But maybe that's just me. I prefer to fit into society rather than buck it. But based on the posts we see in these Anti-Speed Limit threads, even if the law was changed to require headlights, many of you would be driving around with your headlights shut-off, for no reason except to buck society, and bragging about it on this forum, and the rest would be high-fiving you. Then when one of you killed someone or drove aground, you'd excuse it because he was drunk.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

So while you put stock in your statewide poll, I'll put stock in the poll answered by boaters

It has nothing to do with "stock". It is purely statistics. I can't believe a teacher, of all people, cannot understand statistics. Do you skip over the evolution chapters in your science books and give your kids hand-outs about intelligent design too?

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Your understanding and interpretation of polls and polling is limited at best. Your faith in the statewide poll is confirmation of this fact.

Wow. This one is going in the Whacky Post HOF. Now I'm really glad I sent my kids to private school.

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Would you support some form of additional tax or fee to support the Marine Patrol in efforts specifically targeted to stop BUI and obvious dangerous violations on the water?

I think the fines from DUI, speed limit, and other boating law violations should be given back directly to the MP. At the present, some guy in Salem who has never even boated on Lake Winnipesaukee is helping to pay for our MP enforcement (as he should, since he is an equal owner of the lake), but it is always fairer to society when the violators of our laws are forced to pay for law enforcement, IMO. It inspires law enforcement to do their jobs, and it reduces taxes (statewide).

[OCDACTIVE]

so anyone taking bets on the driving time?

[hazelnut]

The last two posts by Turtleboy and elchase do nothing but further my points. The ironic part is that they are patting themselves on the back for well thought out informative posts. The reality is that both of you come off less and less intelligent with each post and as usual regress to snippiness and personal attacks. You have no new information and your interpretation of the old information is comical. The headlight analogy was used puposefully as a ludicrous example. The fact that you would consider the adoption of the use of headlights IF a law was passed further proves your limited knowledge of boating as a whole. The fact that you don't understand that headlight use at night would pose a significant safety hazzard perplexes me. The sole reason I used the example. To me it immediately discredits any opinion you may have related to boating.

Thanks for doing nothing but proving my points over and over again.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Let me explain something in the simplest terms for you. Your profession tweaked the Turtle family's interest last year when you opined at length about the validity of forum polls. We were intrigued that someone(a teacher, no less) who spelled poll incorrectly (no, it's not spelled pole) felt so entitled to rant about whether a self poll on a boating forum might indeed have any significant validity. Since that time, the only progress you have made in this arena has been that you learned how to spell the word correctly.



Less entertaining than the poll/pole spelling difficulties is the following. We have all heard mention on this forum that perhaps there is a correlation between those who are dominating, intimidating, and rude on the forum and those who might act similarly on the lake. This kind of behavior from you directed at anyone who disagrees with your beliefs, whether it be me, EL, Evenstar (really nasty stuff you unleashed at her...you should be ashamed), or anyone else I suppose can be tolerated...we're adults and can look after ourselves. What concerns me is...well...do you treat your students in such a belittling manner? These kids might have no other choice than to endure such behavior. Kids are impressionable...what they see is sometimes what they imitate.
Finally I would add that your extreme dependence on those irritating laughing smiley faces to be able to express your thoughts seems odd (given your profession). It brings to mind the expression "Why can't Johnny read"?
So...this is why I have invoked your profession as being relevant to this discussion.

As a part time college professor and business statistic was my profession for 40 years, I beg to differ.................

Sorry, but I must add validity to our profession.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

. This kind of behavior from you directed at anyone who disagrees with your beliefs, whether it be me, EL, Evenstar (really nasty stuff you unleashed at her...you should be ashamed), or anyone else I suppose can be tolerated...we're adults and can look after ourselves. What concerns me is...well...do you treat your students in such a belittling manner? These kids might have no other choice than to endure such behavior. Kids are impressionable...what they see is sometimes what they imitate.
Finally I would add that your extreme dependence on those irritating laughing smiley faces to be able to express your thoughts seems odd (given your profession). It brings to mind the expression "Why can't Johnny read"?
So...this is why I have invoked your profession as being relevant to this discussion.

You can not just state something and wish it to be true. I unleashed NOTHING nasty on anyone on here ever. Go ahead and prove it. I said nothing on here to anyone at any time that wasn't said directly at me.

Again you call in to the argument how I do my job. It has no relevance on this forum. I am filing a formal complaint to the moderator as we speak. Constantly calling my job into the argument while questioning my intelligence crosses the line I'm afraid.

Here are a few smiley faces for you TB: I use them to show emotion. They are called emoticons. Look it up. Uusually used to show how I am feeling when I type the message. For example the smiley face: Usually shows that I am happy and having fun while I type. Like this:

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

so anyone taking bets on the driving time?

OCD, I am going to jump in the fray and take your bet, because you will be hitting NJ at 7:00am and you will lose that additional half hour putting you over 10 hours.

If I am right I would like a ride in that scary GFBL you have (I will hopefully be docked accross from from the Naswa at Channel). If you win I owe you a few cold ones.

The highway speed is faster than average, all smaller roads are average (you are towing a boat)

Time Mile Instruction For Toward
Summary: 630.4 miles (9 hours, 32 minutes)
3:00 AM 0.0 Depart Concord on US-202 [US-3] (North) 142 yds
3:00 AM 0.1 Turn RIGHT (East) onto SR-9 [Loudon Rd] 0.2 mi
3:00 AM 0.3 Take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-93 [Everett Tpke] 3.4 mi I-93
3:04 AM 3.6 *Toll road* Stay on I-93 [Everett Tpke] (South-East) 7.8 mi
3:11 AM 11.5 Keep LEFT onto I-293 [Everett Tpke] 8.1 mi I-293 / Everett Turnpike South / Manchester / Nashua
3:19 AM 19.6 *Toll road* Road name changes to Everett Tpke 9.9 mi Everett Turnpike South / Merrimack / Nashua
3:29 AM 29.4 At exit 10, stay on Everett Tpke (South) 3.4 mi
3:33 AM 32.9 Road name changes to US-3 [Everett Tpke] 14.0 mi
3:40 AM 39.7 Entering Massachusetts
3:47 AM 46.9 At exit 32, keep RIGHT onto Ramp 0.2 mi RT-4 / Westford / Chelmsford
3:47 AM 47.1 At roundabout, take the SECOND exit onto SR-4 [North Rd] 1.5 mi RT-4 / Chelmsford / Acton
3:50 AM 48.6 Take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-495 22.6 mi I-495 / Littleton / Worcester
4:10 AM 71.2 At exit 25B, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-290 20.0 mi I-290 / Worcester
4:26 AM 91.3 At exit 8, turn RIGHT onto Ramp 0.1 mi RT-12 S / Webster
4:26 AM 91.4 Turn LEFT (South) onto Oxford St N 164 yds RT-12 S / Oxford / Webster
4:26 AM 91.5 Bear RIGHT (South-West) onto SR-12 [Southbridge St] 0.1 mi
4:27 AM 91.6 Turn RIGHT onto Ramp 0.4 mi I-90 / Mass Pike / Springfield / Boston
4:27 AM 91.9 Keep LEFT to stay on Ramp 0.4 mi I-90
4:29 AM 92.4 *Toll road* Merge onto I-90 [Mass Pike] 11.4 mi
4:38 AM 103.8 At exit 9, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-84 [Wilbur Cross Hwy] 41.6 mi I-84 / US-20 / Hartford / New York City
4:45 AM 112.2 Entering Connecticut
5:15 AM 145.4 At exit 57, take Ramp (LEFT) onto SR-15 [Wilbur Cross Hwy] 1.1 mi CT-15 / I-91 S / Charter Oak Br / N. Y. City
5:16 AM 146.5 Road name changes to US-5 [SR-15] 0.8 mi
5:17 AM 147.3 At exit 86, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-91 36.5 mi I-91 / New Haven / N. Y. City
5:47 AM 183.9 Take Ramp (LEFT) onto I-95 [Governor John Davis Lodge Tpke] 64.8 mi I-95 / N.Y. City
6:34 AM 231.8 Entering New York
6:50 AM 248.6 At exit 6A, turn RIGHT onto Ramp 0.2 mi I-95 / I-678 / Cross Bronx Exp / Geo Washington Br / Whitestone Br
6:50 AM 248.8 Take Ramp (LEFT) onto I-95 [Cross Bronx Expy] 7.8 mi
6:57 AM 255.3 Entering New Jersey
6:58 AM 256.6 Keep LEFT onto I-95 Express Ln [New Jersey Tpke] 2.6 mi I-95 EXPRESS / New Jersey Turnpike / I-80 / Garden State Parkway
7:01 AM 259.2 Road name changes to I-95 [New Jersey Tpke] 1.5 mi I-95 / New Jersey Turnpike / US-46 / The Ridgefields
7:02 AM 260.7 *Toll road* Stay on I-95 [New Jersey Tpke] (South) 48.8 mi
7:44 AM 309.4 *Toll road* Road name changes to New Jersey Tpke 68.0 mi
8:41 AM 377.5 *Toll road* Road name changes to US-40 [New Jersey Tpke] 0.5 mi
8:41 AM 378.0 *Toll road* Road name changes to I-295 [US-40] 0.4 mi
8:42 AM 378.4 Stay on I-295 [US-40] (West) 5.2 mi
8:42 AM 379.2 Entering Delaware
8:47 AM 383.6 Turn LEFT onto Ramp 0.3 mi I-95
8:47 AM 383.8 Keep LEFT to stay on Ramp 0.5 mi I-95
8:48 AM 384.3 At exit 5, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-95 [Delaware Tpke] 10.1 mi I-95 / Del. Tpke. / Baltimore
8:58 AM 394.5 *Toll road* *Tollbooth* Stay on I-95 [Delaware Tpke] (West) 1.3 mi
8:59 AM 395.8 Entering Maryland
8:59 AM 395.8 Stay on I-95 [John F Kennedy Memorial Hwy] (West) 48.2 mi
9:38 AM 444.0 Keep LEFT onto I-895 [Harbor Tunnel Throughway] 15.1 mi I-895 / Harbor Tunnel Thruway / Annapolis / Bay Bridge
9:53 AM 459.1 Merge onto I-95 18.2 mi
10:08 AM 477.4 At exit 27-25, turn RIGHT onto Ramp 0.4 mi I-495 / US-1 / College Park / Silver Spring
10:08 AM 477.7 At exit 27, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-495 [I-495 Outerloop] 30.1 mi I-495 / Silver Spring
10:24 AM 493.5 Entering Virginia
10:38 AM 507.9 At exit 57A, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-95 85.1 mi I-95 / Richmond
11:53 AM 593.0 At exit 84A, take Ramp (LEFT) onto I-295 14.7 mi I-295 / Rocky Mt NC
12:04 PM 607.6 At exit 28A, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-64 4.9 mi I-64 / Norfolk / VA Beach
12:10 PM 612.5 At exit 205, turn RIGHT onto Ramp 0.2 mi VA-33 / VA-249 / US-60 / Bottoms Bridge / Quinton
12:10 PM 612.7 Take Ramp (RIGHT) onto SR-33 [New Kent Hwy] 0.3 mi VA-33 / US-60 / Bottoms Bridge
12:11 PM 613.0 Road name changes to New Kent Hwy 10 yds
12:11 PM 613.0 Bear LEFT (South-East) onto US-60 [Pocahontas Trail] 9.6 mi
12:21 PM 622.6 Turn RIGHT (South) onto SR-155 [N Courthouse Rd] 65 yds
12:22 PM 622.6 Turn LEFT (East) onto SR-155 [Boulevard Rd] 131 yds
12:22 PM 622.7 Bear RIGHT (East) onto SR-155 [S Courthouse Rd] 2.1 mi
12:25 PM 624.8 Keep STRAIGHT onto SR-155 [Courthouse Rd] 5.3 mi
12:31 PM 630.1 Road name changes to Courthouse Rd 0.2 mi
12:32 PM 630.4 Arrive Charles City

SUMMARY
Driving distance: 630.4 miles
Trip duration: 9 hours, 32 minutes
Driving time: 9 hours, 32 minutes
Cost: $122.69

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

You can not just state something and wish it to be true. I unleashed NOTHING nasty on anyone on here ever. Go ahead and prove it. I said nothing on here to anyone at any time that wasn't said directly at me.

Again you call in to the argument how I do my job. It has no relevance on this forum. I am filing a formal complaint to the moderator as we speak. Constantly calling my job into the argument while questioning my intelligence crosses the line I'm afraid.

Here are a few smiley faces for you TB: I use them to show emotion. They are called emoticons. Look it up. Uusually used to show how I am feeling when I type the message. For example the smiley face: Usually shows that I am happy and having fun while I type. Like this:

Question someone's intelligence? You could never do that. Here's some Hazelnutese from May, '08:
"Not only are YOU self centered but you fail at comprehension.
I'll slow it down for you.....
Sorry I'll never ever agree that kayaking in the broads is wise speed limit or no speed limit. I think it is dumb actually".

Calling in the moderator??? Boy, you sure can dish it out, but when someone else gives it back...well, you run for cover behind mommy's skirt.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Question someone's intelligence? You could never do that. Here's some Hazelnutese from May, '08:
"Not only are YOU self centered but you fail at comprehension.
I'll slow it down for you.....
Sorry I'll never ever agree that kayaking in the broads is wise speed limit or no speed limit. I think it is dumb actually".

Calling in the moderator??? Boy, you sure can dish it out, but when someone else gives it back...well, you run for cover behind mommy's skirt.

THAT'S IT?!?!? THAT'S ALL YOU'VE GOT?

Wow I am such a jerk! ha ha ha ha

Yes it is dumb to kayak inthe broads. That is my opinion. I stick to it. What else did I say? Oh yeah I called someone self centered and told them they failed at comprehension.

Wow. So that opens me up to ridicule and allows you to use my profession to belittle me in an argument you are failing at? I am sorry to disagree with you but... I do. Why don't you share with us what you do for a living?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

THAT'S IT?!?!? THAT'S ALL YOU'VE GOT?

Wow I am such a jerk! ha ha ha ha

The fact that TB had to go back a year and a half through all your threads to find that makes it even funnier! Someone has too much time on their hands.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by codeman671

The fact that TB had to go back a year and a half through all your threads to find that makes it even funnier! Someone has too much time on their hands.

Actually, I started on the last page (page 20 I believe). But all you have to do is go back to July/August of this year!

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I unleashed NOTHING nasty on anyone on here ever.

Hazelnut, you just recently called me a liar. You promised to apologize, but were not woman enough to do it when shown you were wrong. You have time and again shown yourself to be nasty and insulting, then like the others in your group, you tack a few smiley faces at the end of your posts so you can later pretend you were just "razzing" (whatever that means).
The bottom line is that 83% (+/- 3%) of the registered voters of NH (who own the lake, pay for its management, pay higher taxes when it is mismanaged and tourism drops, pay lower taxes when it is better managed and tourism rises, elect the State's legislators, and may or may not use the lake for any one of a wide variety of purposes) want a speed limit on it, and their votes are THE most important influence on the legislators from all around the state...even from Salem. We cannot limit to just votes of boating citizens or to the legislators representing them...not in this country. And the other bottom line is that you guys have polled yourselves and can't even agree amongst yourselves whether we should have any laws at all or should just leave it up to people with no common sense to make their own choices about what is appropriate. Good luck taking that to Concord and good luck in the independent country that you guys form because you need to drive your boats over 45MPH. Just don't base your economy on tourism.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by elchase

The bottom line is that 83% (+/- 3%) of the registered voters of NH

Show me the money...........................

[gtagrip]

[QUOTE=elchase;109110]Hazelnut, you just recently called me a liar.

Oh, boo hoo! Did you go run and tell your mommy? You sound like my 5 year old. Actually, my 5 year old can take it!

Originally Posted by gtagrip

Did you go run and tell your mommy?

My mother just died last month after a long and painful battle with cancer. I'm guessing after all the investigating of me that you guys did that you knew of this. You are a real class act.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by elchase

My mother just died last month after a long and painful battle with cancer. I'm guessing after all the investigating of me that you guys did that you knew of this. You are a real class act.

If I had seen this in the local papers, I would have send condolence.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by elchase

My mother just died last month after a long and painful battle with cancer. I'm guessing after all the investigating of me that you guys did that you knew of this. You are a real class act.

Sorry to hear about your mother. I re-tract the "mommy comment. But actually, I have better things to do than investigate you or who you are. I could actually careless.

[NoBozo]

All bets are OFF if it RAINS. NB

[Ryan]

I wonder how the ARG poll would have turned out if the results from the MP speed survey had been referenced in the survey question?

It's very surprising that none of those findings were included...

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

All bets are OFF if it RAINS. NB

I'm watching that closely..... Not only that but if it rains there goes my Sat. as well... Will have to pull the engine as well as detail the entire boat....... Again!... lol.. She will be rocking next year...

Next year we will definately meet up and settle the bet...

Better yet lets meet in the middle of the broads and enjoy some fun runs. See if we can get a group of us together...

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

All bets are OFF if it RAINS. NB

you never mention snow!!!

407 votes so far..... seems that if you take away everyone who has commented in this thread there is still a very wide margin of people from winni.com voting.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

you never mention snow!!!

407 votes so far..... seems that if you take away everyone who has commented in this thread there is still a very wide margin of people from winni.com voting.

But this is a GFBL site remember.

[ApS]

"...The polls are up to the honesty and integrety of everyone on the forum...Those that choose to cheat the system are the handicaped low-life losers..."

Um...umm...ummm...

No comment.

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"...407 votes so far..... seems that if you take away everyone who has commented in this thread there is still a very wide margin of people from winni.com voting..."

Originally Posted by hazelnut

"...But this is a GFBL site remember..."

To quote John F. Kerry, (sorta):

"Would that it were so...would that it were so..."

[BroadHopper]

According to American Research Group only 64% of 600 people interviewed by phone is in favor of the speed limit. ARG claims a margin of error of only 9%???? Not all of the 600 folks are registered voters.

According to the 2000 Census found on nh.gov website there are 1,235,786 folks in NH. rule out those that are under 18 (309,401) you have 926,385 potential voters. According to Wikipedia as of 2002 25.6% of the registered voters are Democrats, 36.7% are Republicans and the rest (37.7%) are 'independents'.

So my point is how can less than 600 folks represent the consensus of 926,385 potential voters? ARG did not say where these folks are located. My best guess is that ARG is located in Manchester and I can bet you 'rita that those polled are in the greater Manchester area.

Take a look at this blog regarding the credibility of ARG.
http://ajacksonian.blogspot.com/2007...rch-group.html

So where did the 83% of the NH voters come from?????

[Kracken]

The ARG poll question was:

Do you favor or oppose a law that would impose speed limits for boats on large lakes in New Hampshire?

Favor: 64 Oppose 22 Undecided 14.

An interesting point:
29% of republicans were against a speed limit while 8% of Democrats opposed it.

The poll question did not try to educate the sample in any way. Nor did it give specifics of what a speed limit should be. How valid is an opinion if the person being asked has little to no knowledge of the subject.

When that happens you get answers like this:

“I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, people out there in our nation don't have maps and, uh, I believe that our, uh, education like such as, uh, South Africa and uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as, and, I believe that they should, our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., uh, or, uh, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future, for our ….” Caitlin Upton

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

According to American Research Group only 64% of 600 people interviewed by phone is in favor of the speed limit. ARG claims a margin of error of only 9%???? Not all of the 600 folks are registered voters.

According to the 2000 Census found on nh.gov website there are 1,235,786 folks in NH. rule out those that are under 18 (309,401) you have 926,385 potential voters. According to Wikipedia as of 2002 25.6% of the registered voters are Democrats, 36.7% are Republicans and the rest (37.7%) are 'independents'.

So my point is how can less than 600 folks represent the consensus of 926,385 potential voters? ARG did not say where these folks are located. My best guess is that ARG is located in Manchester and I can bet you 'rita that those polled are in the greater Manchester area.

Take a look at this blog regarding the credibility of ARG.
http://ajacksonian.blogspot.com/2007...rch-group.html

So where did the 83% of the NH voters come from?????

Interesting read- I have a hard time giving any business or professional organization any credibility when I see AOL email adresses such as those that ARG lists.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

According to American Research Group only 64% of 600 people interviewed by phone is in favor of the speed limit. ARG claims a margin of error of only 9%???? Not all of the 600 folks are registered voters.

According to the 2000 Census found on nh.gov website there are 1,235,786 folks in NH. rule out those that are under 18 (309,401) you have 926,385 potential voters. According to Wikipedia as of 2002 25.6% of the registered voters are Democrats, 36.7% are Republicans and the rest (37.7%) are 'independents'.

So my point is how can less than 600 folks represent the consensus of 926,385 potential voters? ARG did not say where these folks are located. My best guess is that ARG is located in Manchester and I can bet you 'rita that those polled are in the greater Manchester area.

Take a look at this blog regarding the credibility of ARG.
http://ajacksonian.blogspot.com/2007...rch-group.html

So where did the 83% of the NH voters come from?????

Thanks for the link. It further solidifies my position. I can't wait to hear how this one gets spun though.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Thanks for the link. It further solidifies my position. I can't wait to hear how this one gets spun though.

Oh, Hazelnut, don't you know that this probably does not contain all the
facts.

Originally Posted by Ryan

I wonder how the ARG poll would have turned out if the results from the MP speed survey had been referenced in the survey question? It's very surprising that none of those findings were included

I wonder if everyone in the state would have favored the speed limit (except the 8 of you or course) had it been taken right after the crash of the boat driven by the NHRBA president. It's very surprising that you don't mention that.

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

So where did the 83% of the NH voters come from?????

You guys are right. I made a mistake and apologize. Sometimes my memory is not perfect. The 83% was Democrats. The percentage of total voters was "only" 78%. Thanks for sending me back to do the research that you guys seem so unable to do.

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

According to American Research Group only 64% of 600 people interviewed by phone is in favor of the speed limit. ARG claims a margin of error of only 9%????

Now you surely know that you are quoting the first of three polls and the one most favorable to you (even though still hugely unfavorable to you), don't you? You guys complained about the lack of specificity in this question so it was repeated with a more specific 45/25 question and the favorability rose significantly. Then you complained that the sample size was too small (although it was more than statistically sufficient already), so the sample size was increased and the favorability again increased significantly. You guys know all this, but keep quoting the first poll. WHY?
Their June '05 poll asked 600 randomly selected people across NH "Do you favor or oppose a state law placing a 45 miles per hour daytime and 25 miles per hour nighttime speed limit on boats operating on New Hampshire lakes?", to which the response was 63% in favor and 9% opposed. 9 voters favored a speed limit to every one that opposed.
Their February '07 poll asked 2000 randomly selected people across NH "Do you favor or oppose a law that places speed limits on boats on lakes in New Hampshire?". 78% of all voters (R and D) answered in support and only 18% opposed.

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

So my point is how can less than 600 folks represent the consensus of 926,385 potential voters?

You claim to have been a professional statistician and you have to ask this question? Come on. Assuming as I must that you just made that up, if you have to ask this question, did you at least look at the link we discussed yesterday that explains all about the statistical accuracy of polls based on sample size, or do you only read stuff that you know is going to tell you what you want to hear? Did you even try to look into this yourself before you asked this question? Have you ever been to a casino? They must love to see "professional statisticians" like you coming.

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Take a look at this blog regarding the credibility of ARG.

A blog? Your resorting to blogs now? Did you google ARG and find a negative result on the tenth page and decide that was good enough to entirely undermine ARG's credibility? Did you even read the blog? Do you know whose blog it is and what his history with ARG's founder is? "Mr. Bennett's attempt to hide a substantial amount of cash from his deceased father's estate that should have been used for the care of his mother, is this sort of individual trustworthy as a head of a polling organization?" Sounds like a hatchet job by a guy with a grudge, no? But just for the sake of argument let's assume this guy is teling the truth...please tell us how Mr. Bennett's family financial dealings disqualify the finding that 78% of NH voters favor a speed limit? Specifically? How is the accuracy of the poll done by his employees undone by Bennett's relationship with his mother?

Originally Posted by Kracken

The poll question did not try to educate the sample in any way. Nor did it give specifics of what a speed limit should be.
When that happens you get answers like this:

Do you know anything about polling? Just because Katy Couric and Dan Rather might try to "educate" people before they "poll" them does not mean it is proper. Polls are not meant to "educate", they are meant to measure. ARG did a very accurate job measuring the opinion of Granite Staters on this issue. And based on the rising favorability during a time when the State's newspapers were flooded with discussion on this topic, it's hard to artgue that people did not understand what they were saying.

Originally Posted by Kracken

“I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, people out there in our nation don't have maps and, uh, I believe that our, uh, education like such as, uh, South Africa and uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as, and, I believe that they should, our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., uh, or, uh, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future, for our ….”

I looked and looked, but simply can't find where any of the NH voters polled by ARG said this or anything so irrelevant. In fact, it has the intelligence, coherence, and grammar that one would more likely expect from one of you guys. But please tell us again how it relates to this discussion.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Thanks for the link. It further solidifies my position.

No surprise there. But I am surprised you guys are not just giving links to each other's posts to "solidify your positions". Have you thought of that? It makes as much sense.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by elchase

My mother just died last month after a long and painful battle with cancer. I'm guessing after all the investigating of me that you guys did that you knew of this. You are a real class act.

elchase,

What an awful tragedy. As many have said Cancer is an ugly thing and it can be devastating to families. I myself am a former President of my local Chapter of the American Cancer Society. I was chairperson of an event that raised over $200,000 during my tenure. I witnessed many a heartbreak with relation to Cancer. Fortunately I was able to witness many triumph's as well.

With that said this statment: "You are a real class act. " that you made towards gtagrip was a bit harsh. I am sure he had no idea and I am sure he would not have said it if he knew.

Your posting buddy TurtleBoy made a comment about my mother in an earlier post on this thread. Is he a real class act? He has no idea with regard to my mothers health or wellbeing.

I am sure your comment was made out of passion but I am also just as sure that gtagrip meant nothing personal. Jus as I believe TurtleBoy was only using a saying when he referred to me "hiding behind my mommy's skirt."

You two (elchase and Turlteboy) claim to be above the fray and victims in all of this. My thoughts lean towards, you reap what you sow and that you are not innocent in all of this.

[gtagrip]

[QUOTE=Turtle Boy;109037]What concerns me is...well...do you treat your students in such a belittling manner? These kids might have no other choice than to endure such behavior. Kids are impressionable...what they see is sometimes what they imitate.

I'm sure hazelnut doesn't have to treat his students the way he treats you. I'm sure they are more mature than you are. Did I spell everything correctly by the way?

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications.

I am curious:
What Stats? The ones that showed nobody was speeding on the lake? Or the Stats that show little to no accidents associated with High Speed?