One way or the other

[NoRegrets]

I have and still maintain my belief that there is no value to laws that have no impact. Thanks OCDACTIVE for such a logical progression of facts on the issue. Now if only the ill informed Pollyanna politicians were capable of rational thinking would I believe we can make some real progress after the 2 year project is completed.

[Kracken]

Pollyanna politicians???

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

I have and still maintain my belief that there is no value to laws that have no impact. Thanks OCDACTIVE for such a logical progression of facts on the issue. Now if only the ill informed Pollyanna politicians were capable of rational thinking would I believe we can make some real progress after the 2 year project is completed.

More importantly a law that has a "Perceived Effect." This is my biggest problem with the law and the supporters of the law. They use terms like the lake is quieter, and less busy, and safer in their arguments for a Speed Limit. I am sorry but Laws are enacted to curb a specific problem. This law has supporters because of the PERCEIVED side effects. That is ridiculous in my opinion. 1 ticket? No statistics? Just hearsay. If this were a courtroom it would be thrown out before the jury had a chance to hear the case.

Just my humble opinion

[pm203]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

, . If this were a courtroom it would be thrown out before the jury had a chance to hear the case.

Just my humble opinion

So, why can't the house and senate figure it out? Are they that foolish, or just a bunch of gullible ameteurs? It's a shame they have the powers they do.

[NoRegrets]

Hi Kracken,

I liked the way the 2 words rhymed together. Here are the common literary definitions:

Pollyanna n. A person regarded as being foolishly or blindly optimistic.

Politicians n. Persons involved in politics

Politicians n. My personal definition has become a group of big spending, self serving, tax evading, lying bassturds that bend the laws for their personal gain or benefits.

I believe the Pollyanna Politicians (the many that had no knowledge of the issue but still voted) optimistically passed this ineffective speed law and thought they were going to help. Now the pro SL supporters want to change the rules and declare victory after half of the test term complete. This is where I apply my definition of a politician.

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Hi Kracken,

I liked the way the 2 words rhymed together. Here are the common literary definitions:

Pollyanna n. A person regarded as being foolishly or blindly optimistic.

Politicians n. Persons involved in politics

Politicians n. My personal definition has become a group of big spending, self serving, tax evading, lying bassturds that bend the laws for their personal gain or benefits.

I believe the Pollyanna Politicians (the many that had no knowledge of the issue but still voted) optimistically passed this ineffective speed law and thought they were going to help. Now the pro SL supporters want to change the rules and declare victory after half of the test term complete. This is where I apply my definition of a politician.

Thanks NoRegrets,

Thats what I thought. I like the term

[Kracken]

Turtle boy.

You made this statement twice yesterday:

“...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH”

I am a little confused here and maybe you can clarify. How does a boat “screaming” by you at 70 MPH at a distance of 150 feet impact you in a negative way? As long as the “screaming” boat stays 150 away from you, I don’t understand how it would have a negative impact on you.

As a follow up question; has this ever actually happened to you?

Finally, does anybody have information about the 1 speeding ticket that was issued?

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Turtle boy.

You made this statement twice yesterday:

“...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH”

I am a little confused here and maybe you can clarify. How does a boat “screaming” by you at 70 MPH at a distance of 150 feet impact you in a negative way? As long as the “screaming” boat stays 150 away from you, I don’t understand how it would have a negative impact on you.

As a follow up question; has this ever actually happened to you?

Finally, does anybody have information about the 1 speeding ticket that was issued?

As a followup to the "screaming" boats..... are you implying that fishing boats screaming past you over 150 ft. are too loud? or just GFB?

I heard thru a friend that the ticket was going to be a warning but the person was rude to the MP officer......

[Kracken]

pm203

You lost me on this:

“The issue is a very small group of selfish, self-centered individuals trying to avenge the death of their friend.”

Maybe its me and I killed off a few to many brain cells this weekend. Could you clarify this? It is the first time I have heard this theory.

[pm203]

After the Littlefield accident and a loss of a neighbor and friend in that accident, a small group of people vowed to get rid of all the high performance boats on the lake to avenge his death. This was the catalyst that advanced a law that was previously turned down several times by the senate.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by pm203

After the Littlefield accident and a loss of a neighbor and friend in that accident, a small group of people vowed to get rid of all the high performance boats on the lake to avenge his death. This was the catalyst that advanced a law that was previously turned down several times by the senate.

I will not be surprise that if the BAJA was a bass boat, they would be banning bass boats instead of GFBL. Likewise if it was a big cruiser.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.

I will agree that the difference is night and day so pay attention because I am going to help you out a little as you are trying to compare the 2008 economy with 2009. First you mentioned the gas, so that is covered as to the difference between the years, but I will post in my list anyway. All figures are fiscal year start to date.

Description 2008 2009

Nat. Unemployment 5.8% 9.7%

NH Unemployment 3.9% 6.9%

Gas $5.00 $3.00

The next list is my companies growth comparing 2008 to 2007 and 2009 to 2008. Again Fiscal year start to date. I am in the remodeling industry, we do not build new houses or spec homes or developments, we remodel existing homes. We have out performed 4 out of 6 of our peers in the Lake Sunapee region.

Description 2008 V 2007 2009 V 2008

Sales volume +8% -49%


Our company is now half the size it was in 2007 in all aspects and that started in November of 2008. Like I said we out performed 4 of our 6 direct competitors (companies of like size and sales volume) We do not count the back of the pickup truck or fly by nighters in our data, you have to have a showroom, professional appearence with vehicles and an annual sales volume of over 1 million (average).

The major difference in this year to last is that every job this year has had 4-6 bids submitted with most of the winning bidders bids at our cost. We rutinely follow up with customers and clients to get an idea of why and what caused them to go with someone else over us. Our company does not sell or deliver cheap, we sell and deliver professionalism and quality. If you do not believe me visit my website www.foremostbuilders.com .

Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what the difference between 2008 and 2009 is really like. Not some pipe dream that you think has nothing to do with the amount of boating activity on the lake. The speed limit has as much to do with it as the water temp.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by jmen24

I will agree that the difference is night and day so pay attention because I am going to help you out a little as you are trying to compare the 2008 economy with 2009. First you mentioned the gas, so that is covered as to the difference between the years, but I will post in my list anyway. All figures are fiscal year start to date.

Description 2008 2009

Nat. Unemployment 5.8% 9.7%

NH Unemployment 3.9% 6.9%

Gas $5.00 $3.00

The next list is my companies growth comparing 2008 to 2007 and 2009 to 2008. Again Fiscal year start to date. I am in the remodeling industry, we do not build new houses or spec homes or developments, we remodel existing homes. We have out performed 4 out of 6 of our peers in the Lake Sunapee region.

Description 2008 V 2007 2009 V 2008

Sales volume +8% -49%


Our company is now half the size it was in 2007 in all aspects and that started in November of 2008. Like I said we out performed 4 of our 6 direct competitors (companies of like size and sales volume) We do not count the back of the pickup truck or fly by nighters in our data, you have to have a showroom, professional appearence with vehicles and an annual sales volume of over 1 million (average).

The major difference in this year to last is that every job this year has had 4-6 bids submitted with most of the winning bidders bids at our cost. We rutinely follow up with customers and clients to get an idea of why and what caused them to go with someone else over us. Our company does not sell or deliver cheap, we sell and deliver professionalism and quality. If you do not believe me visit my website www.foremostbuilders.com .

Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what the difference between 2008 and 2009 is really like. Not some pipe dream that you think has nothing to do with the amount of boating activity on the lake. The speed limit has as much to do with it as the water temp.

You make very good points with numbers to support them. I hope things improve for your business...People are seeing signs of this and I hope they're right. We're having a little construction done and can see the builders are really hurting. Many people on forum are attributing all the change on the lake to weather and economy, and while they may contribute, I would add the following. August weather was great, and I boated more in August than I can remember. Secondly, gas prices, according to what people have said on this forum, are a major contributor to how much people boat. Now 9.7%/6.9%US/NH unemployment is not good, and many of the other 90.3%/93.1% have also been affected, but there are many on the lake who have been somewhat insulated(and I'm sorry it's not you)....many on pensions, many in the public and medical sectors, etc., etc.,and many who come to Winni are probably better off than the average person. There were many days in August when the traffic near me seemed almost normal; my point is that their behavior was different. The previously described GFBL's screaming 150' past the fisherman at 70 MPH were pretty much gone for example. As much as some on the forum would deny it, it can't all be explained by the economy and weather. The manner in which people are boating has changed for the better, even if fewer are boating. Good luck with your business...next year should be better.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

The previously described GFBL's screaming 150' past the fisherman at 70 MPH were pretty much gone for example.

SL or no SL, why is this an issue? Previous laws have determined that 150' was 'safe passage' at any speed.

I also tried to find the MP report of this incident, but was unsucessful. Would you happen to have a copy, or is this just another example of ficticious fearmongering?

Lack of education and CB's are the real issues on the lake. They were there in 2008 and they are here in 2009. The feel good law did nothing to solve any problems.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Ryan

SL or no SL, why is this an issue? Previous laws have determined that 150' was 'safe passage' at any speed.

I also tried to find the MP report of this incident, but was unsucessful. Would you happen to have a copy, or is this just another example of ficticious fearmongering?

Lack of education and CB's are the real issues on the lake. They were there in 2008 and they are here in 2009. The feel good law did nothing to solve any problems.

Whoa, calm down there buckaroo....that's the point, speeding past a fisherman (or anyone else) at 70 MPH at a distance of 150' was legal until this year...unpleasant, irritating but legal. Not any longer. And despite some who contend otherwise, the Sl was not ONLY about safety. As far as your melodrama about ficticious fearmongering...chill.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

As far as your melodrama about ficticious fearmongering...chill.

Sorry. I'm calm now.

I like to enjoy the lake as much as you and everybody else. We both certainly have the right to take a stance in the debate. We can certainly agree to disagree. One issue I feel very strongly about and could be proven with facts, is the SL did not change anything it was intended to change.

For the record, I do not own a GFBL. I'm just rational.

Enjoy the afternoon!

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Sorry. I'm calm now.

I like to enjoy the lake as much as you and everybody else. We both certainly have the right to take a stance in the debate. We can certainly agree to disagree. One issue I feel very strongly about and could be proven with facts, is the SL did not change anything it was intended to change.

For the record, I do not own a GFBL. I'm just rational.

Enjoy the afternoon!

Most of us feel the same way as you and don't own a fast boat, but to steal Airwave's line from above- why let that get in the way of a good argument!

[XCR-700]

GFBL.

Odd man out again, but I for one thoroughly enjoy the sound of a marine engine with an open exhaust running across the lake.

And that’s day, night, anytime, ANYTIME.

I personally find it even more soothing and tranquil than hearing nothing but waves and crickets.

To me its just one of those sounds that brings back very positive memories of my childhood and spending summers on Winnipesaukee when there was less other background noise and you could hear the many boats with open exhaust buzzing the lake.

It was always a hallmark of good weather and good times, and a good running motor made the most wonderful drone off in the distance. I could always go to sleep with the sound of a powerboat off in the distance, and to date, its still one of the most memorable things that I long for from my youth.

I will gladly concur that some boats and operators can be very annoying at the docks when their boats hit some huge decibels and they are playing with the throttle like a goofball, but other than that I can think of few sounds that I enjoy more than a boat cruising across the lake with a harmonious tone filling the air.
p.s. as for being buzzed at 150’ given that my house is 40’ long, your talking 3 1/2 house lengths separation,,, Given that I drive Rt 93 every day with people passing me doing 80+ MPH, often less than 5’ away,,, well 70 MPH at 150’ sounds not too bad if they are in full control and paying proper attention to what their doing.

Well this is just ones persons opinion (sadly,,,)

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

GFBL.

Given that I drive Rt 93 every day with people passing me doing 80+ MPH, often less than 5’ away(

Which is precisely why I have steadfastly refused to swim, fish, sail, or allow my family to go tubing on Rt 93.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Which is precisely why I have steadfastly refused to swim, fish, sail, or allow my family to go tubing on Rt 93.

Don't give up your day job!

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Which is precisely why I have steadfastly refused to swim, fish, sail, or allow my family to go tubing on Rt 93.

Guess you could always declare Winnipesaukee your personal playground, otherwise EVERYONE using the lake needs to exercise plenty of caution all the time. Just being in the water is dangerous, are we going to start assigning lifeguards to every swimmer?

Sorry but I don’t see how getting run over at 45 is any less painful than getting run over at 70.

And there are those who will argue that the difference in speed will allow more time to get out of the way or for the driver to steer around, but personally don’t buy either argument blindly.

If your swimming and a power boat is bearing down on you, sorry your not too likely to be able to get out of their way at any speed.

As for the driver of the boat being able to observe, react, and successfully avoid any particular problem at various speeds, well I think the answer is a legitimate “maybe”. If he sees the problem, if he responds appropriately, if, if, if,,,,

I’ll even go so far as to say that there are more inherent risks operating a boat at 70 vs 45, maybe a lot more.

But what most here seem to be arguing is that the people operating boats over 45 are the minority of Winnipesaukee boaters and are NOT the problem when referring to boating safety issues.

The common theme I see is bad drivers, and I fully agree.

Speed does not = bad driver and bad driver does not = speed.

Sure they can be equal, but most here seem to agree that’s not what we observe. It’s the inexperienced and inconsiderate/irresponsible operators who are the problem. And most of those knuckle heads boats barely go 45 let alone do 70. There are exceptions to everything, but I’m referring to the bulk of the knuckleheads that you see on any given Saturday during the summer who are driving like kids at a go-kart track.

I enjoy boating and swimming as much as the next guy and almost always do so with my young children. And the vast majority of the time I’m boating on Winnipesaukee I’m cruising the lake at 35 – 45 MPH, but I do enjoy a good blast when the conditions allow, and don’t feel that if done responsibly I should be called a felon or looked down upon as some evil person with no regard for life, property, or common sense.

Call me optimistic, but I have faith that most of my fellow boaters operate responsibly, otherwise I wouldn’t risk bringing my children to a lake that allowed powerboats, there are options. I just don’t see boats doing 70 next to the sandbar all day long. Sorry, that’s not my experience, and I would hope its not yours.

So in my mind the whole speed limit thing is just feel-good legislation that accomplishes nothing in the way of tangible safety improvements. Sorry it completely misses the mark in my opinion. And I for one don’t buy into the concept that a reduction of 1 accident every year (or every 5 years) that might be directly attributed to high speed operation is a reasonable tradeoff for the loss felt by every other boater.

Sorry, I’ve had enough of this topic for now, Over and Out,,,

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

GFBL.

Odd man out again, but I for one thoroughly enjoy the sound of a marine engine with an open exhaust running across the lake.

And that’s day, night, anytime, ANYTIME.

I personally find it even more soothing and tranquil than hearing nothing but waves and crickets.

To me its just one of those sounds that brings back very positive memories of my childhood and spending summers on Winnipesaukee when there was less other background noise and you could hear the many boats with open exhaust buzzing the lake.

It was always a hallmark of good weather and good times, and a good running motor made the most wonderful drone off in the distance. I could always go to sleep with the sound of a powerboat off in the distance, and to date, its still one of the most memorable things that I long for from my youth.

I will gladly concur that some boats and operators can be very annoying at the docks when their boats hit some huge decibels and they are playing with the throttle like a goofball, but other than that I can think of few sounds that I enjoy more than a boat cruising across the lake with a harmonious tone filling the air.
p.s. as for being buzzed at 150’ given that my house is 40’ long, your talking 3 1/2 house lengths separation,,, Given that I drive Rt 93 every day with people passing me doing 80+ MPH, often less than 5’ away,,, well 70 MPH at 150’ sounds not too bad if they are in full control and paying proper attention to what their doing.

Well this is just ones persons opinion (sadly,,,)

I also feel the same way about above water exhaust. I personally love the sound and the louder the better... I may bet flamed for this but the one thing I don't like is when you hear that beautiful rumble coming from a far. The sound gets louder and louder. Excitement builds and I await to see a 40 ft GFB come around the corner and blow through the bay out into the next. But alas the sound gets closer and closer and the excitement builds and there it is.... A 18 ft bowrider with a tricked out exhaust on a six cyl. Reminds me of something like on "the fast and furious"... if you have above water exhaust... Have the boat that goes with it.. LOL

[pm203]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

I also feel the same way about above water exhaust. I personally love the sound and the louder the better... I may bet flamed for this but the one thing I don't like is when you hear that beautiful rumble coming from a far. The sound gets louder and louder. Excitement builds and I await to see a 40 ft GFB come around the corner and blow through the bay out into the next. But alas the sound gets closer and closer and the excitement builds and there it is.... A 18 ft bowrider with a tricked out exhaust on a six cyl. Reminds me of something like on "the fast and furious"... if you have above water exhaust... Have the boat that goes with it.. LOL

The Sl supporters say that the general public does not like performance boats. But, I cannot tell you how many times people take photos of my boat. A typical weekend day could be at least 5-6 photos.And, that's just in one day! Whenever I dock, there is always a crowd around the boat. If I go to leave a channel, alot of times, people will wave me through and tell me they want to watch and HEAR the boat get on plane. They really enjoy the visuals and sound as I do and most of us do. If only the rest of the world wasn't so uptight.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

if you have above water exhaust... Have the boat that goes with it.. LOL

I’m on board with your theme, and don’t have any use for a buzz – buzz boat that sounds like crap.

I’m referring to that sweet sound of a real marine engine.

Pretty much anything that’s a genuine classic, old woodies, 60’s and 70’ fiberglass jet drives and inboards, and even modern future classics like a Scarab or a Formula or a Fountain or whatever. Just love that deep, full-throated bellow filling Alton Bay or blasting across the Broads, GOOD Stuff for sure!!!

Maybe even throw in an old flat-bottom jet or v-drive with full open headers,,, well maybe not too many of them, but they were fun to see once or twice in a weekend.

Sure miss the good old days when we had real gas, and the marina smelled of the heavy premix in the crisp morning air, and the rumble of a big block exhaust lumbering along through the NWZ, it all said that we were gonna have FUN today!

No apologies, but that’s my idea of a good day, just like the ones I grew up with EVERY summer on Winnipesaukee!

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Whoa, calm down there buckaroo....that's the point, speeding past a fisherman (or anyone else) at 70 MPH at a distance of 150' was legal until this year...unpleasant, irritating but legal. Not any longer. And despite some who contend otherwise, the Sl was not ONLY about safety. As far as your melodrama about ficticious fearmongering...chill.

Just curious as to how you obtained the speed measurement of 70 mph.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Just curious as to how you obtained the speed measurement of 70 mph.

You're right...hmmm, maybe it was 80.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

You're right...hmmm, maybe it was 80.

Maybe it was. But then again, maybe it was 40 and your perception of speeds is a bit off. Hmmmmmm.
My point is that you are throwing this 70 MPH speed out there like it is some kind of fact, when it is really just a guess on your part. Unless you had a radar gun, you have no way of knowing just how fast that boat was going.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Maybe it was. But then again, maybe it was 40 and your perception of speeds is a bit off. Hmmmmmm.
My point is that you are throwing this 70 MPH speed out there like it is some kind of fact, when it is really just a guess on your part. Unless you had a radar gun, you have no way of knowing just how fast that boat was going.

Well actually, here's why it seemed so fast. At the same time the GFBL was going past my fishing boat, an F/A-18 fighter jet was going over my boat (also 150') in the exact same direction. The GFBL made it to Gilford first!

[jmen24]

Wow... I can't believe how close to peril I have lived my life.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by pm203

After the Littlefield accident and a loss of a neighbor and friend in that accident, a small group of people vowed to get rid of all the high performance boats on the lake to avenge his death. This was the catalyst that advanced a law that was previously turned down several times by the senate.

While it is true that the accident may have been the catalyst for many people, it was not indicative of the real problem.

The real problems were many but near the top of the list was the steady increase in the average boat size and horsepower, environmental concerns, and the increasing cowboy atmosphere of the lake. Most importantly it was the direction the lake was going in.

You can believe that it's revenge against performance boats if you wish. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

While it is true that the accident may have been the catalyst for many people, it was not indicative of the real problem.

The real problems were many but near the top of the list was the steady increase in the average boat size and horsepower, environmental concerns, and the increasing cowboy atmosphere of the lake. Most importantly it was the direction the lake was going in.

You can believe that it's revenge against performance boats if you wish. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.

OK. Now you are talking about all boats. Not just GFBL. On this aspect, I will have to agree with you. Unfortunately there are people that wants to ban a specific class of boats i.e. GFBL. This is like racism. Give a certain type of boaters a bad name. If the above quote is the real agenda then it will help tremendously in approaching a real compromise among all boaters and waterfront owners on Winnipesaukee and possibly all of NH.

If we can concentrate on corralling the 'cowboys' and 'Captain Boneheads', I think we can speak volumes in reducing the fear factor and increase safe boating.

I hope the majority of the SL opponents will agree with me.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

OK. Now you are talking about all boats. Not just GFBL. On this aspect, I will have to agree with you. Unfortunately there are people that wants to ban a specific class of boats i.e. GFBL. This is like racism. Give a certain type of boaters a bad name. If the above quote is the real agenda then it will help tremendously in approaching a real compromise among all boaters and waterfront owners on Winnipesaukee and possibly all of NH.

If we can concentrate on corralling the 'cowboys' and 'Captain Boneheads', I think we can speak volumes in reducing the fear factor and increase safe boating.

I hope the majority of the SL opponents will agree with me.

Yes, if allowed, I am breaking my self-imposed no posting here

But BroadHopper sates what many of us have stated for a long time, especially this year.

I have bolded what I think says it all. BI, I think these folks can help you accomplish just that. By next year and thereafter, the economy "probably" will have recovered to more normal levels. Now's a great time to start working together towards a common goal. BroadHopper, in a single sentence, has defined that common goal very well.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

If we can concentrate on corralling the 'cowboys' and 'Captain Boneheads', I think we can speak volumes in reducing the fear factor and increase safe boating.

I definately agree.. Enforcement of the safe passage law and education is the way to curve this issue. Speed limits do nothing to reduce fear and or improve safety.

In my personal observations it is not the $200K GFB cruising at 55mph that you have to be worried about. Its the family driving the "Thurstons Marina Rental Boat" that I steer FAR away from.

The GFB normally has much more experience and stake in his boat then the weekend warriors or Capt'n BH!

[pm203]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

I definately agree.. Enforcement of the safe passage law and education is the way to curve this issue. Speed limits do nothing to reduce fear and or improve safety.

In my personal observations it is not the $200K GFB cruising at 55mph that you have to be worried about. Its the family driving the "Thurstons Marina Rental Boat" that I steer FAR away from.

The GFB normally has much more experience and stake in his boat then the weekend warriors or Capt'n BH!

Couldn't be more spot on!!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by BI

While it is true that the accident may have been the catalyst for many people, it was not indicative of the real problem.

The real problems were many but near the top of the list was the steady increase in the average boat size and horsepower, environmental concerns, and the increasing cowboy atmosphere of the lake. Most importantly it was the direction the lake was going in.

You can believe that it's revenge against performance boats if you wish. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.

While I disagree with Bear Islander 100% on the speed limit issue he has always maintained that his support for speed limits has little to do with safety, the only supporter that I am aware of that honestly makes that statement.

I find it interesting I have read that WinnFabs was created in part by two of the principles in the Littlefield accident that MAY have been linked to the cause of the accident...it is my opinion that the entire Speed Limits push was nothing more than a red herring to shift public opinion away from them and toward a "solution in search of a problem".

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

I find it interesting I have read that WinnFabs was created in part by two of the principles in the Littlefield accident that MAY have been linked to the cause of the accident...it is my opinion that the entire Speed Limits push was nothing more than a red herring to shift public opinion away from them and toward a "solution in search of a problem".

You should also notice that Thurston Marine is one of the chief proponent of the speed limits. They broke away from the NH Marine Trade Assoc. because the assoc. is against the speed limits. Their rentals have cause more problems other than the PWC rentals on the lake than any rentals that I know. I also think Thurston's was also trying to shift public opinion of them.

[VtSteve]

Obviously, the dramatic recession and the weather conspired to limit boating nationwide. Sales plummeted this year again, and limited access to loans, adjusting the required loan to value (LTV) turned away bargain shoppers that probably shouldn't have looked in the first place. Our slips were full as usual, but out on the lake it was noticeably quiet all the way through Labor Day weekend, which was pretty good weather-wise. I don't expect the boat industry to come back quickly, as many dealers are build to order operations now, with the floorplan costs so high.

So many boats, and expensive ones at that, were purchased the last few years through home equity LOC's and refi cash-outs. Obviously, I wouldn't plan on that coming back too soon. There were places I could visit this year that are usually crazy in a normal summer. But in June and July, nobody had much desire to do much of anything. The incredible paydown of credit card debt was a clear indication that people were tightening, and understood that further spending could sink them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next summer, assuming we have one It won't stay quiet forever, it never does.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

You make very good points with numbers to support them. I hope things improve for your business...People are seeing signs of this and I hope they're right. We're having a little construction done and can see the builders are really hurting. Many people on forum are attributing all the change on the lake to weather and economy, and while they may contribute, I would add the following. August weather was great, and I boated more in August than I can remember. Secondly, gas prices, according to what people have said on this forum, are a major contributor to how much people boat. Now 9.7%/6.9%US/NH unemployment is not good, and many of the other 90.3%/93.1% have also been affected, but there are many on the lake who have been somewhat insulated(and I'm sorry it's not you)....many on pensions, many in the public and medical sectors, etc., etc.,and many who come to Winni are probably better off than the average person. There were many days in August when the traffic near me seemed almost normal; my point is that their behavior was different. The previously described GFBL's screaming 150' past the fisherman at 70 MPH were pretty much gone for example. As much as some on the forum would deny it, it can't all be explained by the economy and weather. The manner in which people are boating has changed for the better, even if fewer are boating. Good luck with your business...next year should be better.

Business in and of itself is fine, just down. We did compensate early enough that the bottom line is still the same just sales are down. Thank you for your response. However we have seen a larger hit of people losing their jobs that are in the upper tax brackets, many of our clients have asked to put off work that was scheduled for next year after their portfolios went into the trenches. 76% of our current client base own two or more homes. I agree with MeEscape's post above regarding the toys being the first things to receive neglected attention, same goes for additional dwellings. When the folks that can afford the toys and the second homes start seeing that the ax could make it to their level they cinch up the purse strings and focus money on other things. On the times I was out on the lake this year on both Winni (July 4-5, Aug 15-16 and 29-31) and Sunapee (Sept 5-6) the numbers of boats seemed very low compared to the years past and those were all very good boating days and two were holiday weekends. Working on Sunapee for most of the July and August months the traffic was down considerably even during the week. Maybe some of the cowboys around you are some of the same folks that fall into that current unemployment number.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.

So, is it safety, fear or noise? I guess it is whatever sounds good at the time.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by pm203

So, is it safety, fear or noise? I guess it is whatever sounds good at the time.

It is all three plus many more. And most of them come down to the direction the lake is headed in. The bigger, faster, louder, more power, "get out of my way" trend must be reversed.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It is all three plus many more. And most of them come down to the direction the lake is headed in. The bigger, faster, louder, more power, "get out of my way" trend must be reversed.

But how does a speed limit do that?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

But how does a speed limit do that?

A horsepower limit would do it better. However a speed limit will....

set a standard
change the lakes direction a little
give the Marine Patrol another enforcement tool against Capt. B
pressure people to buy less powerful boats
pressure the "need for speed" crowd to go elsewhere
make the lake less desirable to Capt. B
it might even slow some people down

[pm203]

BI, I think they call that wishful thinking.

[pm203]

No Regrets,

Excellent post! Everybody does need to get along. There are many times when I find sail boats to be a pain. I don't form an organization and try to get them banned. I respect them and their right to use the lake. Unfortunately, everybody does not share that opinion.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

A horsepower limit would do it better. However a speed limit will....

set a standard
change the lakes direction a little
give the Marine Patrol another enforcement tool against Capt. B
pressure people to buy less powerful boats
pressure the "need for speed" crowd to go elsewhere
make the lake less desirable to Capt. B
it might even slow some people down

You have a very liberal interpretation of Capt. B. The vast majority of Capt. B's I've encountered are not boats that I'd consider fast, nor were they generally going fast when acting poorly. I'm not saying there aren't any, just vastly outnumbered by the hoards of smaller, slower boats doing stupid things on the lake.

I contend that the vast majority of these boneheads you talk about, are unaffected by the SL law. The only thing that would discourage boneheads is to have the MP's stop them all the time, and ticket them. Mostly, they wouldn't be stopped for speeding. I think your still in the hope and pray mode, while others are looking for tangible solutions. Not knocking what you're saying, but you're hoping a speed limit law will make some boats go elsewhere, and even discourage bad boaters in general to go elsewhere.

That's just having a law of some kind and see if it works on anything. Scatter gun legislation is better than not at all? Not in my book.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It is all three plus many more. And most of them come down to the direction the lake is headed in. The bigger, faster, louder, more power, "get out of my way" trend must be reversed.

The trend has already been reversed. And, its not by the speed limit. I think the economy and weather has alot to do with it. I find that the smaller boats with uneducated boaters have more of the " get out of my way" mentality. They are the real cowboys of the lake.

[NoRegrets]

PM203 - I agree with you that the smaller boats are a much bigger problem!

Bear Islander is very true to his perspectives and correct in his logic. Thank you for that! I am sorry VT Steve that you have some sort of self imposed no posting policy going (I hope it is short lived!). There is plenty of goading but it seems to correct itself after some entertaining bantering!!!

The diverse opinions being written about by all are finally defining the real issue. This is not the only place in the country where sharing resources have created actions that are being debated. This forum is unique where it allows people to communicate and vent for both entertainment and education. We are really lucky to have it!

The population is crowding more people into desirable spaces. Trying to ration who and how people enjoy the lake is wrong! One can whine and beg all they want but the lake is public for the benefit of all. It has great history and is the only resource of this size that should be able to accommodate those that choose to rev it up a bit. The slippery slope that the Speed Limit Law offers is that it may never stop until only man powered crafts or swimmers are allowed to use the lake. I feel the smallest group is the first to be attacked or ruled out, next they will go for the cruisers, then the boats on trailers, etc. It may never stop until those that control the media or politicians have their exclusive lake without the all the inconveniences mentioned.

Go for the boneheads, rude, and un-educated and all will follow. I have no problem with bigger, faster, or more powerful equipment. I think it is amazing how technology and materials can support specialty vessels that some enjoy. The louder (already governed by law) and “get out of my way” issues should be addressed. Speed limits hurt many law abiding people that have the same rights as the rest of us have (for now!).

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

They then argued that if the "entire lake" had limits then we would see an entirely different set of statistial results (because GFB would have no where to hide).

Well now that still hasn't happened. And if you read back on threads even before the test zones it was said that what supporters would do, as soon as the data showed speeding was not a problem, is they would jump on their soap box and state: "Hey look how well they are working"

The problem is that they set themselves up to have no measure of effectiveness for the law. When you are measuring the effectiveness like this, you have to have in advance an idea of what success is and what failure is. If lots of tickets is a success, then no tickets cannot also be success. It is possible for something to be incorrect, no matter how much you want it to be correct. To refuse to acknowledge that there is a measure in which something could fail is poor form.

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.

The economy started spiraling last fall, with Lehman Brothers being the first real sign we were in trouble. That was one year ago yesterday. This season has been quieter for two reasons: weather & economy. You have blinders on if you don't believe that. In June, 23 out of 30 days were rainy. July was similar. August was beautiful, but by that time a lot of people give up. The same thing happens at ski mountains; if December & January are warm/snow free, then even if February/March are awesome, the numbers for those months are still down.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

More importantly a law that has a "Perceived Effect." This is my biggest problem with the law and the supporters of the law. They use terms like the lake is quieter, and less busy, and safer in their arguments for a Speed Limit. I am sorry but Laws are enacted to curb a specific problem. This law has supporters because of the PERCEIVED side effects. That is ridiculous in my opinion. 1 ticket? No statistics? Just hearsay. If this were a courtroom it would be thrown out before the jury had a chance to hear the case.

Just my humble opinion

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

Quantum leap? Why don't you lie down on the couch and tell the doctor all about it.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

It's no wonder people like you don't want the sunset provision to wait for the data. Next year will kill you. Boat sales are already higher, used prices have climbed. I think you're enjoying the best of your solitude.

Come over here where it's almost always quiet, the fish are bigger, and the wind is better.

People on this forum know the statistics just fine. The trouble is with you, you're scared of the stats. You know tht between this year and next you'll be proven wrong, again. You also know that there's a real movement to help the MP get the boneheads off the lake or better trained.

People have come a long way since Littlefield, but obviously, not all. Don't be a knuckle dragger all your life, help out for a good cause.

Signed

A Good Samaritan

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper).

Hummm, unemployment at record high levels, gasoline at $3.00 gal on the water, worst summer weather in years, ya I would guess is a bit quieter,,,

Personally the only time I ever see any significant amount of high speed traffic (over 45 MPH) on the lake is Saturdays at the peak of the season and when the weather is very good. And if I'm not in the mood to deal with it, "I" stay home. I dont run out to rally a group of knuckleheads to support my cause to pass a law to outlaw whatever annoys me on any particular day.

I guess the other part of my problem with the whole speed limit issue is that I don’t automatically associate speed (over 45 MPH) with reckless operation.

There are days when the water is flat I can cruise the Merrimack River at 65 MPH and I have no issues with safety. There are other days when the wind is blowing that I have a tough ride on Winnipesaukee at 35 MPH.

Reckless operation has always been a problem everywhere there are boats and we already have regulations that deal with it. And though it is a bit of a subjective call if someone is operating unsafely, in my mind so is the concept of universal safe speed limits.

Some boats and operators can cruise at 70 MPH without incident, others are unsafe at ANY speed.

I think anyone can make the call that passing an anchored boat at "close distance" (say 50 feet) at 70 MPH is reckless operation, but what is a safe speed for all boats and operators under all conditions, well thats not so easy to define without illegitimately curtailing our freedoms.

Who among us is a legitimate expert in small powerboat marine safety??? I’m guessing no one,,,

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

There are days when the water is flat I can cruise the Merrimack River at 65 MPH and I have no issues with safety. There are other days when the wind is blowing that I have a tough ride on Winnipesaukee at 35 MPH.

And there are some nights when I can safely do 110 MPH on Rt. 95 (but I don't and I'm glad that for the most part neither do others).

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

And there are some nights when I can safely do 110 MPH on Rt. 95 (but I don't and I'm glad that for the most part neither do others).

I fully agree, but the 65 mph speed limit on Rt 95 does nothing to make the road safer, the roadway is safe because people operate safely.

I would similarly argue that the people who drive 45 mph on Rt 95 present as much of a threat as the ones who drive 110 mph, the issue is not any specific number, its reasonableness of the speed for the location, situation, and conditions. And I think thats even more the case for boats where you dont have specific striped lanes and other very detailed nav aids.

So again I would argue, speed limits do not ensure safety, safe operation is the key to success and no law can absolutely ensure either adherence to a speed limit or that any individual will operate safely.

At some level we all have to assume some risk in the use of boats, cars, hell just walking across the street can be risky. Life has risks, but piling law after law that restrict the many, in the name of appeasing the few rarely accomplishes anything except to further clog the legal system and deprive the citizens of their freedom.

Well that’s one persons opinion,,,

But then what do I know, I have "only" been accident and ticket free on the water for 45+ years,,,

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

I think you missed typed and either meant to shorten the 150' legal distance or maybe you are trying to suggest that you prefer to get back to nature with nothing but peace and quiet. Either way the lake is not a reserved haven for exclusive use of the few. It is one of the states greatest assets that attracts many from diverse cultural, economic, and view point differences. We are not trying not to judge how ones personal preference is better than anothers.

The lake being so large is unique since it can support such a vast array of sporting activities. Divers get a chance to test deep water, Sailers can let loose for long blows(can you tell I am not a sailer?), fishing for those that choose can be thrilling, and the surrounding towns have embraced all and encourage tourism. I don't see how we can allow a restrictive law exist that intends to eliminate a certain class of sportsman. I do not believe it is appropriate for our state to do this for this huge public resource. Safety is an issue, noise is already governed, and fear is controllable.

I believe this thread was an attempt to eliminate the statistical twisting that some of the previous surveys encountered. Should the speed limit stay or go? I do not believe it does any good so get rid of it. My opinion only.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

I think you have "statistics" confused with poll results in this context. The statistics that others are referring to is the fact that there is no evidence of a speed problem on the lake, it is a perceived problem. How can I say this? Well, one statistic in particular shows that there has not been a single death on the lake that was directly caused by a high speed. Another statistic based on data gathered by the MP during the test period also led MP to conclude that speed was not a problem on the lake.

And to the bolded above, it may not be a "perceived" side effect, but it certainly could be a side effect of a speed limit. But you don't know that. One could argue that that particular side effect isn't even a side effect at all...it was one of the primary goals of implementing the speed limit.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

While I see your premise to your arguement, however this is where your position goes off the rails.

1. the lake is quieter due to the economy nothing more. There have been story after story on WMUR that people have not see vacancy's like this in years and tourism is at one if its all time lows. Marinas have had terrible sales figures and resturants are also feeling the pinch. Showing that it is quieter not due to limits but lack of people of all boating types.

2. The winnfabs pushed for the speed limit test zones and were disappointed in the results. The MP stated on the floor of the House that the test zone data proved (as they had said all along) there is not a speeding problem on our big lake. It is lack of education and adherence to existing rules.

The winnfabs again argued that the reason there was little to no speeding was because the GFB just avoided the test zones. Now whether that was a ploy or not is irrelevant.

They then argued that if the "entire lake" had limits then we would see an entirely different set of statistial results (because GFB would have no where to hide).

Well now that still hasn't happened. And if you read back on threads even before the test zones it was said that what supporters would do, as soon as the data showed speeding was not a problem, is they would jump on their soap box and state: "Hey look how well they are working"

That may be your opinion and that is perfectly fine. However it was not the intention or the arguement made for the 2 year test period by the people that pushed for them.

The arguement was: Put them into effect and see how many we catch to make the lake safer. NOT, put them in effect and no one will speed.

So although you may "feel" safer, the reasoning of the supporters (winnfabs) has been proven wrong.

My personal opinion is that they had no intention of trying to prove anything with any data and either way they were going to push for 'permanent' limits.

Lets just hope that the Legislature can take of their blind folds and see this progression for themselves.

[Turtle Boy]

As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.

So you also think then that the accumulation of data was a ploy then and part of their agenda?

Also, you don't feel the economy has nothing to do with the lack of boats on the lake?

Just wondering your opinion.

[pm203]

The bottom line for me is that of all of the high performance boats I know of, none have left the lake, and none are doing anything differently. So, how can the lake be any quieter? In fact, I have noticed some additional HP boats on the lake this year. The Marine Patrol has always stated that speed was never an issue. The issue is a very small group of selfish, self-centered individuals trying to avenge the death of their friend. And, what's worse, maybe using this tragedy not to avenge, but for their own personal benefit to get what they really want, another Golden Pond and the lake to themselves.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by pm203

The bottom line for me is that of all of the high performance boats I know of, none have left the lake, and none are doing anything differently. So, how can the lake be any quieter?

If none of the owner's of the GFBL's that you know are doing anything differently, yet he sees a huge difference this year in GFBL behavior, then maybe the issue is that your friends are behaving more badly (read "breaking the law") than the average GFBL owner. As El said, wouldn't it be nice if all of us could pick and choose which laws to obey. This is why Speed Limits will be here to stay. As far as a small group wanting the lake to themselves, you're as welcome as anyone else...and the compromise of 45/25 allows you to go very fast still (though I don't understand all the grumbling about the SL if the SL hasn't changed yours or your friends behavior one bit).

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

(though I don't understand all the grumbling about the SL if the SL hasn't changed yours or your friends behavior one bit).

Funny, How it changes your behavior....................................

[MeEscape]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.

Just for the record, the Dow Jones Index didn’t drop until October 2008, after most boats were out of the water, unemployment was in the low 6’s through November (it is now at 9.5), there was not a recognized faltering economy during the 2008 boating season in New Hampshire.

People who can spend six figures plus for GFBL’s are not affected by fluctuations in the price of gasoline which causes them to pay maybe a couple of [hundred] bucks more for a fill up, they are effected by a seven figure hit to their portfolios or a lost job.

Proof of this is the price of boats, new and used, fell in the September/October 2008 time frame, after the market fell and at the time gas prices were also falling.

There are fewer boats on the lake this year because toys tend to be sold off before people give up their homes.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.

Am I mistaken or does Turtle Boy consistently drag my personal life, my job into the debate.

Because my grasp on the polling data or the statistics differs from your opinion does not make you the least bit correct. Nor does my profession have any validity in this discussion. What is it that you do for a living and how does it affect this debate?

I'm trying Don... Really I am....

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I'm trying Don... Really I am....

Sounds like Hazelnut got taken out to the woodshed (and I don't mean the restaurant in Moultonboro).

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Sounds like Hazelnut got taken out to the woodshed (and I don't mean the restaurant in Moultonboro).

Actually NO! Again TB you are wrong. I reached out to Don as a good faith effort last week. He and I had a very nice chat about some of the tactics used by BOTH sides on this board. I told him that I would do my best to keep the conversation positive and avoid the traps and misdirections by certain members of this forum. We agreed that both sides needed to stick to the facts and avoid personal attacks. Again after very very long detailed messages and conversation with Don I sympathized with the monumental task Don has wading through all the B.S.

My quote that you misrepresented was directed to show Don that certain members (you) are using snippy personal attacks. So as I mentioned in a post earlier that I would work to keep on topic. Your comments are making it VERY hard to do TB.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Sounds like Hazelnut got taken out to the woodshed (and I don't mean the restaurant in Moultonboro).

Don't drag the woodshed into your post, even if it is supposed to be sarcastic. not kidding.

[OCDACTIVE]

Alot of votes have been cast.... Hard to argue with that.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Alot of votes have been cast.... Hard to argue with that.

Oh OCD silly man. Those votes were all cast by people who we recruited from other sites such as OSO. No to mention that they were cast by scofflaws. Each vote was cast by a GFBL boat owner with an agenda. Haven't you heard. Keep this in mind too, www.winnipesaukee.com is a GFBL site that only has readers and posters who own 100MPH GFBL boats. So the poll is null and void.

I think that about covers the replies that should be coming in 5..4..3..2..

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Oh OCD silly man. Those votes were all cast by people who we recruited from other sites such as OSO. No to mention that they were cast by scofflaws. Each vote was cast by a GFBL boat owner with an agenda. Haven't you heard. Keep this in mind too, www.winnipesaukee.com is a GFBL site that only has readers and posters who own 100MPH GFBL boats. So the poll is null and void.

I think that about covers the replies that should be coming in 5..4..3..2..

Sounds like the teacher needs to go to this site so as to understand some of the basic principles of polling:
http://www.notrain-nogain.org/Train/Exer/Num/poll.asp
The forum's results differ significantly from a state poll and from,
say, certain road associations previously mentioned who unanimously voted to send money to Winnfabs.

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

the basic principles of polling:
http://www.notrain-nogain.org/Train/Exer/Num/poll.asp

The best lines here are "Self-selecting polls only report the results of people who cared one way or another to either call a particular number, reply by email or are willing to be interviewed in person in a public place (think of mall surveys). The results cannot be generalized beyond those who choose to answer." and "The results of random samples can be applied to a larger group because every person in the study group had an equal opportunity to be selected."

How appropriate to the present case were we have a small group conducting their own self-selecting polls and trying to generalize the results across the entire population, while at the same time trying to discredit a large scale broad based random poll properly conducted by a well known, legitimate, and unbiased polling expert, because those results do not suit their goals. Imagine them telling a legislator, "We polled ourselves and 60% of the GFBL crowd agrees that the SL should sunset, while the other 40% of us think the limits should just be raised."

[OCDACTIVE]

so I heard from a friend that they only have 6 radar guns that have been issued to the MP due to budget cut backs. But only 4 officers are currently trained to use them. Anyone know if that is true?

[Kracken]

I was at Channel Marine last weekend, very sad as there were a lot of people taking their boats out for the season. The disturbing part was many of them got for sale signs. I have never seen anything like it. Apparently many boaters are calling it quits. The economy seems to be taking its toll, although I am sure that will be debated as well.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

I was at Channel Marine last weekend, very sad as there were a lot of people taking their boats out for the season. The disturbing part was many of them got for sale signs. I have never seen anything like it. Apparently many boaters are calling it quits. The economy seems to be taking its toll, although I am sure that will be debated as well.

You should have Polled them..

I am hooking the boat up tomorrow for the 9 hour journey south.. On the way back hitting atlantic city.. want to go?

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

You should have Polled them..

I am hooking the boat up tomorrow for the 9 hour journey south.. On the way back hitting atlantic city.. want to go?

So how far south are you going? Nine hours from the lake puts you in Dover, Delaware at best....or worst in southern NJ. NB

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

So how far south are you going? Nine hours from the lake puts you in Dover, Delaware at best....or worst in southern NJ. NB

9 hours will put me in Richmond VA.. I hope.. :-)

Going a bit out of Richmond in a place called Charles City.. Maybe get a ride on a 37 AThunder with twin 525's..

[Lakepilot]

In 9 hours you won't be anywhere near Richmond. With luck, you'll be past Baltimore.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Lakepilot

In 9 hours you won't be anywhere near Richmond. With luck, you'll be past Baltimore.

Maybe we should place some bets...... Or better yet start a poll!! LOL

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

9 hours will put me in Richmond VA.. I hope.. :-)

Going a bit out of Richmond in a place called Charles City.. Maybe get a ride on a 37 AThunder with twin 525's..

Google maps says that is will take you 10hrs 15mins if you go I-95 S and 11hrs 25 mins if you go I-90 W
Therefore I think it will take you 10 hrs if you go I-95 S.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

Google maps says that is will take you 10hrs 15mins if you go I-95 S and 11hrs 25 mins if you go I-90 W
Therefore I think it will take you 10 hrs if you go I-95 S.

You are going on the assumption I am leaving from Moultonboro and that I drive the speed Limit

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

so I heard from a friend that they only have 6 radar guns that have been issued to the MP due to budget cut backs. But only 4 officers are currently trained to use them. Anyone know if that is true?

In one of the SL hearings, one of the Winfabs 'fat cat' offered to donate money for radar guns. There is no evidence of that.

I do know that the marine patrol budget was cut and that buying laser guns and training of officers have limited the hirings. I will try to find the article in the Concord Monitor.

[BroadHopper]

I recently started using this for directions and find it pretty slick! Try it!

It calculated from Moultonboro, NH to Charles City, VA as a 693.3 mile trip in 10 hrs and 47 mins. That's my bet!

[Kracken]

Our Founding Fathers were brilliant in the design of this nation. They had the insight to set this country up as a nation of states. Each state would be independent and able to decide their own policies and laws based on its individual needs.

That same model SHOULD be used here. I would suggest that if you have people with little to no stake in the outcome they will vote either selfishly or out of ignorance. If the same people that were polled for their speed limit input were asked other questions like:

Should headlights be required at night? (Brilliant example Hazelnut)
Should boat registrations be tripled to help gap the budget deficit?
Should lakeshore property taxes be tripled?
Should all boats that produce greenhouse gasses be banned on inland waterways?

People with no stake in the lakes region would probably vote yes to all these questions. If you wanted to do a poll that gave an accurate barometer of the issues you would only ask the people who had a stake in the outcome. In this case the correct sample would be residents of the towns that boarder the lake and all registered boaters.

Somebody once said “Only tax payers should be able to vote”. While that comment seems outrageous at first glance, think about where we might be as a country if that was the reality.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Sounds like the teacher needs to go to this site so as to understand some of the basic principles of polling:
http://www.notrain-nogain.org/Train/Exer/Num/poll.asp
The forum's results differ significantly from a state poll and from,
say, certain road associations previously mentioned who unanimously voted to send money to Winnfabs.

Yet again calling my profession into the argument. Will you please stop? How many times do I have to ask? Could you just stop? Seriously?

Let me explain something in the simplest terms for you and elchase. This has been said over and over again on this forum. While I understand that you see no validity in any poll taken on this site I see even less validity on a statewide poll. The poll was taken statewide as you have said. Why the heck would we or anyone care what a resident of lets say Salem New Hampshire thinks about a speed limit on a lake they have never been to? Explain to me why those people should have ANY say on what recreation takes place on this lake?

Do you have any faith that if I created a poll restricting the uses of sailboats on the lake that the results would come back in your favor? Especially if the question was posed to non boaters who have never visited this lake? Do you understand that concept? Is it really that hard to understand? I am reasonably confident that I could create a question that could be posed to the general New Hampshire public that would result in showing that New Hampshire residents favor some sort of restrictions on sailboats.

Here is another example that may help you and elchase: Most non boaters that visit my camp are ABSOLUTELY BLOWN AWAY that I drive my boat at night without headlights! So tell me how hard would it be for me to create a poll that asks "Should all boats should be required to use headlights on the lake at night," and get results that favor headlight use on the lake?

Does that example make it more clear for you? I'm in teacher mode now.

So while you put stock in your statewide poll, I'll put stock in the poll answered by boaters who boat on the actual lake in question. While both polls have their flaws I'd rather see a Lake Winnipesaukee ONLY poll done by the Citizen or another paper. The first question should be do you or have you used Lake Winnipesaukee for recreational purposes. If the answer is no then it is an immediate disconnect.

Your constant mention of my profession in your comments is tiresome as I mentioned already. But I will consider this a teachable moment for you. Your understanding and interpretation of polls and polling is limited at best. Your faith in the statewide poll is confirmation of this fact.

Furthermore the polls on this site are of course not "official" in any sense of the word. I do understand that this is just an informal survey. My point is that I put just as much stock into this poll as you do in the statewide poll. At least I know that the replies on this site come from boaters. That is FAR more than I can say about the statewide poll.

[NoRegrets]

The polls are up to the honesty and integrety of everyone on the forum. I have faith in all. Those that choose to cheat the system are the handicaped low-life loosers. Anyone that takes devious actions to gain any point not only hurt all but will eventually eat away at their spiritual peace. There is no value in tryng to taint the results and cast suspiscion on the process. Let the polititions continue to lie and cheat us but let the boaters enjoy the sport as free as possible! Get back to the real statistics that are creating the problem and make sure the media starts to report solid facts that point out the b'head problems.

[Airwaves]

how hard would it be for me to create a poll that asks "Should all boats should be required to use headlights on the lake at night," and get results that favor headlight use on the lake?

I REALLY like that idea. I wish we had a statewide platform to do it just to prove the point!

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Yet again calling my profession into the argument. Will you please stop? How many times do I have to ask? Could you just stop? Seriously?
Let me explain something in the simplest terms for you and elchase.

Let me explain something in the simplest terms for you. Your profession tweaked the Turtle family's interest last year when you opined at length about the validity of forum polls. We were intrigued that someone(a teacher, no less) who spelled poll incorrectly (no, it's not spelled pole) felt so entitled to rant about whether a self poll on a boating forum might indeed have any significant validity. Since that time, the only progress you have made in this arena has been that you learned how to spell the word correctly.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Your constant mention of my profession in your comments is tiresome as I mentioned already.

Less entertaining than the poll/pole spelling difficulties is the following. We have all heard mention on this forum that perhaps there is a correlation between those who are dominating, intimidating, and rude on the forum and those who might act similarly on the lake. This kind of behavior from you directed at anyone who disagrees with your beliefs, whether it be me, EL, Evenstar (really nasty stuff you unleashed at her...you should be ashamed), or anyone else I suppose can be tolerated...we're adults and can look after ourselves. What concerns me is...well...do you treat your students in such a belittling manner? These kids might have no other choice than to endure such behavior. Kids are impressionable...what they see is sometimes what they imitate.
Finally I would add that your extreme dependence on those irritating laughing smiley faces to be able to express your thoughts seems odd (given your profession). It brings to mind the expression "Why can't Johnny read"?
So...this is why I have invoked your profession as being relevant to this discussion.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Maybe we should place some bets...... Or better yet start a poll!! LOL

I have driven to Atlanta several times from NH. Traveling at around 70 MPH, I have found that Richmond is almost always 12 hours away. Depends on time of day of course.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by chipj29

I have driven to Atlanta several times from NH. Traveling at around 70 MPH, I have found that Richmond is almost always 12 hours away. Depends on time of day of course.

Leaving at 3 AM.. hoping to make it thru NY early... Will have to see.. My buddy has done it 8 times in the past 3 years and normally he is 9 - 10... Will let you know..

I thought we were going to start a poll??? But of course it won't be valid if it doesn't go my way..

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

The polls are up to the honesty and integrety (sic) of everyone on the forum.

You mean the scofflaws who brag about ignoring and breaking our boating laws, or the cheerleaders who high-five them for it?

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Yet again calling my profession into the argument. Will you please stop? How many times do I have to ask? Could you just stop? Seriously?

You call others much much worse, and refuse to stop when they ask. You called me a liar (and never gave that promised apology). Why are you embarrassed by your profession? Teaching is a noble vocation. Wear the title with pride. It is your logic (and spelling) that you should be embarrassed about.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Why the heck would we or anyone care what a resident of lets (sic) say Salem New Hampshire thinks about a speed limit on a lake they have never been to? Explain to me why those people should have ANY say on what recreation takes place on this lake?

Simple, because Winnipesaukee is THEIR lake. Why do retired people go to town meetings to vote on the school budget? Why do landowners who don't hunt post their land? Why did Northerners object to slavery? People have a right (and duty) to opine about and take part in the management of the things in which they have a vested interest. And contrary to your opinion, a vested interest in a lake does not require a Boater's Certificate. Every citizen of NH is effected by the goings-on at Lake Winnipesaukee. If you cannot appreciate that, then you really may be in the wrong profession.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I am reasonably confident that I could create a question that could be posed to the general New Hampshire public that would result in showing that New Hampshire residents favor some sort of restrictions on sailboats.

There has already been one...the same ARG poll. It applies equally to ALL boats. The Lake's owners favor (by 83% to 9%, with a +/-3% margin of error), that sail boats cannot go over 45MPH. I respect and abide by that. If polled, I'm sure that NH's residents would probably be near unanimous in support of our existing inclusion of sailors in our DUI law. And I respect and abide by that. I have no problem with reasonable limits on sailing, and I accept what society decides those reasonable limits should be. I would not want to be out their doing something that offends or endangers the rest of society. Maybe that's just me. And I recognize that "society" in NH includes ALL of NH's citizens, even if they live in Salem. What you want is akin to polling NAMBLA and asking if it is ok to sleep with little boys, and saying, "Why the heck would we or anyone care what a heterosexual woman thinks about man-boy love?

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Most non boaters that visit my camp are ABSOLUTELY BLOWN AWAY that I drive my boat at night without headlights!

If 83% of Winnipesaukee's owners wanted boats to have headlights at night, I would be the first to have headlights installed, even if the law did not require. But maybe that's just me. I prefer to fit into society rather than buck it. But based on the posts we see in these Anti-Speed Limit threads, even if the law was changed to require headlights, many of you would be driving around with your headlights shut-off, for no reason except to buck society, and bragging about it on this forum, and the rest would be high-fiving you. Then when one of you killed someone or drove aground, you'd excuse it because he was drunk.

Originally Posted by hazelnut

So while you put stock in your statewide poll, I'll put stock in the poll answered by boaters

It has nothing to do with "stock". It is purely statistics. I can't believe a teacher, of all people, cannot understand statistics. Do you skip over the evolution chapters in your science books and give your kids hand-outs about intelligent design too?

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Your understanding and interpretation of polls and polling is limited at best. Your faith in the statewide poll is confirmation of this fact.

Wow. This one is going in the Whacky Post HOF. Now I'm really glad I sent my kids to private school.

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Would you support some form of additional tax or fee to support the Marine Patrol in efforts specifically targeted to stop BUI and obvious dangerous violations on the water?

I think the fines from DUI, speed limit, and other boating law violations should be given back directly to the MP. At the present, some guy in Salem who has never even boated on Lake Winnipesaukee is helping to pay for our MP enforcement (as he should, since he is an equal owner of the lake), but it is always fairer to society when the violators of our laws are forced to pay for law enforcement, IMO. It inspires law enforcement to do their jobs, and it reduces taxes (statewide).

[OCDACTIVE]

so anyone taking bets on the driving time?

[hazelnut]

The last two posts by Turtleboy and elchase do nothing but further my points. The ironic part is that they are patting themselves on the back for well thought out informative posts. The reality is that both of you come off less and less intelligent with each post and as usual regress to snippiness and personal attacks. You have no new information and your interpretation of the old information is comical. The headlight analogy was used puposefully as a ludicrous example. The fact that you would consider the adoption of the use of headlights IF a law was passed further proves your limited knowledge of boating as a whole. The fact that you don't understand that headlight use at night would pose a significant safety hazzard perplexes me. The sole reason I used the example. To me it immediately discredits any opinion you may have related to boating.

Thanks for doing nothing but proving my points over and over again.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Let me explain something in the simplest terms for you. Your profession tweaked the Turtle family's interest last year when you opined at length about the validity of forum polls. We were intrigued that someone(a teacher, no less) who spelled poll incorrectly (no, it's not spelled pole) felt so entitled to rant about whether a self poll on a boating forum might indeed have any significant validity. Since that time, the only progress you have made in this arena has been that you learned how to spell the word correctly.



Less entertaining than the poll/pole spelling difficulties is the following. We have all heard mention on this forum that perhaps there is a correlation between those who are dominating, intimidating, and rude on the forum and those who might act similarly on the lake. This kind of behavior from you directed at anyone who disagrees with your beliefs, whether it be me, EL, Evenstar (really nasty stuff you unleashed at her...you should be ashamed), or anyone else I suppose can be tolerated...we're adults and can look after ourselves. What concerns me is...well...do you treat your students in such a belittling manner? These kids might have no other choice than to endure such behavior. Kids are impressionable...what they see is sometimes what they imitate.
Finally I would add that your extreme dependence on those irritating laughing smiley faces to be able to express your thoughts seems odd (given your profession). It brings to mind the expression "Why can't Johnny read"?
So...this is why I have invoked your profession as being relevant to this discussion.

As a part time college professor and business statistic was my profession for 40 years, I beg to differ.................

Sorry, but I must add validity to our profession.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

. This kind of behavior from you directed at anyone who disagrees with your beliefs, whether it be me, EL, Evenstar (really nasty stuff you unleashed at her...you should be ashamed), or anyone else I suppose can be tolerated...we're adults and can look after ourselves. What concerns me is...well...do you treat your students in such a belittling manner? These kids might have no other choice than to endure such behavior. Kids are impressionable...what they see is sometimes what they imitate.
Finally I would add that your extreme dependence on those irritating laughing smiley faces to be able to express your thoughts seems odd (given your profession). It brings to mind the expression "Why can't Johnny read"?
So...this is why I have invoked your profession as being relevant to this discussion.

You can not just state something and wish it to be true. I unleashed NOTHING nasty on anyone on here ever. Go ahead and prove it. I said nothing on here to anyone at any time that wasn't said directly at me.

Again you call in to the argument how I do my job. It has no relevance on this forum. I am filing a formal complaint to the moderator as we speak. Constantly calling my job into the argument while questioning my intelligence crosses the line I'm afraid.

Here are a few smiley faces for you TB: I use them to show emotion. They are called emoticons. Look it up. Uusually used to show how I am feeling when I type the message. For example the smiley face: Usually shows that I am happy and having fun while I type. Like this:

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

so anyone taking bets on the driving time?

OCD, I am going to jump in the fray and take your bet, because you will be hitting NJ at 7:00am and you will lose that additional half hour putting you over 10 hours.

If I am right I would like a ride in that scary GFBL you have (I will hopefully be docked accross from from the Naswa at Channel). If you win I owe you a few cold ones.

The highway speed is faster than average, all smaller roads are average (you are towing a boat)

Time Mile Instruction For Toward
Summary: 630.4 miles (9 hours, 32 minutes)
3:00 AM 0.0 Depart Concord on US-202 [US-3] (North) 142 yds
3:00 AM 0.1 Turn RIGHT (East) onto SR-9 [Loudon Rd] 0.2 mi
3:00 AM 0.3 Take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-93 [Everett Tpke] 3.4 mi I-93
3:04 AM 3.6 *Toll road* Stay on I-93 [Everett Tpke] (South-East) 7.8 mi
3:11 AM 11.5 Keep LEFT onto I-293 [Everett Tpke] 8.1 mi I-293 / Everett Turnpike South / Manchester / Nashua
3:19 AM 19.6 *Toll road* Road name changes to Everett Tpke 9.9 mi Everett Turnpike South / Merrimack / Nashua
3:29 AM 29.4 At exit 10, stay on Everett Tpke (South) 3.4 mi
3:33 AM 32.9 Road name changes to US-3 [Everett Tpke] 14.0 mi
3:40 AM 39.7 Entering Massachusetts
3:47 AM 46.9 At exit 32, keep RIGHT onto Ramp 0.2 mi RT-4 / Westford / Chelmsford
3:47 AM 47.1 At roundabout, take the SECOND exit onto SR-4 [North Rd] 1.5 mi RT-4 / Chelmsford / Acton
3:50 AM 48.6 Take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-495 22.6 mi I-495 / Littleton / Worcester
4:10 AM 71.2 At exit 25B, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-290 20.0 mi I-290 / Worcester
4:26 AM 91.3 At exit 8, turn RIGHT onto Ramp 0.1 mi RT-12 S / Webster
4:26 AM 91.4 Turn LEFT (South) onto Oxford St N 164 yds RT-12 S / Oxford / Webster
4:26 AM 91.5 Bear RIGHT (South-West) onto SR-12 [Southbridge St] 0.1 mi
4:27 AM 91.6 Turn RIGHT onto Ramp 0.4 mi I-90 / Mass Pike / Springfield / Boston
4:27 AM 91.9 Keep LEFT to stay on Ramp 0.4 mi I-90
4:29 AM 92.4 *Toll road* Merge onto I-90 [Mass Pike] 11.4 mi
4:38 AM 103.8 At exit 9, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-84 [Wilbur Cross Hwy] 41.6 mi I-84 / US-20 / Hartford / New York City
4:45 AM 112.2 Entering Connecticut
5:15 AM 145.4 At exit 57, take Ramp (LEFT) onto SR-15 [Wilbur Cross Hwy] 1.1 mi CT-15 / I-91 S / Charter Oak Br / N. Y. City
5:16 AM 146.5 Road name changes to US-5 [SR-15] 0.8 mi
5:17 AM 147.3 At exit 86, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-91 36.5 mi I-91 / New Haven / N. Y. City
5:47 AM 183.9 Take Ramp (LEFT) onto I-95 [Governor John Davis Lodge Tpke] 64.8 mi I-95 / N.Y. City
6:34 AM 231.8 Entering New York
6:50 AM 248.6 At exit 6A, turn RIGHT onto Ramp 0.2 mi I-95 / I-678 / Cross Bronx Exp / Geo Washington Br / Whitestone Br
6:50 AM 248.8 Take Ramp (LEFT) onto I-95 [Cross Bronx Expy] 7.8 mi
6:57 AM 255.3 Entering New Jersey
6:58 AM 256.6 Keep LEFT onto I-95 Express Ln [New Jersey Tpke] 2.6 mi I-95 EXPRESS / New Jersey Turnpike / I-80 / Garden State Parkway
7:01 AM 259.2 Road name changes to I-95 [New Jersey Tpke] 1.5 mi I-95 / New Jersey Turnpike / US-46 / The Ridgefields
7:02 AM 260.7 *Toll road* Stay on I-95 [New Jersey Tpke] (South) 48.8 mi
7:44 AM 309.4 *Toll road* Road name changes to New Jersey Tpke 68.0 mi
8:41 AM 377.5 *Toll road* Road name changes to US-40 [New Jersey Tpke] 0.5 mi
8:41 AM 378.0 *Toll road* Road name changes to I-295 [US-40] 0.4 mi
8:42 AM 378.4 Stay on I-295 [US-40] (West) 5.2 mi
8:42 AM 379.2 Entering Delaware
8:47 AM 383.6 Turn LEFT onto Ramp 0.3 mi I-95
8:47 AM 383.8 Keep LEFT to stay on Ramp 0.5 mi I-95
8:48 AM 384.3 At exit 5, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-95 [Delaware Tpke] 10.1 mi I-95 / Del. Tpke. / Baltimore
8:58 AM 394.5 *Toll road* *Tollbooth* Stay on I-95 [Delaware Tpke] (West) 1.3 mi
8:59 AM 395.8 Entering Maryland
8:59 AM 395.8 Stay on I-95 [John F Kennedy Memorial Hwy] (West) 48.2 mi
9:38 AM 444.0 Keep LEFT onto I-895 [Harbor Tunnel Throughway] 15.1 mi I-895 / Harbor Tunnel Thruway / Annapolis / Bay Bridge
9:53 AM 459.1 Merge onto I-95 18.2 mi
10:08 AM 477.4 At exit 27-25, turn RIGHT onto Ramp 0.4 mi I-495 / US-1 / College Park / Silver Spring
10:08 AM 477.7 At exit 27, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-495 [I-495 Outerloop] 30.1 mi I-495 / Silver Spring
10:24 AM 493.5 Entering Virginia
10:38 AM 507.9 At exit 57A, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-95 85.1 mi I-95 / Richmond
11:53 AM 593.0 At exit 84A, take Ramp (LEFT) onto I-295 14.7 mi I-295 / Rocky Mt NC
12:04 PM 607.6 At exit 28A, take Ramp (RIGHT) onto I-64 4.9 mi I-64 / Norfolk / VA Beach
12:10 PM 612.5 At exit 205, turn RIGHT onto Ramp 0.2 mi VA-33 / VA-249 / US-60 / Bottoms Bridge / Quinton
12:10 PM 612.7 Take Ramp (RIGHT) onto SR-33 [New Kent Hwy] 0.3 mi VA-33 / US-60 / Bottoms Bridge
12:11 PM 613.0 Road name changes to New Kent Hwy 10 yds
12:11 PM 613.0 Bear LEFT (South-East) onto US-60 [Pocahontas Trail] 9.6 mi
12:21 PM 622.6 Turn RIGHT (South) onto SR-155 [N Courthouse Rd] 65 yds
12:22 PM 622.6 Turn LEFT (East) onto SR-155 [Boulevard Rd] 131 yds
12:22 PM 622.7 Bear RIGHT (East) onto SR-155 [S Courthouse Rd] 2.1 mi
12:25 PM 624.8 Keep STRAIGHT onto SR-155 [Courthouse Rd] 5.3 mi
12:31 PM 630.1 Road name changes to Courthouse Rd 0.2 mi
12:32 PM 630.4 Arrive Charles City

SUMMARY
Driving distance: 630.4 miles
Trip duration: 9 hours, 32 minutes
Driving time: 9 hours, 32 minutes
Cost: $122.69

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

You can not just state something and wish it to be true. I unleashed NOTHING nasty on anyone on here ever. Go ahead and prove it. I said nothing on here to anyone at any time that wasn't said directly at me.

Again you call in to the argument how I do my job. It has no relevance on this forum. I am filing a formal complaint to the moderator as we speak. Constantly calling my job into the argument while questioning my intelligence crosses the line I'm afraid.

Here are a few smiley faces for you TB: I use them to show emotion. They are called emoticons. Look it up. Uusually used to show how I am feeling when I type the message. For example the smiley face: Usually shows that I am happy and having fun while I type. Like this:

Question someone's intelligence? You could never do that. Here's some Hazelnutese from May, '08:
"Not only are YOU self centered but you fail at comprehension.
I'll slow it down for you.....
Sorry I'll never ever agree that kayaking in the broads is wise speed limit or no speed limit. I think it is dumb actually".

Calling in the moderator??? Boy, you sure can dish it out, but when someone else gives it back...well, you run for cover behind mommy's skirt.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Question someone's intelligence? You could never do that. Here's some Hazelnutese from May, '08:
"Not only are YOU self centered but you fail at comprehension.
I'll slow it down for you.....
Sorry I'll never ever agree that kayaking in the broads is wise speed limit or no speed limit. I think it is dumb actually".

Calling in the moderator??? Boy, you sure can dish it out, but when someone else gives it back...well, you run for cover behind mommy's skirt.

THAT'S IT?!?!? THAT'S ALL YOU'VE GOT?

Wow I am such a jerk! ha ha ha ha

Yes it is dumb to kayak inthe broads. That is my opinion. I stick to it. What else did I say? Oh yeah I called someone self centered and told them they failed at comprehension.

Wow. So that opens me up to ridicule and allows you to use my profession to belittle me in an argument you are failing at? I am sorry to disagree with you but... I do. Why don't you share with us what you do for a living?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

THAT'S IT?!?!? THAT'S ALL YOU'VE GOT?

Wow I am such a jerk! ha ha ha ha

The fact that TB had to go back a year and a half through all your threads to find that makes it even funnier! Someone has too much time on their hands.

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by codeman671

The fact that TB had to go back a year and a half through all your threads to find that makes it even funnier! Someone has too much time on their hands.

Actually, I started on the last page (page 20 I believe). But all you have to do is go back to July/August of this year!

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I unleashed NOTHING nasty on anyone on here ever.

Hazelnut, you just recently called me a liar. You promised to apologize, but were not woman enough to do it when shown you were wrong. You have time and again shown yourself to be nasty and insulting, then like the others in your group, you tack a few smiley faces at the end of your posts so you can later pretend you were just "razzing" (whatever that means).
The bottom line is that 83% (+/- 3%) of the registered voters of NH (who own the lake, pay for its management, pay higher taxes when it is mismanaged and tourism drops, pay lower taxes when it is better managed and tourism rises, elect the State's legislators, and may or may not use the lake for any one of a wide variety of purposes) want a speed limit on it, and their votes are THE most important influence on the legislators from all around the state...even from Salem. We cannot limit to just votes of boating citizens or to the legislators representing them...not in this country. And the other bottom line is that you guys have polled yourselves and can't even agree amongst yourselves whether we should have any laws at all or should just leave it up to people with no common sense to make their own choices about what is appropriate. Good luck taking that to Concord and good luck in the independent country that you guys form because you need to drive your boats over 45MPH. Just don't base your economy on tourism.