Long Lake night navigation accident

[Weirs guy]

Snipped from APS's quote:
...as he piloted his boat with dual 435-horsepower engines down the lake...

Its all in the spin baby!

My point was more that we should not lay blame for this at the feet of the kind of vessel being operated in the dark by the drunk. Would the victims families feel better had Mr. LaPointe killed their loved ones with a 20' bow rider (thats still capable of 45 MPH without the dual 435-horsepower engines) going to fast and drunk? I doubt it.

[Airwaves]

The latest on the Maine accident from the Sunjournal:
http://www.sunjournal.com/storyupdat...be3f407301#384

[B R]

that link didn't work. here's the latest article on that from the sun journal.

http://www.sunjournal.com/search/story.php?ID=224592

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

"...My point was more that we should not lay blame for this at the feet of the kind of vessel being operated in the dark by the drunk.

The kind of vessel matters:

Would a human being with a 32-foot 90-MPH boat go for a spin only to kill two innocent boaters, toss a friend's teenaged daughter into pitch-black lake waters 1000 feet from shore, and have a driverless boat penetrate 132 feet into a shoreline lined with cabins?

Maine law describes this boat as "a Deadly Weapon". Why would they allow such boats to operate on inland protected waters by sober operators?

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

"...Would the victims families feel better had Mr. LaPointe killed their loved ones with a 20' bow rider (thats still capable of 45 MPH without the dual 435-horsepower engines) going to fast and drunk? I doubt it.

Statistics...Production of Grieving Families by Boat Type in Local Collisions:

Ocean-racers = 3
Bow riders = Zero

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

The kind of vessel matters:

Would a human being with a 32-foot 90-MPH boat go for a spin only to kill two innocent boaters, toss a friend's teenaged daughter into pitch-black lake waters 1000 feet from shore, and have a driverless boat penetrate 132 feet into a shoreline lined with cabins?

Maine law describes this boat as "a Deadly Weapon". Why would they allow such boats to operate on inland protected waters by sober operators?

Statistics...Production of Grieving Families by Boat Type in Local Collisions:

Ocean-racers = 3
Bow riders = Zero

Yes, lets talk about the details...

The boat is an 80mph boat, not a 90mph boat. Having driven a few just like it, and quite possibly the same boat when it was at the dealer new, it is capable of 80-81mph under optimal conditions. Shall I dare ask where you pulled 90mph from??? Probably the same place many of your other stretches of the truth come from. And not that it really makes a particle of difference, the boat is equipped with twin 425hp engines, not 435hp. The media has it wrong. Merc does not make a 435hp engine package. The boat has twin 496 Mag HO's, std equipment.

The accident happened at 45mph according to the article I read, so why do you need to spin this further? Cars are capable of doing over 100mph, yet if an accident happens at 45mph does it get brought up that it is a 100mph car? Nope, just your spin on the situation. The guy was drinking and should not have been behind the wheel. The boat did not do it, the driver did. Boats do not drive themselves last time I checked. And had he been wearing his lanyard the kill switch would have shut the boat down when he was ejected which at least would have prevented the boat from continuing down the lake by itself. Another driver error. The "dead man" as they are called are there for a reason. I once slipped on a wet deck after hitting a wave and hit the floor, had I hit my head and not been wearing my lanyard my boat could have kept going in its path and killed someone. STOP BLAMING THE BOAT!!!!!!!!

If I swerve into another car on the way home at 45mph and killed someone is it my SUV's fault? Unless there was a mechanical malfunction that caused it, it was my fault not the vehicle. If I was drinking? Still the driver. My 8600lb gvw behemoth can touch 100mph, should we bring it up that it is a deadly weapon and should be banned from the road??? Come on...

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Maine law describes this boat as "a Deadly Weapon". Why would they allow such boats to operate on inland protected waters by sober operators?

Maine law also describes cars, ATVs, and even mopeds the same way, if used recklessly. If someone used a sailboat recklessly, causing death to another, the sailboat would be a "deadly weapon", in Maine. The reckless part is the key, not the vehicle.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Cars are capable of doing over 100mph, yet if an accident happens at 45mph does it get brought up that it is a 100mph car?

Excellent point.

[AC2717]

Could not agree more with Codeman, it is not the boat it is the driver!

EVen if the boat was traveling at 10mph it coudl kill someone and not as far, but still runa ashore causing damage to cabins and the shoreline or possible hitting someone on a beach not paying attention.

Probably going to start an argument here, but same with guns, guns do not kill people they are a weapon used by a person to kill something or anotehr person, something has to or be set up to pull a trigger! (by the way I do nto own a gun and thinks fights shoudl be settled with fists not weapons)

So I guess the sailboat which does not really have a rated speed is a dealy weapon at least this boat had a kill switch(even though it was not used) to stop the boat in an emergency, if a sailboat captain gets thrown, what is there to stop the sailboat?

THe "weapon" as it were called is not at fault, no those using the weapon, that is anotehr story, in your case blaming the boat would mean placing the actual thign behind bars or banning them because of a couple of boneheads, on all these threads I have read abotu how bad Go Fasts are, I never see teh research or numbers to back people arguments up. It is a simple case of I do not like them and think they are ridiculous therefore they should not be around. (another point - I do nto have a Go Fast boat nor do I want one, but I do not care what others do with their money, I have a 20 year old bow rider that I enjoy just as much as a Go Fast owner)

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Maine law also describes cars, ATVs, and even mopeds the same way, if used recklessly. If someone used a sailboat recklessly, causing death to another, the sailboat would be a "deadly weapon", in Maine. The reckless part is the key, not the vehicle.

BURN!

Originally Posted by Skip

Ah, a classic case of data manipulation.

For an interesting explanation and pertinent examples of this, go to this wikipedia link and scroll down to the particular paragraphs explaining Data Manipulation.

Thaks ApS for this text book example of Mark Twains often quoted observation: "There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics!"

DOUBLE BURN!

OK APS, lets say that capt drunkie didn't bring his horrible instrument of death to this little lake in Maine, but instead brought it off shore (where you claim it belongs anyway) and did the exact same thing (got drunk, operated too fast for the conditions and hit a smaller vessel killing 2 people and launching the boat onto shore). Do you feel better now that it happen on the ocean where this boat belongs?

Or how about this. He leaves his horrible instrument of death home, borrows a buddies 20' bow rider on this small Maine lake, gets drunk and runs over a smaller vessel killing 2 people. Only this time, thanks to the smaller less powerful boat, the boat does not end up on shore. Still feel better?

Or are you so entrenched in this mentality that these GFBL boats don't belong on YOUR lake that no argument will change your mind?

[Cal]

For those who are narrow minded , with tunnel vision , keep in mind it's ALL this type of boats fault. We all know that a 20' bowrider won't operate at night at 45 mph with a drunk behind the wheel
Anyone with half a mind can see through these twisted figures people are posting for their own agendas. Of course the half a mind part may eliminate a number of politicians

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Skip

"...Thaks ApS for this text book example of Mark Twains often quoted observation: "There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics...!"

Gee...when the 2006 NH Boating Accident report came out, all the "unlimited speeds" crowd were delighted that Winnipesaukee accidents were shown to be decreasing. They were even happier when the Coast Guard statistics for 2005 showed the very same decrease in accidents.

Did anybody make a note that the accident-reporting law had changed the requirement from $500 damage to a new $2000 threshold in 2004?

Now there's one sure-fire technique for New Hampshire—and the Coast Guard, using NH's statistics—to decrease the accident rate! What a great way to support "Unlimited Speeds"!

Who quoted Mark Twain back then?

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...If someone used a sailboat recklessly, causing death to another, the sailboat would be a "deadly weapon", in Maine..."

Yup. Gotta hate those reckless sailboaters.

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

OK APS, lets say that capt drunkie didn't bring his horrible instrument of death to this little lake in Maine, but instead brought it off shore (where you claim it belongs anyway) and did the exact same thing (got drunk, operated too fast for the conditions and hit a smaller vessel killing 2 people and launching the boat onto shore). Do you feel better now that it happen on the ocean where this boat belongs?

You don't see these "instruments of death" offshore.

Big waves make for "stuffs", "hooks" and "flips". It's too salty, too many big things to collide with, makes the anchor dirty, there's toothy things to step on, the graphics get spotted, the salt causes unsightly deposits on the drive coolers, and you have to get knowledgeable about all that navigation stuff.

Originally Posted by Cal

"...For those who are narrow minded , with tunnel vision , keep in mind it's ALL this type of boats fault..."

If there's any tunnel vision on the lake, it's with those who "can't see kayaks". I remember when Lake Winnipesaukee's paddlers, skiers, and sailors didn't have the close calls and tragedies we're witnessing today. (And I have no difficulty seeing kayakers of any size or color).

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...Having driven a few just like it, and quite possibly the same boat when it was at the dealer new, it is capable of 80-81mph under optimal conditions...Cars are capable of doing over 100mph, yet if an accident happens at 45mph does it get brought up that it is a 100mph car? If I swerve into another car on the way home at 45mph and killed someone is it my SUV's fault...?

SUVs capable of 100-MPH+ are often seen driving near 80-MPH in the 70-MPH zones—as allowed in dozens of states.

The same 70-MPH maximum-speed zones are linked with a minimum speed—usually 45-MPH: this is to allow the driver time to brake to avoid a collision at high speed.

Boats don't have brakes.

There is no minimum speed for boats. Indeed, Maine invites boaters to anchor on Maine waters at night.

What were they thinking?

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

You don't see these "instruments of death" offshore.

Big waves make for "stuffs", "hooks" and "flips". It's too salty, too many big things to collide with, makes the anchor dirty, there's toothy things to step on, the graphics get spotted, the salt causes unsightly deposits on the drive coolers, and you have to get knowledgeable about all that navigation stuff.

You didn't answer my question, which I suspect is because you saw my point and had no logical response?

Drunk operator + ANY TYPE OF VESSEL (or car, or bike, or skateboard for that matter) = very bad things.

Don't blame the boat.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Yup. Gotta hate those reckless sailboaters.

Mean like these guys? http://www.ch-consult.com/Lake-Malawi-Story.htm
Was the boat at fault in that story, or was it the skipper?

I have a friend that was aboard a big sailboat that ran aground at night due to a gross navigational error and a crew member died in the accident. I have another friend who capsized a Daysailer on Squam Lake in October and came very close to dying of hypothermia before he and his buddies were rescued. People do dumb and dangerous things in sailboats too, I know I'm guilty of pushing sailboats too hard, bet you have done it too, it's fun, but it is dangerous.

[Skip]

If I just use this one particular story, from of all places Lake George, could I statistically declare "bow riders 1, ocean racers 0?".



Timesunion.com

Section: Capital Region
Page: B5
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2006

Lake George boater dies from injuries in accident
Ryan D. Winslow, 24, of Warrensburg, was piloting boat that hit diving board

By LEIGH HORNBECK
Staff writer

Caption: Winslow

A former high school football star from Warrensburg died Monday from
injuries he suffered in a boat accident on Lake George over the weekend.

Ryan D. Winslow, 24, had been piloting a 21-foot boat near Bolton
Landing just before 2:30 a.m. Sunday when the boat struck a diving board
extending from a dock, police said. The impact broke off a piece of the
boat's metal tubing, which struck Winslow in the head. The vessel then ran
aground. Winslow was a 1999 graduate of Warrensburg High School and hoped to return
there as a football coach, said Mike Welch, his foot ball coach at Ithaca
College.

"I just sent in a recommendation to help him," Welch said.

Winslow played defense at Ithaca. He would have made a good coach
because his attitude was, "team comes first," Welch said.

Winslow graduated summa cum laude in 2003 with a bachelor's of science
degree in business. He worked for a while after college as a manager and
recruiter at Abercrombie & Fitch in Manhattan and last year took a job in
sales at Champlain Stone Ltd. in Warrensburg.

"He was a beautiful young man," said Vandra Dagles, director of human
resources at the quarrier. At the time of his death, Winslow worked in the
projects department.

Warren County Sheriff Larry Cleveland said he knows the Winslow family
from growing up in Warrensburg. Winslow's father, Bryan Winslow, is a
uniformed court officer in Warren County.

"It's a wonderful family, they are nice people," Cleveland said.

Police ruled Winslow's death an accident Tuesday after an autopsy found
he suffered skull fractures and brain injuries due to blunt force trauma,
Trooper Maureen Tuffey said. Three other people were in the boat with
Winslow. A woman, who wasn't identified by authorities, suffered minor
injuries.

Tuffey also said State Police believe speed and alcohol led to
Winslow's death because of evidence found at the accident scene and
witnesses' statements. No arrests are expected, she said.

Nah, I wouldn't do that......

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by Cal

For those who are narrow minded , with tunnel vision , keep in mind it's ALL this type of boats fault. We all know that a 20' bowrider won't operate at night at 45 mph with a drunk behind the wheel
Anyone with half a mind can see through these twisted figures people are posting for their own agendas. Of course the half a mind part may eliminate a number of politicians

I do not know about yours, but my 23ft bowrider will do 45 at night or in the morning or in the middle of the afternoon. and has a deep V hull. Better watch out for me as well, Guess I should take my boat off the water.

And as far as the kayakers go last time I checked a person in a kayak in two feet swell is very easily not seen at night or in the day. The problem is it is not the boat it is the driver and that is the point trying to be made. I have a better change of being able to avoid a accident or anything at 45 than a sailboat does at the same speed. And please you speak about the close calls and accidents, Please show the stats! Lets not get into how a kayak or canoe that does not have lights on it should be on the lake in the first place at night. Granted two wrongs do not make a right.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by AC2717

"...I have a better chance of being able to avoid a accident...at 45 than a sailboat does at the same speed..."

Gotta agree with you there!

Originally Posted by Skip

"...Ryan D. Winslow, 24, had been piloting a 21-foot boat near Bolton Landing just before 2:30 a.m. Sunday when the boat struck a diving board extending from a dock, police said. The impact broke off a piece of the
boat's metal tubing, which struck Winslow in the head..."

So? A 21-foot Baja flipped in Lake Cumberland's rough water, "rolled violently side to side, killing the sole Poker Run participant. The Poker Run wasn't halted. http://lakecumberland.com/forum/post...epquote=160596

Last line? "He died doing what he loved"

For the victims of these two non-collisions, I'm saying "Live Free or Die", although Shane's family—and Ryan's—might not agree.

It's when innocents get injured or killed that communities of families can be expected to express their outrage.

Indeed, it is a citizen's duty to change things that go so wrong.

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

"...You didn't answer my question, which I suspect is because you saw my point and had no logical response..?"

I saw your three points; however, a tragedy on the ocean is still a tragedy. For those having an excessive amount of "acres per second" coefficient, there's a lot more room on the ocean for ocean-racer antics.

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

"...are you so entrenched in this mentality that these GFBL boats don't belong on YOUR lake that no argument will change your mind...?"

It's not just my argument—and not just my lake:

"Lt. Pat Dorian of the Maine Warden Service told the Boston Globe that communities need to come to a consensus to support greater enforcement -- as well as possibly restrict watercraft and motor size."
—ABC 8-WMTW Online

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

It's not just my argument—and not just my lake:
"Lt. Pat Dorian of the Maine Warden Service told the Boston Globe that communities need to come to a consensus to support greater enforcement -- as well as possibly restrict watercraft and motor size."
—ABC 8-WMTW

Super, sounds like Maine waters will soon be safe for all our kayaking and sailing friends. Make sure you drop us a line from time to time to let us know how much safer you "feel".

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Super, sounds like Maine waters will soon be safe for all our kayaking and sailing friends. Make sure you drop us a line from time to time to let us know how much safer you "feel".

Here I go...fanning the flames....

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/st...42600&ac=PHnws

BT

[Airwaves]

codeman671 wrote in response to APS

What are you talking about?The accident was on Lake George and nothing said that it was in a Baja, nor was it related to a poker run. If you are trying to tie some unrelated accident in to Skip's post then at least have the decency to quote it instead of twisting the content of his post.

It's rare that I defend APS, but the link he provided was not to an event on Lake George and it did identify the vessel involved as a Baja and said the boater was attending a poker run....

HOWEVER...

The link was NOT to a media site, it was to another forum and the poster quoted a media source but did not provide a link. Given what passes as fact on this forum I suspect that the original poster may have left out some facts and had an agenda of his/her own.

The accident happened in KENTUCKY! So once again APS has to travel far and wide to find something to make his point.

And since the Baja involved was a 23 foot boat, it would be hard for even APS to classify that boat as an "Ocean Racer"! And once again I will point out there are NO, ZERO, NONE, NADA Ocean Racers on Lake Winnipesaukee!

APS wrote:

The Coasties have found heroin used by boaters on waters nearby.

First, heroin is already illegal, did it stop the two men in question from using it while boating? I didn't think so.
Second, Lovel Island is in Boston Harbor, not Center Harbor. Last I looked Lovel Island was about 100 miles away. (again APS has to travel afar to try to make a point)

So are you know saying that everyone operating a Go Fast boat on Lake Winnipesaukee is a drug dealer and high on heroin?

Regarding a possible speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee. The Marine Patrol has issued it's report and that report repeatedly showed that the use of radar on the water, in a court of law, would not pass the muster.

So at this point I say to the NH legislature, go ahead and pass the 45/25 law. It is unenforceable since the evidence needed to bring a case to trial (radar gun readings) will not and can not be admitted as true and factual!

Of course this is an UNFUNDED MANDATE so that while radar boat crews of two or more MP officers are on each radar vessel, other boats will be tied up and unmanned and other patrol functions of the MP will be ignored.

That means slower response time to calls about rafting in front of island property, slower reponse time to calls about cruisers making large wakes near shore and oh yeah, slower response time to ACTUAL EMERGENCY CALLS...but hey, they got their speed limit law and maybe over the course of an entire season, it might catch one or two boats going more than 45!

Yay for them!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

codeman671 wrote in response to APS

It's rare that I defend APS, but the link he provided was not to an event on Lake George and it did identify the vessel involved as a Baja and said the boater was attending a poker run....
45!

If you look at APS' post again you will note that it was edited and the link was added to the original post after submission. When I responded to the original post the link was missing, it looked like APS was talking about the previous link from Skip about a boat hitting a diving board which clearly would have made no sense whatsoever. That was my complaint.

The original post was in the morning and the edit was later in the day after my post.

"Last edited by Acres per Second : 10-22-2007 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Tidy, and add missing URL which went AWOL."

[Skip]

Originally Posted by codeman671

...If you look at APS' post again you will note that it was edited and the link was added to the original post after submission...

Some folks have habit of doing that.....

[Woodsy]

This was in todays Boston Globe...

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mai..._deadly_crash/

Definitely going to be an interesting trial... I am very surprised the BAC was .11!

Woodsy

[The Big Kahuna]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

This was in todays Boston Globe...

Definitely going to be an interesting trial... I am very surprised the BAC was .11!

Woodsy

Poor judgement on his part, going out at night rippen around the lake while the cocktails were flowing, been there and done that but have been lucky enough not to hit anything or anyone. I feel bad for the guy, his life is basically over. He will have to spend everything he has to defend himself and end up loosing anyway. Probably not a bad guy, just had a bad idea, I have had a few of those myself. Speaking from personal experience, new laws and rules would not have prevented this, I was YAHOO time for this guy, he was out and about doing his thing, just didn't work out in the best way. I feel sorry for the people that were killed, it was tragic.

[EllyPoinster]

From Fosters.com:

http://fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...S_01/100209781

I like the last sentence of the article.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

From the article linked above;

Prosecutors and relatives of the victims say they will oppose any efforts by LaPointe to be released from prison early.

I certainly hope they are successful in blocking his early release!!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Gotta agree with you there!


So? A 21-foot Baja flipped in Lake Cumberland's rough water, "rolled violently side to side, killing the sole Poker Run participant.

"He died doing what he loved" -- I'm sayin' "Live Free or Die"—though Ryan's family might not agree.

Just another one of your purely BS laden posts... What are you talking about?The accident was on Lake George and nothing said that it was in a Baja, nor was it related to a poker run. If you are trying to tie some unrelated accident in to Skip's post then at least have the decency to quote it instead of twisting the content of his post.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

... The kind of vessel matters...

...Statistics...Production of Grieving Families by Boat Type in Local Collisions:

Ocean-racers = 3
Bow riders = Zero

Ah, a classic case of data manipulation.

For an interesting explanation and pertinent examples of this, go to this wikipedia link and scroll down to the particular paragraphs explaining Data Manipulation.

Thaks ApS for this text book example of Mark Twains often quoted observation: "There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics!"

[SIKSUKR]

I guess it was time to "stir up the pot" again.Wonder what will be brewing in the next APS stew.I'm sure it will not be to my tastebuds liking.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

"...Would the victims families feel better had Mr. LaPointe killed their loved ones with a 20' bow rider.,.."

Does it need mentioning that victims' survivability is devastated with the greater "throw-weight" of the Dominator?

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

"...we should not lay blame for this at the feet of the kind of vessel being operated in the dark by the drunk..."

"The drunk" was abusing his right to our waters by using an oversized boat traveling at excess speed.

The only possible control we—as boaters and responsible citizens—can exercise over drug and alcohol users is to threaten Lake Winnipesaukee users...

1) with increased insurance premiums (but too many remain afloat).

2) with jail (ineffective..."Call 1-800-DUI-LYRS-Free Case Review").

3) by restricting those boats that have demonstrated low survivability rates whenever traumatically encountered (made necessary by their increasing frequency on protected inland waters).



The Coasties have found heroin used by boaters on waters nearby.

•Gather in groups of four or five.

•Discuss the defense of impaired boaters behind the wheel of 4½ ton ocean-racers.

[jrc]

So your proposed solution to drunk boaters is removal of boats that are dangerous when driven drunk?

And this will also help with heroin impaired boaters?

Did you send this to MADD? They've been barking up the wrong tree all along. Instead of preventing drunk driving, all they had to do is get rid of cars that are dangerous when driven drunk.

Do you think this will work with airplane pilots as well? How about astronauts?

[Paugus Bay Resident]

"The drunk" was abusing his right to our waters by using an oversized boat traveling at excess speed.

I thought he was "abusing his right" by being drunk

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

"The drunk" was abusing his right to our waters by using an oversized boat traveling at excess speed.

Wow. Please, please tell me you just really enjoy a good debate and don't seriously believe that removing ANY type of boat from Winni makes us all safer.

Here's a good idea. I am not a boater, don't own one or want one. I am however a swimmer. My right to swim anywhere I want to in your, err, our lake is seriously threatened by all the boats out there, regardless of size and horsepower. Therefore, I think its a good idea to ban boats from Winni altogether.

After all, the first person in the lake didn't have a boat either....

[Airwaves]

Motions to suppress have been filed, read the story here