Long Lake night navigation accident

[Lin]

This was in our local paper today. It's about a fatal night time boating accident on Long Lake in Maine. Once again it's were lights used, was speed used. Still under investigation. According to the paper though the cigarette boat hit the smaller boat with such force that it tossed out the occupants of the larger boat after splitting the smaller boat in half. The two people in the smaller boat were killed from drowning and blunt trauma.
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/homepage/x368115076

[KBoater]

The Boston Globe had this article on boating today

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...dents_on_rise/

[Blue Thunder]

This has been the talk of the Lakes Region of Maine since happening last Saturday night. All of the same issues are now being raised here that this forum has been inundated with, ad nauseum, since the boating fatality on Winnipesaukee a couple of years ago. Speed limits, ban cigarette boats etc., etc., etc. Let's wait for the facts to come out.

BT

[MeEscape]

I'm disappointed in the Globe. I happen to live in Maine and work in the Naples, Maine region. While the "hitter boat" was a go fast and was going fast (landed 150 feet into the shore), the "hittee" was believed to be watching a meteor shower without any lights. Let's wait for the complete investigation, but let's not use this as an excuse to attack certain boats. Any loss of life is a tragedy; let’s get to the root cause, which was not the type of boat.

[wildwoodfam]

The last paragraph asks that very question...so it doesn't sound like you read the ENTIRE article...rule number one in journalism reviews!

Anywho - the article states pretty clearly the investigation is ongoing to determine, speed, alcohol, and whether the small boat had its lights on, which is relatively easy to determine.

Too hostile - that's how I describe the lakes on weekends. Our friends don't even ask to go boating on weekends anymore - getting tossed around in the rough wakes and watching the craziness of the weekend warriors...not for me! We enjoy the quieter weekdays and pre and post season boating.

[Gavia immer]

BT, it's not exactly the same. Maine has the "Reasonable and Prudent" boating law.

[MeEscape]

Actually I did read the entire article and the reason I was disappointed was that Mr. Levenson’s disclaimer was at the end of the article on the second page. Mr. Levenson clearly set his agenda in the first few paragraphs of his piece. As most realize, especially those in the trade, the majority of newspaper readers rarely read more than the headline and maybe the first few lines or a caption for a picture. Do you really think the articles on Boston.com are posted to be reviewed? Or that they represent journalism?

No, this was an article with one intent, dump on go-fast boats and avoids the real issue.

Most boats sold today will reach speeds into the mid thirties or above, a collision at 35 mph can yield unfortunate results. It is not the type of boat which kills, it is the driver who drives too fast or otherwise shows gross disregard for basic boating safety.

BTW, I have boated for over 50 years, day, night, weekend, and weekday, pre-season, post-season, I do not own a go-fast, and I boated all day today without exceeding 10 mph. Nice waves today!

[Airwaves]

I wasn't going to post on this one since I don't work for the Globe or New York Times. But I do have to say there is a difference between a poorly written story and one with an agenda.

MeEscape wrote:

the majority of newspaper readers rarely read more than the headline and maybe the first few lines or a caption for a picture. Do you really think the articles on Boston.com are posted to be reviewed? Or that they represent journalism?

While I agree that many people who read publications like the Boston Herald, New York Post etc and primarily get their "News" from Fox are Headline readers and rarely go beyond the caption in the photos I've found that folks who read the Globe actually read it.

I don't understand what your comment about articles on Boston dot Com mean? The article that was in my hardcopy of the paper this morning was also on Boston dot Com.

MeEscape wrote:

I was disappointed was that Mr. Levenson’s disclaimer was at the end of the article on the second page.

The article was poorly written because, while the catalist was the accident in Maine, it dealt with the New England states that do not have mandated boating education and was not clear on that point. It also did not outline the significance of an unlighted boat on the water at night and as you point out it didn't mention it or say the incident remains under investigation until the end of the article.

As I pointed out in the Speed Limits thread, Mass has a speed limit but what law enforcement is crying out for is boater education. NH has boater education and no speed limit and NH doesn't have nearly the problem Mass does when it comes to boating issues and from what I've read in the press, NH law enforcement says speed limits aren't needed in that state.

A poorly written artilce is just that, poorly written. It is not necessarily someone with an agenda.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

While I agree that many people who read publications like the Boston Herald, New York Post etc and primarily get their "News" from Fox are Headline readers and rarely go beyond the caption in the photos I've found that folks who read the Globe actually read it.

You're kidding right?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by ITD

You're kidding right?

Well, my parakeet absolutely loves the Globe - he won't let me line his cage with anything else!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by wildwoodfam

"...Too hostile - that's how I describe the lakes on weekends. Our friends don't even ask to go boating on weekends anymore - getting tossed around in the rough wakes and watching the craziness of the weekend warriors...

Y'know, craziness was mentioned earlier on the forum—here.

(Excerpted below)

Originally Posted by Dave R

...if you don't like the craziness...We spent the weekend on Long Lake...

[Islander]

If you can't discredit the message, discredit the messenger.

The Globe article not only reflects the public perception, it is reality.

1,000 horsepower on small inland lakes is silly and dangerous. At one point the cigarette boat was traveling across the lake with nobody on board. It crashed between two homes, dumb luck only two were killed.

We keep hearing lately that we don't need a speed limit because very few boats can go much over 45 mph. Yet the last two fatal accidents on Winnipesaukee involved boats that can travel well over the proposed speed limit. That includes the accident a few weeks ago that everybody wants to forget.



"Crash statistics show a growing problem. Nationally, the number of boating deaths, injuries, and incidents of property damage increased for the second consecutive year in 2006, according to the Coast Guard."

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Islander

If you can't discredit the message, discredit the messenger.

The Globe article not only reflects the public perception, it is reality.
1,000 horsepower on small inland lakes is silly and dangerous. At one point the cigarette boat was traveling across the lake with nobody on board. It crashed between two homes, dumb luck only two were killed.
We keep hearing lately that we don't need a speed limit because very few boats can go much over 45 mph. Yet the last two fatal accidents on Winnipesaukee involved boats that can travel well over the proposed speed limit. That includes the accident a few weeks ago that everybody wants to forget.

"Crash statistics show a growing problem. Nationally, the number of boating deaths, injuries, and incidents of property damage increased for the second consecutive year in 2006, according to the Coast Guard."

OK, how fast was the boat going when it struck the other boat? Was it going over 45? How do you know?
Any type of boat going any speed with no operator will eventually crash into shore. Style of boat makes no difference here.

[KonaChick]

I'm still not 100% convinced a speed limit would stop this type of thing from happening though. An idiot's an idiot wether there is a speed limit or not.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Coast Guard statistics clearly show the top cause of accidents is boater inattention, followed by careless / reckless operation and then excessive speed. If you read the report, excessive speed is defined as "speed above which a reasonable and prudent person would have operated under the conditions that existed. It is not necessarily a speed in excess of a posted limit". So excessive speed could be 20 mph or it could be 100 mph.

According to the CG, 87% of accidents happened at speeds below 40 mph with the greatest percentage under 20 mph.

If you read the report, you will also notice that while over the reporting period (10 or so years) the number of registered boats has increased 15% (by 1.7 million), the number of fatalities based on the number of registered boats has decreased over 30%. NH is, overall one of the best states statistically.

Its a very interesting report. Maybe the WinFABS professional lobbyist should read it (I'm sure Barrett has). Here's a link http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2006.pdf

I think the facts speak for themselves, but I'm sure they will be twisted.

One other note, only 14% of all accidents were caused by operators who had a boating certificate that would be recognized by NH, over 40% had no boater education (the status of the remaining operators was unknown)

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

According to the CG, 87% of accidents happened at speeds below 40 mph with the greatest percentage under 20 mph.

Sorry, but your math is wrong

Fatalities under 10 mph = 143
Fatalities 10 to 20 mph = 35
Fatalities 21 to 40 mph = 54

Total under 40 mph 232

Total Fatalities 710

232/710=.326

The correct answer is 33% of fatalities happened at known speeds below 40 mph.

The 87% answer was "cooked" by assuming that all accidents with unknown speeds were under 40 mph.

The boat in which the two people in Maine were killed was motionless. I believe the CG would count that statistic in the "Not Moving" category.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

My math isn't wrong, your's is, under 40 is 332, no 232, whose cooking?. But, least I got you to read the report . I think it is safe to project that the unknown speeds were in the same proportion as the known ones. But, if we throw out the unknown speeds, 338 fatalities at known speeds, 322 at speeds below 40mph = 95% Thanks for helping me make my point. BTW,

Not Moving 90
Under 10 143
10 to 20 35
21 to 40 54
Over 40 16

Total 338
Under 40 322

Equals 95%


This is from page 35. Interestingly, if you look at the horsepower statistics and again eliminate "unknown", 89% of fatalities involved boats with less than 250 HP. All the numbers seem to be in alignment.

Also, look at the boater ed stats. 70% of fatalities occurred on boats where the operator had not received any instruction (of any kind). This number increases to 84% if you only look at certificates that NH would accept.

In regards to the ME accident since the boat the hit the motionless vessel was at speed (unknown now), I would hope that it would be reported at that speed.

This is the kind of stuff the legislature needs to see, facts. Thanks for helping me to decide to take on that cause.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

I don't see how you can include "unknown" in the calculation? Do you feel it is fair to assume that unknown speeds can be equally distributed over the known speeds? Otherwise you are skewing things. Only what is known is known. Again, if you look at known speeds, 95% happened at speeds below 40 mph. Are you disputing that?

Do you disagree with horsepower and education stats as well?

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Bear Islander, where did your post go? The one I just responded too claiming that my stats were wrong?

[Bear Islander]

Nobody follows these statistic fights.

You want to assume that all unknown speeds are slow speeds. I could assume that the reason the speeds are unknown is because they are to hight to measure.

The real question to ask is why the CG has no idea of the speeds involved in more than 50% of fatal accidents?

[Paugus Bay Resident]

I didn't say I wanted all unknown speeds to be slow speeds, I said (twice) that they could be equally distributed (proportionally) to all known speeds. Seems like a reasonable method.

I think all the statistics, when combined; education, horsepower, speed, boat size, alcohol, etc. are consistent. If one were out of skew with the rest, it would be one thing, but they aren't. I honestly have to ask that if they pointed in a different direction, would you be championing them? Would that be a

statistic fight

you would follow?

I'm not sure about the speed unknown thing either. What I really don't understand is the horsepower unknown. Seems like that should be pretty straight forward to determine.

Time to go boating!

[Islander]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

I'm still not 100% convinced a speed limit would stop this type of thing from happening though. An idiot's an idiot wether there is a speed limit or not.

You are on the money about idiots.

But if Maine had a 25/45 speed limit there is a good chance that instead of bringing this boat from Massachusetts to a small lake in Maine, he would have taken it to the ocean, or not purchased it in the first place.

This theory is not a sure thing, but there is a "good chance". When it comes to life or death, I will play the percentages that favor life.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by ITD

You're kidding right?

"Above the fold" is not in reference to your chest.

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by Islander

If you can't discredit the message, discredit the messenger.

The Globe article not only reflects the public perception, it is reality.

1,000 horsepower on small inland lakes is silly and dangerous. At one point the cigarette boat was traveling across the lake with nobody on board. It crashed between two homes, dumb luck only two were killed.

We keep hearing lately that we don't need a speed limit because very few boats can go much over 45 mph. Yet the last two fatal accidents on Winnipesaukee involved boats that can travel well over the proposed speed limit. That includes the accident a few weeks ago that everybody wants to forget.

Speaking of misinformation and math skills.

The 32' Sunsation powerboat had twin 435 hp motors, by my calculations thats 870 HP, certainly not well over 1000 hp as you claim.

You have stated here in the past your own boat often travels in excess of 60 mph. I know my own 23' boat has a difficult time hitting speeds of 50mph, and its a single 250hp engine.

What is the combined HP of your boat that is capable of speeds in excess of 60MPH and using your own words "does it quite often" ?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Skip

Well, my parakeet absolutely loves the Globe - he won't let me line his cage with anything else!

Don't have a bird, so I have no use for the Globe, your bird will likely be disappointed soon however judging from the latest Globe circulation stats.

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

Not Moving 90
Under 10 143
10 to 20 35
21 to 40 54
Over 40 16

How can a boat that's not moving cause a fatality? These speeds have to be for the victim's boat, not the boat that causes the collision.

If he remains on the scene, the boater that caused the collision can "make up" a speed for his boat.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

How can a boat that's not moving cause a fatality? These speeds have to be for the victim's boat, not the boat that causes the collision.

If he remains on the scene, the boater that caused the collision can "make up" a speed for his boat.

The boat hit in Maine was "Not Moving". This shows you that these statistics don't tell the story.

A 1,000 horsepower boat is more dangerous than a 100 horsepower boat. This is especially true after the driver has been ejected.

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Islander

That includes the accident a few weeks ago that everybody wants to forget.

I think I miised something. Is there a thread in this somewhere? I hadn't heard about this.

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Islander

The boat hit in Maine was "Not Moving".

Where in the article referenced in post #1 does it state that the boat which was hit was not moving?

[Paugus Bay Resident]

How can a boat that's not moving cause a fatality? These speeds have to be for the victim's boat, not the boat that causes the collision.

Not moving refers typically to a fall overboard. A fatality does not have to be a result of a collision. According to the USCG, 2/3 of all fatalities were from drowning and 90% of those weren't wearing PFDs. Of the 710 fatalities reported last year, 202 were from falls overboard.

If you read the report, everything is pretty well defined. I have asked for clarification on speed, that is if one boat is moving and the other is not, what is the reported speed of the collision. Once I receive a response, I'll share it.

[NoRegrets]

It is great to see at least one participant that places statistics with research and believable prespectives. There seems to be many that take the headlines or published statistics to create sensationalism like the papers that are vaulable only for lining bird cages.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Islander

A 1,000 horsepower boat is more dangerous than a 100 horsepower boat.

So... using your logic the Mount Washington with 1300 HP is more dangerous than an 80 HP jet ski operated by a drunk teenager? I think I'll take my chances with the Mount...

HP is merely a measure of the ability to do work, it's not a measure of danger. You've once again confused the boat with the operator. The occupants of the boat that was hit could have just as easily been killed by the Songo River Queen, a 16 foot bowrider, a jet ski or a bass boat. All have enough mass to do lethal damage at 1/2 their top speeds.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by LocalRealtor

Speaking of misinformation and math skills.

The 32' Sunsation powerboat had twin 435 hp motors, by my calculations thats 870 HP, certainly not well over 1000 hp as you claim.

You have stated here in the past your own boat often travels in excess of 60 mph. I know my own 23' boat has a difficult time hitting speeds of 50mph, and its a single 250hp engine.

What is the combined HP of your boat that is capable of speeds in excess of 60MPH and using your own words "does it quite often" ?

Actually a Sunsation would be equipped with twin 425 HP mag HO's for a total of 850hp. Merc does not make a 435hp per engine package. The next engine setup above this would put it at 1000+hp. Engine choices are 320hp, 375hp, 425hp, and 525hp.

[codeman671]

For the record I have to agree that the Dominator is too much boat for Long Lake. I almost bought a Sunsation and have driven the 32' Dominator. If anyone has a picture of the offending boat I would love to see it, I am curious to see if it is the one that I test drove. There are not a lot of Sunsations in the area so it is quite possible if it was bought here in NH. There are no dealers in Maine or Mass, and no longer one in NH.

The difference in size between Long Lake and Winnipesaukee is huge, that boat on Winni is a perfect size. Not too big and handles the rough water quite well

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Actually a Sunsation would be equipped with twin 425 HP mag HO's for a total of 850hp. Merc does not make a 435hp per engine package. The next engine setup above this would put it at 1000+hp. Engine choices are 320hp, 375hp, 425hp, and 525hp.

Originally Posted by LocalRealtor

Speaking of misinformation and math skills.

The 32' Sunsation powerboat had twin 435 hp motors, by my calculations thats 870 HP, certainly not well over 1000 hp as you claim.

You have stated here in the past your own boat often travels in excess of 60 mph. I know my own 23' boat has a difficult time hitting speeds of 50mph, and its a single 250hp engine.

What is the combined HP of your boat that is capable of speeds in excess of 60MPH and using your own words "does it quite often" ?

I stand corrected, Thanks Codeman. A little less power than I quoted. My information came directly from the link to the article listed above.

My point was that Islander was exaggerating the HP of the sunsation powerboat to make her point. She is obviously against that type of boat in particular.

The boat in the accident and her own boat are capable of traveling in excess of 60 mph. Both can deadly under a specific set of circumstances.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by Islander

You are on the money about idiots.

But if Maine had a 25/45 speed limit there is a good chance that instead of bringing this boat from Massachusetts to a small lake in Maine, he would have taken it to the ocean, or not purchased it in the first place.

This theory is not a sure thing, but there is a "good chance". When it comes to life or death, I will play the percentages that favor life.

There are sufficient laws that are currently in place to handle this. Rest assured the prosescutor in the case will not be scratching his head trying to figure this out. If he was going too fast he will be violating the reasonable speed law. Throw in a DUI and his days of being a free man are over for quite a while. We need more patrol for unsafe boating.

If the guy in the Sunsation was going "reasonably" slow and was sober how would a speed limit help this?? Maybe a law BANNING boating at night because people can't grasp how to use navigation lights(speculating the other boat was dark...).

If he was drunk and going 70MPH do you really think a person with this type of thinking would be concerned with a speed limit law anyway? If there was a patrol boat anywhere near him he would have been stopped both here or in Maine based on the current laws.

These speed limit laws are just band-aids covering a bunch of uneducated boaters. I tell you what, NH really screwed up by allowing the internet testing for the license. Now we have a state full of "educated" boaters that don't know crap. They got their license by cheating on the test and now there is no way to really force education.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

For the record I have to agree that the Dominator is too much boat for Long Lake. I almost bought a Sunsation and have driven the 32' Dominator. If anyone has a picture of the offending boat I would love to see it, I am curious to see if it is the one that I test drove. There are not a lot of Sunsations in the area so it is quite possible if it was bought here in NH. There are no dealers in Maine or Mass, and no longer one in NH.

The difference in size between Long Lake and Winnipesaukee is huge, that boat on Winni is a perfect size. Not too big and handles the rough water quite well

If you believe that the 32' Dominator is to much boat for Long Lake, then perhaps you can understand that some people think it is to much boat for Winnipesaukee.

Yes my boat can go 60 mph, which not surprisingly is the speed I would pick for a speed limit. But when the 45 mph limit passes I will obey it. The next boat I buy will I'm sure have lower HP.

I like speed but I like the lake more. Thirty years from now when there is a 50 hp limit on winni I will abide by that.

The Mount can take 1,250 passengers. That is about 1 horsepower per passenger. How does that compute for the 32' Dominator? How many passengers does she take?

[4Fun]

Just another note on the two boats that were involved. The Sunstaion has a ratio of about 8.1lbs per horsepower while the 14' glasspar had only about 6.5lbs/HP . The Glasspar was a very fast boat, possibly faster than the Sunsation, and most likely very overpowered at 115HP on a 400lb boat..

The top speed of the boat is not everything!!!

[Dave R]

I boat on Long Lake often and while I would never own something like that Sunsation (and would be a bit emabarassed to operate a boat called "dominator"), I have to say, I don't think it's too much boat for that lake. Don't forget Long Lake, Brandy Pond and Sebago lake are all connected and together likely have more acreage than Winnipesaukee. Sebago is also just as wide-open and rough as the Broads, maybe more so. So to say it's too much boat is like saying it would be OK in the broads but too much boat for Meredith Bay or Alton Bay.

For those unfamilar with Long Lake, the northern "half" is much like Alton Bay and the Southern "half" is much like Meredith Bay. It's 11 miles long. Brandy Pond is alot like Paugus Bay minus the islands.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I boat on Long Lake often and while I would never own something like that Sunsation (and would be a bit emabarassed to operate a boat called "dominator"), I have to say, I don't think it's too much boat for that lake. Don't forget Long Lake, Brandy Pond and Sebago lake are all connected and together likely have more acreage than Winnipesaukee. Sebago is also just as wide-open and rough as the Broads, maybe more so. So to say it's too much boat is like saying it would be OK in the broads but too much boat for Meredith Bay or Alton Bay.

For those unfamilar with Long Lake, the northern "half" is much like Alton Bay and the Southern "half" is much like Meredith Bay. It's 11 miles long. Brandy Pond is alot like Paugus Bay minus the islands.

I don't think "dominator" was the name of the boat but it was the model. Still kind of obnoxious.....
I really hope the truth comes out in this and it can be used to educate some of the real dopes out there.

[Islander]

The generic name for the Dominator and her ilk is "Offshore".

That is where they belong!

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Offshore boats belong, offshore.

Then kayaks must belong in rivers. Canoes belong in ponds. Sailboats belong on the ocean, where there is plenty of wind and sea.

Let see Jetski's, well most people would like them anywhere but here, but I think they are fine on the lake.

That leaves 0-20ft that is permissible on the Lake? Is that what you want Islander?

Oh and lets not forget those awful cabin cruisers(said sarcastically)...... Where do you think they belong?

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by Islander

The generic name for the Dominator and her ilk is "Offshore".

That is where they belong!

I am not arguing that it is seems crazy to have some of these boats on lakes instead of oceans but if used properly and within the CURRENT laws there would be no problems.
Why is it that I can hear super loud exhausts whenver I am near the NASWA or braun bay but the M.P. does not do anything about it?

2 weeks ago I was going through the narrow entry behind Long island while it was very busy. So busy I actually went way outside the markers (On my Seadoo with 6" draft) to avoid the chaos. While the M.P. was giving a ticket a bowrider went within 20' of the patrol at 25-30MPH weaving right through all the boats that were going headway speed. he was completely oblivious to anything going on. It was clear to me then the boating license program has failed and more mandatory education is needed. Not merly just a law to slow fools down.

[robmac]

I believe that Sunsation is the owners I met last weekend,it was just purchased directly from Sunsation.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Actually a Sunsation would be equipped with twin 425 HP mag HO's for a total of 850hp. Merc does not make a 435hp per engine package. The next engine setup above this would put it at 1000+hp. Engine choices are 320hp, 375hp, 425hp, and 525hp.

Maybe, maybe not…

This looks like a lot of engine for only 425 HP, each.

http://www.sunsationboats.com/images/F4-3-big.jpg


P.S- Wonder if this is Islander on her 60 MPH boat?

http://www.sunsationboats.com/images...9/DSC05392.JPG

http://www.sunsationboats.com/justleft109.asp

[Gavia immer]

PBR wrote

Not moving refers typically to a fall overboard.

Where can this be found in print?

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Where can this be found in print?

As I mentioned previously (post #30), please read the report and draw your own conclusions as I have. Everything is defined. It is very comprehensive. I provided the link above (post #15).

For example, the two drownings last year (on Winni) are included because "boating accidents involving a swimmer, a recreational vessel and its operation" are included. According to reports I read, neither vessel was under power. In those cases "Casualties while swimming from a vessel because the vessel is not anchored, moored or docked - and - the vessel drifts away from the swimmer and the swimmer is unable to get back to the vessel" are included. 90 fatalities occurred while "not moving".

[tis]

4fun. I agree with you, education hasn't helped. I think tickets are the only way to teach! I have seen more violations of the no wake/150' law since the boating safety started, than ever.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by tis

4fun. I agree with you, education hasn't helped. I think tickets are the only way to teach! I have seen more violations of the no wake/150' law since the boating safety started, than ever.

I have noticed that boats are getting closer before dropping off to no wake speed now that the MP has put those markers up at most of the public docks to show how far 150 feet really is. I must confess, it's a much shorter distance than I thought it was and I've adjusted, thanks to those markers.

[Mee-n-Mac]

I'd say I've seen the usual amount of boneheads this year. The MP has sat out by Sandy Pt and handed out tickets for infractions of the 150' rule for years. My guess is this year is about average but it would be interesting to find out. I always get a kick when someone passes the marked MP boat less than 150' away and on plane. It's pretty much a weekly occurance. Maybe half the time there are completely clueless and the other half they slow to mush speed.

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

As I mentioned previously (post #30), please read the report and draw your own conclusions as I have.

Since the "speed" statistics are a hodge-podge of numbers, and the compilations incredibly subjective, I don't see how an objective conclusion can ever be drawn.

News reports show a big boat running over the smaller boat. The smaller boat was occupied by two adults on their first date. The news presumes the two to be watching the night skies during the Perseids meteor shower, as witnesses have stated.

A stationary or anchored boat is presumably best for viewing a meteor shower. In fact, the override would have been avoided if the smaller boat had the capability to move. Anchoring at night is legal on Long Lake.

The boat that collided with them that night was reported to have a teenaged girl as the only passenger, with a driver twice her age. Not the formula for sympathetic witnesses or jurors.

The Coast Guard would record four "falls overboard", because everybody involved fell out. The reported speed of the accident would be the presumed speed of the struck boat.

That's because the exact speed of the colliding boat, though presumably high due to the ejections from the speedboat, is not material. When two fatalities occur, it doesn't matter if the speed was 50 or 150 mph for statistics. It does matter if the struck boat was anchored or drifting.

We've seen instances where a solitary boat upset has lost every passenger to drowning. What is recorded as the speed of that unwitnessed upset? Not all boats drift away from a swimming passenger who would be recorded as a drowning fatality. Not all fatalities in the "speed" category will be the result of a boat collision. But if a collision, it should be recorded as the speed of the victim.

It's a hodge-podge of numbers drawn from a hodge-podge of circumstances. Anyone drawing conclusions from that table is using their own personal crystal ball.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

So, it seems that since statistics aren't supporting the need for a speed limit, they are discreditable. What statistics or evidence, other than emotion, does any one have for supporting the speed limit. Simple, and objective question.

Since statistics don't support it, speed doesn't support it, boat size doesn't support it, horsepower doesn't support it, what does? I'd be willing to bet that if the 2006 stats did hint of the desirability of the speed limit supporters would be all over it defending them, but since they don't, they are not credible.

It's a hodge-podge of numbers drawn from a hodge-podge of circumstances. Anyone drawing conclusions from that table is using their own personal crystal ball.

But based on their prognostications, they have a crystal ball. What evidence do they have supporting it?

So, the question looms, what does support the need for a speed limit? I have yet, in over three years, heard a reasonable, rational, supported argument. All I've heard is a lot of emotion and "oh I wish this was Golden Pond (many prop supporters have used the Golden Pond analogy, even in this thread if my memory serves)". We'll, it ain't. If you want Golden Pond , go to Squam. It's lake Winnipesaukee, it's not Lake George, it's not lake anything but what it is. There are a lot of rude and inconsiderate people boating on our lake. A speed limit won't change that. I think we can all devote our collective efforts to make it better, but IMHO a speed limit isn't it. How many of the supporters of the speed limit are involved in any boating safety groups? I'm involved in 2 (not NHRBA or WinnFABS ) and I don't believe anyone in either group coincidentally suports speed limits. Unfortunately, at my age, I have limited energy so, I will direct what I have left on this issue to the legislature, as an unpaid but passionate lobbyist, and not this forum. Over and out!

I think I'll go have my trans fat donut while I still have the chance. BTW, I think they used trans fats making On Golden Pond donuts though I don't have statistical evidence to prove it.

[SIKSUKR]

Amen! PBL.

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

I think we can all devote our collective efforts to make it better, but IMHO a speed limit isn't it. How many of the supporters of the speed limit are involved in any boating safety groups?

A double amen with a side of GFBL. Seriously, when do we start the pool to guess how long it'll be before WinnFABs starts the speed limit push again, and how long before the MP can sell their radar guns and use the money on boater education?

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

A double amen with a side of GFBL. Seriously, when do we start the pool to guess how long it'll be before WinnFABs starts the speed limit push again, and how long before the MP can sell their radar guns and use the money on boater education?

They NEVER STOP, they are dedicated extremists. If you think for one minute they aren't still working on this you are mistaken. They have wined and dined literally some of the legislators! Guess whose tab and facilities hosted that.

We need the people on this forum who have now seen the real agenda of winnfabs, to come out to the hearings, and/or contact your legislators and tell them to vote NO on HB 847!!!! I am not asking you all the join NHRBA, or any other organizations, I just want you to use your voices, be heard in Concord. If you don't the persistance of Winnfabs will pay off. You see all there nonsense sounds plausible to the non boating public. We all know better, but you know how many state reps are boaters? A handful maybe! Again I can not stress enough, stating your opinions here on the forum are great, but we need your support in Concord to beat back this Bill.


Say No to HB 847


WBB

[Uncle Fun]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

We need the people on this forum who have now seen the real agenda of winnfabs, to come out to the hearings, and/or contact your legislators and tell them to vote NO on HB 847!!!! I am not asking you all the join NHRBA, or any other organizations, I just want you to use your voices, be heard in Concord. If you don't the persistance of Winnfabs will pay off. You see all there nonsense sounds plausible to the non boating public. We all know better, but you know how many state reps are boaters? A handful maybe! Again I can not stress enough, stating your opinions here on the forum are great, but we need your support in Concord to beat back this Bill.

Say No to HB 847

WBB

Hey WBB...

I couldn't agree with you more... I found out by first hand experience of some of the hidden agendas by posting my first "Informational" thread regarding the no rafting hearing in East Cove (see other thread). They came out of the woodwork with their agendas and that has become a hot button topic too! Although I feel the forum is a great avenue to get the info out there, it is NOT the final stop... I have joined the NHRBA and I am also going to go to the no rafting hearing in Moultonborough on the 31st... I want to make my voice heard and I want to stop all the nonsense and hidden agendas of the supporters of the bill... I am just starting to evolve on the forum and will stand up against any issue that I feel is unfair and an infringement of my rights as a citizen, taxpayer, and responsible boater!!! Thanks...

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

"...If you want Golden Pond , go to Squam..."

Where I live, the width of Winnipesaukee is the same as Long Lake. (Getting back to the subject). Starting only in this decade, I've been watching anarchy growing on Winnipesaukee, just as it's being discussed in Maine now.

Are you directing those of us who've turned our Lake Winnipesaukee cottages into retirement homes to move to a safer lake?

[Blue Thunder]

Bumping this thread with some interesting info...

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/st...30175&ac=PHnws

[Airwaves]

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/homepage/x1649541001

By Peter Reuell/Daily News staff
The MetroWest Daily News
Tue Sep 18, 2007, 10:00 AM EDT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Officials in Maine are still investigating a fatal boating accident last month in which a power boat driven by a Medway man slammed into a smaller craft, killing two people.

It is unclear whether Robert Lapointe, 38, of Medway will face charges related to the mid-August crash and the deaths of Terry Raye Trott, 55, and his girlfriend, Susanne Groetzinger, 44, on Long Lake in Harrison, Maine.

Although more than a month has passed since the crash, Maine Warden Service spokesman Mark Latti yesterday said investigators are still busy reconstructing exactly what happened.

"It's unusual in the fact that so much of the debris was retrieved by our dive team on the bottom of the lake floor, and then has to be reconstructed," he said. "It's not like a wreck of a snowmobile or an ATV, so that makes it difficult."

Besides the complication of recovering debris from water from 30 to 50 feet deep, Latti said, investigators have interviewed dozens of witnesses in an effort to piece together the crash.

"The crash occurred on one of the busier lakes in southern Maine," Latti said. "There are a lot of people there who have information concerning the crash. There's been a lot of people to interview and get statements from, and compare the information and cross-check it with others.

"We're still working on it," he said. "There's no time line on it."

Investigators say Trott drowned and Groetzinger was killed by a blow to the head when Lapointe's 32-foot cigarette boat, equipped with two 435-horsepower engines, collided with Trott's 14-foot boat, slicing the smaller craft in half.

Lapointe, a former Framingham resident and 19-year-old Nicole Randall of Bridgton, Maine, who was in the boat with him, were thrown clear of the crash and swam to shore.

After slicing through Trott's craft, Lapointe's boat wound up grounded 134 feet inland with its motor still running, according to investigators.

Once the investigation is complete, Latti said, the Warden Service will make its report to Cumberland County District Attorney Stephanie Anderson, who will decide whether to file charges.

"What we want to do is make sure we investigate this as completely and thoroughly as possible before we present our finding to the district attorney's office," Latti said.

Lapointe's attorney, J. Albert Johnson, did not return a phone call seeking comment yesterday, but in an earlier report he told the Lewiston Sun Journal the incident was "a tragic accident with a terrible loss of life which is under intensive investigation by my office."

[CanisLupusArctos]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

I'm still not 100% convinced a speed limit would stop this type of thing from happening though. An idiot's an idiot wether there is a speed limit or not.

You're right. Our biggest problem is that we are in an increasingly "go-fast" society where ad slogans like "It's all about you" are everywhere and young people are being taught that nothing bad is ever their fault.

This sort of incident is just the beginning of what the "go-fast" mentality leads to.

It's not just on our lakes, either: It's on the roads, and on the news (flashy attention-grabbing graphics and fast-paced stories with little or no time for real information.) It's in our food (instant prepackaged everything with an emergency rip-cord so you can get that Twinkie open in a hurry) and now we are hearing more frequently about young children being over-stressed by their full schedules. Where has childhood gone?

Zip-zip, quick, get ahead. But this 'Ahead:' Is it really worth its price tag? I think it's time we as a society start demanding the de-popularization of "Fast" unless it relates to something that really IS important, like saving a life.

[Airwaves]

Wolf man, I really don't know what you are posting about.

An accident happened in Maine, authorities in Maine are investigating, a Go Fast boat was involved but it seems from the latest article that there are still unanswered questions.

That's pretty much it.

Are you advocating we go back to the days of a horse and buggy? That was slow.

Giving up your motorized vessel soon?

[CanisLupusArctos]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Wolf man, I really don't know what you are posting about.

An accident happened in Maine, authorities in Maine are investigating, a Go Fast boat was involved but it seems from the latest article that there are still unanswered questions.

That's pretty much it.

Are you advocating we go back to the days of a horse and buggy? That was slow.

Giving up your motorized vessel soon?

My response was to the postings about this incident's effect on the movement to establish boating speed limits here in NH. I expressed agreement that they wouldn't work. My reason for believing they won't work: A law can't do anything if the entire society has "go-fast" on its mind. Laws only work when society wants them to.

I didn't say anything about going back to the past. What I did say is that I see a trend, everywhere in society, that "go-fast" and self-absorption are becoming popular. I think that is one driving force behind our numerous Captain Bonehead sightings, but the problem isn't limited to our lakes.

Summary: The problem on which others in this thread have commented has deep roots and therefore it will take more than laws to solve it. Since we are a nation that follows the lead of what's popular, and because I don't want more laws, I think the best solution is a publicity movement to popularize the things we'd like to see -- in this case, safer, more courteous boating practices.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

Summary: The problem on which others in this thread have commented has deep roots and therefore it will take more than laws to solve it. Since we are a nation that follows the lead of what's popular, and because I don't want more laws, I think the best solution is a publicity movement to popularize the things we'd like to see -- in this case, safer, more courteous boating practices.

Well put. I could not agree more.

[Airwaves]

CanisLupusArctos I misunderstood your post.
Your explainification was well put and I apologize.
AW

[CanisLupusArctos]

Airwaves, apology accepted. Thank you for calling out my confusing post, too. Reminds me to refrain from internet usage at hours when my brain is operating in 'Safe Mode'. Have a great day,

Wolf Man

[skprbob]

CanisLupusArctos has is just about right with the present trend toward "self-absorption". One of the things that caused me to be a former teacher was the increasing obsession with "self-esteem" and the distressing idea that everyone's opinion was to be treated equally regardless of how off-the-wall it was. This was a particular problem for me as a science teacher. I butted heads with more than one administrator when I had the poor sense to actually tell a student an answer was wrong! It didn't matter that went on to work out the right answer. Self-esteem had already been damaged. These self-obsessed adults are the product of that environment. Me! Me! Me! And the rest of you be damned! It makes a good Libertarian like me gag when people insist on their "rights" and ignore the responsibilities and restrictions that accompany those rights. Your "right" to put your fist wherever you want ends where my nose begins.

Boat courteously!

[BBS2]

As a current HS science teacher I couldn't agree more! In our district 60% of the middle school students are on the Honor Roll. Are you kidding?! It doesn't last when they get to us that's for sure.
These are probably the same people we see on the lake who have such a huge sense of entitlement and also the idea that whatever they do is OK you just get out of their way

[CanisLupusArctos]

Originally Posted by skprbob

Your "right" to put your fist wherever you want ends where my nose begins.

Boat courteously!

Well said!!! How about a variation on that quote: "Your right to throttle up your boat/PWC ends where my 150-foot perimeter begins!"

I'm disturbed by what you two science teachers said. I'm only just past 30, so it wasn't too long ago I was in high school, and self-esteem wasn't an issue at all unless some kid was talking suicidal. If that much has changed in so few years, that's disturbing. I began to wonder what was going on in schools when I went to a Little League Baseball championship this past summer and watched *both* teams get equal trophies at the end. I think you're right, if kids grow up with such emphasis on self-esteem they're going to think this entire lake belongs to them. From what you say, it sounds like they'll also have no appreciation for the nature of the lake because it's hard to learn how ecosystems work in science classes where teachers can't correct wrong answers.

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by skprbob

Your "right" to put your fist wherever you want ends where my nose begins.

And don't forget (sorry skprbob, just using your quote), your right to stick your nose some place ends where my fist begins. Just as a point of debate, as I agree with most of these recent posts, lets not forget that todays "go fast" society is based on that which previous generations have taught us. My kids aren't making this up as they go along, just like I didn't.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

"...Summary: The problem on which others in this thread have commented has deep roots and therefore it will take more than laws to solve it.

"...I think the best solution is a publicity movement to popularize the things we'd like to see -- in this case, safer, more courteous boating practices..."

New Hampshire Boater's Guide, page 32, first paragraph:

Courtesy

"Water means freedom to many boaters. Abusing that freedom prevents other boaters and shoreline property owners from enjoying the peacefulness of open water and beaches. It also creates a need for more restrictive laws..."

Some newbies didn't read their New Hampshire Boater's Guide—available free of charge.

[CanisLupusArctos]

Having learned to drive a boat on the lake since age 5 and the kind of dorky kid who read the navigation rules on Dad's lake chart because it seemed interesting, I saw the Boater's Guide too and disagree with its expression of a "need" for laws. What's needed is a change in the public's fast-paced attitude. Without that, laws may be written but they'd be useless.

There are all kinds of things that are forbidden, yet remain constant problems (drugs, murder, theft, robbery, traffic violations, the list goes on...) That stuff SHOULD be illegal and should stay that way... but my point is that the law doesn't actually do much to stop any of it unless large amounts of money are spent on strict enforcement. What really makes those problems better is anything that triggers a change of attitude among would-be offenders - like when ordinary citizens get involved and start getting creative. Public attitude towards anything can be changed regardless of whether it's forbidden or not (just look at fashions - what's "in" and what's "out" changes every year without any help from the law.)

If there was a way to locally advertise "Captain Bonehead shall be shamed & shunned" there are a lot of would-be boneheads who'd start to believe it after a while.

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

If there was a way to locally advertise "Captain Bonehead shall be shamed & shunned" there are a lot of would-be boneheads who'd start to believe it after a while.

Sounds like a nice project for either this site or a similar one? See a bonehead, take a pic, post it with the pertinent info for all to see?

[Airwaves]

Weirs Guy wrote:

Sounds like a nice project for either this site or a similar one? See a bonehead, take a pic, post it with the pertinent info for all to see?
Yesterday 02:25 PM

BoatUS offers grants every year to folks and organizations that come up with ideas to advance safe boating. Put together a proposal and give it a shot

[codeman671]

Update to the story. Indictments have been handed up.

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll...S0104/71005041

[Weirs guy]

From the Fosters article:

LaPointe is also charged with four counts of aggravated operating under the influence and one count of reckless conduct with a dangerous weapon.

Lets try and bear that in mind while blaming the GFBL boat for the accident.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

If there was a way to locally advertise "Captain Bonehead shall be shamed & shunned" there are a lot of would-be boneheads who'd start to believe it after a while.

Perhaps a re-visit to the colonial days, and have a floating set of stocks for the offending Captain Boneheads. They could be anchored out from the Weirs, in view of the WeirsCam, and of course full view of the Mount and Sophie & Doris. Biggest problem is, "Do we overbuild and have many stocks on it for all the offenders, or build small so that we can have offenders for most of the summer". Oh decisions decisions decisions

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

From the Fosters article:

LaPointe is also charged with four counts of aggravated operating under the influence and one count of reckless conduct with a dangerous weapon.

Lets try and bear that in mind while blaming the GFBL boat for the accident.

The GFBL is innocent—the GFBL's attorney says so:

"...J. Albert Johnson said the charges cannot be substantiated, 'because I am aware of the circumstances leading up to this tragic accident, which indicate no criminal responsibility of any kind on the part of LaPointe'..." http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=71935

And a Maine paper quotes a State Attorney source:

"...The dangerous weapon charge is a result of LaPointe allegedly being intoxicated, operating at an excessive speed, failing to maintain adequate visibility and failing to yield to another watercraft as he piloted his boat with dual 435-horsepower engines down the lake at 9 p.m...You don't drive 45 miles an hour in pitch blackness on a lake in Maine..." http://www.sunjournal.com/story/2329...g_Lake_deaths/

Yup. Just another isolated incident.

[Airwaves]

Another article re: the Maine crash
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/homepage/x143402264

[Weirs guy]

Snipped from APS's quote:
...as he piloted his boat with dual 435-horsepower engines down the lake...

Its all in the spin baby!

My point was more that we should not lay blame for this at the feet of the kind of vessel being operated in the dark by the drunk. Would the victims families feel better had Mr. LaPointe killed their loved ones with a 20' bow rider (thats still capable of 45 MPH without the dual 435-horsepower engines) going to fast and drunk? I doubt it.

[Airwaves]

The latest on the Maine accident from the Sunjournal:
http://www.sunjournal.com/storyupdat...be3f407301#384

[B R]

that link didn't work. here's the latest article on that from the sun journal.

http://www.sunjournal.com/search/story.php?ID=224592

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

"...My point was more that we should not lay blame for this at the feet of the kind of vessel being operated in the dark by the drunk.

The kind of vessel matters:

Would a human being with a 32-foot 90-MPH boat go for a spin only to kill two innocent boaters, toss a friend's teenaged daughter into pitch-black lake waters 1000 feet from shore, and have a driverless boat penetrate 132 feet into a shoreline lined with cabins?

Maine law describes this boat as "a Deadly Weapon". Why would they allow such boats to operate on inland protected waters by sober operators?

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

"...Would the victims families feel better had Mr. LaPointe killed their loved ones with a 20' bow rider (thats still capable of 45 MPH without the dual 435-horsepower engines) going to fast and drunk? I doubt it.

Statistics...Production of Grieving Families by Boat Type in Local Collisions:

Ocean-racers = 3
Bow riders = Zero

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

The kind of vessel matters:

Would a human being with a 32-foot 90-MPH boat go for a spin only to kill two innocent boaters, toss a friend's teenaged daughter into pitch-black lake waters 1000 feet from shore, and have a driverless boat penetrate 132 feet into a shoreline lined with cabins?

Maine law describes this boat as "a Deadly Weapon". Why would they allow such boats to operate on inland protected waters by sober operators?

Statistics...Production of Grieving Families by Boat Type in Local Collisions:

Ocean-racers = 3
Bow riders = Zero

Yes, lets talk about the details...

The boat is an 80mph boat, not a 90mph boat. Having driven a few just like it, and quite possibly the same boat when it was at the dealer new, it is capable of 80-81mph under optimal conditions. Shall I dare ask where you pulled 90mph from??? Probably the same place many of your other stretches of the truth come from. And not that it really makes a particle of difference, the boat is equipped with twin 425hp engines, not 435hp. The media has it wrong. Merc does not make a 435hp engine package. The boat has twin 496 Mag HO's, std equipment.

The accident happened at 45mph according to the article I read, so why do you need to spin this further? Cars are capable of doing over 100mph, yet if an accident happens at 45mph does it get brought up that it is a 100mph car? Nope, just your spin on the situation. The guy was drinking and should not have been behind the wheel. The boat did not do it, the driver did. Boats do not drive themselves last time I checked. And had he been wearing his lanyard the kill switch would have shut the boat down when he was ejected which at least would have prevented the boat from continuing down the lake by itself. Another driver error. The "dead man" as they are called are there for a reason. I once slipped on a wet deck after hitting a wave and hit the floor, had I hit my head and not been wearing my lanyard my boat could have kept going in its path and killed someone. STOP BLAMING THE BOAT!!!!!!!!

If I swerve into another car on the way home at 45mph and killed someone is it my SUV's fault? Unless there was a mechanical malfunction that caused it, it was my fault not the vehicle. If I was drinking? Still the driver. My 8600lb gvw behemoth can touch 100mph, should we bring it up that it is a deadly weapon and should be banned from the road??? Come on...

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Maine law describes this boat as "a Deadly Weapon". Why would they allow such boats to operate on inland protected waters by sober operators?

Maine law also describes cars, ATVs, and even mopeds the same way, if used recklessly. If someone used a sailboat recklessly, causing death to another, the sailboat would be a "deadly weapon", in Maine. The reckless part is the key, not the vehicle.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Cars are capable of doing over 100mph, yet if an accident happens at 45mph does it get brought up that it is a 100mph car?

Excellent point.

[AC2717]

Could not agree more with Codeman, it is not the boat it is the driver!

EVen if the boat was traveling at 10mph it coudl kill someone and not as far, but still runa ashore causing damage to cabins and the shoreline or possible hitting someone on a beach not paying attention.

Probably going to start an argument here, but same with guns, guns do not kill people they are a weapon used by a person to kill something or anotehr person, something has to or be set up to pull a trigger! (by the way I do nto own a gun and thinks fights shoudl be settled with fists not weapons)

So I guess the sailboat which does not really have a rated speed is a dealy weapon at least this boat had a kill switch(even though it was not used) to stop the boat in an emergency, if a sailboat captain gets thrown, what is there to stop the sailboat?

THe "weapon" as it were called is not at fault, no those using the weapon, that is anotehr story, in your case blaming the boat would mean placing the actual thign behind bars or banning them because of a couple of boneheads, on all these threads I have read abotu how bad Go Fasts are, I never see teh research or numbers to back people arguments up. It is a simple case of I do not like them and think they are ridiculous therefore they should not be around. (another point - I do nto have a Go Fast boat nor do I want one, but I do not care what others do with their money, I have a 20 year old bow rider that I enjoy just as much as a Go Fast owner)

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

... The kind of vessel matters...

...Statistics...Production of Grieving Families by Boat Type in Local Collisions:

Ocean-racers = 3
Bow riders = Zero

Ah, a classic case of data manipulation.

For an interesting explanation and pertinent examples of this, go to this wikipedia link and scroll down to the particular paragraphs explaining Data Manipulation.

Thaks ApS for this text book example of Mark Twains often quoted observation: "There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics!"

[SIKSUKR]

I guess it was time to "stir up the pot" again.Wonder what will be brewing in the next APS stew.I'm sure it will not be to my tastebuds liking.

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Maine law also describes cars, ATVs, and even mopeds the same way, if used recklessly. If someone used a sailboat recklessly, causing death to another, the sailboat would be a "deadly weapon", in Maine. The reckless part is the key, not the vehicle.

BURN!

Originally Posted by Skip

Ah, a classic case of data manipulation.

For an interesting explanation and pertinent examples of this, go to this wikipedia link and scroll down to the particular paragraphs explaining Data Manipulation.

Thaks ApS for this text book example of Mark Twains often quoted observation: "There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics!"

DOUBLE BURN!

OK APS, lets say that capt drunkie didn't bring his horrible instrument of death to this little lake in Maine, but instead brought it off shore (where you claim it belongs anyway) and did the exact same thing (got drunk, operated too fast for the conditions and hit a smaller vessel killing 2 people and launching the boat onto shore). Do you feel better now that it happen on the ocean where this boat belongs?

Or how about this. He leaves his horrible instrument of death home, borrows a buddies 20' bow rider on this small Maine lake, gets drunk and runs over a smaller vessel killing 2 people. Only this time, thanks to the smaller less powerful boat, the boat does not end up on shore. Still feel better?

Or are you so entrenched in this mentality that these GFBL boats don't belong on YOUR lake that no argument will change your mind?

[Cal]

For those who are narrow minded , with tunnel vision , keep in mind it's ALL this type of boats fault. We all know that a 20' bowrider won't operate at night at 45 mph with a drunk behind the wheel
Anyone with half a mind can see through these twisted figures people are posting for their own agendas. Of course the half a mind part may eliminate a number of politicians

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Skip

"...Thaks ApS for this text book example of Mark Twains often quoted observation: "There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics...!"

Gee...when the 2006 NH Boating Accident report came out, all the "unlimited speeds" crowd were delighted that Winnipesaukee accidents were shown to be decreasing. They were even happier when the Coast Guard statistics for 2005 showed the very same decrease in accidents.

Did anybody make a note that the accident-reporting law had changed the requirement from $500 damage to a new $2000 threshold in 2004?

Now there's one sure-fire technique for New Hampshire—and the Coast Guard, using NH's statistics—to decrease the accident rate! What a great way to support "Unlimited Speeds"!

Who quoted Mark Twain back then?

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...If someone used a sailboat recklessly, causing death to another, the sailboat would be a "deadly weapon", in Maine..."

Yup. Gotta hate those reckless sailboaters.

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

OK APS, lets say that capt drunkie didn't bring his horrible instrument of death to this little lake in Maine, but instead brought it off shore (where you claim it belongs anyway) and did the exact same thing (got drunk, operated too fast for the conditions and hit a smaller vessel killing 2 people and launching the boat onto shore). Do you feel better now that it happen on the ocean where this boat belongs?

You don't see these "instruments of death" offshore.

Big waves make for "stuffs", "hooks" and "flips". It's too salty, too many big things to collide with, makes the anchor dirty, there's toothy things to step on, the graphics get spotted, the salt causes unsightly deposits on the drive coolers, and you have to get knowledgeable about all that navigation stuff.

Originally Posted by Cal

"...For those who are narrow minded , with tunnel vision , keep in mind it's ALL this type of boats fault..."

If there's any tunnel vision on the lake, it's with those who "can't see kayaks". I remember when Lake Winnipesaukee's paddlers, skiers, and sailors didn't have the close calls and tragedies we're witnessing today. (And I have no difficulty seeing kayakers of any size or color).

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...Having driven a few just like it, and quite possibly the same boat when it was at the dealer new, it is capable of 80-81mph under optimal conditions...Cars are capable of doing over 100mph, yet if an accident happens at 45mph does it get brought up that it is a 100mph car? If I swerve into another car on the way home at 45mph and killed someone is it my SUV's fault...?

SUVs capable of 100-MPH+ are often seen driving near 80-MPH in the 70-MPH zones—as allowed in dozens of states.

The same 70-MPH maximum-speed zones are linked with a minimum speed—usually 45-MPH: this is to allow the driver time to brake to avoid a collision at high speed.

Boats don't have brakes.

There is no minimum speed for boats. Indeed, Maine invites boaters to anchor on Maine waters at night.

What were they thinking?

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by Cal

For those who are narrow minded , with tunnel vision , keep in mind it's ALL this type of boats fault. We all know that a 20' bowrider won't operate at night at 45 mph with a drunk behind the wheel
Anyone with half a mind can see through these twisted figures people are posting for their own agendas. Of course the half a mind part may eliminate a number of politicians

I do not know about yours, but my 23ft bowrider will do 45 at night or in the morning or in the middle of the afternoon. and has a deep V hull. Better watch out for me as well, Guess I should take my boat off the water.

And as far as the kayakers go last time I checked a person in a kayak in two feet swell is very easily not seen at night or in the day. The problem is it is not the boat it is the driver and that is the point trying to be made. I have a better change of being able to avoid a accident or anything at 45 than a sailboat does at the same speed. And please you speak about the close calls and accidents, Please show the stats! Lets not get into how a kayak or canoe that does not have lights on it should be on the lake in the first place at night. Granted two wrongs do not make a right.

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

You don't see these "instruments of death" offshore.

Big waves make for "stuffs", "hooks" and "flips". It's too salty, too many big things to collide with, makes the anchor dirty, there's toothy things to step on, the graphics get spotted, the salt causes unsightly deposits on the drive coolers, and you have to get knowledgeable about all that navigation stuff.

You didn't answer my question, which I suspect is because you saw my point and had no logical response?

Drunk operator + ANY TYPE OF VESSEL (or car, or bike, or skateboard for that matter) = very bad things.

Don't blame the boat.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Yup. Gotta hate those reckless sailboaters.

Mean like these guys? http://www.ch-consult.com/Lake-Malawi-Story.htm
Was the boat at fault in that story, or was it the skipper?

I have a friend that was aboard a big sailboat that ran aground at night due to a gross navigational error and a crew member died in the accident. I have another friend who capsized a Daysailer on Squam Lake in October and came very close to dying of hypothermia before he and his buddies were rescued. People do dumb and dangerous things in sailboats too, I know I'm guilty of pushing sailboats too hard, bet you have done it too, it's fun, but it is dangerous.

[Skip]

If I just use this one particular story, from of all places Lake George, could I statistically declare "bow riders 1, ocean racers 0?".



Timesunion.com

Section: Capital Region
Page: B5
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2006

Lake George boater dies from injuries in accident
Ryan D. Winslow, 24, of Warrensburg, was piloting boat that hit diving board

By LEIGH HORNBECK
Staff writer

Caption: Winslow

A former high school football star from Warrensburg died Monday from
injuries he suffered in a boat accident on Lake George over the weekend.

Ryan D. Winslow, 24, had been piloting a 21-foot boat near Bolton
Landing just before 2:30 a.m. Sunday when the boat struck a diving board
extending from a dock, police said. The impact broke off a piece of the
boat's metal tubing, which struck Winslow in the head. The vessel then ran
aground. Winslow was a 1999 graduate of Warrensburg High School and hoped to return
there as a football coach, said Mike Welch, his foot ball coach at Ithaca
College.

"I just sent in a recommendation to help him," Welch said.

Winslow played defense at Ithaca. He would have made a good coach
because his attitude was, "team comes first," Welch said.

Winslow graduated summa cum laude in 2003 with a bachelor's of science
degree in business. He worked for a while after college as a manager and
recruiter at Abercrombie & Fitch in Manhattan and last year took a job in
sales at Champlain Stone Ltd. in Warrensburg.

"He was a beautiful young man," said Vandra Dagles, director of human
resources at the quarrier. At the time of his death, Winslow worked in the
projects department.

Warren County Sheriff Larry Cleveland said he knows the Winslow family
from growing up in Warrensburg. Winslow's father, Bryan Winslow, is a
uniformed court officer in Warren County.

"It's a wonderful family, they are nice people," Cleveland said.

Police ruled Winslow's death an accident Tuesday after an autopsy found
he suffered skull fractures and brain injuries due to blunt force trauma,
Trooper Maureen Tuffey said. Three other people were in the boat with
Winslow. A woman, who wasn't identified by authorities, suffered minor
injuries.

Tuffey also said State Police believe speed and alcohol led to
Winslow's death because of evidence found at the accident scene and
witnesses' statements. No arrests are expected, she said.

Nah, I wouldn't do that......

[Cal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal
"...For those who are narrow minded , with tunnel vision , keep in mind it's ALL this type of boats fault..."


If there's any tunnel vision on the lake, it's with those who "can't see kayaks". I remember when Lake Winnipesaukee's paddlers, skiers, and sailors didn't have the close calls and tragedies we're witnessing today. (And I have no difficulty seeing kayakers of any size or color). Quote:

I wasn't talking about the actual malady "tunnel vision" rather the "tunnel vision" of the narrow minded people that only see what they want to see (or hear)
A perfect example is what you quoted from me

"If the shoe fits....

[ApS]

Originally Posted by AC2717

"...I have a better chance of being able to avoid a accident...at 45 than a sailboat does at the same speed..."

Gotta agree with you there!

Originally Posted by Skip

"...Ryan D. Winslow, 24, had been piloting a 21-foot boat near Bolton Landing just before 2:30 a.m. Sunday when the boat struck a diving board extending from a dock, police said. The impact broke off a piece of the
boat's metal tubing, which struck Winslow in the head..."

So? A 21-foot Baja flipped in Lake Cumberland's rough water, "rolled violently side to side, killing the sole Poker Run participant. The Poker Run wasn't halted. http://lakecumberland.com/forum/post...epquote=160596

Last line? "He died doing what he loved"

For the victims of these two non-collisions, I'm saying "Live Free or Die", although Shane's family—and Ryan's—might not agree.

It's when innocents get injured or killed that communities of families can be expected to express their outrage.

Indeed, it is a citizen's duty to change things that go so wrong.

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

"...You didn't answer my question, which I suspect is because you saw my point and had no logical response..?"

I saw your three points; however, a tragedy on the ocean is still a tragedy. For those having an excessive amount of "acres per second" coefficient, there's a lot more room on the ocean for ocean-racer antics.

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

"...are you so entrenched in this mentality that these GFBL boats don't belong on YOUR lake that no argument will change your mind...?"

It's not just my argument—and not just my lake:

"Lt. Pat Dorian of the Maine Warden Service told the Boston Globe that communities need to come to a consensus to support greater enforcement -- as well as possibly restrict watercraft and motor size."
—ABC 8-WMTW Online

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

It's not just my argument—and not just my lake:
"Lt. Pat Dorian of the Maine Warden Service told the Boston Globe that communities need to come to a consensus to support greater enforcement -- as well as possibly restrict watercraft and motor size."
—ABC 8-WMTW

Super, sounds like Maine waters will soon be safe for all our kayaking and sailing friends. Make sure you drop us a line from time to time to let us know how much safer you "feel".

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Gotta agree with you there!


So? A 21-foot Baja flipped in Lake Cumberland's rough water, "rolled violently side to side, killing the sole Poker Run participant.

"He died doing what he loved" -- I'm sayin' "Live Free or Die"—though Ryan's family might not agree.

Just another one of your purely BS laden posts... What are you talking about?The accident was on Lake George and nothing said that it was in a Baja, nor was it related to a poker run. If you are trying to tie some unrelated accident in to Skip's post then at least have the decency to quote it instead of twisting the content of his post.

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Super, sounds like Maine waters will soon be safe for all our kayaking and sailing friends. Make sure you drop us a line from time to time to let us know how much safer you "feel".

Here I go...fanning the flames....

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/st...42600&ac=PHnws

BT