Oh boy....I hate to see stories like this...

[WinnisquamZ]

Many of you are assuming the taser and gun were fired simultaneously. I assume after hearing from a professional that the taser was fired and had little effect. That’s when a firearm would be used. A drugged individual getting hit with a taser may not feel its effects. Terrible events for everyone involved


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[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Many of you are assuming the taser and gun were fired simultaneously. I assume after hearing from a professional that the taser was fired and had little effect. That’s when a firearm would be used. A drugged individual getting hit with a taser may not feel its effects. Terrible events for everyone involved


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With the 26" night-stick, police get trained to hit the assailant on either the thigh or arm, just below the shoulder ..... https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroneal_strike ..... to hit them once or twice very hard with the police baton and then step back. The assailant realizes that the thing has gone against him, and the confrontation is over.

Mischa would have had a big huge black and blue bruise on his arm or thigh, and that would send him a strong message ...... plus he would be alive to heal up the big bruise from the police baton. Death is the end of life, permanently and forever, while a big bruise to the arm or thigh will usually heal up and become healthy.

From Sept 2016, Mischa Fay's mom and dad, Merrill and Beth with Rod Stewart ..... http://www.facebook.com/FaysBoatYard...type=3&theater ..... at Bank of NH Pavilion

As a local hockey player at the Merrill Fay Ice Arena ... http://merrillfayarena.com .... in Laconia, someone reading this probably has a good idea as to the height and weight of Mishca Fay? Was he a big strong guy like his dad, or what?

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

With the 26" night-stick, police get trained to hit the assailant on either the thigh or arm, just below the shoulder ..... https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroneal_strike ..... to hit them once or twice very hard with the police baton and then step back. The assailant realizes that the thing has gone against him, and the confrontation is over.

Mischa would have had a big huge black and blue bruise on his arm or thigh, and that would send him a strong message ...

People in a mental health crisis and raging are not CAPABLE of receiving such "messages". You CANNOT reason with them. Such people that are armed with a DEADLY weapon are unpredictable, can have rage fueled strength, and are incredibly dangerous. Frankly, in such confrontations, the safety of others, including the officers, takes precedence over the person in crisis.

[fatlazyless]

With a taser, the police officer aims and pulls the taser trigger ...... if it doesn't stop the assailant, he goes for his hand gun and kills the assailant.

With a police baton, it can be swung, pushed, jabbed many times. With two hands it can be used as a block. Police Departments around the world have been using police batons for 150-years while the taser is a new tool. Don't discount the 26" police baton as an effective tool in this situation in Gilford. If one had been used instead of a taser, the results would be very different.

Another police tool is mace, that gets sprayed into the assailant's face from a distance. Mace will repel a black bear, so's it should stop a 17-year old with a knife. It seems that NH Fish and Game officers take more care to not kill a black bear than the Gilford Police to not kill 17-year old, Mischa Fay.

[Poor Richard]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

With a taser, the police officer aims and pulls the taser trigger ...... if it doesn't stop the assailant, he goes for his hand gun and kills the assailant.

With a police baton, it can be swung, pushed, jabbed many times. With two hands it can be used as a block. Police Departments around the world have been using police batons for 150-years while the taser is a new tool. Don't discount the 26" police baton as an effective tool in this situation in Gilford. If one had been used instead of a taser, the results would be very different.

Another police tool is mace, that gets sprayed into the assailant's face.

With all the free time you clearly have, I suggest you spend some of it watching the YouTube channel called Donut Operator. There's plenty of content for you to get educated on.

It simple terms, batons don't create the sort of space that promotes officer safety.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Poor Richard

With all the free time you clearly have, I suggest you spend some of it watching the YouTube channel called Donut Operator. There's plenty of content for you to get educated on.

It simple terms, batons don't create the sort of space that promotes officer safety.

Hey ...... your quote of my post doesn't show my last two sentences about ..... 'from a distance. .... mace, a black bear, NH Fish and Game, the Gilford Police, and 17-year old Mischa Fay' ...... kindly, redo the quote?

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Hey ...... your quote of my post doesn't show my last two sentences about ..... 'from a distance. .... mace, a black bear, NH Fish and Game, the Gilford Police, and 17-year old Mischa Fay' ...... kindly, redo the quote?

Mace is hardly used anymore, pepper spray is prevalent now. However, it doesn't always work, especially when drugs are involved. If a subject with a knife is charging you, pepper spray or a baton would not be the weapon of choice. If a taser doesn't stop the threat then a firearm may be the only option left.

Again, we won't know what happened until all the facts are in and the body camera recordings are processed. Decisions have to be made in split seconds and sometimes people are all too willing to blame the police for their actions. That is unfortunate. Unless you were there you will never understand the stress and the threat involved in this or similar situations.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Mace is hardly used anymore, pepper spray is prevalent now. However, it doesn't always work, especially when drugs are involved. If a subject with a knife is charging you, pepper spray or a baton would not be the weapon of choice. If a taser doesn't stop the threat then a firearm may be the only option left.

Again, we won't know what happened until all the facts are in and the body camera recordings are processed. Decisions have to be made in split seconds and sometimes people are all too willing to blame the police for their actions. That is unfortunate. Unless you were there you will never understand the stress and the threat involved in this or similar situations.

You can get a pretty good idea of how quickly things happen on youtube from dash and badge cam video. It's frightening.

There is also video of cops losing their cool and either firing through fear or rage when they probably shouldn't have. Plus at least one case of a cop thinking she was firing her taser but actually firing her gun. I doubt any of this is the case here, but it happens.

The reality is that what works in the movies does not work in real life.

[Poor Richard]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Hey ...... your quote of my post doesn't show my last two sentences about ..... 'from a distance. .... mace, a black bear, NH Fish and Game, the Gilford Police, and 17-year old Mischa Fay' ...... kindly, redo the quote?

Kindly re-read what I quoted. You'll see the two sentences in question are in fact included.

Mace/OC spray, et al and batons do not allow enough space for a given officer's safety.

Additionally, tasers have shown to offer limited effectiveness on folks who are on an adrenaline dump.

I highly recommend checking out Donut Operator on YouTube. It's remarkable what law enforcement is up against on any given day

[Mr. V]

The police were familiar with the boy and his problems.

Misha's family called the police; I have to assume they were in the home snd potentially at risk from Misha when the police arrived?

If so, then I as "the reasonable man" could understand the use of deadly force to protect them from being stabbed.

But if they'd fled, or met the police outside the home upon arrival, then the police would have had the presumably "better" option of quickly retreating when the knife-wielding teen approached them and then await the appearance of mental health professionals to deal with the disturbed young man.

[Poor Richard]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Hey ...... your quote of my post doesn't show my last two sentences about ..... 'from a distance. .... mace, a black bear, NH Fish and Game, the Gilford Police, and 17-year old Mischa Fay' ...... kindly, redo the quote?

Originally Posted by Poor Richard

Kindly re-read what I quoted. You'll see the two sentences in question are in fact included.

My mistake. I see what you're seeing now and I just remembered I did quote everything at first then, before I posted, ended up deleting those specific statements.

Thankfully the statements provided zero substance to the conversation so take comfort in the fact that their absence in the quote is inconsequential.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by jeffk

People in a mental health crisis and raging are not CAPABLE of receiving such "messages". You CANNOT reason with them. Such people that are armed with a DEADLY weapon are unpredictable, can have rage fueled strength, and are incredibly dangerous. Frankly, in such confrontations, the safety of others, including the officers, takes precedence over the person in crisis.

Agreed. It is ridiculous to expect an officer facing a person with a knife to have to defend himself with a stick, especially if that person appears to be strong and/or quick...

Assuming the officer who killed him needed to shoot at that instant, the real issue is what could have been done to have prevented that moment from occurring

[Susie Cougar]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Assuming the officer who killed him needed to shoot at that instant, the real issue is what could have been done to have prevented that moment from occurring

The police had been called five times since February. What was the result of the other five calls? Was the boy taken away to the hospital or did they tell the parents that they couldn’t do anything? Would the police know that there was an ongoing problem at that house?
The poor kid was only 17 years old. it is sad to me to think that the parents didn’t feel they had any other option.

[ITD]

Sometime during the 80s and 90s several changes happened in the mental illness front. 1st and foremost, breakthrough drugs made the treatment of severe mental illness more effective. Sanitoriums and mass incarceration of mentally ill patients became less needed. The drugs were effective at tamping down psychosis and allowing patients to function normally in society. Nothing is 100% but for most of these illnesses they can be managed.

The problem, as I understand it, is that the patients, feeling better, and not wanting to deal with some side effects from the drugs, think they are cured and stop taking their medicine. After a few months, the psychosis comes back and they spiral. This is just part of mental illness. After a while, many come to understand that they can't function without the meds and lead fairly normal lives, some unfortunately don't.

In the 80s or 90s, realizing that the volume of state institutions required in the past were not needed due to the improvements in treatment, the politicians in charge saw an opportunity to cut expenses and divert funds to pet projects. But rather than just down sizing these institutions to fit the needs, they pretty much shut them down. Closing most if not all, downsizing the rest, creating a shortage of beds for people in crisis. As these facilities were shut down, thousands of patients, who had been institutionalized were sent away to fend for themselves.

Also in the 80s and 90s some patient's rights advocates decided that if people wanted to walk around crazy as a loon, no one had the right to stop them. It was made much tougher to force someone into the hospital and much tougher to force them to take drugs. This young lad had 5 encounters with police due to his illness apparently. I'm willing to bet the family ran into some difficulty with the law (not police, but courts) trying to get him treatment.

It's a very difficult problem.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by ITD

Sometime during the 80s and 90s several changes happened in the mental illness front. 1st and foremost, breakthrough drugs made the treatment of severe mental illness more effective. Sanitoriums and mass incarceration of mentally ill patients became less needed. The drugs were effective at tamping down psychosis and allowing patients to function normally in society. Nothing is 100% but for most of these illnesses they can be managed.

The problem, as I understand it, is that the patients, feeling better, and not wanting to deal with some side effects from the drugs, think they are cured and stop taking their medicine. After a few months, the psychosis comes back and they spiral. This is just part of mental illness. After a while, many come to understand that they can't function without the meds and lead fairly normal lives, some unfortunately don't.

In the 80s or 90s, realizing that the volume of state institutions required in the past were not needed due to the improvements in treatment, the politicians in charge saw an opportunity to cut expenses and divert funds to pet projects. But rather than just down sizing these institutions to fit the needs, they pretty much shut them down. Closing most if not all, downsizing the rest, creating a shortage of beds for people in crisis. As these facilities were shut down, thousands of patients, who had been institutionalized were sent away to fend for themselves.

Also in the 80s and 90s some patient's rights advocates decided that if people wanted to walk around crazy as a loon, no one had the right to stop them. It was made much tougher to force someone into the hospital and much tougher to force them to take drugs. This young lad had 5 encounters with police due to his illness apparently. I'm willing to bet the family ran into some difficulty with the law (not police, but courts) trying to get him treatment.

It's a very difficult problem.

A great summary of a sad history.

I agree with I think are your two implications--we should be spending a lot more on mental health beyond just drugs, and we have given too much freedom to people who are obviously unable to live safely on their own.

[jbolty]

Originally Posted by jeffk

People in a mental health crisis and raging are not CAPABLE of receiving such "messages". You CANNOT reason with them. Such people that are armed with a DEADLY weapon are unpredictable, can have rage fueled strength, and are incredibly dangerous. Frankly, in such confrontations, the safety of others, including the officers, takes precedence over the person in crisis.

Fact. The sad thing is after these incidents it invariably come out that the guy was a known nut and the friends or neighbors expected a problem or had called the police previously. Unfortunately locking people up for their own good is no longer a thing and then the cops are left to deal with the aftermath and as mentioned they show up with no history and a crazy guy waving a knife around. Then of course, suicide by cop happens too.