Changing furnace filter

[TheProfessor]

I think that the horse has been beaten to death here.

But will the OP tell all the solutions when this issue has been resolved ?

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

I have two service calls on my bill now: annual cleaning plus 2nd visit when the smoke odor continued. Doesn't it seem like I should call back the same company and get them to fix the problem, instead of calling another company? And get the flue pipe replaced right away? I emailed the service manager a few days ago; no reply. I'll call again tomorrow.

Don't pay the bill until you are satisfied, they have an obligation to fix the issue for free if it's something they did or didn't do. You will be responsible for the initial call to have a service done. Yes call the same company back and have the smoke pipe replaced. Don't email them... call directly.

[fatlazyless]

For $10.99 at Lowe's, suggest you get a roll of 3M high temperature flue tape, high heat sealing tape up to 600 degrees, 15-foot roll x 1.5", silver color and add some more tape to the metal exhaust pipe behind the boiler, especially where it makes a 90-degree turn as shown in your photo. A very small and smelly amount of exhaust could be getting out, there, where the exhaust vent pipe hook-up takes a sharp turn between the boiler and the brick chimney.

https://www.truevalue.com/15-ft-hi-t...lver-flue-tape .... a fix for leaky chimney pipe connections where one section fits into the next with a friction fit. To test for an exhaust leak, simply hold your hand up to the joint connection.

Google this: "Even Low Levels of Soot Can Be Deadly to Older People, Research Finds" ..... January 26, 2022: NY Times ..... especially the reader's comments down the bottom

[upthesaukee]

Replace the pipe.

The high temp tape is good on joints on the chimney, but in my humble opinion, shouldn't be hard to patch a pipe.

Think Flex Seal. Good to stop a leak on the boat bottom while out on the water, but certainly not a permanent solution.

Dave

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

Good to stop a leak on the boat bottom while out on the water, but certainly not a permanent solution. Dave

Yes, for a totally permanent solution, slice up a foam swim noodle with your Swiss Army knife and press the foam into the leak on the boat bottom by using that bottle-opener, screwdriver blade while holding your breath, under your boat and under that Lake Winnipesaukee water. ....

[root1]

Nope ...... its still moving! Lets beat this topic a bit more!

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by root1

Nope ...... its still moving! Lets beat this topic a bit more!

Well ....... so far all posts have discussed adjusting or improving the combustion or burning the fuel oil to eliminate the smell with no mention on tightening up the exhaust.

Wrapping that silver, high-heat, duct tape around each joint is an easy do-it-yourself fix that works excellent to seal it up.

Taking a fast look at the Beckett burner ... http://www.beckettcorp.com/product-c...ntial-burners/... .... in the photo above tells me it runs at about 86% efficiency at best adjustment which leaves 14% or more of the fuel oil as a gaseous combusted exhaust going out a somewhat leaky exhaust vent, especially at that 90-degree bend just behind the boiler, there.

[John Mercier]

To my knowledge, the AFUE is not the perfect measure of whether the burn is clean. It is a measure of Fuel Used vs Heat Produced. Units with chimneys generally need to ''give up'' some heat into the flue to achieve draft.

High efficiency models tend to use direct vent, or power vent, to limit the amount of heat that needs to be lost up the chimney.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Google this: "Even Low Levels of Soot Can Be Deadly to Older People, Research Finds" ..... January 26, 2022: NY Times ..... especially the reader's comments down the bottom

What do the readers' comments say? They're not accessible to people who evade the fire wall. (Not that I would do that.)

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

What do the readers' comments say? They're not accessible to people who evade the fire wall. (Not that I would do that.)

There are 239 different comments so far that vary in length, and all comments need to be rational and real to be shown and they come from the U.S., Canada, Mexico and around the world. A 7-day/week, NY Times internet subscription costs $1/week for the first year, and $17/month, after the first year. While the article is mostly medical science, the readers' email comments are mostly personal experience and opinion.

[christo1]

Originally Posted by swnoel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VLp05Htzx8

I love watching this guy, the way he interacts with customers is priceless.

He seems to know his stuff too

[SailinAway]

I've received the bills for the two service calls, totaling $440. Here's what was done, according to the bills:

First call:

• Annual tuneup
• Nozzle
• Pump strainer
• Filter oil cartridge

Second call (2-hour labor charge):

• Checked chamber
• Cleaned out cover
• Trimmed blanket
• Replaced tank vial
• Sealed around reducer at chimney

Note that the problem reported both times was "smoke smell in house." $440 seems like a lot for an unsolved problem. My (uninformed) guess is that the problem is the smoke pipe. How much would it have cost if they only changed the smoke pipe?

[fatlazyless]

That exhaust is made with different steel stove pipe sections that fit together like a Lego and it usually will have some small leaks at the joints that can be tightened up using small sheet metal screws and/or high heat duct tape.

To check it for leaks around the seams, use a little dishwashing soap and water in a spritzer bottle and spray it on the vent pipe exhaust. Any soap bubbles forming and growing indicate a leak when the oil pump/electrode/nozzle/fan blower powers up the boiler.

Each stove pipe joint should go good with three small sheet metal screws and high heat duct tape to seal it up.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

That exhaust is made with different steel stove pipe sections that fit together like a Lego and it usually will have some small leaks at the joints that can be tightened up using small sheet metal screws and/or high heat duct tape.

To check it for leaks around the seams, use a little dishwashing soap and water in a spritzer bottle and spray it on the vent pipe exhaust. Any soap bubbles forming and growing indicate a leak when the oil pump/electrode/nozzle/fan blower powers up the boiler.

Each stove pipe joint should go good with three small sheet metal screws and high heat duct tape to seal it up.

Soap bubbles??? The chimney should have a negative draft not positive draft! If you don't you have a problem.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by swnoel

Soap bubbles??? The chimney should have a negative draft not positive draft! If you don't you have a problem.

Yes ..... true enough ..... negative draft ...... except with that 90-degree turn just close to the back of the boiler that creates an obstruction to the air flow from the blower fan and maybe some exhaust gets out. It already has duct tape on it so's that's probably a problem spot.

Hit it with more hi-heat duct tape and clean the outside so's the tape will stick, good.

[Jersey Bob]

Our previous (first house) had an oil fired steam boiler. The previous owner had a service contract with Company A. The first morning in the house we had no heat, called the company and they came out. They had already serviced the boiler that year before the start of the season. I don’t know how many times we had to call them that winter due to problems with the boiler. We might have kept them a second year, but it was a long time ago. I just don’t remember. We changed to Company B for service and oil. They would come at the beginning of the season, clean and service everything. When we moved out 14 years later, we still had the same boiler and never had to call for it having a problem. Oh, and it also provided the domestic hot water for the house, so it ran year round.
The difference was in the service company.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Yes ..... true enough ..... negative draft ...... except with that 90-degree turn just close to the back of the boiler that creates an obstruction to the air flow from the blower fan and maybe some exhaust gets out. It already has duct tape on it so's that's probably a problem spot.

Hit it with more hi-heat duct tape and clean the outside so's the tape will stick, good.

Just curious how long you were in the HVAC field? What blower fan are you talking about and what obstruction? I did this for years and am willing to learn from someone apparently with more expertise that I.

[fatlazyless]

The blower fan is an integral part of the gun that includes the motor, electrode, nozzle, oil pump, and fan.

The obstruction is that 90-degree vent pipe attached to the back of the boiler which force exhaust against the vent seam on the side. Vent pipe sections do not always make a tight fit and need three small sheet metal screws and hi-heat duct tape to seal it up. ......

I graduated from Fast Eddy's 12-Week School of Oil Burner Technology where the emphasis was all about doing it FAST ...... and ABLE to convince the customer that you know what the heck you are doing down in their basement with thaht olde oil burner because you got it done, FAST, and talked all about the fuel oil combustion/filthy dirty OIL soot build-up/electrode/nozzle/oil pump/fan blower, all synchronized together in perfect combustion harmony as you was hitting the oil burner with a FAST tune-up. ....

Steve Lavimoniere the oil burner man: North Dartmouth, Massachusetts; Sept 17, 2020 ..... www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T1s9JSHol4 ..... Smell ... ... of fumes coming from oil burner/water heat boiler

So, why do people go with natural gas by pipe or liquid propane in the tank when it costs more and has less btu's than residential fuel oil? Because it burns cleaner and usually needs way less service calls including no yearly boiler/furnace clean-out/tune-up.

[John Mercier]

On a boiler?
If I am next to my boiler, I can hear the draft down the flue... but I don't think that it is forced.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

On a boiler?
If I am next to my boiler, I can hear the draft down the flue... but I don't think that it is forced.

Right, which is why you often see flue dampeners to ease up on the draft.
But you probably hear that after it gets going.

I think there can be a bit of positive pressure at start. When Chimney and everything is cold. The furnace needs to ignite quick and burn as clean and complete as it can until a draft gets going as quick as possible. During that period it does not run good. The longer it's trying to push air up the chimney the more chance you'll get that initial smell.

It could be so many things that can cause a poor/slow ignite or a slow draft.

Electrodes worn
Electrodes not adjusted
Electrodes not clean
Electrodes insulator cracked or dirty
Cold Fuel
Chimney Damaged (water and ice in the chimney)
Nozzle wrong
Nozzle clogged
Oil pump not adjusted to the correct pressure
Oil pump worn
Wrong air intake
Obstruction in chamber

And probably a dozen more.

Note I didn't list pin holes in that flue pipe because those are rarely air tight nor do they need to be. In fact it might be doing you a favor if some smell is coming through that connector pipe because it's telling you, you have a bigger problem. If you make that air tight you might be just be masking a bigger problem.

Just call them again or find someone else is all you can do.
I would also get a chimney guy out since the Chimney is so old.

[John Mercier]

I thought my flue damper was to prevent blow back when wind forces the draft to reverse.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I thought my flue damper was to prevent blow back when wind forces the draft to reverse.

The draft regulators purpose is to maintain the correct over fire draft. Some boilers do not require them. They do nothing for downdrafts. My guess is you're hearing the upward draft. Many times you'll see and or hear the regulator bouncing. This should also be checked and adjusted at the time of an annual service.

[John Mercier]

I don't hear the damper.
Only when near the flue, I hear the boiler kick on... then a little while later I hear the draft of exhaust running through the flue.

[SailinAway]

I've stopped the smoke odor in the house by blocking the gap under the door from the cellar to the upstairs. When the furnace is running I can smell the odor inside/around the smoke pipe, about 8 to 10 inches above the bend. Does this tell you anything?

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

I've stopped the smoke odor in the house by blocking the gap under the door from the cellar to the upstairs. When the furnace is running I can smell the odor inside/around the smoke pipe, about 8 to 10 inches above the bend. Does this tell you anything?

Does it stink / come out after it’s running, as in constant? Or just an initial puff?

A good clean install shouldn’t have to be air tight there. Because a good chimney should have a draft. For an old chimney you can cut it some slack (takes a bit for a draft to get going). How much slack is acceptable, I don’t know.

If it’s a constant leak, I think it’s a fairly serious issue (not the hole itself but the fact it wants to come out the hole).

Like I said, regardless of your issues, like the furnace itself you need to maintain your chimney too. Oil furnaces are especially hard on them because gases are acidic. So get your chimney checked.

Chimney guy can probably fix the vent pipe too.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Does it stink / come out after it’s running, as in constant? Or just an initial puff?

A good clean install shouldn’t have to be air tight there. Because a good chimney should have a draft. For an old chimney you can cut it some slack (takes a bit for a draft to get going). How much slack is acceptable, I don’t know.

If it’s a constant leak, I think it’s a fairly serious issue (not the hole itself but the fact it wants to come out the hole).

Like I said, regardless of your issues, like the furnace itself you need to maintain your chimney too. Oil furnaces are especially hard on them because gases are acidic. So get your chimney checked.

Chimney guy can probably fix the vent pipe too.

I believe the odor doesn't appear until the pipe is hot. I can't smell the smoke at the top of the stairs until the furnace has been running for about 20 minutes. So no, not an initial puff.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

I believe the odor doesn't appear until the pipe is hot. I can't smell the smoke at the top of the stairs until the furnace has been running for about 20 minutes. So no, not an initial puff.

Without knowing what the stack temp is it's hard to know if it's possibly after drip. Is the boiler partially plugged? I know you had 2 pros come out ... sorry to say it's time to have someone else.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by swnoel

Without knowing what the stack temp is it's hard to know if it's possibly after drip. Is the boiler partially plugged? I know you had 2 pros come out ... sorry to say it's time to have someone else.

What's "after drip"?

[tis]

Who would believe we have 128 posts about furnace filters???

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

What's "after drip"?

https://www.beckettcorp.com/support/...zle-afterdrip/

[root1]

Motion to end debate!

[Neko]

Originally Posted by root1

Motion to end debate!

Second the motion

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by root1

Motion to end debate!

Motion to not to end it.
I’d like to learn how this gets resolved.

Is there now a shortage on characters?
If you are not interested, don’t read it.

No, it wasn’t his filter.
He’s tried hard to get it resolved and it’s not resolved yet.

I think SailinAway needs to try another Pro though.
I’d recommend a Chimney Pro next though.
He may need another Oil guy too.

[fatlazyless]

You all need to know the title for this thread "Changing furnace filter" contains a basic misunderstanding because it is definitely a boiler shown in the original poster's photographs and not a furnace, and that a boiler is VERY different from a furnace! .....

A boiler will heat up WATER for heat, while a furnace will heat up AIR for heat, making it a "hot water boiler" or a "hot air furnace" ...... you understand! ..

For a very good chimney inspection/cleaning/repair/expertise, suggest you try the Chimney Crickett from Exit 29 in Thornton, Rick Vollmer, who has been doing chimneys for a long time! He goes all over central NH in his big white Chimney Crickett van with the ladders on the roof.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Motion to not to end it.
I’d like to learn how this gets resolved.

Is there now a shortage on characters?
If you are not interested, don’t read it.

No, it wasn’t his filter.
He’s tried hard to get it resolved and it’s not resolved yet.

I think SailinAway needs to try another Pro though.
I’d recommend a Chimney Pro next though.
He may need another Oil guy too.

I temporarily solved the problem by blocking off the space under the door from the cellar to the upstairs. I sent an email to the service manager stating that the problem has not been solved. Did not receive a reply, so I sent a letter to the company yesterday. What I find odd is that both technicians recommended that the smoke pipe be changed, but neither did that. I would have thought that the second guy would come prepared to change the pipe. My thought now is that I need to give the oil company a chance to solve the problem before I spend even more money on another company.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

You all need to know the title for this thread "Changing furnace filter" contains a basic misunderstanding because it is definitely a boiler shown in the original poster's photographs and not a furnace, and that a boiler is VERY different from a furnace! ..... A boiler will heat up WATER for heat, while a furnace will heat up AIR for heat, making it a "hot water boiler" or a "hot air furnace" ...... you understand! ..

Merriam Webster's definition of the word furnace: "an enclosed structure in which heat is produced (as for heating a house or for reducing ore)." Hence I obstinately continue to refer to my boiler as a furnace.

I bet 95% of people would say "furnace" in this sentence: It's cold in here; let's turn on the _______.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Merriam Webster's definition of the word furnace: "an enclosed structure in which heat is produced (as for heating a house or for reducing ore)." Hence I obstinately continue to refer to my boiler as a furnace.

I bet 95% of people would say "furnace" in this sentence: It's cold in here; let's turn on the _______.

I agree. But I think most would say turn on the HEAT. Your right, nobody uses the term boiler any more.

[John Mercier]

I use the term ''boiler''.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I use the term ''boiler''.

That's because you're old

[John Mercier]

It is what the industry calls them.

[loony]

We had a rental with forced hot air heat by oil l. The tenants would occasionally complain of an odor. I had the furnace serviced every year and each time I mentioned the odor. The technician tested carbon monoxide and efficiency. Both good. I had co detectors in the living space per code so I wasn't too concerned.
I had the old furnace replaced a couple of years ago and the technician discovered that the heat exchanger had 3 inch hole that rusted through.
It was probably there for years and no one checked for it.
So if you smell something when the furnace is running check the heat exchanger.

[John Mercier]

If there was a hole in a boiler heat exchanger wouldn't the burner flood with water?

[WinnisquamZ]

Had a crack in my boiler about 10!years ago. Didn’t flood, just felt like a bath house minis the grape leaf’s


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[loony]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

If there was a hole in a boiler heat exchanger wouldn't the burner flood with water?

It was a forced hot air furnace not a boiler

[John Mercier]

The system being discussed with the problem is a boiler.

[SteveO123]

Can we close this thread? Enough!

[John Mercier]

We have yet to hear the what the solution to the issue is.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

We have yet to hear the what the solution to the issue is.

I will update when I have a reply from the oil company. Can't do that if the thread is closed.

[SailinAway]

So, the oil company canceled the second bill and wanted to replace the smoke pipe for $300, which I think they should have done in the first place. I sort of lost my faith in that company and I think I'll look for someone else to do the work.