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Old 07-28-2004, 10:46 PM   #1
cabinfever
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Default Dilemma over boats anchoring off our beach

We recently bought a long-abandoned island property with several beautiful beaches and conservation protected acreage. The place is a dream except for the fact that the protected shores have long drawn boaters who have become accustomed to anchoring off its shores -- or on its shores. The beaches were one of the key reasons for our purchase. In the few times we've tried to bring our own boats in to shore to these areas, we have yet to be able to, due to the many vessels blocking our way. Luckily, to date we've had little free time from working on the property. So it hasn't become an entirely aggravating situation - yet. Often times, people have also been on the shores though, likely doing their "business". And when we can get to the beaches through this land route, the boat anchors are usually in the shallows, so we can't really swim anyway. A few times, I've asked the boaters to move further off shore for the kids to swim and they've obliged when they've learned we're the property owners. On one occasion though, a boater initially resisted moving, noting how we could swim "over to the right".

The old property signs are worn and faded, and most people probably believe the island is state-owned or still abandoned. So I can't really blame them for continuing their ways. However, even when new signs are posted, I fear we'll still have the problem just off the shores. Waterfront land owners don't legally own into the water, but we should be able to access our own property by boat and swim off our immediate shore without having to navigate anchors in a foot of water, no? Thus the dilemma. What's the etiquette that anchoring boaters should follow? And, are there any legal rights for waterfront property owners?

The island is beautiful and I'd love for people to continue enjoying its protected coves, but I'm looking for a compromise. How we can enjoy our own investment as much as they are?
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Old 07-29-2004, 02:10 AM   #2
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Here is a link to the Rules for NH Bodies of Water (see below) and the general rule of thumb is 75 feet from shore, but Marine Patrol will tell you when they come over to your anchored boat that you must be at least 150 feet from the shore line.

http://www.state.nh.us/safety/ss/bodies.html

I think we need to hear from our MP's or other state officials out there for some clear definition.
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Old 07-29-2004, 05:33 AM   #3
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Default Timber Island?

It's my guess that you are talking about Timber Island. Timber is the 7th largest island on the lake and has aproximately 130 acres. If you are talking about Timber, then wasn't it marketed by Roche Realty with a conservation easement so that almost all of the Island would remain undeveloped?
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Old 07-29-2004, 06:30 AM   #4
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Default Go to the source....

Hi Cabinfever,

Yours is not an isolated problem. In fact, the same issue that faces you occurs on many lakes across the State.

You will get a lot of varied opinion on this subject here, however your best and only reliable source is the Marine Patrol itself.

It is a generally held principal that state waters are enjoyed by all up to the high water mark. There are specific guidelines within these waters pertaining to channels, mooring fields, swim areas (and lines) and rafting (and so on). The specific guidance you seek, how close and how many can anchor off of private property, is not specifically addressed as such.

Granated, no one can block your right to access to your own property. And you have the right to restrict access to your own property (again, with some exceptions). you also can petition the Director of Safety Services for swim line exclusionary areas.

But your proper course of action is to contact the Marine Patrol direct and get specific legal advice. Also, make them aware of your concerns.

As you can see, there are no clear and simple answers to your questions. Good luck and let us know how you make out with the authorities.

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Old 07-29-2004, 07:03 AM   #5
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Default cabinfever

Is it Timber you speek of? I like to anchor off Timber but not in the area you speek of as there is no house in that area. I hope your issues are resolved in a positive manor. Timber is a great place to anchor and I would love to continue to enjoy hanging out in that location. Several of us have even questioned getting permission to go onto the island. Please contact me off line if you are a land owner on Timber. If not good luck just the same.
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Old 07-29-2004, 07:32 AM   #6
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Default Summer guests

Being from the area,we are working durring the summer months and have to wait until mid afternoon or so to enjoy our beach.One afternoon,last year, we returned to find a rental boat anchored in about 3' of water in the middle of our beach.At first we didn't mind because it happens so rarely,but after some garbage washed up on shore and they brought one of the kids on shore to pee in the woods,I decided to take some action.One side of my frontage is just woods and rocky shore,well away from the beach.For years we've had a 3 foot black water snake (harmless) in residence there.I've startled him many times and know exactly where he dives for cover,so it was a simple matter to scoop him up with my long handled smelt net.I then walked over to my beach and dumped him right in the water.They absolutely flipped....threw the kids and water toys in the boat and blasted out of there dragging the anchor.
If you want to borrow my snake,I'll lend him to you,but I want him back.
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Old 07-29-2004, 07:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMIAM
For years we've had a 3 foot black water snake (harmless) in residence there.I've startled him many times and know exactly where he dives for cover,so it was a simple matter to scoop him up with my long handled smelt net.I then walked over to my beach and dumped him right in the water.They absolutely flipped....threw the kids and water toys in the boat and blasted out of there dragging the anchor.
If you want to borrow my snake,I'll lend him to you,but I want him back.
Funniest thing I've read in along time!
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Old 07-29-2004, 09:42 AM   #8
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Yes, indeed, it's Timber. There are three private parcels, each owned outright by that homeowner, and then we own the rest of the 135-acre island together. You're correct, fatlazyless, in that this shared balance of the island has a conservation easement that prohibits building, utilities and public use. But, we still own it privately, pay the taxes (!), and are responsible for protecting it. As property owners, we "own" the land and beaches for hiking, recreation, etc., and have entered into an agreement to govern the island according to the guidelines of the easement set up by the Champlin family in the 70s. I don't think the majority of people realize that it is privately owned, and this may be part of the problem. Plus, nobody's really been there for ten years or so. Like I said, the island is a unique resource whose protected coves offer shelter and beauty to boaters, and I fully want these boaters to keep enjoying it. However, there are beaches that we should be able to enjoy and can't due to the proximity and plethora of boats in the coves. We'll post new signs and see what we can do with swim lines to at least keep the shores and immediate shallows free of anchors. I'm not looking to have marine patrol booting everyone out on a daily basis -- we're just looking for space to enjoy it. I'm sure most people will understand this.

Thank you for the various links, all. "Belmont," you'd need to get agreement from the Lakes Region Trust and all three property owners to access the island. The Easement is pretty tight and they monitor the property frequently. There's a graduate student from UNH camping on the island this summer and working on his thesis about the Flora of Timber Island through an approved pass. The Champlins loved this island and wanted to protect its natural state and beauty in perpetuity. I wish there were more people who thought like this. Cheers, all...

Last edited by cabinfever; 07-29-2004 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 07-30-2004, 05:53 AM   #9
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Here is what I do ...

I take my telescope on a tripod out to my dock.

I then make it painfully obvious I am peeking at people anchored right off the dock...

So far --- most people get upset and leave because I am violating their privacy... heh heh --- go be private someplace else!!!

I would say about 75% success rate!
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Old 07-30-2004, 07:49 AM   #10
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Timber Island is a great resource and one our favorite places to hang out.I'm sure once people get to know that you are living there,they will find another cove to play in.I know I don't want to sit in front of someone else's house and bother them cuz I wouldn't it done to me.Good luck and be a little patient. SS
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Old 07-30-2004, 08:36 AM   #11
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Default Make it look "lived-in".

What the National Park Service suggests at their campgrounds is to leave a cooler or deck chairs at your chosen site to suggest to others that the site is "taken". You can then go away in confidence to enjoy the attractions.

Sure, once in a while you'll find your "stuff" thrown in the woods, and a more-important, oversized RV in "your" spot, but it works most of the time.

Put out a swim raft at "your" beach and secure a chaise or swim-tube to the top of it.

It will appear "taken" and your "dream" will return.
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Old 07-30-2004, 09:11 AM   #12
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Also thinking that a camera attached to the scope on the tripod is even better

If you dont want your picture taken -- go find another public place to hide
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Old 07-30-2004, 10:45 AM   #13
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Default Timber Island

I wonder when is was last logged off or even if it ever was. Its' name suggests that maybe it was used as a source for lumber. Looking at it from the water it looks like an untouched, forested island that has yet to discovered, just trees, trees, & more trees.

I was wondering why the State didn't jump at the chance to buy this beautifull 135 acre untouched island when it had the chance recently. Supposedly, the Whittemore State Park on Newfound Lake and the Ellecoya State Park on Winnipesaukee in Gilford were gifted to the State of New Hampshire. Seems likely, probably the State was broke back in the 1930's and couldn't scrape up any money for a big piece of waterfront land.
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Old 07-30-2004, 03:50 PM   #14
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I don't know why the state didn't jump on it. This has always puzzled me, too. I remember when the entire island was up for sale as one parcel for around $1.5M in 1993 after the previous owner passed away. I still have the original real estate ad. I'm still shocked that one private party, never mind the state, didn't buy the whole thing.

The previous owner's father owned a lumber company and you can still see signs of some minimal logging and excavation work that was done in the 40s to make the man-made peninsula off the big bay property. Ninety percent of the island seems pristine though. The only other activity that I know of is the YMCA Camp that was on the North side at the turn of the century. We have the deed back to the 1700s noting the original sale from the Masonian Proprietors. Only a few individuals owned the island before the Champlins bought it in the 40s. In 1855, Charlotte Smith, after being widowed, sold the island for "$3,000, household furniture, and a certain silver watch formerly belonging to a said Daniel K. Smith." Aaaahhh, if only land were this cheap nowadays. I have a nice Seiko if anyone wants to sell me a small island...

Last edited by cabinfever; 07-30-2004 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 07-30-2004, 04:11 PM   #15
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Default How are the lots configured?

Sorry to hear about your problem, cabinfever... I hope people are considerate enough to take whatever hints you give them to "move on".

A question that wasn't 100% apparent to me after reading the thread (twice even).

You mentioned three individually owned parcels, plus the commonly owned "protected" parcel.

Does that mean that there are three buildable (built) lots? How are they configured - all right next to one another or separated/spaced out by parts of the protected parcel?

Just curious, and I must admit, I've never looked that closely.

But if I do, I'll be sure to avoid anchoring off your beach

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Old 08-02-2004, 08:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinfever
I don't know why the state didn't jump on it...
cabinfever, I think you answered your own question here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinfever
...this shared balance of the island has a conservation easement that prohibits building, utilities and public use
Why would the state buy property that prohibits public use? The state should only buy property to benefit the NH taxpayers. This property is already protected from development, so the state buying it would gain nothing for the taxpayers.
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Old 08-02-2004, 09:37 AM   #17
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Lightbulb Timber Island comments - and possible solution

Congratulations Cabinfever on your new island purchase. I am who has anchored a few times a season in a nice little cove around Timber (South Side, around corner from Witches). On a nice weekend it is often too crowded there for me to anchor so I understand your concern as an owner.

Now, what is the goal? How can everyone be happy? You are already educating us by posts on the forum. I sure will think twice about anchoring in that cove and won't go ashore now that I know it is private and it is your back yard beach.

How can you get people to keep their distance? The snake was a great idea. A swim rope was mentioned and I like that idea. You'll need a permit I believe. No one should anchor inside your swim line or swim in the area designated by the swim line. A raft would be nice too. With a few Private Property signs (on the raft too) may do the trick.

A less expensive approach would be to buy one of my specialty signs:
DANGER: HIGH VOLTAGE UNDERWATER CABLE - DO NOT ANCHOR and maybe put a big hose or conduit from the land to the water (to look like a High Voltage carrier). It's cheap and may work. No permit required.

Let us know how we can be better neighbors on the lake and good luck to you.
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Old 08-02-2004, 10:20 AM   #18
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Cabinfever,can you be more specific which beaches or parts of the island you are refering to?I spend a least 6-7 weekend days a season rafting around Timber and wouldn't want to be a bother to you people.I would want the same courtesy for myself.I believe most boaters would feel the same if they knew.I think you are correct in saying most rafters think the Island is a preserve and that they have the right to be there.I didn't know when it sold that the remaining land was privately owned.I do now!Good luck. SS
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Old 08-02-2004, 06:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Kerr
A less expensive approach would be to buy one of my specialty signs:
DANGER: HIGH VOLTAGE UNDERWATER CABLE - DO NOT ANCHOR and maybe put a big hose or conduit from the land to the water (to look like a High Voltage carrier). It's cheap and may work. No permit required.
Can you hear my hysteric laughter echoing out of downtown Boston? This is absolutely hilarious!

We started posting a few signs this weekend, and we plan on having professional ones produced this fall. While we were over on the big South end beach Saturday, within two minutes (no exaggeration), 4 boats came in to the cove within ten feet of shore. We asked the largest cabin cruiser (which was coming in very close to anchor) to move offshore because our family was coming over to swim. We explained that we were the property owners and that it was a private beach. They were clearly and completely bewildered and questioned us several times. After a few looks of disgust, the boat moved out. We saw them move to another cove on the West of Timber. (This one doesn't block a beach, so it's fine with me.)

The coves of primary concern are on the West side, and then on the South side near the Witches. The big one on the South is so jam-packed with boats and people on a daily basis, it's crazy. The smaller on the West side is completely blocked with one good-sized boat. As many of you have suggested, we've talked with Marine Patrol administrators and they have advised swim lines in both areas. This will keep boats at a safe distance offshore and convey that it's private property. As for the shore trespassers, new signs and increased Marine Patrols will hopefully help take care of these people. (We walked both shore of these contained areas and pulled out two bags of trash this weekend -- arrgggghhhh.)

For the record, I don't worry about the boats in the Mark Island channel side of Timber or in the big West cove near our cabin. As long as people do not come ashore and keep trash to themselves, everything seems okay here. 22 boats were in the West cove Saturday, but the cove is big enough and far enough from our shorefront. The key to these areas is that they don't block the beaches we're trying to use!
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Old 08-03-2004, 10:48 AM   #20
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On Saturday I witnessed a different situation but somewhat similar. I was anchored in Winter Harbor, when you turn left in front of the Libby Museum & go all the way to the end of the cove beyond the condos on the right out in front of the bridge. A group of 15 on a pontoon boat with several kids decides to anchor, ok no problem and they are quiet not causing trouble. But then 2 adults decide to swim to a private swim raft & climb on it. My wife, a friend & myself are commenting on the nerve of these people & was getting ready to say something. Then the owner apparently shows up on shore with probably a 90lb dog. The owner did not say a word but the dog did, he started barking & began swimming to the raft & the 2 adults moved off real fast.

Just get a big dog that likes to bark & swim, that may scare them off.

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Old 08-03-2004, 04:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PROPELLER
Just get a bid dog that likes to bark & swim, that may scare them off.
Our 95 lb Lab may just do the trick then.
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Old 08-03-2004, 05:33 PM   #22
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Default Even the Marine Patrol does Noise test off your Island

Welcome to Island living from a neighbor over on Camp Is.

I also had a good laugh about the High Voltage Line comment. The problem is Timber, Round,and Camp are some of the only Islands in Gilford without public electrical services. All the cottages maintain there own solar, and or propane generators and appliances.

It adds to the charm...
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:38 PM   #23
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Default cabinefever

I’ve tried to bite my tongue on this one bit I can’t and I’m sure I’ll hear about it but just the same.
You have every right to swim on the beaches but you also do not own the water, or the ground under it. I understand your concern with people anchoring to the shore and crowding the beach. But with all due respect the water is there for all of us to enjoy. This is typical south of the boarder attitude, what’s mine is mine keep away.
Pretty soon people like you will have every cove, sand bar or shallow area posted as a no rafting zone.
Sounds pretty selfish to me but who am I? Just a boater who likes to find a quit spot, like the area you want no boats to be in, to enjoy the sun and relax.
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:37 AM   #24
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Angry Go find another place to relax

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belmont Resident
I’ve tried to bite my tongue on this one bit I can’t and I’m sure I’ll hear about it but just the same.
You have every right to swim on the beaches but you also do not own the water, or the ground under it. I understand your concern with people anchoring to the shore and crowding the beach. But with all due respect the water is there for all of us to enjoy. This is typical south of the boarder attitude, what’s mine is mine keep away.
Pretty soon people like you will have every cove, sand bar or shallow area posted as a no rafting zone.
Sounds pretty selfish to me but who am I? Just a boater who likes to find a quit spot, like the area you want no boats to be in, to enjoy the sun and relax.
Belmont Resident, why don't you go buy your own island and relax. I thing Cabinfever asked nicely for advice and you come on as though you have a right to invade on others for free. When you buy your own waterfront let us all know so we can come visit and see if you like it.
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:26 AM   #25
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Belmont Resident, I have to agree with mousecatcher. When you spend several hundred thousand or more on a piece of property that you can only use a few months a year, then spent many thousands in tax payments every year ( for which you receive virtually nothing in return) you have a right to at least expect a little privacy at your own beach!!! The lake may be for all, but show a little respect for others, with your attitude you are the one being selfish. I am a property owner in Gilford, not water front. I make damn sure that I don't invade others privacy and I don't expect it from others.
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:31 AM   #26
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I don't know where you live,Belmont,but I can tell you that we've worked hard all of our lives to be able to afford a home on the lake.We pay huge taxes,have no town sewer,water ,garbage pickup,mail delivery,streetlights,sidewalks.....sometimes they plow our road and sometimes they don't.But we choose this life because we like a little privacy....a little peace and quiet.Then along comes the weekend boater to excercise his "rights" by anchoring 30' from shore,usually with a boat stereo playing. Thankfully they are in shallow water so they can urinate in the water without coming on shore.And it only takes a few minutes to clean up the garbage.This is why we have PUBLIC beaches....this is why we have PARKS.
Maybe sometime I'll come camp out right next to YOUR backyard while you're having a cookout with your family and see how you like it.
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Old 08-04-2004, 08:52 AM   #27
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It seems to me if your so bent on privacy why did you invest your hard earned money on land attached to a public lake. You should have bought property in Northern New Hampishere or maybe Maine. You knew what you were getting in to when you laid your cash down. Now you want to change the rules. The lake has been public property long before you came along.
Get used to it.
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Old 08-04-2004, 09:27 AM   #28
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When someone inquires/asks so politely about what they can do (if anything) about people placing their boat anchor on their beach and then a few bad apples have to come back with a less than polite comment, that's all it takes to make the island owners adopt an attitude of 'to **ll with you all, I'm blocking everyone out'. It only takes one (in this case a few) bad apples to spoil it for everyone.

Like SAMIAM said, if there were public land abutting yours and people continually came on to it to party, hang out, BBQ, whatever, and were placing their things on your land (in the case of the island owner - anchors on their beach) and using your private dug well as a urination hole, I think you would understand the island owners position. We all want our privacy, we all want our quiet and we all want others to respect that.

Now if we don't, land owners have a right to take measures to keep violators off and this usually means calling in law enforcement - lets take a moment here - take a deep breath - and remember to act like respectful adults (I'm assuming the previous posts are from people over 18 yrs. old). The island owner is TRYING to work with us and work something out that is MUTUALLY acceptable. At least give them the respect they deserve to work this out with all the boaters who use these spots. The island owners want to continue to allow the boaters to use these spots, but want them to not block access to the beach for them (and it is illegal to block access to someone’s beach/land that they own/live on whether they are trying to get there by water or land). Plus - it is a minimum of 150' from shore for anchoring your boat.

Granted this island was not inhabited for some time, so boaters got comfortable with anchoring closer and using the beach - because NOBODY LIVED THERE. Now someone does and boaters need to pay attention to the rules of the lake when anchoring, not to mention practice common courtesy to the land owners. (you can always read on this forum how boaters need/should practice common courtesy toward each other when out on the lake - well I don't think this is really any different when it comes to island owners that must live with boaters on a daily basis).

It's ok to have your opinion and to express it on this forum, we all appreciate being able to do that and to read it, but please do not spoil this anchoring spot for those who use it. Let’s just work with the land owner so that everyone can enjoy their space and time.
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Old 08-04-2004, 08:11 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belmont Resident
I’ve tried to bite my tongue on this one bit I can’t and I’m sure I’ll hear about it but just the same.
You have every right to swim on the beaches but you also do not own the water, or the ground under it. I understand your concern with people anchoring to the shore and crowding the beach. But with all due respect the water is there for all of us to enjoy. This is typical south of the boarder attitude, what’s mine is mine keep away.
Pretty soon people like you will have every cove, sand bar or shallow area posted as a no rafting zone.
Sounds pretty selfish to me but who am I? Just a boater who likes to find a quit spot, like the area you want no boats to be in, to enjoy the sun and relax.
I was asking for some advice and suggestions for a compromise. Instead, I could have taken the route of a jackass and called Marine Patrol and the Lakes Region Trust every time I saw a person trespassing on the protected land and for every time I witnessed a violation (of which there are many). I also could've shut down the rope swing that a tremendous number of people enjoy. Then pretty much everyone loses. Like I said in my first message, "the island is a unique resource whose protected coves offer shelter and beauty to boaters, and I fully want these boaters to keep enjoying it." Is it too much to ask for a way to use a small part of the beach even ONE time this summer? I'm asking for compromises like not tying to the trees on the land, not breaking the laws of the Trust and venturing onshore and using it as a public toilet, and moving boats 25 more feet offshore so we can actually step foot in the water and I don't have to worry about the kids tripping over anchors.

If we saved up and shelled out the money to purchase the property (you could've too) and we are paying the chunky taxes, why don't we have the right to enjoy it even HALF as much as "the visitors"? You come by and tell the kids they can't go over and use their beach to swim because there are too many strangers using it. Thanks a lot guys.

To those of you who did offer helpful advice, my family and I appreciate your help even if we can't figure out a solution. You're the kind of people that truly make this lake a great place to live.

Last edited by cabinfever; 08-04-2004 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 08-04-2004, 09:20 PM   #30
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Outlaw I completely agree with your comments and everyone should read them. Especially those who seemed to take an attitude when the property owner was being as reasonable as they could by asking for suggestions to make the whole situation better for them but not to be rude to the boaters who visit either.
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Old 08-04-2004, 09:44 PM   #31
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Cabinfever-

I for one appreciate the situation that you are in. It certainly does not help when there are a few out there who cannot bring themselves to show a little respect for you, the new owners of this property. I for one respect your request and if I do decide to drop anchor in the area I will be more than happy to keep a respectable distance.

It truely is unfortunate to read some of the responses to your original posting . I don't think what you are asking for is unreasonable whatsoever, and for all you nay sayers out there how would you feel if the situation was reversed... and this was YOUR problem ?

Enjoy your new piece of the lake.
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Old 08-05-2004, 06:10 AM   #32
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Reasonable isn't roping off the water. Asking for help is.
The lake is a resource for ALL to enjoy not just the select few who buy up the land then rope off the water so none can come near them.
The lake has over 10,000 boats on it and the numbers are growing each year. We all have a right to use the lake. I agree with people who have problems with boaters anchoring in front of their homes.
I wouldn't have said anything, but to go around the island roping off all the sandy area's well I just disagree with that and still believe it to be a selfish act. These areas’s are not even near the owner’s home so they cannot complain about boats in their front yard. I and my fellow boaters would not even think of swimming to someone’s raft or anchoring off someone’s front porch. All many of us want is a little peace and quiet away from it all.
As for trash, well you live on an island, it blows in DU... You will probably continue to find trash that is blown out of boats and land on the shore.
I have never seen anyone throw trash in at Timber.
Sorry my reply was harsh but I stand by what I said. Money does seem to breed arrogance
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Old 08-05-2004, 06:54 AM   #33
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Default Asking for suggestions is arrogant?

True arrogance is indicated by the waterfront owners who hop in their boats and charge at you, then yell at you when they come alongside when you're anchored 150 feet off shore and 200 feet down from their dock over a rocky bottom that you want to snorkel over.

Cabinfever was kind enough to ask for suggestions. He was told by the MP to put up swim ropes. Plenty of associations and businesses have swim ropes and have for years. Ames Farm has two roped off areas, which have been there every summer for at least 40 years.

And can we please stop with the hyperbole that NONE of your fellow boaters would swim off someone's raft or anchor off someone's front porch? It obviously has happened in the past, and with the number of inconsiderate boaters on the lake, will happen again in the future. You weaken your argument with all encompassing statements like that.
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Old 08-05-2004, 07:02 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belmont Resident
Sorry my reply was harsh but I stand by what I said. Money does seem to breed arrogance
If money breeds arrogance, what's the root cause of the the insufferable jealously and envy you so outwardly display?

CabinFever - perhaps you should leave your place unlocked and the refrigerator fully stocked so that those who have this overwhelming feeling of "entitlement" can enjoy more of what you have?

Thanks for being considerate and civil with your request. Most people wouldn't have asked for a compromise. Thank you.
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Old 08-05-2004, 07:16 AM   #35
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Question So what is reasonable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belmont Resident
Reasonable isn't roping off the water. Asking for help is.
The lake is a resource for ALL to enjoy not just the select few who buy up the land then rope off the water so none can come near them.
The lake has over 10,000 boats on it and the numbers are growing each year. We all have a right to use the lake. I agree with people who have problems with boaters anchoring in front of their homes.
I wouldn't have said anything, but to go around the island roping off all the sandy area's well I just disagree with that and still believe it to be a selfish act. These areas’s are not even near the owner’s home so they cannot complain about boats in their front yard. I and my fellow boaters would not even think of swimming to someone’s raft or anchoring off someone’s front porch. All many of us want is a little peace and quiet away from it all.
As for trash, well you live on an island, it blows in DU... You will probably continue to find trash that is blown out of boats and land on the shore.
I have never seen anyone throw trash in at Timber.
Sorry my reply was harsh but I stand by what I said. Money does seem to breed arrogance
Despite what I perceive to be the tone of your post, I don't think you or the rest of the people posting re:this are in real disagreement. So far as I can tell everyone thinks that the island owners should get to use the beaches w/o the hassle of having other people interefere with them. Whether the boats are in their front yard or back yard or side yard is immaterial, it's not "our" yard. Swim lines weren't originally mentioned by the owner but suggested as 1 (among some funny and innovative) method(s) of keeping people off, or further back from, the beach. Since "we" don't get to use the beaches anyway I don't see this as anything other than insuring a little space for the owner. This begs the question; How much space is proper ? Are we talking Romney sized swim lines or something more normal ? While I can understand your concern about losing anchorage on the lake (which is only going to shrink over time), balance this against their rights. What would you want if the situation was reversed ?

As for $$ breeding arrogance, I just think your off-base here. Cabinfever posted here asking for some suggestions, some help ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinfever
"The island is beautiful and I'd love for people to continue enjoying its protected coves, but I'm looking for a compromise. How we can enjoy our own investment as much as they are?"
This doesn't sound like arrogance to me.
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Old 08-05-2004, 07:44 AM   #36
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"Money breeds arrogance"....is such a stupid statement,it doesn't even deserve a reply. Soundslike something Al Sharpton would say.
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Old 08-05-2004, 09:21 AM   #37
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Belmont - seriously, I'm sorry that you feel the way you do. It seems you're blowing everything I stated out of proportion and I'd like to put this issue to bed and discontinue what's unfortunately turned into a heated debate. I never said I wanted to go around and rope off all the sandy parts of the island. I stated several problems and asked for help with: 1) not being able to access our own dock without asking anchoring boats in the cove to move two out of every three times we arrive; 2) not being able to access the two beaches that we own because of boats and people; 3) finding a way to educate the public about the conservation easements and private status to help curtail the trespassing activity. I've voiced that I want to find a way to access PART of the beaches for our family to swim in without the risk of jetskis, fishing lines, anchors, and people WHILE CLEARLY STILL allowing boaters to enjoy the coves. Thus the idea of swim lines from Marine Patrol, since these simply relocate the anchoring boaters further offshore for safety; they don't shut down the cove. Can you not move 50 feet? There are three families who own Timber right now, two of which I know are quite large. Out of 135 acres and literally thousands of feet of shorefront, if you think it's unreasonable for 40+ of us to use 100 feet for ourselves who own it versus you who contribute nothing to the island, it sure seems like you're the selfish one.

As for the trash... new, empty Jack Daniels bottles, metal chairs, sleeping bags, and used toilet paper don't blow 150 feet up the hill and behind rocks through a tight tree/brush-woven shore. I know the difference between blown in material and remains from party campsites, picnics, and toilet trips. I've logged miles on this island whereas you haven't. I speak first-hand. You speak anecdotally from the bow of your boat. Please read this clearly so we can hopefully avoid further confusion: I'm looking for a compromise. While everyone else has contributed suggestions, oddly enough you have yet to offer any.

I truly do hope you can continue to enjoy the coves along with us.

Last edited by cabinfever; 08-05-2004 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 08-05-2004, 09:25 AM   #38
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Cabinfever and family have a right to enjoy their property especially the beaches safely. The state recognizes that right by allowing swim lines off the beaches. This is the standard answer to this problem that many landowners with large beaches face. Why is everyone so worked up about that?

But I think Cabinfever expects too much of the public here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinfever
...I'm asking for compromises like ... not breaking the laws of the Trust...
There are no laws of the Trust. There are rules that cabinfever agreed to. The public never agreed to these rules. Cabinfever has the responsibilty to work within the trespassing laws to enforce the rules. As an owner of undeveloped land on a river, I can sympathize. But the general trespassing rule is, if it's not posted then it's not a crime.
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Old 08-05-2004, 12:08 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrc
But I think Cabinfever expects too much of the public here:
There are no laws of the Trust. There are rules that cabinfever agreed to. The public never agreed to these rules. Cabinfever has the responsibilty to work within the trespassing laws to enforce the rules. As an owner of undeveloped land on a river, I can sympathize. But the general trespassing rule is, if it's not posted then it's not a crime.
You are correct, jrc. A matter of semantics, I'm referring only to property trespassing laws as they relate to the conservation easement's guidelines. Marine Patrol has been helping LRCT and the owners to enforce the trespassing laws. Thus, your point of the signs is a good one and we've addressed it in this Forum string as one of the first steps to help.

Last edited by cabinfever; 08-05-2004 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 08-05-2004, 02:02 PM   #40
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I apologize for the length of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belmont Resident
Reasonable isn't roping off the water. Asking for help is.
The lake is a resource for ALL to enjoy not just the select few who buy up the land then rope off the water so none can come near them.
The lake has over 10,000 boats on it and the numbers are growing each year. We all have a right to use the lake.


The lake is a resource for ALL to enjoy - but not someone’s Private Property and more so when there are Conservation Easements involved

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belmont Resident
I wouldn't have said anything, but to go around the island roping off all the sandy area's well I just disagree with that and still believe it to be a selfish act.



Roping off designated swim areas is perfectly within the landowner’s rights per MP to protect the safety of the people using them. To keep boats, jet skis, people fishing and the likes out of a designated area. Can you imagine a young child swimming off their own beach and coming out of the water with a fishing lure in their leg, or stepping on a serrated steak knife that was accidentally dropped in the water by a boater (this is a fact because I have first hand knowledge of this happening), not to mention the other hazards boats and skis can cause a human. Roping off a swimming area is to help teach the swimmers and others out enjoying the lake that this is a safe protected area and not to penetrate it. Without some type of demarcation, we as humans would not be able to communicate to each other as it can not always be verbal.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Belmont Resident
These areas’s are not even near the owner’s home so they cannot complain about boats in their front yard.


Regardless where the sandy areas along any shore line are, whether it be main land or island, they do not have to be 'near' the home to be a potential concern for the home/land owner. The owners still have the right to protect their home, their families, their land, and in this case their obligation to the conservation trust.



Think of it this way - The road by your house became a popular party hang out spot (had one of these when I was a teenager) weekend after weekend, I and about 15 of my closest friends all parked our cars, trucks, motorcycles, atv's... along the side of the road by your house, played our music, BBQ'd our food, talked and laughed a lot and used some big ole' tree on what is technically your property as a port-a-potty for ourselves and our dogs - even though we are standing and walking on public property (town or state owned road) but our vehicle tires (sorta like an anchor) were on your property, we have every right to enjoy ourselves in the road, but my guess is that you would not be very happy with me and my crowd just outside your property regardless how far away from the road your house was. Would you not want to come to some sort of compromise with me and my friends or if we continued to instigate and aggravate you, you would probably want to call the local PD and have them take care of the issue.......
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Old 08-05-2004, 02:10 PM   #41
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Outlaw is right on on this one and I believe 99% of the forum readers would agree with his analogy of people hanging around in front of his house. SS
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Old 08-05-2004, 02:30 PM   #42
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I have concerns about any remaining areas that are being used to anchor, disappearing as Belmont Resident alludes to in his 2nd post, slowly all the undeveloped shore is disappearing & someday, we who can not afford waterfront property will not be able to go to these anchor sites. However, that being said, thats what makes Cabinfevers unselfish attitude all the more reassurring & refreshing. Cabinfever seems to understand this problem us anchoring boaters have & is willing to help us out, AS LONG AS US BOATERS SHOW SOME RESPECT. Maybe if more boaters showed respect the shore front owners would not be so belligerent trying to keep the boaters away. I could not believe the brazeness (is that a word) of the adults climbing on the swim raft (see my earlier post in this thread)

Thanks Cabinfever, for being understanding. Maybe if more shore front owners were like you then boaters would not have bad impressions.
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Old 08-05-2004, 03:46 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PROPELLER
Maybe if more shore front owners were like you then boaters would not have bad impressions.
Here! here! Propeller, couldn't agree with you more. And vise versa, if more boaters were as respectful and courteous as you, than land owners and other boaters would not have anything to complain about (what are the chances of that happening ).


Cabinfever - let us know what we can do to help you.

Last edited by Outlaw; 08-05-2004 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 08-05-2004, 05:10 PM   #44
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I've been on this lake since I was a child. My parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents grew up summering here on an island that's been in the family since the late 1800s. In the 25 years before we became property owners, we were waterskiers, barefooters, sailors, powerboaters, kayakers -- you name it. Anything that allowed us to hang out on the water all day long, we did it. Honestly, this is why I'm so sympathetic to the boaters alongside my own concerns! This is why I put out a message for ideas on this Forum. But I didn't intend for it to get so controversial.

I'm grateful to Outlaw, Siksukr, SamIam, Propellor, Mee-n-Mac and the many others (including the polite private messengers) who found the time to offer helpful suggestions and counter some of the nastiness that cropped up mid-string. Thanks to you, I think I have a good plan and genuinely hope that any changes that come along are harmless to others.

Enjoy your summers, everyone. Stay safe. Signing off...

cabinfever

Last edited by cabinfever; 08-05-2004 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 08-05-2004, 06:38 PM   #45
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I think it is a commendable act for cabinfever to look for answers/suggestions that might appease both the land owners of Timber Island, and the other people that would like to enjoy it also. Hopefully will all make out in the end. Play nice people.....
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Old 08-05-2004, 08:10 PM   #46
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Default Sorry cabinefever

I apologize if I read too much into what you were trying to accomplish.
Every summer this subject comes up and every summer some land owners believe they own the lake in front of their property. With that type of attitude eventually no one will be able to get off their boat and touch bottom. That coupled with someone saying that the beaches over at Timber have been roped off.
I spent some time this afternoon trying to get the subject of who owns the lake clarified by the people who issue the permits for swim areas over at the Marine patrol headquarters. This is what I was told.
The lake is not private property for starters. From the waters edge to the deepest point it is all there for public use. Same as someone walking down the road in front of your house, they are also on the same public property... As long as a person’s feet are wet they are in essence standing on public property. Once they step onto dry land they are trespassing.
A roped off swim area is also public property. All the rope is supposed to do is keep boaters out. That is why all swim areas must be completely closed off at both ends. The water within that area is still open to all who wish to venture in and swim so long as they do not come onto land.
So I’m sorry if I took this to heart but I get passionate about the subject based on previous postings by land owners such as you. It wasn’t so much what you said but others who feel they own the lake in front of their property that set me off.
Also know that I do not nor have I left any trash on Timber Island or any other shore on the lake. My wife and I almost always pick up anything we see floating in the water. I’ve acquired a nice queen size air mattress and an assortment of life jackets, bumpers and throw able floats over the years floating in the lake.
That being said good luck with your new place.
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Old 08-07-2004, 12:38 PM   #47
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I wish I had a dollar for every time Belmont accused shore owners of thinking they "own the lake" in front of their place.I don't know anyone who isn't aware of th law regarding the high water mark.We are speaking about common courtesy,not who owns what.We always wave and smile at people "crusing' the shore looking at homes.We enjoy the parade of boats as well.They're checking us out and we're checking them and it's a lot of fun.We don't appreciate,however,people who anchor right in front of a family gathering.Most people are polite and thoughtful of others,but a few are not.
But,I'll tell ya,Belmont........the rental boats and bass boats are saints compared to the ice fishermen......but that's another story
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Old 08-10-2004, 07:42 AM   #48
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You sound like someone who would build a house next to Disneyland then
whine about traffic and screaming kids. maybe the state should close the lake
on weekends so you people from mass can sit on your sandy beachs without
being bothered.

You should get a big black and orange sign that says "FOR SALE" on it, pack all
your junk up and go back to Massachusetts don't they have a big lake down
there? I'm sure it's not filled with New Hampshire residents crying about
boaters in front of their sandy beach
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Old 08-10-2004, 08:19 AM   #49
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I hate to think that Lord Helmet is a representive of my state of NH.I would hope you understand he/she is probably just trying to stir things up.No need for that kind of attitude on this forum. SS
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Old 08-10-2004, 08:42 AM   #50
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Cabinfever..why should we employ Marine Patrols precious time to make sure you don't have any boats anchored off your shores?? As has been mentioned several times as long they don't put foot on land they are doing absolutely nothing illegal! You had to know before you bought the property that this was a popular high traffic area..didn't you venture out onto the island to see what the boat traffic was like before you inveseted in the property?? If you didn't you probably should have. And Samiam..the water snake story is deplorable!! You frightened a bunch of innocent kids because they were too close to your beach?!?! How about asking them to please move instead of giving the poor kids nightmares for weeks to come and probably making them so scared they would never set foot into Winni waters again! I think that story is far from funny..I think it's kind of sick to be honest.
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Old 08-10-2004, 09:04 AM   #51
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People are coming ashore illegally. This seems to be a big part of the issue here. They have every right to be upset about it.
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Old 08-10-2004, 10:32 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaChick
And Samiam..the water snake story is deplorable!! You frightened a bunch of innocent kids because they were too close to your beach?!?! How about asking them to please move instead of giving the poor kids nightmares for weeks to come and probably making them so scared they would never set foot into Winni waters again! I think that story is far from funny..I think it's kind of sick to be honest.
I thought the water snake thing was hysterical. Those frightened kids have a wonderful story to tell for the rest of their lives.
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Old 08-10-2004, 10:56 AM   #53
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Konachick, if you read Cabinfevers previous posts, he/she does not have a problem with anchoring in front of the beach, just give them some space so they can also use it too. I don't think that is too much to ask. Cabinfevers posts suggest they wish to share, not eliminate boats anchoring.

I think its commendable that Cabinfever has taken this approach & I hope he/she does not change their mind after reading some of these posts. Cabinfever could have taken the approach many shorefront owners have, like not asking for advise & putting in swim lines.

Cabinfever could take down the famous swing rope also. No one has a right to use it since they do not own the property.

BTW, I think the snake story is hilarious, don't be so melodramtic.
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Old 08-10-2004, 11:59 AM   #54
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That's funny I thought I was being sensitive to the children..come on over to my beach Propeller and make sure to bring your children. We can laugh the day away at their reactions to the 3' water snake I let out into the water when they least expect it. Hey better yet..my neighbor is legally blind, why don't we invite him over and when he sits down pull out his chair!! This could be fun! A regular laugh-riot!! Oh and by the way..stop being so insensitive to innocent children who have no say in where their parents bring them or let them swim!
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Old 08-10-2004, 12:18 PM   #55
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I suppose kids being exposed to many of the violent TV shows, movies etc would not be nightmare material? Telling ghost stories around the campfire does not scare kids? Give me a break.

Did you see the movie, The Great Outdoors with John Candy & Dan Akroyd? There was a story about a bear that John Candy encountered allegedly & he scared the kids, hilarious.

No, I don't have a problem telling kids a scary ghost story or playing a joke like with the snakes, I liked it as a kid. None of these kinds of things happened to you as a kid?
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Old 08-10-2004, 12:23 PM   #56
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So Konachick, you have a beach? All us boaters who anchor around the lake should come over to your beach & set anchors so you & the family can not swim & injure yourself on the anchors, see how you like it. Your post seems to indicate that its ok to do this in front of Cabinfevers beach, how bout yours?
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Old 08-10-2004, 03:08 PM   #57
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No Propeller no one intentionally released a 3' water snake into the water where I was swimming..perhaps i led a sheltered life. You do realize John Candy was playing a character and that MOVIE was just pretend...
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Old 08-10-2004, 05:48 PM   #58
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Default Re-read the above posts please

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaChick
Cabinfever..why should we employ Marine Patrols precious time to make sure you don't have any boats anchored off your shores?? As has been mentioned several times as long they don't put foot on land they are doing absolutely nothing illegal! You had to know before you bought the property that this was a popular high traffic area..didn't you venture out onto the island to see what the boat traffic was like before you inveseted in the property?? If you didn't you probably should have. {snip}
First things first, if you read the posts above you'll see that nowhere did CF ask to have the MP remove "any boats" (I've added emphasis above), any meaning all the way you've written it, from the shorelines. The word compromise was mentioned at least twice. As for a high traffic area, Outlaw's posts are dead on. It's not so much a question of legal or not, but rather a question of proper or not. Honestly put yourself in the position of a waterfront owner. Would you mind having multiple boats tied together anchored 1 foot from your front (side, back, whatever) yard ? Having said boats block your access by water to/from the shore ?? Swim lines (suggested by the MP, not CF) and no rafting zones (not yet discussed herein) are 2 methods of trying to work out the compromise between boaters and landowners rights as there are competing legitimate interests.

The question of public access and private use of beach area has come up before re: ocean front property. The rulings I'm familiar with, and I'd opine are pertinent to this discussion, tend to allow public access to areas below the high water mark (it's private land above). All well and good but they also aren't interpreted such that someone can have a party on the public land during low tide. The public access below private land is transitory in nature. Again the watchword was compromise, trying to respect both parties legitimate concerns.

I asked in a previous post and I'll ask again how far out would you be willing to tolerate anchored boats ? As a boater I too don't like the loss (from competing boats and/or increased housing development) of good anchorage but I also try to adhere to the old adage of walking a mile in the other guys shoes. I wouldn't like having boats anchored just off my dock, forcing me to run a veritable obstacle course to go to/from the lake ... forcing me to listen to their music instead of the more meliforous notes of umm, say a high powered "offshore" boat Some consideration for the other guys concerns was all that was being asked for. Barring such consideration we're all going to see more of the above 2 solutions, and likely even more restrictive approaches, as time goes by.
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Old 08-10-2004, 08:08 PM   #59
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I wouldn't want to tolerate it at all...the real question is are they breaking any laws? Probably not! moot point!
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Old 08-10-2004, 08:09 PM   #60
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People should stop beating up on Cabinfever. She stated she is trying to work out a reasonable solution that I think anyone of us would want to do in the same situation.

I went around Timber Island last Friday and today. Friday I did not see anyone moored in such a way as to interfere with a beach useage. Today I saw 3 large (>25') boats rafted together. They could have been blocking a beach but due to their size I am not sure it was a beach behind them. Heck I do not even know where the beach in question is on the island.

Half the island on the NW side is well marked and I think better marking of the island is needed and Cabinfever noted that too.

Let's give Cabinfever a chance to see what she can do with all the good info that has been provided here.
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Old 08-11-2004, 07:42 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaChick
I wouldn't want to tolerate it at all...the real question is are they breaking any laws? Probably not! moot point!
Were those neighbors you were complaining about in July breaking any laws? Probably not! Moot point!
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Old 08-11-2004, 08:14 AM   #62
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Konachick....you should have been there when I threw that snake in.....never saw so many arms and legs flapping in my life......we laughed ourselves silly.Poor little children are probably in therapy now.
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Old 08-11-2004, 08:17 AM   #63
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Konachick....you should have been there when I threw that snake in.....never saw so many arms and legs flapping in my life......we laughed ourselves silly.Poor little children are probably in therapy now..Oh,by the way,Dave....I can't move back to Mass. I was bron and raised right here in the lakes region.
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Old 08-11-2004, 08:32 AM   #64
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Propeller they actually were breaking the headway speed law of 150' I was fairly confident about this but just wanted to ask for some advice just to make sure I was correct about the situation. Actually that weekend they broke about 3 different boating laws Anyway....I'm gracefully bowing out Propeller. We'll have to agree to disagree about the water snakes. If you want to frighten a group of adults who are being obnoxious so be it..to frighten children in that manner who are innocent is just wrong. I'm not posting again but I'm sure you will Hey when that same group off Timber Island decides to raft off my beach maybe I'll be writing again for more advice. After all isn't that what this forum is about? Different opinions and maybe some sound advice. Take care Prop and hopefully it won't rain to much this weekend!
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Old 08-11-2004, 10:21 AM   #65
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Actually, Konachick the headway speed law Skip quoted says that it does not apply when starting skiers from shore, dock etc as long as no one or boat etc is endangered. Your post did not indicate anyone or anything was endangered, just sounded like it was a nuisance.

And yes this Forum is for advise, that was the whole point of Cabinfevers thread so why dump on Cabinfever with such attitude in your posts. Posters were curteous & friendly when you wanted advise with your problem & if you reread your thread I was on your side. I would have been more curteous than your neighbors.

Thats all Cabinfever is looking for, some curtesy not if any laws were broken.

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Old 08-11-2004, 12:35 PM   #66
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Cabinfever, I was over in the area this past weekend and saw an array of boats. I noticed that there was still a relator's (sp) on the island. Maybe if you slapped a big "sold" across it, you could eliminate some of the confusion.

The swimming net is a good idea. I don't see why it wouldn't be fair if an area was roped of for swimming. Like you said, there are other places to anchor. True, nobody owns the water but people have a right to their own privacy and the welfare of their residence. Throwing trash on the island is trespassing and littering, and should not be tolerated.

You could also put a flagpole on the beach if it's possible. Having a flag on the island might send a clue to people that it's populated.

What do the other two families on the island think of this dilemma?
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Old 08-11-2004, 11:04 PM   #67
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Thumbs up Cabinfever and Rafting off Timber Island

I think Cabinfever came to the forum in a very nice and friendly way looking for relief from a reasonable and annoying concern. I commend the Cabinfever family for their approach and attitude in this matter (and for keeping your fever down after reading a few of the posts in this thread ).

I too am one of many that has occasionally dropped anchor around Timber Island over the years. I don't recall going on to the beach in that one little cove we'd visit - but my kids may have at some time. They would enjoy any beach respectfully - no screaming, leaving no trash or other mess (we have trash containers and an enclosed head on board that my family and guests use especially right after I pump it out). Since that beach is now privately owned we will take due notice thereof and govern ourselves accordingly. I hope others do the same.

And if you, Cabinfever, take too much grief about this I wouldn't blame you for putting up swim lines - but I thank you for not going that route as your first option. I hope you get to fully enjoy your island property and I wish you best of luck. Thanks for trying to find a compromise solution - I hope it can be done. Remember, (somebody famous said) you can not please all the people all the time

This may or may not be the area Cabinfever wants to access via land or boat. This picture from 2001 is a SMALL raft just off shore of Timber Island. I've seen considerably larger rafts there (but didn't have a camera).

This is NOT the area between Timber and Mark Islands but around the corner and south of that.
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