Can you believe what Innisfree Bookshop did to my 13 yr.old?

[sea_n_ski]

Even though we live in So. NH, we make it a point to shop and have dinner in Meredith every Christmas. Bootleggers, Yikes and Oglethorp's are the best stores to shop in and have wonderful merchandise. They each bend over backwards to help you out. We do this so they can stay in business and to show our appreciation for being there during the summer. Its not convenient, but we have done this for 10 years. This year my 13 yr old daughter went into Innsfree Bookshop and bought a couple hardcovers for her sisters. Once we got home she found they had read them already. We tried returning them and Innsfree said "No refunds only store credits". I explained that $34 was a lot for a 13 yr. old and that she had no way of using a store credit. They were extremely rude and suggested I give my daughter the money and I use the credit! They handed me the credit. I told them that they were about to lose a very good customer who has faithfully made purchase for 10 years. Now there were 3 of them pointing to a silly sign that said " No refunds". Give me a break. It was like they were ready for a fight in whihc they felt justified for their bully like actions towards a little girl. I explained to them if I went to Barnes & Noble they would give me a refund and now my daughter doesn't have money to buy her 2 sisters presents. The said " That's your problem". I gave my daughter the money and no I have this worthless credit. Can you believe this? We are in a recession and they are biting the hand that feeds them. I have always disliked going into Innsfree because of their attitude. Now I don't have to worry about it, because I never setting foot in there again and I suggest you do the same.

[brk-lnt]

A lot of independent shops seem to be really belligerent about their "no refunds" policies.

I try to support local companies as well, until they convince me not to. It's an expensive lesson for a 13 year old, but at the same time, a potentially good one to learn early... Consider return policies, and how you are treated as a customer, when spending your cash.

[skprbob]

I certainly agree that the staff at the bookstore has no excuse for being rude to you. They should have pointed out the sign explaining the store policy, then enforced it politely. I presume that sign was there when you were purchasing the books in the first place, so you should have been aware of the policy - especially if you patronize the store frequently.

[KonaChick]

I'm a little confused (not saying much)!! If she bought her sisters books as Christmas gifts only to discover that her sisters had already read the books she purchased then why not just go buy some books that her sisters had not read yet and give those to them as their Christmas gifts. While I agree being rude to customers isn't good for business (especially in this economic climate) I'm not sure how a 13 year old is "out" $34 when she could very easily find something different at the store to purchase and give to her sisters for the holiday.

[ITD]

Never mind, read original post wrong, caveat emptor, if the sign is there then that is the policy. You shouldn't be bashing them publicly for this.

[Irish mist]

It sounds like from reading your complaint that there was some tension in your relationship with the business even before this incident. I always check credit, and return policies these days when I make a purchase. I may not always like, or agree with the store policy, but if there is a sign that makes the store policy clear I either shop there or not. The old "buyer beware" thing.
________
MAZDA CAPELLA PICTURE

[jeffk]

They shouldn't have been rude but if all they did is firmly enforce their posted policy that's not rudeness. Some stores stand on their heads to give the customer what they want. Other stores stick tightly to policy. There are benefits and costs to either approach.

It seems to me that stores have the right to post and enforce what policies they choose and we have the right to buy there or not.

I also wonder why some other books couldn't have been bought as gifts instead. You also called the credit worthless? It's a decent size bookstore with a fair selection of books and a variety of other types of gifts. It seems you should have been able to find something now or in the foreseeable future that you could use so I wouldn't call the credit worthless.

[pats fan]

I agree with Konachick. If your daughters intention was to purchase books for her sisters than simply buy different books that they have not read. You also commented that you have been such great customers for 10 years. If that is the case than you obviously have spent tons of money in this store so a $34 credit is peanuts. Just use it. I agree that IF the sales people were rude, they should not have been. However, stores have policies and if this is their policy than you should not be upset that they will not change their policy for you.

[Pineedles]

There is something not right here.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

My wife and I make it a point to find out what books my son would like to read before we buy.

[jetskier]

It seems unworthy to be taking up forum space and time on this one. Exchange for another couple of books and move on. This is just nonsense.

Jetskier

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jeffk

"...It seems to me that stores have the right to post and enforce what policies they choose..."

Especially a book store! Who'd want a book store that became a library?

[twoplustwo]

... to teach your daughter a few lessons regarding knowing your return options when purchasing things (try Target's return policies if you think Innisfree's are bad). Rudeness shouldn't be a part of the equation, but accepting that a store's posted policies are something its employees are bound to abide by and finding a better solution than bitching about it would've taken you a lot farther in this situation.

Besides a ditto to the obvious 'buy some other books' suggestions, Innisfree has CDs, games, toys, puzzles - plenty to choose from in terms of a different gift for her sisters. I could buy myself $34 worth of fun stuff in a heartbeat in that gem of a store.

[JDeere]

If the store policy is no to refunds and you do not like it then don't buy there. The rant that you could not find 2 other books in the store or some other way to spend the $34 is not at all believable.

Seems to me that you had the attitude and not them.

[Coolbreeze]

I would use the rules of ten, tell ten people about the rude employee and poor store policy and that you will never go there again. The ten you tell will tell ten more and so on...

[Kamper]

Many book stores have some degree of "No Return" policy. Face it, there are a lot of people who would read the books and then return them. At least here they offer you a credit towards another purchase.

It's regrettable that children are involved but life does not always respond to your wishes and 13 is old enough to take responsibility for yourself. It's a hard lesson but the store was being reasonable to offer credit for another purchase.

Whining about not getting your way is childish. I'm not talking about your daughter.
----

[secondcurve]

Sea-N-Ski:

Use this as a lesson for your daughter about checking the return rules before she purchases goods and then have her pick out two new books. I worked in retail when I was in college and I met many folks like you. Everyone needs to realize that rules apply to them as well as other patrons.

[SAMIAM]

In spite of that story,I'd incourage everyone to please buy local whenever possible.That is the only way we'll all get through these tough economic times.We bought E.M.Heath gift cards for staff and recently replaced computers at Lakes Region Computer in Moultonborough (instead of a big box store) There is something for everyone right in our little towns.....a gas card or G.S. from a local store......and,your favorite restaurant.....all practical and useful gifts.

[Island Life]

Looks like you lost a bookstore AND a forum! As you can see by the responses, people are very protective of local businesses and don't take kindly to public trashings. So maybe you should vent to friends and not to the forum because, as you've read, people vent back at you.

By the way, I've always loved Innisfree and make a point of going there a couple times each summer. I never noticed they were rude; just the opposite.

[sky_nh]

Originally Posted by Island Life

Looks like you lost a bookstore AND a forum! As you can see by the responses, people are very protective of local businesses and don't take kindly to public trashings. So maybe you should vent to friends and not to the forum because, as you've read, people vent back at you.

Bashing those who have issues with local retailers will only make consumers find alternative ways to express their displeasure -- and they always do. Why put up with grief from local boosters who would rather stick their collective heads in the sand? So, consumers take their complaints elsewhere -- blogs, other forums, BBB, emails to various lists, etc.

From a marketing standpoint, shielding retailers from what consumers are thinking is not doing those retailers any favors. For each consumer who complains here, justified or not, ten more are thinking or feeling the same thing.

The ONLY antidote to a negative customer attitude is to listen to it and respond professionally and with the goal of keeping the customer happy. Usually that works, sometimes it doesn't. Ignoring the problem never works 100% of the time! The "Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil" approach is a quaint and useless form of local boosterism that contributes to lost sales and baffled store owners.

While we have a right as members of this forum to expect candor and honesty from people who comment on their retail experiences, trying to shut them off because we want to protect "our own" is counterproductive.

-- Sky

[Island Life]

sky_nh, sorry, I can see how you mistook my comment as bashing of the complainant. In fact, I was appalled at the responses he got - quite rude - and that's what I meant when I said people vent back. Sea_n_ski was complaining, probably hoping to hear from some people who have had similar experiences and could empathize, and instead he got an earful of rudeness. I'd call that backfiring.

[twoplustwo]

My daughter and I spent plenty at Innisfree yesterday, and my poor dead desktop is going into Tom's (Lakes Region Computer) today where they'll either bring it back from the dead, or put together specs on a new one for me. We are fortunate to have so many wonderful local businesses here.

Sea, I think the Innisfree owners run their shop up north. Maybe calling them and discussing it with them would help you feel better about the experience, and help them make enforcing their return policies be done in a more delicate way in the future.

[KonaChick]

I think the forum is a great place to vent about any issue that's on our minds concerning the lakes region as long as we stay within the parameters of the forum rules. I enjoy reading people's different points of view on things and at times it has brought to light something that I had not thought of before. Island Life I don't see the responses as being rude at all (with the exception of maybe one). I see people sharing their views in a straightforward and honest way. Happy Holidays to all and let's hope that sea n ski has had a change of heart and decided to spend the credit at Innsfree on some wonderful merchandise for her daughters!!!

[shooter]

Originally Posted by JDeere

If the store policy is no to refunds and you do not like it then don't buy there. The rant that you could not find 2 other books in the store or some other way to spend the $34 is not at all believable.

Seems to me that you had the attitude and not them.

There are always exceptions to rules and policies, and this is a prime example where ten dollar per hour employees dont give a rats tail about the store the customer or the business. any good faith store will always make an exception no matter what the rule. the children should have got their money back no question, and I for one will look up their web site if they have one and tell them they just lost another customer.

[eyenotall777]

Was there return/refund policy clearly visible at the time of purchase? Is it printed anywhere on the receipt?

If the store/management decided to make one exception, then they would have to do it for everyone. That is why they have a policy. A small place like that could not stay in business or make a living if they override their posted policy.

I understand you were looking for the original payment method as the refund, but it sounds like there policy is only store credits and they can do that as long as it is posted.

Maybe they should consider a refund policy of original payment if returned within 2 days of receipt.

Barnes/Noble is 14 days.

[Pineedles]

"ten dollars per hour employees dont give a rats tail about the store"!

It is hard to secure company loyalty with this hourly pay scale. However, if you don't have a job, I would suggest that you tell them to get over their individuality and support the company that is paying them a paycheck!

This is what I have told my employees, in so many words, and would tell the employees of the bookstore!

Originally Posted by shooter

There are always exceptions to rules and policies, and this is a prime example where ten dollar per hour employees dont give a rats tail about the store the customer or the business. any good faith store will always make an exception no matter what the rule. the children should have got their money back no question, and I for one will look up their web site if they have one and tell them they just lost another customer.

[Seeker]

I'm sorry but stores have rules and their employees must abide by them. Doesn't matter if you agree with them or not. I cannot believe the daughter could not find something else to give her sisters for the refund amount in that establishment ( I have never been there but based on responses they have a varied selection of items).
True , there should be some leeway but that also depends on the attitude of the customer. Believe it or not they're NOT always right.
I am reading this that the sisters had already read the particular books that were picked out. If in fact the books were previously read by someone else (read "used") then it is a different problem altogether and the amount should have been refunded in cash and the store should get a spanking.
Just my .02

[nj2nh]

As a loyal Barnes and Noble customer who only gets to Innesfree (sadly) once per year, I have to give my two cents. It is indeed unfortunate that the complainant's daughter bought books her sisters already had. However, that is not the fault of the bookstore. Bookstores are not libraries where you can return something you don't like or don't want or have already read (as I discover far too often!!!!). There are plenty of stores where you only get a store credit including, remarkably, the Christmas Tree Shops. The policy is the policy. It is a lesson in being a wise and careful shopper.

Moreover, the daughter could have purchased any one of a gazillion other things in Innesfree so the store credit is hardly useless by any stretch of the imagination.

Had this been my 12-year-old or 15-year-old, I would have told them to get over it, learn a lesson, buy something else and MOVE ON.

I have to say, however, that I am mightily impressed that the complainant's daughter bought something for her sisters. This would never even occur to my boys. The fact that the READ for goodness is a miracle from my point of view. Books are something to be endured in my house. I have yet to convince my children that they are something to be enjoyed - sometimes over and over and over again.

As for rude, well, I would guess that, over time, the man complaining might realize they weren't quite as rude as it seemed at the time. They were only the messengers after all and weren't exactly in a position to make an exception. Had the owner been there and been rude, that would have been different. Given the current economic atmosphere, people have to do whatever they can to hold on to those precious jobs.

Down here in Jersey, things are bleak and getting bleaker. I have a friend who worked in Linens N' Things. Job gone. My best friend's husband is being laid off in March. His company is outsourcing his computer tech job to India. I have another friend who is a computer tech for AIG. Amazingly, he still has his job, but doesn't know if he will tomorrow. It's ugly out there, people. We have to be kinder than necessary. You never know what is going to happen.

Again, though, I applaud the daughter for buying gifts for her sisters. My kids can't keep their money long enough for it to get comfortable in their wallets!

nj2nh

[SIKSUKR]

Sounds very much like that Lobster Pound customer in a thread this summer.You lose all credibility by saying it's a worthless credit.It's only worthless if you choose not to use it.2 thumbs up to your daughter for her thoughtfullness.

[Colt]

I always thought you couldn't return books, DVD's, and CD's no matter where you bought them.

My family and I have always liked the place. They seem to have a good handle on what people in the area are interested in. The toys and gifts to the right of the store are amazing, the buyer is very sharp creative. The store is always clean and inviting. It seems like "Ski" shared my opinion up until this incident. It suprises me that he'd let one isolated incident end a 10 yr relationship. It really suprises me he would then go and bash the establishment in a public forum.

I urge people to visit Innisfree and form your own opinion. If you blindly take "SKI's" advice you're missing out.

[VitaBene]

Based on the title of this thread, I thought that the 13 year old had been wrongly accused of shoplifting or some other misdemeanor! The OP overreacted in this case- all they really "did" was enforce their policy. The policy that was in front of her daughter's face when she bought the books (OK, OK I have a 13 year old too!) and in front of the mom's when they were returning the books. Without being there it is hard to judge the level of customer service they received. I have been to the store in question, it is a good store with a decent selection. I can't speak for the CS, I have never returned a book there.

To respond a bit to a comment above, I think that I, and the majority of my fellow forumites, do not blindly support businesses just because they are local-they earn that through excellent service, good value, and quality.

[Colt]

In fact, to his/her last point, the forum will and has given it to some local businesses in the past. If they think there is a local business that's not representing the community well...you can bet they'll let everyone know.

Now I need top do some Christmas shopping.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by sea_n_ski

Even though we live in So. NH, we make it a point to shop and have dinner in Meredith every Christmas. Bootleggers, Yikes and Oglethorp's are the best stores to shop in and have wonderful merchandise. They each bend over backwards to help you out. We do this so they can stay in business and to show our appreciation for being there during the summer. Its not convenient, but we have done this for 10 years. This year my 13 yr old daughter went into Innsfree Bookshop and bought a couple hardcovers for her sisters. Once we got home she found they had read them already. We tried returning them and Innsfree said "No refunds only store credits". I explained that $34 was a lot for a 13 yr. old and that she had no way of using a store credit. They were extremely rude and suggested I give my daughter the money and I use the credit! They handed me the credit. I told them that they were about to lose a very good customer who has faithfully made purchase for 10 years. Now there were 3 of them pointing to a silly sign that said " No refunds". Give me a break. It was like they were ready for a fight in whihc they felt justified for their bully like actions towards a little girl. I explained to them if I went to Barnes & Noble they would give me a refund and now my daughter doesn't have money to buy her 2 sisters presents. The said " That's your problem". I gave my daughter the money and no I have this worthless credit. Can you believe this? We are in a recession and they are biting the hand that feeds them. I have always disliked going into Innsfree because of their attitude. Now I don't have to worry about it, because I never setting foot in there again and I suggest you do the same.

In one sentence you say "you have been making purchases there for 10 years" and at the bottom you say "you have always disliked going there". What the..........if you were so unhappy for 10 years.....why keep going back. I think theres more to this story....especially since we have not heard back from Sea & ski

[SAMIAM]

What do you want to bet that the store has another side of the story.I'll bet they will say that they politely explained the store's policy and the customer went into a rage and screamed at the clerks while flipping them off as they stormed out the door.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

What do you want to bet that the store has another side of the story.I'll bet they will say that they politely explained the store's policy and the customer went into a rage and screamed at the clerks while flipping them off as they stormed out the door.

Sam, good point- I am a huge believer in the adage that there are three sides to every story.

[Tired of Waiting]

Originally Posted by sea_n_ski

I explained that $34 was a lot for a 13 yr. old and that she had no way of using a store credit.

Read up on the LAW!! I believe that the UCC and state code allows a MINOR to cancel out from a contract "sale" and the other person must return the money.

A 13 year old is not of age to enter a contract and allows them to return the item and get a FULL refund, CASH if paid that way.

I did not research NH law but it might be of benefit if you did some research.

I may be wrong and sending you on a goose chase but that is the way it was not long ago.

ToW

[Tired of Waiting]

Did a little looking around for you. This is from the NH Atty. General site:

Under some special instances, no matter how much gets said or written down, a contract may not be formed or the law may not enforce an agreement. For example, some people do not have the age (such as minor children) or mental capacity that the law requires to make their contracts binding. A contract is unenforceable if the purpose is illegal or repugnant to social policy, such as contracts for gambling debts or murder for hire. Contracts brought about by fraud often cannot be enforced. In rare cases, contracts found to be legally "unfair" may not be enforced in whole or in part.

You can go to the link below and complain to the AG.

http://www.doj.nh.gov/consumer/pdf/conscomp.pdf

ToW

[Lakesrider]

Customer service in this country has taken a nose dive. And has been doing so for years. Pay should have nothing to do with it. If they didn't like the $10.00 per hour they were getting paid they shouldn't have taken the job. Let someone who needs the job or wants the job get it instead.
Sad that the store did not refund the money and keep a customer from spreading ill will on a public forum, during Christmas, however. Times are tight, Instead of boycotting the store someone should notify the manager or owner, politley and calmly, of the experience and see what happens from there. You might be surprised. Don't just head for the AG, That office will do absoultley nothing with this.

Merry Christmas....I guess?

[M/V_Bear_II]

Originally Posted by Tired of Waiting

Did a little looking around for you. This is from the NH Atty. General site:

Under some special instances, no matter how much gets said or written down, a contract may not be formed or the law may not enforce an agreement. For example, some people do not have the age (such as minor children) or mental capacity that the law requires to make their contracts binding. A contract is unenforceable if the purpose is illegal or repugnant to social policy, such as contracts for gambling debts or murder for hire. Contracts brought about by fraud often cannot be enforced. In rare cases, contracts found to be legally "unfair" may not be enforced in whole or in part.

You can go to the link below and complain to the AG.

http://www.doj.nh.gov/consumer/pdf/conscomp.pdf

ToW

I'm not sure how any of that relates to the situation at hand. The sale is not a written contract.

If your argument is that the "no refunds" policy is an implied contract, then I would argue that the minor child's parent, by virtue of his or her presence, gave his or her implied consent to the implied contract.

And no law was broken in this instance. If the OP really believes that the bookstore committed an unethical or simply rude act, the place to complain is not the Attorney General, but the Better Business Bureau.

[topwater]

I truely cannot believe for the life of me that someone ACTUALLY IMPLIED, that a store has to take a return back, even though its againest thier policy because of someones age (13). THINKING LIKE THAT is one MAJOR problem this country has, and that is -- LACK OF COMMON SENSE !!!!!!. Don't like going there = DON'T. I hope you do not have a boat, because lack of common sense is not what we need on the lake.

[Kamper]

A contract, in the simplest terms is a quid-pro-quo. "I do/give this and you do/give that." It does not need to be signed or in writing. A price tag is a proposal of sale and is a part of the contract terms which include a merchants legitimate policies.

On those grounds I bet an argument can be made the sale to a minor was an invalid contract since it did not include food, shelter or clothing which are the normal things a minor has a right to contract for.

Unless you can prove fraud the AG will not nromally get involved in a contract dispute as it is civil law to be settled between the parties involved and if one party desires, tried in court.

If a parent or guardian were present during the sale it might be argued they authorised the purchase and therefore the adult is liable not the store.

If I were merchant threatenned witht a suit over a $34 sale I'd tell the complainant "Go ahead." I don't know what filing fees cost but they are more than $34. Plus a wait of 6-18 months for a court date. The case would have to be filed in the district the sale took place. Most employers will not pay you for time off for a civil suit that you are a party to. If either party misses the court date a default decision will normlly be enterred against them.

Even if I agreed with member sea_n_ski, I would suggest this is not worth the fight. I think one of our lawyer members will stop laughing eventually and give their opinion.

BBB is not a government organisation. They are a customer service advocacy organisation. They forward complaints to the concerned merchant and if the complainant does not write again to say the problem is not resolved, they mark the file "resolved" after a certain amount of time. Only after a number of repeated complaints do they note in their reports 'merchant has a number of unresolved complaints regardng ...' (or similiar). They don't actually investigate and they can't rate a merchant's behavior or they would be liable for anything they can't prove as true at the time the statement was made. I have spoken with the BBB once and this is what I was told by them.

(BTW - Merry Christmas everyone. I hope sea_n_ski's children all got presents they enjoyed and will cherish.)

[Skip]

Originally Posted by sea_n_ski

...We tried returning them and Innsfree said "No refunds only store credits"...They handed me the credit...I gave my daughter the money and no I have this worthless credit...

Regardless of the claims that led to this incident, (as we all remember, there are three sides to every story) when the poster accepted the credit from the store under their policy of "no refunds" the contract was fulfilled and the implication is, because the poster admittedly accepted the refund, that the poster indeed was the authorized purchaser.

While the poster may not agree with the store's policy, by making a purchase under their terms and then accepting a store credit the poster, under NH consumer laws, has no legal recourse.

As has been pointed out, the AG will not normally get involved in a dispute such as this unless an allegation of criminal intent can be shown. The "no refund" policy at the store indicated, under the conditions stipulated, is a common accepted business practice. And while its not very good for business, there is no law against rudeness. If ths poster wishes to pursue the complaint further, I would sugggest contacting the NH Better Business Bureau HERE.

When I read complaints such as these, I look for a pattern. If I am not familiar with the poster I may go back and read the poster's history, to see if there is a history of complaining. I also read the whole thread to see if other posters have had the same experience, or experiences of an opposite nature. As always I remain cognizant that a person's perception of an event can be very different than what actually happened.

I have no problem reading someone's opinion of a local business, unless it was malicous in intent. I don't think that was the case here.

That said, and reading of opposite experiences from other posters about the same business, I would be willing to chalk this up as an isolated event and would be willing to shop at this establishment.

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by Tired of Waiting

Read up on the LAW!! I believe that the UCC and state code allows a MINOR to cancel out from a contract "sale" and the other person must return the money.

A 13 year old is not of age to enter a contract and allows them to return the item and get a FULL refund, CASH if paid that way.

I did not research NH law but it might be of benefit if you did some research.

I may be wrong and sending you on a goose chase but that is the way it was not long ago.

ToW

This line of reasoning is what is wrong with America these days.

[jetskier]

The fact that there are over 40 posts on something this inane is what is wrong with America. I am sure that there are more productive things that we can focus on.

Just my 2 cents (and unproductive posting).

Jetskier

[TomC]

Originally Posted by jetskier

The fact that there are over 40 posts on something this inane is what is wrong with America. I am sure that there are more productive things that we can focus on.

Just my 2 cents (and unproductive posting).

Jetskier

where can I send the $34 to kill this thread???

[Tired of Waiting]

Originally Posted by M/V_Bear_II

I'm not sure how any of that relates to the situation at hand. The sale is not a written contract.

This is where you are wrong. It IS a contract. A contract does not have to be in writing. When you take an item and present it to the cashier, they take your money and give you the item and a receipt a valid contract has been executed. Words don't even have to be exchanged.

A contract requires but three things. One party giving something, 2. a person giving compensation for that thing, and lastly a meeting of the minds.

ALL three things are met with any sale in a store even without words being spoken.

A 13 year old is not of legal age to enter into a contract and therefore can void that contract at any time.

ToW

[Diana]

If this was the case, why would any merchant in their right mind make any sale to a minor? If the transaction could be voided for any reason on the grounds that it was not a valid contract?

[M/V_Bear_II]

Originally Posted by Diana

If this was the case, why would any merchant in their right mind make any sale to a minor? If the transaction could be voided for any reason on the grounds that it was not a valid contract?

Exactly.

ToW, I never contradicted anything you said about the definition of a contract. I only noted that a retail transaction, while still a contract, is not written. I added the qualifier in my initial post because there is a lower threshold for compliance and enforcement.

I am pretty sure there is case law on this, but I am not a lawyer, and I'll defer to any civil attorneys on the forum.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by M/V_Bear_II

Exactly.

A retail transaction, while still a contract, is not written. I added the qualifier in my initial post because there is a lower threshold for compliance and enforcement.

I am pretty sure there is case law on this, but I am not a lawyer, and I'll defer to any civil attorneys on the forum.

While there are specific legal contracts a minor child (under the age of 18) cannot enter into....such as a credit card or term payments on merchandise, the entire spectrum of purchasing is not prohibited or conditioned, based on common law practices.

While we all seem to agree that a purchase is a contract, the blanket belief that a minor cannot "enter into a contract" by making a purchase is not correct. Remember, in law & life there is always an exception!

A simple sales transaction is valid if the person making the purchase has the mental capacity to make such purchase. In common law terminology, barring mental incapacitation it is generally accepted that a child greater than the age of seven has the mental capacity to make some purchases. In the case we are talking about, barring some condition we have not been made aware about concerning the 13 year old, then common law would dictate the child had the mental capacity to enter into the purchase and is subject to the same requirements an adult would have.

Could you imagine the chaos that would envelop the retail world if any minor could ignore store policies and demand a full cash refund on a purchase? Especially when you consider that individuals under the age of 18 purcahse an estimated 50 billion dollars worth of merchandise in this country every year!

As always with things legal, a good deal of common sense and life experience must be invoked when trying to interpret the tangles and twists that make up our civil and criminal codes!

[Tired of Waiting]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana View Post
If this was the case, why would any merchant in their right mind make any sale to a minor? If the transaction could be voided for any reason on the grounds that it was not a valid contract?

Originally Posted by M/V_Bear_II

Exactly.

ToW, I never contradicted anything you said about the definition of a contract. I only noted that a retail transaction, while still a contract, is not written. I added the qualifier in my initial post because there is a lower threshold for compliance and enforcement.

I am pretty sure there is case law on this, but I am not a lawyer, and I'll defer to any civil attorneys on the forum.

Pleas use this link as a reference.

New Hampshire Department of Justice:
http://doj.nh.gov/consumer/sourcebook/1st_word.html

Please read these word carefully! They are not my words but from the NH Dept. of Justice!

“Under some special instances, no matter how much gets said or written down, a contract may not be formed or the law may not enforce an agreement. For example, some people do not have the age (such as minor children) or mental capacity that the law requires to make their contracts binding.”

The minor is not voiding a contract as the contract never existed in the first place. When I said the minor could void the contract I misstated what I was trying to say. The contract never existed in the first place so therefor the transaction is not enforceable by the merchant.

As for why a merchant would do business with a minor? Because it’s good business. Very few minors try to void their sales and fewer folks know that they can. In the long run the merchant makes out from these sales.

Here’s more from the same link. This goes to the heart of the issue at hand for the credit only policy:

“The terms "unfair or deceptive act or practice" and "unfair method of competition" have developed special legal meanings yet remain difficult to define. Often people have a different idea of what is "unfair or deceptive" than do courts or lawyers. For example, a retail store may have a policy of refusing to grant refunds, granting instead credits only to be used at the store. Many consumers think that such a policy is "unfair" or "deceptive." However, if the policy is fully and accurately disclosed to customers by the store then a court will very likely enforce it.”

Again these are not my words but from the Dept of Justice.

ToW

[angela4design]

Well, the good thing is that the Forums are on fire again!

But, really, I'm thinking about the POLICY of Innisfree's. I've been there - the sign is prominent. The clerk also mentioned this to me upon my purchase. I was surprised when she mentioned it, but I guess it's been a real problem for them. People do a quick read, then bring books back! How can small businesses survive that over an extended period of time?

It's funny that we're talking about laws as it relates to contracts and minors -I think that's a bit much. It was a hard-learned lesson. And I think that a store credit IS valuable. They have TONS of stuff in that store - games, puzzles, toys, stationery and oh yeah - books!

My guess is that her daughter won't make this mistake again! And as for posting the thread in the first place - a bookstore hasn't gotten as much discussion in a long time!

[nj2nh]

I have been monitoring this thread on and off since it started. I even posted something that I thought was quite restrained, but I have run out of restraint. I am a lawyer, but a criminal one so have nothing to offer on contracts.

However, I do have this to offer. OMG! Move on! Get over it! Grow up!

The kid didn't do anything wrong other than fail to check to see if her sisters had the books she went and bought. And what 13-year-old is going to do that?

The store didn't do anything wrong. Their policy was posted, period. Whether the clerks were rude will never be known since eyewitness testimony is the least reliable kind and there are two sides to every story, including this one. If you think they were rude, then don't shop there again. But to challenge the "contract?" I think not. Not everything is actionable and this is one of them. The is why lawyers have such a bad reputation - our litigious society drives us to it. Do you know why coffee cups now say, "Caution, contents may be hot!"? Because some idiot spilled coffee on herself and sued McDonald's because of the resulting burn. Are you kidding me?

At fault? Dad! Once he saw the sign or was told of the policy, that should have been the end of it. There is no point is showing your daughter how to be obnoxious and rude unless you want her to be that way, too. If my kids needed to return something and the clerk said that the policy is that they could only get a store credit, I would take it and get something else. These books weren't the only ones in the store.

So, get over it and move on!

nj2nh

[Lakepilot]

Originally Posted by nj2nh

I have been monitoring this thread on and off since it started. I even posted something that I thought was quite restrained, but I have run out of restraint. I am a lawyer, but a criminal one so have nothing to offer on contracts.

However, I do have this to offer. OMG! Move on! Get over it! Grow up!

The kid didn't do anything wrong other than fail to check to see if her sisters had the books she went and bought. And what 13-year-old is going to do that?

The store didn't do anything wrong. Their policy was posted, period. Whether the clerks were rude will never be known since eyewitness testimony is the least reliable kind and there are two sides to every story, including this one. If you think they were rude, then don't shop there again. But to challenge the "contract?" I think not. Not everything is actionable and this is one of them. The is why lawyers have such a bad reputation - our litigious society drives us to it. Do you know why coffee cups now say, "Caution, contents may be hot!"? Because some idiot spilled coffee on herself and sued McDonald's because of the resulting burn. Are you kidding me?

At fault? Dad! Once he saw the sign or was told of the policy, that should have been the end of it. There is no point is showing your daughter how to be obnoxious and rude unless you want her to be that way, too. If my kids needed to return something and the clerk said that the policy is that they could only get a store credit, I would take it and get something else. These books weren't the only ones in the store.

So, get over it and move on!

nj2nh

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Hippie Girl]

Hello sea_n_ski,

I would use the store credit to buy something else, why let the store have twice the money? Maybe donate the store credit, to someone who could use it to buy books that they could otherwise not afford. But check store policy before hand to see if the store credit is transferable.

Happy New year!

HG

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Tired of Waiting

Quote:
Please read these word carefully! They are not my words but from the NH Dept. of Justice!

“Under some special instances, no matter how much gets said or written down, a contract may not be formed or the law may not enforce an agreement. For example, some people do not have the age (such as minor children) or mental capacity that the law requires to make their contracts binding.”

The minor is not voiding a contract as the contract never existed in the first place. When I said the minor could void the contract I misstated what I was trying to say. The contract never existed in the first place so therefor the transaction is not enforceable by the merchant.

ToW

This seems to have already been addressed by Skip in his previous post. There are different levels of contracts. A minor can not sign a charge card or loan agreement but it is common law understanding that a child over the age of 7 DOES possess the mental capacity to participate in simple purchase agreements.

So the child could enter into such a purchase contract and the store does promote its policy. Take the credit and buy something else.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by TomC

where can I send the $34 to kill this thread???

Amen, I'll chip in also.

[Pineedles]

Have any of you looked at what happens when you put "sea_n_ski's" home page into the browser? http://www.commonplaces.com/ shows up. Don't bother clicking, it is another startup looking for publicity. We are such dogs (myself included) Pavlov, that is!

[Ropetow]

What we really need is a Probe to determine if this thread has reached Celebrity status or if it is just a Tempest in a teapot.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Ropetow

What we really need is a Probe to determine of this thread has reached Celebrity status or if it is just a Tempest in a teapot.

I was planning to go to Innisfree to see if they buy used books, I have a few I'd like Ter-cel.

[Sunbeam lodge]

[QUOTE=Colt;86277]I always thought you couldn't return books, DVD's, and CD's no matter where you bought them.

My family and I have always liked the place. They seem to have a good handle on what people in the area are interested in. The toys and gifts to QUOTE]

I would agree with the writer. I enjoy browsing and purchasing locally. I would like to suggest they make some kind of arrangement that would allow you to sit and enjoy reviewing some of the books before purchase. One of the big drawing cards of the large chains is the ability to make people comfortable while they decide what to purchase..

[fatlazyless]

It's been a while since I've been to the Innisfree, but I recall it to be a large, brightly lighted, and very well stocked book, cd, and accessories store.

Hey, if you walk around Meredith, what you'll see is that the locally owned independant businesses get replaced by the chains.

Right here in small town Meredith NH, we have Dunkin Donuts, Olympia Sports, McDonalds, Aubuchon Hardware, Hannaford's, Meredith Village Savings, Irving Gasoline, Cumberland Farms, Laconia Harley Davidson, Middleton Lumber, Loverly Volvo, and four, white & green waterfront hotels & a Mobil gas. All multi-store chains that want to do business in Meredith due to its high traffic, routes 3 & routes 25, up-front, high visibility, commercial location.

It used to be you'd have a store like the Meredith Center store which was food-gasoline-mail, and everything else that could sell, but not any more, at least not in Meredith.

Innisfree is an independant, one of a kind store that does a terrific job and a much better shopping experience than the chain bookstores.

[KonaChick]

So the burning question is...did sea_m_ski break down and use the credit on some other gifts?? Inquiring minds want to know!!!

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

So the burning question is...did sea_m_ski break down and use the credit on some other gifts?? Inquiring minds want to know!!!

Interestingly, Sea-n-ski hasn't been back to the forum since posting his/her complaint!

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

So the burning question is...did sea_m_ski break down and use the credit on some other gifts?? Inquiring minds want to know!!!

Yeah... that one has just been keeping me up at night...

Complaints like this are a wonderful reminder of the pitfalls of working retail and people who think that rules apply to everyone but them.

[Waterbaby]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Interestingly, Sea-n-ski hasn't been back to the forum since posting his/her complaint!

I noticed that myself, in fact was just going to say the same thing -- luckily I read through the posts before making that comment!

[M/V_Bear_II]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Hey, if you walk around Meredith, what you'll see is that the locally owned independant businesses get replaced by the chains.

It has nothing to do with Meredith - that's the way it is all around the country.

Right here in small town Meredith NH, we have Dunkin Donuts, Olympia Sports, McDonalds, Aubuchon Hardware, Hannaford's, Meredith Village Savings, Irving Gasoline, Cumberland Farms, Laconia Harley Davidson, Middleton Lumber, Loverly Volvo, and four, white & green waterfront hotels & a Mobil gas. All multi-store chains that want to do business in Meredith due to its high traffic, routes 3 & routes 25, up-front, high visibility, commercial location.

It used to be you'd have a store like the Meredith Center store which was food-gasoline-mail, and everything else that could sell, but not any more, at least not in Meredith.

I'm confused - what's the point here? The Meredith Center Store is still there and locally owned. Meredith Village Savings is, unsurprisingly, based in Meredith. Lovering Volvo is an independent business, but they can't possibly sell locally designed and produced cars, so they have a Volvo franchise. And all those hotels are owned by a local.

In fact, I'd say that high-traffic areas make it easier for independent businesses to survive.

Innisfree is an independant, one of a kind store that does a terrific job and a much better shopping experience than the chain bookstores.

They do a terrific job, certainly, but the relative quality of the shopping experience depends on what you hope for in your shopping experience. If you're looking for someone to recommend a book for you based on other books you liked, then a small bookstore is better. If you know a book that you want, and you want to leave the store with it today, you may have a better chance at a chain. The small stores would have to order it.

That said, I always shop independent booksellers first. But I often end up at a one-stop media market, online or in a strip mall, anyway.