Proposed Law

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

All true above. Frankly people would be amazed at what little rights they actually have. Freedom of speech ... well not so much really ... political speech and artistic expression have been ruled protected but anything else falls under the will of the people. Think you have the right to marry the person you love .... ha !

So let's come to speed laws, be they on the lake on on land. What "we" want is reasonable limits should they be needed. It's not a question of rights perse but rather on how much Govt limitation we're willing to accept. That the Govt has the power to impose all manner of restriction doesn't make it "right", it's just that it's the best way we humans have of trying to decide what to do. In talking about reasonable restrictions I have to bring up the old NMSL of 55 mph. Did you ... or pretty much anyone ... agree with that ? I'll guess 'no' given how ignored that law was. Why was that ? I ask this question because the answer goes to the heart of the whole debate.

What's a reasonable restriction ? What makes it so ?

I maintain that a blanket restriction of 45 mph across all of Winni and at all times is too restrictive and better could be done.

Finally something we can agree on. 25/45 would not have been my first choice. In fact I have always thought a horsepower limit was the way to go. But HB847 is better than the nothing we have now.

It would have been better if the opposition had come up with a viable compromise or alternative instead of the "No Limits!" stance that is doomed to lose in the long run.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Finally something we can agree on. 25/45 would not have been my first choice. In fact I have always thought a horsepower limit was the way to go. But HB847 is better than the nothing we have now.

But that (better than nothing) doesn't make it the thing to advocate. So let me ask, if you were King what would the law be ? and why ?

Why a HP limit since HP doesn't regulate speed as can be evidenced by PWCs.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

But that (better than nothing) doesn't make it the thing to advocate. So let me ask, if you were King what would the law be ? and why ?

Why a HP limit since HP doesn't regulate speed as can be evidenced by PWCs.

My choices are HB847 or nothing, I choose HB847. It's like when you vote for president next November. We will only have two choices.

A horsepower limit does more to address pollution, water quality, and erosion.

I posted this last summer.

If I had the power to set a "limit" it would preclude boats over 300 hp that where manufactured after 2008. But nobody is asking me.

[Cal]

To prove a point(or at least try)how rediculous 25/45 is in my own opinion. Ever been out on a moonless night. I did one night from Weirs Beach to the Naswa. Not bad till I passed Naswa then it was like a black hole , 25 mph would be ludicrous. I turned around and headed back to the Naswa were I was staying. So people who want 45 limit on a clear Wednesday afternoon would be willing to allow 25 in pitch darkness. Sounds to me like they have their head somewhere awfully dark or they're just out there where the bus doesn't stop anymore.
I'd be willing to give 10 mph at night for 60 mph in daylight. There you go , I give 15...you give 15...even trade
And this , Bear Islander , may have saved your friend in the Wellcraft that fateful night two and a half years ago , regardless of how much alcohol was ingested.
Good night folks

[winnidiver]

Just some thoughts.
Most weekends you can't go over 45 without beating yourself and your boat to death.
If you look at the way hiway speed is enforced I would guess you can probably go 60 without a ticket.if the speed limit were 45.
If you go out early you can probably go as fast as you want no one is around.
I know everyone here is a careful boater who always uses common sense,but Go though Eagle anytime on a weekend.Or take ride up past Arey's on
a weekend morning or afternoon when the crowd is going out or coming in, and if you are honest you will admit that most people are too stupid or lazy to follow he rules.If two boats passing each other slow down the third will go right between them.The bigger the boat the less inclined people are to slow down.
None of these people are going any near 45 and are dangerous enough.Now people on this forum want to make sure you can go 60 down Meredith bay on SAT afternoon or up Between Bear and Meredith Neck.Sixty would be legal now as long as you are 150' from another boat.Is it safe?I know none of you guys would do this but some one will,they do now.You are all talking a lot about Kayaks,what about small fishing boats,kids in whalers there are lots of small boats on the lake.
I don't want to see a speed limit on the Lake but more and more people keep coming,just like you have to slow down in a town on the road you are going to have to slow down on the lake.If people only went fast out in the Broads with no one around this would not be an issue.Like some one once said."Common sense aren't too common"

[bilproject]

While I have only owned a place on Bear Island for a year, I have been coming to the lake for almost 40 years. Not much has changed except there are a lot more people. Boat owners have been building more powerful and faster boats since the days of the steam ships, and that will continue. Fishermen and others will still be in smaller boats for enjoyment of the more secluded and shallow areas. Someone will want to see how fast they can go down the broads in a speed boat.
While I am not an advocate of government involvement in any part of my life, a seed limit on some parts of the lake may be a good idea, along with a ban on kayaks canoes and other small boats on other parts of the lake.
Small non power boats should be restricted to 150' from shore period. They have no ability to avoid a collision and are in danger any time the leave the shoreline. Face it, lake Winnipesaukee is a big lake and is not paddler friendly which is why it is not a favorite of paddlers. There is nothing fun about kayaking in the broads or in the middle of the area between Bear and Browns yet we see this happening.
I could go on about the night I came back at 10:30PM from Brown"s to find a canoe passing in front of my boat house with no lights to other stories. In summary my proposal.
1 Speed limits on entire lake except the broads from Becky's Garden to Rattlesnake.
2. Ban non motorized vessels from all areas other than within 150 feet of shore.

Most of the lake will be speed limited, paddlers will be safe. and go fasts can get their thrills! Every interest involved gives up something and gets something. A winner for all! O yea you all should be nicer to each other some of these post are getting a little personal!!!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by bilproject

While I have only owned a place on Bear Island for a year, I have been coming to the lake for almost 40 years. Not much has changed except there are a lot more people. Boat owners have been building more powerful and faster boats since the days of the steam ships, and that will continue. Fishermen and others will still be in smaller boats for enjoyment of the more secluded and shallow areas. Someone will want to see how fast they can go down the broads in a speed boat.
While I am not an advocate of government involvement in any part of my life, a seed limit on some parts of the lake may be a good idea, along with a ban on kayaks canoes and other small boats on other parts of the lake.
Small non power boats should be restricted to 150' from shore period. They have no ability to avoid a collision and are in danger any time the leave the shoreline. Face it, lake Winnipesaukee is a big lake and is not paddler friendly which is why it is not a favorite of paddlers. There is nothing fun about kayaking in the broads or in the middle of the area between Bear and Browns yet we see this happening.
I could go on about the night I came back at 10:30PM from Brown"s to find a canoe passing in front of my boat house with no lights to other stories. In summary my proposal.
1 Speed limits on entire lake except the broads from Becky's Garden to Rattlesnake.
2. Ban non motorized vessels from all areas other than within 150 feet of shore.

Most of the lake will be speed limited, paddlers will be safe. and go fasts can get their thrills! Every interest involved gives up something and gets something. A winner for all! O yea you all should be nicer to each other some of these post are getting a little personal!!!

First, welcome to Bear Island!

Second, you need to think about your idea some more. Do you realize your idea restricts sailboats to 150' from shore? And if a buy another canoe, how do I get it to the island?

If you are going to restrict small boats shouldn't you also restrict swimmers to 150' from shore, they have even less visibility and capability to get out of the way.

Plus it seems obvious to me that if powered boats and unpowered boats can't co-exist in an area, it is the powered boat that needs to go.

And have you considered the impact of your idea on children's camps?

[bilproject]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

First, welcome to Bear Island!

Second, you need to think about your idea some more. Do you realize your idea restricts sailboats to 150' from shore? And if a buy another canoe, how do I get it to the island?

If you are going to restrict small boats shouldn't you also restrict swimmers to 150' from shore, they have even less visibility and capability to get out of the way.

Plus it seems obvious to me that if powered boats and unpowered boats can't co-exist in an area, it is the powered boat that needs to go.

And have you considered the impact of your idea on children's camps?

I left out sail boats as I consider them powered and highly visible.. Children's camps should be restricted to 150 ft from shore or have a larger defined area around their water front. Had to rescue a kid from 3 mile clinging to a overturned sunfish over by Pine. As we came apon the kid there was another life jacket floating by the boat. Don't know where the adults were but this was very scary thinking someone was in that jacket. Add no wake zones to the area non power boats are allowed and we can get to bear from y-landing. Bear Islander the point really is that the speed limit is only addressing part of the problem. Kayaker"s are often in places that they should not be. We see it all the time on Barnegat bay here in New Jersey not to mention in inlets to the ocean where 50 foot Hattaras's come in at 20 knots just so they can handle the waves and tide action and there's that kayak right in the way!!.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by bilproject

I left out sail boats as I consider them powered and highly visible.. Children's camps should be restricted to 150 ft from shore or have a larger defined area around their water front. Had to rescue a kid from 3 mile clinging to a overturned sunfish over by Pine. As we came apon the kid there was another life jacket floating by the boat. Don't know where the adults were but this was very scary thinking someone was in that jacket. Add no wake zones to the area non power boats are allowed and we can get to bear from y-landing. Bear Islander the point really is that the speed limit is only addressing part of the problem. Kayaker"s are often in places that they should not be. We see it all the time on Barnegat bay here in New Jersey not to mention in inlets to the ocean where 50 foot Hattaras's come in at 20 knots just so they can handle the waves and tide action and there's that kayak right in the way!!.

Well I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion. I will content myself with the belief that your idea has no chance becoming law.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bilproject

Kayaker"s are often in places that they should not be. We see it all the time on Barnegat bay here in New Jersey not to mention in inlets to the ocean where 50 foot Hattaras's come in at 20 knots just so they can handle the waves and tide action and there's that kayak right in the way!!.

You can't tell this to some kayakers because theirs is a Sea kayak and it's made for big water and can withstand 4' waves and they have every right to go where ever the want to , regardless

I've seen the inlet deal you mentioned also. Kinda like riding a bike on an interstate , but then again there are restrictions for than

[bilproject]

Originally Posted by Cal

You can't tell this to some kayakers because theirs is a Sea kayak and it's made for big water and can withstand 4' waves and they have every right to go where ever the want to , regardless

I've seen the inlet deal you mentioned also. Kinda like riding a bike on an interstate , but then again there are restrictions for than

Your analogy of a bike on the interstate is exactly my point. It would be stupid unsafe and illegal for me to power boat around Minge cove at 30 mph. It is also stupid, unsafe and should be illegal to be in a Kayak in big parts of the lake. Maybe Bear Islander showed what is really behind the speed limit since it is not going to make it safer for Kayaker's, and that is "the power boats should go." First a speed limit, then when it is still unsafe to be in the middle of the lake in a 12' x 18" boat with 6" of sideboard we ban the power boat all together. It seems there is more than enough shore line to explore and many smaller lakes in the area to paddle. My proposal involves a speed limit and a limit on areas of safe operation of smaller vessels. Down here the coast guard or marine police catch you in a channel or boat way in a kayak you get a ticket for unsafe operation of a vessel.

[Hottrucks]

All this talk about the Kayaks makes me wounder ?? I'm ask in a serious manner here

Why do kayaks need or want to be out beyond the 150 feet we are talking about...I don't kayak but when I think about it I think about going up small rivers and into back coves where there are less people and quiet... or hanging close to shore ( again Not alot of boats there) watching people waveing to the guy cooking something on the grill or saying hi to the family laying on the dock catching a few rays or looking into there yards to see things I wouldn't see in my bayline cruzing around..... A kayak is a stealth mode of transportation less intrucive than any other boats.....

That being said I don't think anyone wants to see a 24 foot plus boat of any type trolling less than 150 feet from shore..but yet it's funny how nobody seems to bother or mind the guy in his GFBL bass boat when he's trolling around on his electric trolling motor stealing fish from under the dock or from around the boat house......

I have seen the light we all need electric boats!!!!

[fatlazyless]

What about me and my fleet of dirt cheap, little, fixer-upper boats? For prices like $100, 300, 250, 550, 150, 100 & 700 , I have a collection of three kayaks, one rowboat, one canoe, and two sailboats, and none even need to be registered, and are covered by the standard deluxe homeowners insurance as long as there's no engine or motor.

In the past ten years, there's been a big increase in the number of kayaks on Lake Winnipesaukee. Used to be I'd see an occaisional canoe with two paddlers. Now, it is very common to see kayakers crossing from Timber Island and across the three miles of open water to Horse Island enroute to either the Cattle Landing public dock and parking lot, or enroute to Lovejoy Sand's public parking lot & dock or on up to Center Harbor, somewhere. I'm seeing trains of kayaks out in the middle of the area between buoy 3 and Governor's Island pretty often, where in the past, this was a very rare occurance.

Probably, the kayak's popularity is due to its' low cost, inherent safety & stability as compared to a canoe, ease of use, light weight ease to cartop, no need for a trailer, no need for a registration, aerobic paddling exercise, and all-around fun to use. Also, no expensive gasoline needed.

Kayaks are truly a boat for everyone and can be purchased at some pretty low prices, at garage sales & stuff. Last October, I got myself a ten year old, 16' Aqua Terra made out of polypropelene for the low low, end-of-season, garage sale price of just $250, and am looking forward to paddling it over to the Naswa for an adult beverage. Does the Naswa NazBar still have a one dollar/drink, happy hour.....like in the the olde daze?

Having seen plenty of overweight "go-fast, bolster boys" climb out of their well-padded and very expensive go-fasts over at the Meredith Town Docks, it's obvious that lots of you guys could benefit from the physical exercise of paddling a kayak. Maybe you want to give a kayak a try.


Lose the fat, paddle a kayak, get a wicked sunburn, and pack along some granola, too!

[Bear Islander]

It makes me laugh out-loud when it's suggested that I support speed limits because I hate speed or powerboats. I hate powerboats so much I moved to an island. I have owned several. I ride PWC's in a way that makes my neighbors question my sanity. I rent them now instead of owning because I keep breaking them.

I hate speed so much that last Tuesday I rode a centrifuge up to 6 gravities, an incredible ride! I did that as part of my training to ride a rocket at 3,000 miles per hour. Yeah... I hate speed!

[bilproject]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

What about me and my fleet of dirt cheap, little, fixer-upper boats? For prices like $100, 300, 250, 550, 150, 100 & 700 , I have a collection of three kayaks, one rowboat, one canoe, and two sailboats, and none even need to be registered, and are covered by the standard deluxe homeowners insurance as long as there's no engine or motor. In the past ten years, there's been a big increase in the number of kayaks on Lake Winnipesaukee. Used to be I'd see an occaisional canoe with two paddlers. Now, it is very common to see kayakers crossing from Timber Island and across the three miles of open water to Horse Island enroute to either the Cattle Landing public dock and parking lot, or enroute to Lovejoy Sand's public parking lot & dock or on up to Center Harbor. I'm seeing trains of kayaks out in the middle of the area between buoy 3 and Governor's Island pretty often, where in the past, this was a very rare occurance.

Probably, the kayak's popularity is due to its' low cost, inherent safety & stability as compared to a canoe, ease of use, light weight ease to cartop, no need for a trailer, no need for a registration, aerobic paddling exercise, and all-around fun to use. Also, no expensive gasoline needed.

Kayaks are truly a boat for everyone and can be purchased at some pretty low prices, at garage sales & stuff. Last October, I got myself a ten year old, 16' Aqua Terra made out of polypropelene for the low low, end-of-season, garage sale price of just $250, and am looking forward to paddling it over to the NASWA for an adult beverage. Does the NASWA still have a one dollar/drink, happy hour?

Having seen plenty of overweight "go-fast, bolster boys' climb out of their well-padded and very expensive go-fasts over at the Meredith Town Docks, it's obvious that lots of you guys could benefit from the physical exercise of paddling a kayak. Maybe you want to give a kayak a try.

I own and use a kayak but never father than 100 ft from shore. It's just to dangerous with power boats around at greater than headway speed. But I think you have hit on why a speed limit has come up as Kayaks are everywhere now. Again I pose the question. Is a speed limit the prelude to banning power boats on the lake? There has to be more to this for people to support a law that will not, no as the marine police have already demonstrated CAN NOT BE ENFORCED.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Having seen plenty of overweight "go-fast, bolster boys" climb out of their well-padded and very expensive go-fasts over at the Meredith Town Docks, it's obvious that lots of you guys could benefit from the physical exercise of paddling a kayak. Maybe you want to give a kayak a try.


Lose the fat, paddle a kayak, get a wicked sunburn, and pack along some granola, too!

Wait a minute, could it be that Less' screen name is a stratagem????? After all, one fat guy would not point out another's fatness.

Maybe his true screen name would be svelt assiduous rich

(yes I used a dictionary)

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by bilproject

O yea you all should be nicer to each other some of these post are getting a little personal!!!

Just as one would expect in a family discussion...

After all, this is a family oriented Forum.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by bilproject

. . . While I am not an advocate of government involvement in any part of my life, a seed limit on some parts of the lake may be a good idea, along with a ban on kayaks canoes and other small boats on other parts of the lake. Small non power boats should be restricted to 150' from shore period. They have no ability to avoid a collision and are in danger any time the leave the shoreline.

Kayaks are very maneuverable and have all sorts of ability to avoid a collision; the only danger for me is the powerboats. If the operator of a powerboat is paying attention and is going slow enough to stay 150 feet from us, we are in no danger of a collision.

Just like others on this forum, you’re lumping all paddle boats and paddlers together. That’s like saying that all boats with a motor are equally sea worthy. A sea kayak is very different from a recreational kayak – they are long and narrow, with a very small cockpit, with thigh braces. You sit in a recreational kayak, but you wear a sea kayak. Sea kayaks are designed for large bodies of water, and most sea kayakers have no trouble handling fairly large waves. My sea kayak even has a rudder, which I steer with my feet. And I happen to enjoy paddling in large waves and swells. Believe it or not, my sea kayak can handle conditions that would be too rough for many small powerboats.

And my sea kayak is powered – by me. What happens when a power boat’s motor dies? I even carry an extra paddle. And I can do self rescues. I also carry a bilge pump, and use a spray skirt in rough weather. I don’t kayak at night, but if a paddler is out on the water at night their boat is required by law to have a 360 degree light.

Face it, lake Winnipesaukee is a big lake and is not paddler friendly which is why it is not a favorite of paddlers. There is nothing fun about kayaking in the broads or in the middle of the area between Bear and Browns yet we see this happening.

Just because you can’t see the fun in paddling out on the main lake, doesn’t mean that we don’t enjoy it – I enjoy paddling out in the middle of a lake way more than I do huggin the shore . You guys keep representing Winnipesaukee as such a huge lake. It is large, but it has so many islands that there’s only about 2 square miles of the entire lake where you are ever more than 1 mile from shore. Under normal conditions, I can paddle 1 mile in 10 to 12 minutes. I don’t consider being 12 minutes off shore all that far. I can paddle 20 miles in an afternoon, so I need a large lake, or I’m just going around in circles. The only reason that Winni is not a favorite with paddlers is not because of its size, but because of its reputation for high speed boats.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

You guys keep representing Winnipesaukee as such a huge lake. It is large, but it has so many islands that there’s only about 2 square miles of the entire lake where you are ever more than 1 mile from shore. Under normal conditions, I can paddle 1 mile in 10 to 12 minutes. I don’t consider being 12 minutes off shore all that far. I can paddle 20 miles in an afternoon, so I need a large lake, or I’m just going around in circles.

2 miles x 1 mile = 2 sq miles

(2 miles + 1 + 1) x (1 mile + 1 + 1) = 12 sq miles

What happened to the other 60 sq miles of the Lake?

Not good enough for you?

Great! Then there is no need for a speed limit on the 60 sq miles of the Lake that you prefer not to use.

Here's a look at your kayaking area (2 miles x 1 mile = 2 sq miles)...

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by GWC...

2 miles x 1 mile = 2 sq miles.
(2 miles + 1 + 1) x (1 mile + 1 + 1) = 12 sq miles. What happened to the other 60 sq miles of the Lake? Not good enough for you? Great! Then there is no need for a speed limit on the 60 sq miles of the Lake that you prefer not to use.

GWC, it is bad enough that you feel that you have to attack every thing that I post, but you totally lost me on this one! What are you talking about? What is the 12 square miles supposed to represent?

First of all, I do know what 2 square miles is. My point (since you obviously didn’t get it) was that, even though Winnipesaukee is a large lake, there’s only a very small part of it where you can ever be more than a mile from shore.

I never said (or even implied) that the only part suitable for sea kayaks was the portion that was over a mile from shore – my point was exactly the opposite – that the lake is very suitable for kayaks, since 98% of it is within a mile of shore (where I’m never more than 12 minutes from shore). The only portion that I would personally consider to be “off-shore” is the part that is more than a mile from shore (which is less than 2 square miles). Here’s a link to an image, where I’ve marked this “off-shore” portion of the lake: http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9...lelimitkw1.jpg

Now please get off my case!

Originally Posted by bilproject

You would actually have the whole 4.6 seconds to respond. . . . Reducing speed does help reduce the likelyhood of an accident but does not prevent it. Reducing speed will now give the kayaker in this example 2.6 seconds to dip their paddle in the water. The other 2 seconds will go to their brain processing the situation and reacting.

You guys really need to go kayaking with me, because then perhaps you would be able to understand what I’m posting. When I’m out kayaking, I’m not just sitting there! I’m paddling 90% of the time, which means that I’m moving at about 5mph (which is my normal cruising speed). I’m also paying close attention to any powerboat that is headed in my direction. So, in my example, it would not take me 2.6 seconds to dip my paddle into the water, nor would it take me another 2 seconds to react. I would have reacted before the powerboat was 300 feet away.

I only used 300 feet, as that’s roughly when I would feel that a boat that is still heading directly at me doesn’t see me. (Although some idiots think that heading directly at a kayak at is funny.) Since my maximum speed is 6mph, that addition 1.8 seconds means that I’ll be able to paddle an additional 16 feet – which could easily be enough to avoid being run over. With a 70mph powerboat, I really don’t have a chance. With a 45mph powerboat, I have a chance of getting out of the way. This is what makes speed a major issue for me.

The idea of restricting small boats along with a speed limit is getting some traction with lawmakers. At least I have only received positive responses to the email I sent to them all. My hope is to see an amendment or more study into the total problem so all are satisfied and safe.

If you actually try to restrict small boats from using a large portion of the lake, you’ll just end up with a much bigger fight than the one you have now. You might be surprised at how many of us there are. I really don’t think that you want all of us banding together against the larger boat owners.

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

If you rely on your blades for us to see you please be sure to go in circles so we can see you from every direction. Also, please never stop paddling as we won't see your blades at rest on the water surface. Bright paddles do make you more visible but probably should be only part of your visibility strategy.

Please read my entire post. I’m very visible. If I’m not seen, it is because you’re not paying attention. Add high speed to inattention and we have a very dangerous situation.