NH Electric Coop Broadband Petition

[longislander]

"You often cannot install a 4th technology ..."

Says who!

Please provide ... just one ... example, preferably an internet link of some credibility.

The cost of installation will be paid by the installer, if approved via agreement or the PUC if challenged.

The NHEC is not in the internet business. Most electric companies have decided not to jump into the fray ... wisely, in my humble opinion. They would/will use the existing wires, including the wiring in your house/busioness. Just plug into the AC connector on the wall!

https://broadbandnow.com/Powerline

Many years ago, I believe the last problem was getting around the transformer.

Maybe you should try bringing up mobile or fixed wireless or some other technology that has already been incorporated, in some areas, with no problem about "growing poles".

Why should NHEC spend COOP member money on something it will not use? Should they spend money on pavingf the roads the poles are on?


PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[Wifi-1]

Migaud, people need to take a break from their computers....

[longislander]

Migaud, people need to take a break from their computers....

Are we pointing out the threads of three pagers and more?
Are we talking about a break from the Covid-19 posts?
Are we talking about the political positioning posts/threads?

Or, are we trying to stifle opinions you don't like, like this thread?

Debate is healthy, in some schools of thought, especially if they include some facts, rather than just opinion.

Either way ... if you don't like reading threads that demonstrate differing opinions ... some with facts, not just opinion... move on! You've just ventured your opinion.

Maybe, start another petition in futility, as is what started this thread!

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by longislander

"You often cannot install a 4th technology ..."

Says who!

Please provide ... just one ... example, preferably an internet link of some credibility.

The cost of installation will be paid by the installer, if approved via agreement or the PUC if challenged.

The NHEC is not in the internet business. Most electric companies have decided not to jump into the fray ... wisely, in my humble opinion. They would/will use the existing wires, including the wiring in your house/busioness. Just plug into the AC connector on the wall!

https://broadbandnow.com/Powerline

Many years ago, I believe the last problem was getting around the transformer.

Maybe you should try bringing up mobile or fixed wireless or some other technology that has already been incorporated, in some areas, with no problem about "growing poles".

Why should NHEC spend COOP member money on something it will not use? Should they spend money on pavingf the roads the poles are on?


PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

I'm not sure why you are all spun up. The NHEC apparently does not want yet another contractor on their poles. It is a simple as that!

I designed and engineered a perimeter intrusion detection system that uses SM fiber as a detector (along with other technologies). We installed it at three nuclear plants last year and are installing at three more this year. Our fiber infrastructure runs within 30' of the 230KV and 500KV lines coming out of the turbine building. I understand power and fiber!

[longislander]

The NHEC apparently does not want yet another contractor on their poles. It is a simple as that!

Where did you find this? Is this part of the 2/3rds vote needed by NHEC members?

Our fiber infrastructure runs within 30' of the 230KV and 500KV lines coming out of the turbine building. I understand power and fiber!

What does that have to do with electric/phone company poles?

I designed and engineered a perimeter intrusion detection system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perime...tection_system

I'm impressed.

SM fiber v. Multimode fiber ... What financial analysis did you come with, for your application? Which do you think is more more apropos for FTTH?

Anyone can Google "words"

Did you put on poles ? Did you bury it? Or put on a fence?

I understand power and fiber!

You haven't demonstrated that!

Which nuclear plants? Maybe it would help to review what you did.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by longislander

Where did you find this? Is this part of the 2/3rds vote needed by NHEC members?

What does that have to do with electric/phone company poles?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perime...tection_system

I'm impressed.

SM fiber v. Multimode fiber ... What financial analysis did you come with, for your application? Which do you think is more more apropos for FTTH?

Anyone can Google "words"

Did you put on poles ? Did you bury it? Or put on a fence?

You haven't demonstrated that!

Which nuclear plants? Maybe it would help to review what you did.

I'm not going to answer basic fiber questions so you can test my knowledge. I am not going to discuss even vague details about the system here. I am certainly not going to list my clients to further validate myself.

I hope someone pulls fiber in town. I just don't want it costing the NHEC money, because it costs me money. I have 3 poles coming up my driveway, so I'm sure it would not be cheap getting in in.

This is an organization I belong to. Website is a little dated but good info. https://www.thefoa.org/tech/ref/basic/fiber.html

[longislander]

I am certainly not going to list my clients to further validate myself.

I'm not interested in your clients. I'm interested in where more nuclear power plants are being built.

I hope someone pulls fiber in town. I just don't want it costing the NHEC money, because it costs me money.

Here's something we agree on. I, also, do not want NHEC stringing fiber. Maybe you should re-read the petition that started this thread:

“Fiber broadband developers will tell you the most difficult part of providing Internet service in rural areas is not the cost of the fiber but rather the uncertainties in getting permission to attach to utility poles and associated costs. "

Bull----!

RSA 374-34-a
VI. Any pole owner shall provide nondiscriminatory access to its poles for the types of attachments regulated under this subdivision.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...4/374-34-a.htm

I have 3 poles coming up my driveway, so I'm sure it would not be cheap getting in in.

I built a new house here in Moultonborough two years ago, and have two NHEC poles running parallel to my driveway (@ 600ft. from the pole on the State road). The poles were a couple hundred bucks, if I remember correctly. The copper was $22/linear ft. The phone company cable and Spectrum cable ran their cables, on the poles, for nominal fees. They may have been free.

I'd rather see a petition on, why does a customer have to pay for infrastructure (poles and copper wire) owed by an other entity, and will be billed for service it provides. I'm referring to NHEC.

Yes, I did run a phone line on the poles along the driveway and underground from the pole to the house, with the other lines. I'm keeping an eye on Gfast (long term) (Ya I know DSL). I am using Voice-Over-IP for phone.

This is an organization I belong to. Website is a little dated but good info. https://www.thefoa.org/tech/ref/basic/fiber.html

Good for you. However, listing organizational URL's don't provide assurance in expertise, in the implied discipline. Google can do that as well.

https://www.thefoa.org/tech/ref/basic/fiber.html

https://fiberu.org/

https://www.otelco.com/resources/a-g...ptic-internet/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-mode_optical_fiber


Have a nice day!

[IslandRadio]

Originally Posted by longislander

"You often cannot install a 4th technology ..."

https://broadbandnow.com/Powerline

PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Broadband over Power Lines (aka BPL) is a *very* bad technology, and it fortunately has not been widely deployed.

The only way to provide reliable, very high speed Internet access to lots of users over a wide area is via fiber.

I owned an Internet Service Provider business in the mid-late 1990s. At that time, dialup was still king, DSL was just getting going (at least in my area), and the cable companies were not yet offering Internet access. I had about 3000 dialup customers, about 100 56k DDS customers, and about 25 T-1 customers (1.5 megabits). The problem has always been the "last mile".

Wireless works to some degree, but you need a lot of interconnected access points to make it viable for large numbers of users and still provide high bandwidth. And there is generally a fiber backbone involved.

Even Comcast, at least where I am located, uses physical cable from the street to the house (or a cluster of houses), but the backbone is still fiber and it works very well (albeit, it is expensive).

As compared to Comcast, I find Spectrum (which I have in Tuftonboro) to be quite reasonable. My only complaint is that, after a while, Spectrum will actively throttle network ports that are using a lot of bandwidth. I have a VPN between there and here, and I have to change the VPN port from time to time to get around the throttling. When the port usage stops or slows down, the throttling is lifted. I have not run into this with Comcast.

[longislander]

Communications cables have been attached to poles pretty much since their inception yes, but every new piece of third party communication line goes higher on the pole, never lower, telephone is at the bottom always because they are co owners of the pole and have to be the last to transfer so they can remove the old pole.

Maybe there's a communication breakdown. The electric lines are on top ... period. Go out and look at the poles outside your house, including through the insulators. It's easy to tell which is electric, look for attached to the transformer. New install here at the new house, is electric on top, and cable and phone below.

No lines were moved, but added at my house. I believe the same holds true for all of Moultonborough Neck Rd, a state road. The same held true when I worked for the phone company for 17 years.

What started as the electric company and the telephone/ telegraph company on the poles has changed to include cable tv, private fiber optics for business and towns and colleges, municipal fire alarm, all with a minimum requirement for spacing between each other.

Separate companies doing their separate businesses. Regulated by state and federal regulations. Exception is cable companies whereby "cable" is regulated
but internet is not ... at this time. FCC gives guidance.


http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...C-III-53-C.htm

Nobody does anything for free. The question is who pays for it.

[Hivolt]

Maybe a breakdown on your end. I'm well aware of what's on top of the pole, I work with it daily. Perhaps I was too verbose in my last post so I will simplify for you.

1) Of course no lines would be moved, you've just added a house and the phone and cable company came out, tapped their lines and ran it up your driveway.

2)Third party additions to the pole (third party being someone other than telephone cable and electric) will almost always require the electric company to move at a bare minimum their secondary wires to comply with minimum approach distance (google minimum approach distance, OSHA has a whole section on it). If moving our secondaries breaks our minimum approach requirements to the primary than a new pole or a pole top extension will need to be set/installed

3) You worked at the phone company, you were the lowest wires on the pole, you would have nothing to do with what I described unless you were too high to begin with.
'

4. Who pays for it is cut and dry, 100% is billed to the company requesting the work to be done. Period.

And last, what was your job at the phone company? It doesn't sound like you were a lineman there.

Originally Posted by longislander

Maybe there's a communication breakdown. The electric lines are on top ... period. Go out and look at the poles outside your house, including through the insulators. It's easy to tell which is electric, look for attached to the transformer. New install here at the new house, is electric on top, and cable and phone below.

No lines were moved, but added at my house. I believe the same holds true for all of Moultonborough Neck Rd, a state road. The same held true when I worked for the phone company for 17 years.



Separate companies doing their separate businesses. Regulated by state and federal regulations. Exception is cable companies whereby "cable" is regulated
but internet is not ... at this time. FCC gives guidance.


http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...C-III-53-C.htm

Nobody does anything for free. The question is who pays for it.

[longislander]

Perhaps I was too verbose in my last post so I will simplify for you.

At least make it intelligible.

third party being someone other than telephone cable and electric

Does that mean ... telephone or cable or electric; presumably cables (3)?

Or, is it telephone cable and electric? You said third party. I'm going to presume cable companies like Spectrum. Spectrum plus telephone plus electric make three types of cable; not all fiber.

There are three types of telephone cable at the poles on the street. The big bulky outside plant cable (e.g. 1800 pair, 2200 pair etc), telephone company fiber wire strapped to the outside plant, and then the "cable" that goes to the house from the street pole.

That makes four types of cable, from three businesses.

The three cables on the pole near my house have electric at top, Spectrum in the middle, and telephone (not outside plant) at the bottom on the two poles. The street poles always have the "outside plant" at the bottom and electric at the top, and Spectrum fiber and telephone fiber in the middle.

You said this:

Communications cables have been attached to poles pretty much since their inception yes, but every new piece of third party communication line goes higher on the pole, never lower, telephone is at the bottom always because they are co owners of the pole and have to be the last to transfer so they can remove the old pole.

I'm going to presume, now, you didn't mean higher than electric.

Co-ownership of the poles may not be accurate, although there are legal issues that do come into play.

minimum approach distance, OSHA

I've already stated the electric, phone, and the non-internet part of cable companies, are regulated. Following the regulations should be a no-brainer.

And last, what was your job at the phone company? It doesn't sound like you were a lineman there.

No, I was not a lineman. I did interface with linemen almost daily, however.

I was hired by the phone company at age fifty. I considered myself semi-retired. My background and work experience, was in what was considered high-tech years ago. 18 years at Wang Laboratories , a computer company; then went to a small phone company parts manufacturer and became plant manager; when Plantronics sold the company, went to and managed a small manufacturing company that produced scanners, in the Atlanta area. Subsequently pursued self-employment. After about five years of that, went to phone company.

In my youth before the previous work history, I was school trained by the U.S. Army in Avionics (1966). Used that training and more, in Vietnam, from May 1967 to Feb. 1969 on UH-1 helicopters, as well as door-gunner (189th Assault Helicopter Company). Came back stateside and thereafter went to work for for Wang; see above.

I used the G.I. bill and got three degrees in business, including MBA. I'm also a college level certified paralegal.

[Hivolt]

Originally Posted by longislander

At least make it intelligible.



Does that mean ... telephone or cable or electric; presumably cables (3)?

Or, is it telephone cable and electric? You said third party. I'm going to presume cable companies like Spectrum. Spectrum plus telephone plus electric make three types of cable; not all fiber.

There are three types of telephone cable at the poles on the street. The big bulky outside plant cable (e.g. 1800 pair, 2200 pair etc), telephone company fiber wire strapped to the outside plant, and then the "cable" that goes to the house from the street pole.

That makes four types of cable, from three businesses.

The three cables on the pole near my house have electric at top, Spectrum in the middle, and telephone (not outside plant) at the bottom on the two poles. The street poles always have the "outside plant" at the bottom and electric at the top, and Spectrum fiber and telephone fiber in the middle.

You said this:



I'm going to presume, now, you didn't mean higher than electric.

Co-ownership of the poles may not be accurate, although there are legal issues that do come into play.



I've already stated the electric, phone, and the non-internet part of cable companies, are regulated. Following the regulations should be a no-brainer.



No, I was not a lineman. I did interface with linemen almost daily, however.

I was hired by the phone company at age fifty. I considered myself semi-retired. My background and work experience, was in what was considered high-tech years ago. 18 years at Wang Laboratories , a computer company; then went to a small phone company parts manufacturer and became plant manager; when Plantronics sold the company, went to and managed a small manufacturing company that produced scanners, in the Atlanta area. Subsequently pursued self-employment. After about five years of that, went to phone company.

In my youth before the previous work history, I was school trained by the U.S. Army in Avionics (1966). Used that training and more, in Vietnam, from May 1967 to Feb. 1969 on UH-1 helicopters, as well as door-gunner (189th Assault Helicopter Company). Came back stateside and thereafter went to work for for Wang; see above.

I used the G.I. bill and got three degrees in business, including MBA. I'm also a college level certified paralegal.

So you were management at the phone company for a brief period in your career, ok this certainly answers many of my questions...

Well as a current industry professional I can say for certain the issue at hand is money here. I deal first hand with upgrades on our (the electric companies) end at least every 2 months, It's time consuming and expensive and we are generally only dealing with very small areas IE a few city blocks.

For anyone that did or does care about the politics at hand here I mostly covered them in my first two posts but I'd be happy to answer any questions outside of the noise of this thread.

[longislander]

I was at NYNEX, Bell Atlantic, Verizon, Fairpoint, for 17 Years.
I retired in 2013 and turn 73 this week. Still full of Pee and Vinegar.

Well as a current industry professional I can say for certain the issue at hand is money here. I deal first hand with upgrades on our (the electric companies) end at least every 2 months, It's time consuming and expensive and we are generally only dealing with very small areas IE a few city blocks.

That is not the issue.

This thread is about a petition

to provide“facilitating access to broadband Internet for members" to NHEC’s charter.

NHEC doesn’t need to finance, own or operate a fiber network to facilitate others to develop systems. It just needs to make attaching fiber to NHEC poles straightforward, predictable and affordable.

How many votes does it take to execute the petition ... 2/3rds of what!

What does the petition do ... change a few words in the charter. Does anyone think that will require the membership to fund putting fiber on poles?

This amendment would explicitly state, in the foundational documents of the organization, that NHEC sees facilitating the development of broadband as part of its core mission. Since it is member owned, NHEC has an opportunity and obligation to go beyond the base regulatory requirements imposed by the Public Utility Commission. The Coop should proactively encourage broadband developers to service its members.

The "100 coops" suggests to try to get

an expanded combination of federal grant and loan funding through USDA programs is essential.

For anyone that did or does care about the politics at hand here I mostly covered them in my first two posts but I'd be happy to answer any questions outside of the noise of this thread.

I, personally, don't care about the politics. Facts in this thread are almost non-existent. Mostly bloviating.

The question I have is, does anyone think this petition will provide actual expanded broadband to unserved and/or underserved areas.

Next question: how many lawsuits will be filed, if NHEC directors execute putting fiber on poles without a "plan".

Also

as a current industry professional

What company do you work for? NHEC, Eversource? You sound like more Eversource.

This petition is targeted to NHEC members.

[JEEPONLY]

Has anyone else received a call from the Co-op asking about paying to lock in rates?

My wife spoke to someone, evidently from NHEC, who proposed we consider making a sort of down payment, to lock in our usage rate, based on a future increase soon to be enacted.

Does this make any sense- or was it a scam???

[longislander]

https://www.nhec.com/metering-scams/

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by JEEPONLY

Has anyone else received a call from the Co-op asking about paying to lock in rates?

My wife spoke to someone, evidently from NHEC, who proposed we consider making a sort of down payment, to lock in our usage rate, based on a future increase soon to be enacted.

Does this make any sense- or was it a scam???

In the post quoted above (#29), I agreed with responders here that it was probably a scam.
On 4/16/20 we received a call that , at first sounded as if from NHEC. Clarification(?) revealed it was from either E&H Power, or ENH Power

Either way, the information was the same- lock in kwh rates, for 1-2 years with the opportunity to extend by contacting before original agreement expires (otherwise a $100.00 penalty would be assessed).

Still sounds like a scam, but I asked for a name, phone number and personal phone extension, which were provided.

I'm not interested in any of this, and have no intention of calling- even out of curiosity.

Any similar experiences/thoughts?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by JEEPONLY

In the post quoted above (#29), I agreed with responders here that it was probably a scam.
On 4/16/20 we received a call that , at first sounded as if from NHEC. Clarification(?) revealed it was from either E&H Power, or ENH Power

Either way, the information was the same- lock in kwh rates, for 1-2 years with the opportunity to extend by contacting before original agreement expires (otherwise a $100.00 penalty would be assessed).

Still sounds like a scam, but I asked for a name, phone number and personal phone extension, which were provided.

I'm not interested in any of this, and have no intention of calling- even out of curiosity.

Any similar experiences/thoughts?

We get calls like this at least monthly in Mass. Regulations from a couple of years ago allow electric customers to choose their electricity provider separately from their distributor. The distributors are the monopoly electric companies tied to our addresses. So a person in Boston can tell their distributor Eversource that they want their electricity from a certain generator, such as Greg's Green Generation or Carl's Coal or whatever. Eversource handles all the paperwork on both ends--billing you for a rate agreed upon with Greg or Carl, and then paying Greg or Carl for the juice they put into the grid based on your usage.

I cannot speak to the company who called you, but generally, these are not a scam, just irritating. On the upside--if you care about saving money and/or green energy, it's an easy way to have your distributor buy less expensive solar in your name.

[mishman]

Three candidates on the NH Electric Coop ballot are champions for getting our electric coop to help get competitive broadband in our area. Please vote for Darcy, Dwyer and Portu for the board on your recently arrived ballot. These three candidates understand the importance of broadband competition in this area and are trying to move NHEC into the future. Many thanks

[Senter Cove Guy]

By a vote of 4,599 (YES) to 2,539 (NO), the ballot question to change NHEC’s Certificate of Organization did not achieve the required two-thirds approval of members voting in the 2020 election.

While it did not receive the two-thirds approval, it came very close with a 64.4% YES vote.

This deserves another shot next year.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Senter Cove Guy

By a vote of 4,599 (YES) to 2,539 (NO), the ballot question to change NHEC’s Certificate of Organization did not achieve the required two-thirds approval of members voting in the 2020 election.

While it did not receive the two-thirds approval, it came very close with a 64.4% YES vote.

This deserves another shot next year.

Remarkable. Even as I reread your post a third time, I cant quite figure out why anyone would vote no. It would put downward pressure on internet prices, upward pressure on service quality and connection speed, and almost certainly be profitable for the coop as they piggy back it on the wires they already maintain.

[Lakegeezer]

Has anyone tried Hub 66? They are advertising heavily and apparently are installing fiber in M'boro, Sandwich and Tuftonboro. This is a good example of where having NHEC fiber friendly would help a company like Hub 66 grow more quickly. The company also is offering high-speed wireless (400 Mbps+) outside the fiber plant. Good to see some competition in town, but is it real?

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by longislander

Still full of Pee and Vinegar.

Mostly bloviating.

What company do you work for? NHEC, Eversource? You sound like more Eversource.

This petition is targeted to NHEC members.

You are full of something but not those ingredients.

Bloviating? LOL hello mirror?

Hivolt answered your question rationally- who cares which utility he works for? Do you think they have different rules for line separation and the size of the communication worker's safety zone/ area. Perhaps Hivolt works for Eversource and lives in Moultonborough?

[longislander]

Be useful ... take a nap!

[ApS]

I'm all set for Wi-Fi, but would this help anyone in the short-term?


https://www.internetessentials.com/

[longislander]

Broadband over Power Lines (aka BPL) is a *very* bad technology, and it fortunately has not been widely deployed.

You'll note on the link I provided that the distribution is ZERO!

The only way to provide reliable, very high speed Internet access to lots of users over a wide area is via fiber.

In agreement, at this time.
However,

Starlink.
“Elon Musk said that the company had filed documents with international regulators to place about 4,000 satellites in low Earth orbit.

https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-satellites.html

Jeff Bezos‘ Project Kuiper is ramping up plans to shoot more than 3,500 satellites into (low) orbit, but is yet to launch any.

https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2020...-musk-back-on/

Microsoft Airband: An update on connecting rural America
https://news.microsoft.com/rural-broadband/

Market place will also have a say. Users of wireless phones do not have fiber extruding from their ears ... not yet anyway.

The problem has always been the "last mile".

Agree.

"Last-mile technology is any telecommunications technology that carries signals from the broad telecommunication backbone along the relatively short distance (hence, the "last mile") to and from the home or business."

https://searchnetworking.techtarget....ile-technology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_mile

My only complaint is that, after a while, Spectrum will actively throttle network ports that are using a lot of bandwidth.

Probably.

I have a VPN between there and here, and I have to change the VPN port from time to time to get around the throttling. When the port usage stops or slows down, the throttling is lifted. I have not run into this with Comcast.

Not only Spectrum but all ISP's, depending on what they can get away with, and their business plan. Look to the FCC for possible help. Netflix anyone!

I understand you're probably on "broadband" . One of my neighbors, who worked from home for Ratheon had trouble with his VPN. It had to do with his distance from DSLAM or “local office”, as he was on DSL.

You bring up good points!