Electric Heat - Pros & Cons

[bigdog]

Looking for some feedback from Forum about 'Electric Heat'.

I am considering purchasing one of several condos on Lake, and they all have electric heat. However, all have firepalces, and some have monitor heaters.

I have had electric heat in past, and familiar, but was is the current
cost per BTU as compared to oil, natural gas, LP gas.
I have heard that electric heat is actually now cheaper than oil or gas ?

Also, what are people's comments about 'monitor heaters' ? Are they a good cost-effective backup or alternative for heating ?

Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated !

[AC2717]

I know first hand thatn PSNH is very expensive today, but who isn't your are damned no matter what heat source you use, unless you have a great supply of firewood, cords are not that cheap anymore either.

Note though, not matter what the heat source is, it is worth it to be at the lake

[Pepper]

Are you planning on the condo being a year-round residence, or a second home? If it's to be year-round, I would lean toward one with a monitor heater, and use it as primary heat, rather than secondary. Monitors are much more efficient than electricity, and create the heat much faster. Keep in mind the source of electric heat is likely as old as the unit itself - but the monitor is most likely a more recent addition. The age of the source will be indicative of it's efficiency.

Best wishes!

[Kamper]

Just off the top of my head...

With oil going up, electric might be getting more competitive because much of it is derived from non-oil generators. Depending on which hippy you are listenning too there are new alternatives that may be developped for supplies of electricity. Not that it will be cheap because there will be more industrial reliance on this energy and those new sources face political, environmental and aesthetic opposition.

Good luck!

[SIKSUKR]

Not to argue with my friend Pepper but I don't think electric resistance heats efficiency has changed much.There is not much that can be done to change resistance with the current materials.If my math is right,based on the chart I have from PSNH, $3.80 a gallon for oil would be $27.4 per million BTU vs $41.38 per million BTU for electricity at $.14 per kilowatt hour.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by bigdog

Looking for some feedback from Forum about 'Electric Heat'.

I have had electric heat in past, and familiar, but was is the current cost per BTU as compared to oil, natural gas, LP gas.
I have heard that electric heat is actually now cheaper than oil or gas ?

Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated !

You may do the BTU math; here's the website for energy prices:

http://www.state.nh.us/oep/programs/...fuelprices.htm

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Not to argue with my friend Pepper but I don't think electric resistance heats efficiency has changed much.There is not much that can be done to change resistance with the current materials.

Agreed

In terms of actual efficiency, there are no consumer heating methods that are more *efficient* than electric for heating (where efficient means that the overall power consumed is converted to usable interior heat). However, almost every other form of heating is cheaper than electric when you factor in the dollar costs to create BTU's inside the residence.

I'd never recommend electric as a primary heating means unless the need for heat was VERY rare. Electric is often cheaper and easier to install, so there is a period of time where the ROI between electric and gas for example favors the electric heat option. But this scale tips after a few dozen hours of usage typically.

[Water Camper]

I have an older place on the lake that only had a fireplace. I had electric heat installed because the installation was the least expensive. I then had a wood stove insert installed in the fireplace. I set the electric heat on low while we're not there, but light the stove immediately upon arrival.

This was the first year we attempted to use the place during the winter (oh my aching back from snowblwing). Electric averaged around $45-$50 a month. The wood was free, I just had to collect it.

I am very pleased with the combination.
Bill

[VitaBene]

When considering your condo choice look at inside units, especially ones that have neighbors below which will greatly reduce your heat usage. Electric heat is fast but pricey!

[ITD]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Agreed

In terms of actual efficiency, there are no consumer heating methods that are more *efficient* than electric for heating (where efficient means that the overall power consumed is converted to usable interior heat). However, almost every other form of heating is cheaper than electric when you factor in the dollar costs to create BTU's inside the residence.

I'd never recommend electric as a primary heating means unless the need for heat was VERY rare. Electric is often cheaper and easier to install, so there is a period of time where the ROI between electric and gas for example favors the electric heat option. But this scale tips after a few dozen hours of usage typically.

Actually an electric heat pump is much more efficient than electric resistance heating, although that efficiency drops off at lower temperatures. You also have to be careful when comparing electric efficiency to other fuels. It is true that an electric baseboard heater will yield all the heat it produces to the premise heated yeilding close to 100 % efficency. But, if you consider a gallon of oil burned miles away to produce electricity, you have to consider the efficency of the generator, power source, transmission losses, plant costs, distribution costs, I think you would find electric baseboard very inefficient.

[bigdog]

Thanks folks for all the great inforrmation, much apreciated !

All things considered I think I'll steer away from condos heated by electricty.
I also remember a previous home heated with electricty, and we always seemed to be cold, as the heat only seemed to be warm near the actual
heat registers. Lot's of complaints from the family....

Even though oil is currently high I think it's still one of the best sources for home heating. The heat distribution throughout the house seems to be better circulated. Also, as soon as the 'Commodity Brokers' stop driving up the price of oil, I think you'l see it drop dramtically !
We may not see $2.00 a gal oil again, but I think it may go back to under $3.00. Just my opinion....

I can't compare to gas heat in cost however, but I still like the ability to purchase from a competitive market. With natural gas or LP, you don't have that luxury, and may only have a few sources to purchase.

That being said, I'll go with the open competitive market.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback !

Bigdog

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by GWC...

You may do the BTU math; here's the website for energy prices:

http://www.state.nh.us/oep/programs/...fuelprices.htm

Here's some formulas to compliment the various prices.

Convert each energy type to BTUs

Total amount of:

electricity used ____________ KWH X 3413 = __________________BTU

natural gas used ____________Therms X 100,000 = ______________ BTU

fuel oil used ___________ Gallons X 148,000 = ______________ BTU

http://www.bpa.gov/Corporate/KR/ed/e...ter2/chap2.htm

[DickR]

Originally Posted by bigdog

........

All things considered I think I'll steer away from condos heated by electricty.
I also remember a previous home heated with electricty, and we always seemed to be cold, as the heat only seemed to be warm near the actual
heat registers. Lot's of complaints from the family....

Bigdog

The usual reason for there being cold spots in any home or apartment is poor construction, with lack of attention to air sealing and insulation, not the type of heating system. With typical construction techniques, there is a great deal of thermal bridging (direct conduction of heat through wood framing to the outside). Add to that the fact that typically fiberglass batt insulation still is in widespread use, and installation of it typically is rather sloppy, and you've got a leaky house that is uncomfortable and costs a bundle to heat.

[CanisLupusArctos]

How hard would it be, or how much would it cost to hook up electric heat to some solar panels? Or at least enough solar panels so that the cost of running the electric heat was less than heating with oil.

[DickR]

Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

How hard would it be, or how much would it cost to hook up electric heat to some solar panels? Or at least enough solar panels so that the cost of running the electric heat was less than heating with oil.

According to Wikipedia ( I don't have this stuff on the top of my head), solar input energy at the equator on a sunny day is about 1000 watt/square meter. Typical photovoltaic efficiency is said to be 12% currently (getting better with time). Average recovery of juice from a panel in southern US, given typical weather/cloud cover, length of day, totals about 1 kwh/m2/day.

For a house presumably of typical construction (meaning thermally quite leaky) in the northeast in the dead of winter, let's suppose the (electric) heating bill is $600/mo. At 12 cents/kwh, that comes to 5000 kwh/month, or 167 kwh/24 hour day, 6.94 kw average rate, which equates to an average loss of almost 24,000 BTU/hr. That's average, and not for large house, either. Peak loss could be double easily.

To provide that energy with PV panels, assuming some battery to store juice for night use and inverter to boost the voltage, that 167 kwh would call for 167 square meters of panels, or about 1800 square feet. It wouldn't really fit on the roof, being, say, 36x50. Actually, being in the northeast, it would have to be considerably larger, given the lower solar intensity. I hope I haven't screwed up the calcs, but I think you get the idea of the surface needed.

A more workable solution would be to use the surface for solar hot water heating. More energy can be recovered per square meter of area as heat than as electric power. The heat can be stored in a large insulated tank in the basement and circulated through the house as required, through the night. This "battery" wouldn't have to be replaced every few years, either.

Before folks think about "green" ways to provide energy for domestic use, they ought to think more about the very "ungreen" energy demand of the house itself. Almost any house built with typical construction techniques can be improved thermally to reduce its energy demand. Anyone contemplating building new really ought to spend some time on the Internet exploring how to do it right, and not depend on some "builder" to know what to do. Most don't have a clue when it comes to building energy-efficient houses, although a few have become good at it and more will over time. But then, most homeowners haven't a clue either, being more willing to spend money on granite countertops, home theater rooms, and outside hot tubs than on the building shell that keeps them warm in winter.

[Ah, I'm soap-boxing again. Gotta cut this out]

[Pepper]

Originally Posted by DickR

...[Ah, I'm soap-boxing again. Gotta cut this out]

Actually, I thought that was very informative, and not the least bit soap-boxish. Personally, I'd love to learn more on the subject, and will most definately do some internet searching!

Thanks for the suggestion.

[CanisLupusArctos]

I found it really informative, also. Nowadays, "going green" means saving green treasury notes as much as it means saving green leaves. Everyone agrees we've seen the last of cheap oil, so people are starting to solve the problem of "What to do now?" for themselves.

I have recently seen that the Squam Lake Natural Science Center uses a pretty good size solar array to power their facility, and the AMC's Lakes of the Clouds Hut uses solar panels + batteries to power their kitchen (which includes a professional-grade refrigerator.) So I was beginning to get curious.

For anyone interested, I did discover a cheap, practical form of solar heat this winter when I removed the screens from the windows for some reason and then realized the sun coming through them felt warmer than the sun coming through the screened windows. So I removed the other screens, too, and the indoor thermometer responded. A few weeks later I was telling a friend about it and he said, "Oh you didn't know? That's what you're supposed to do to get more heat."

[SIKSUKR]

To follow up on DickR's post,if your building new,take a look at geothermal.My partner is having it installed in his new house.He is using the same well as his domestic water supply and will use the water to extract btu's to heat the house.With the current incentive programs out there,he calculated that the extra cost of this system will be paid back in a little over three years.

[dpg]

Originally Posted by Water Camper

I have an older place on the lake that only had a fireplace. I had electric heat installed because the installation was the least expensive. I then had a wood stove insert installed in the fireplace. I set the electric heat on low while we're not there, but light the stove immediately upon arrival.

This was the first year we attempted to use the place during the winter (oh my aching back from snowblwing). Electric averaged around $45-$50 a month. The wood was free, I just had to collect it.

I am very pleased with the combination.
Bill

My aunt and uncle in Mass (live beside me) heat an average size ranch, one floor with electric heat. They average anywhere from $600-$800/monthly once the winter really kicks in. They maintain this cost for probably 3-4 months before it starts dropping off in the spring. They keep the house comfortable....Not hot.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by bigdog

Thanks folks for all the great inforrmation, much apreciated !

All things considered I think I'll steer away from condos heated by electricty.
I also remember a previous home heated with electricty, and we always seemed to be cold, as the heat only seemed to be warm near the actual
heat registers. Lot's of complaints from the family....

Even though oil is currently high I think it's still one of the best sources for home heating. The heat distribution throughout the house seems to be better circulated. Also, as soon as the 'Commodity Brokers' stop driving up the price of oil, I think you'l see it drop dramtically !
We may not see $2.00 a gal oil again, but I think it may go back to under $3.00. Just my opinion....

I can't compare to gas heat in cost however, but I still like the ability to purchase from a competitive market. With natural gas or LP, you don't have that luxury, and may only have a few sources to purchase.

That being said, I'll go with the open competitive market.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback !

Bigdog

A lot of fancy numbers here, but I heat an 1100 sq ft condo by the lake with electric heat. My highest bill is $75 dollars a month in Jan & Feb. My condo is well constructed, but still......I don't know where people are getting these crazy numbers. EVERYONE in my association pays these prices.