Illegal Dock??

05-02-2007, 10:11 PM

Hi:

I would like opinions regarding the dock next to my property. Here is some information:
1. The property is privately owned. It has 100 feet of frontage.
2. Although privately owned, it is part of a 35 house association.
3. This dock is about 80 feet in length and has 3 fingers coming out at 90 degrees.
4. Currently there are about 18 boats (under 24') there. Some call it a marina!
5. The property is undeveloped and the elderly owner has allowed the members use it for dockage.
6. We are in a secluded cove, away from most of the public eye.
I do not what (if anything) I can do about this... Thanks. Dusty.

Island Lover · 05-02-2007, 10:31 PM

Hi Dusty

What is at about the dock that you object to? Does it block your view, navigation hazard, unfriendly users?

Was it there when you bought your place?

NightWing · 05-02-2007, 11:27 PM

You might want to read this..................

http://www.des.state.nh.us/factsheet...ands/wb-12.htm

fpartri497 · 05-03-2007, 06:28 AM

Yeah dusty: a little more Info Is needed here. Are you the newcomer or has the docks been there for a long time before you? What Is your real objection to their docks?

Onshore · 05-03-2007, 06:33 AM

What makes you think its illegal?

Gatto Nero · 05-03-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shore things

What makes you think its illegal?

120 feet in length, 3 fingers, and holds 18 boats on 100' of shoreline. Isn't that illegal by definition?

Woodsy · 05-03-2007, 11:26 AM

The dock might be illegal by current definition.... but without knowing the whole history of the dock its best not to speculate.

Woodsy

Onshore · 05-03-2007, 11:31 AM

It is definately "non-conforming" but that is something all together different than being illegal.

MAXUM · 05-03-2007, 11:57 AM

Just based on the facts provided, if the property is part of an association are you sure the owner is allowing dockage out of the goodness of thier hearts? That seems a bit strange to me. I would tend to purely speculate that there is some sort of deeded rights or ROW to that frontage for the owners that are part of the association and are on the "back lots". If not all those folks could end up with a surprise if that property changes hands and the new owner puts the hammer down. Speaking from a pure liability standpoint if I owned that property I would not be comfortable with that kind of arrangement.

Bet there is more to this than meets the eye. As some have suggested though, and based on when you think this dock was put in, chances are at the time it was legit, therefore grandfathered.

FYI - this is just my opinion, I'm by no means an expert on the subject.

Gatto Nero · 05-03-2007, 03:58 PM

So, if Dusty were to take this a step further and file a complaint with the DES on the assumption that is was illegal, would it be his burden to prove it wasn't there as part of the complaint or would the owner of the property have to prove that it was as part of their defense?

wildwoodfam · 05-03-2007, 09:47 PM

Non-conforming dock - but not much can be done - since it has been there for over 30 years! Would be burden of proof on Dusty's part - owners would have to defend against the argument - but would be a VERY STEEP uphill battle....just my opinion, but its based on familiar situations over the past couple years.

Biggest question would be - How long has Dusty lived there - and why the complaint? If Dusty is the newcomer - it wont get very far with any reasonable attorney.

05-03-2007, 10:09 PM

Wow!! Great variety of responses. Thanks Nightwing for the info. I have only been there 3 years this August. I knew the dock was there and I accepted its presence. They also added a smaller 2nd dock 20 feet alongside the present dock. A "canoe dock" so they say. 2 powerboats have been tied there during those 2 years. No permit was pulled. There are no dock R.O.W. or deeded rights listed on the property deed. The association has 35 houses and 18 deeded boatslips on docks owned on adjacent property. This unimproved lot of land I refer to is privately owned by one of the original developers. The boats there are for the people who do not have deeded docks, or people that the owner "allows" to use it. I agree it has liability written all over it. There has been talk of the owner selling the property.
This whole situation does not have me overly concerned. I understand we are all here to enjoy the lake. I was just wondering what, if any, laws were being violated. Dusty.

LIforrelaxin · 05-04-2007, 08:15 AM

I think I understand where Dusty is comming from. He is seeing an abuse and doesn't want it to get worse. Put all the legalities aside and I have this to add... You are part of a Development / Assosciation and if you decided to do something that might pit the rest of the development against you be ready for retaliation. Make sure everything on your Property is in order and legal, because they will most likely come back on you.

Mr. V · 05-04-2007, 10:13 AM

Dusty, for a definitive answer, consult with a competent land use attorney. The posters here, albeit mostly well-intentioned, are incapable of fully answering your query.

Weirs guy · 05-04-2007, 11:03 AM

Just out of curiosity, what happens if a grandfathered dock like this gets cleaned out one spring by an ice berg?

dpg · 05-04-2007, 11:18 AM

Dusty: You'll P-off a whole association by starting something in my opinion. I also am unclear as to why the question is even raised.

If it really doesn't bother you better left alone.............just my .02........

Onshore · 05-04-2007, 11:52 AM

A legally existing structure can be repaired in kind with a permit or permit by notification from DES but if someone's been adding fingers and whatnot to the dock or frontage, and a background check on the applictation picks up on it, the owners will need to restore to the last permitted conditions.

Gavia immer · 05-04-2007, 04:44 PM

If the property got sold yesterday, would the new owner be charged with having to "restore" the area? If this is on a small lake, would it be treated any different? It's not apparent that the dock is on Lake Winnipesaukee.

dpg...Dusty could be "in the money" if he could sell his abutting lot or two to the association.

05-02-2007, 10:11 PM	#1
DUSTY Guest Posts: n/a	Illegal Dock?? Hi: I would like opinions regarding the dock next to my property. Here is some information: 1. The property is privately owned. It has 100 feet of frontage. 2. Although privately owned, it is part of a 35 house association. 3. This dock is about 80 feet in length and has 3 fingers coming out at 90 degrees. 4. Currently there are about 18 boats (under 24') there. Some call it a marina! 5. The property is undeveloped and the elderly owner has allowed the members use it for dockage. 6. We are in a secluded cove, away from most of the public eye. I do not what (if anything) I can do about this... Thanks. Dusty. Last edited by DUSTY; 05-06-2007 at 09:16 PM.

05-03-2007, 06:28 AM	#4
fpartri497 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Concord NH Posts: 681 Thanks: 97 Thanked 48 Times in 39 Posts	Illegal dock Yeah dusty: a little more Info Is needed here. Are you the newcomer or has the docks been there for a long time before you? What Is your real objection to their docks? __________________ dont worry be happy

05-03-2007, 11:26 AM	#7
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,965 Thanks: 80 Thanked 979 Times in 440 Posts	The dock might be illegal by current definition.... but without knowing the whole history of the dock its best not to speculate. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

05-03-2007, 03:58 PM	#10
Gatto Nero Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Isola Gatto Nero Posts: 697 Thanks: 162 Thanked 263 Times in 81 Posts	So, if Dusty were to take this a step further and file a complaint with the DES on the assumption that is was illegal, would it be his burden to prove it wasn't there as part of the complaint or would the owner of the property have to prove that it was as part of their defense? __________________ La vita è buona su Isola Gatto Nero

05-03-2007, 09:47 PM	#11
wildwoodfam Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: North Andover, MA & summers up at the BIG lake Posts: 285 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Been there since 1974 - sounds like its probably grandfathered. Non-conforming dock - but not much can be done - since it has been there for over 30 years! Would be burden of proof on Dusty's part - owners would have to defend against the argument - but would be a VERY STEEP uphill battle....just my opinion, but its based on familiar situations over the past couple years. Biggest question would be - How long has Dusty lived there - and why the complaint? If Dusty is the newcomer - it wont get very far with any reasonable attorney.

05-02-2007, 10:31 PM	#2
Island Lover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Hi Dusty What is at about the dock that you object to? Does it block your view, navigation hazard, unfriendly users? Was it there when you bought your place?

05-02-2007, 11:27 PM	#3
NightWing Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 410 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	You might want to read this.................. http://www.des.state.nh.us/factsheet...ands/wb-12.htm

05-03-2007, 06:33 AM	#5
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	What makes you think its illegal?

05-03-2007, 11:31 AM	#8
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	It is definately "non-conforming" but that is something all together different than being illegal.

05-03-2007, 11:57 AM	#9
MAXUM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kuna ID Posts: 2,755 Thanks: 246 Thanked 1,942 Times in 802 Posts	Just based on the facts provided, if the property is part of an association are you sure the owner is allowing dockage out of the goodness of thier hearts? That seems a bit strange to me. I would tend to purely speculate that there is some sort of deeded rights or ROW to that frontage for the owners that are part of the association and are on the "back lots". If not all those folks could end up with a surprise if that property changes hands and the new owner puts the hammer down. Speaking from a pure liability standpoint if I owned that property I would not be comfortable with that kind of arrangement. Bet there is more to this than meets the eye. As some have suggested though, and based on when you think this dock was put in, chances are at the time it was legit, therefore grandfathered. FYI - this is just my opinion, I'm by no means an expert on the subject.

05-03-2007, 10:09 PM	#12
DUSTY Guest Posts: n/a	Wow!! Great variety of responses. Thanks Nightwing for the info. I have only been there 3 years this August. I knew the dock was there and I accepted its presence. They also added a smaller 2nd dock 20 feet alongside the present dock. A "canoe dock" so they say. 2 powerboats have been tied there during those 2 years. No permit was pulled. There are no dock R.O.W. or deeded rights listed on the property deed. The association has 35 houses and 18 deeded boatslips on docks owned on adjacent property. This unimproved lot of land I refer to is privately owned by one of the original developers. The boats there are for the people who do not have deeded docks, or people that the owner "allows" to use it. I agree it has liability written all over it. There has been talk of the owner selling the property. This whole situation does not have me overly concerned. I understand we are all here to enjoy the lake. I was just wondering what, if any, laws were being violated. Dusty.

05-04-2007, 08:15 AM	#13
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas, Lake Ray Hubbard and NH, Long Island Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,870 Thanks: 1,037 Thanked 892 Times in 524 Posts	Just a note here I think I understand where Dusty is comming from. He is seeing an abuse and doesn't want it to get worse. Put all the legalities aside and I have this to add... You are part of a Development / Assosciation and if you decided to do something that might pit the rest of the development against you be ready for retaliation. Make sure everything on your Property is in order and legal, because they will most likely come back on you. __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....

05-04-2007, 10:13 AM	#14
Mr. V Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: the left coast (Portland)and West Alton Posts: 1,388 Thanks: 63 Thanked 253 Times in 172 Posts	Dusty, for a definitive answer, consult with a competent land use attorney. The posters here, albeit mostly well-intentioned, are incapable of fully answering your query.

05-04-2007, 11:03 AM	#15
Weirs guy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Weirs Beach, NH Posts: 1,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Just out of curiosity, what happens if a grandfathered dock like this gets cleaned out one spring by an ice berg? __________________ Is it bikeweek yet? Now?

05-04-2007, 11:18 AM	#16
dpg Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 2,591 Thanks: 150 Thanked 229 Times in 166 Posts	Dusty: You'll P-off a whole association by starting something in my opinion. I also am unclear as to why the question is even raised. If it really doesn't bother you better left alone.............just my .02........

05-04-2007, 11:52 AM	#17
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	A legally existing structure can be repaired in kind with a permit or permit by notification from DES but if someone's been adding fingers and whatnot to the dock or frontage, and a background check on the applictation picks up on it, the owners will need to restore to the last permitted conditions.

05-04-2007, 04:44 PM	#18
Gavia immer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 193 Thanks: 21 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	If the property got sold yesterday, would the new owner be charged with having to "restore" the area? If this is on a small lake, would it be treated any different? It's not apparent that the dock is on Lake Winnipesaukee. dpg...Dusty could be "in the money" if he could sell his abutting lot or two to the association.