Quick Safety Certificate Question

Silver Duck · 03-19-2006, 11:55 AM

I have a question for our resident "legal experts". Is it legitimate for me to allow an experienced boater who doesn't have a NH certificate to take the helm, so long as I'm right there with him?

Silver Duck

Skip · 03-19-2006, 12:13 PM

The quick answer is no (exception: still some exempt due to age, all after 1/1/08).....all operators of motorized vessels with horsepowers in excess of 25 (caveat: public waters) shall first obtain the safe boating certificate according to the applicable age schedule. The key words of the RSA are no person & shall operate, highlighted below:

Safe Boater Education
Section 270-D:10
270-D:10 Certificate Required. –
I. No person born on or after the dates provided in this section shall operate a motorized vessel with any type of power motor in excess of 25 horsepower on the public waters of this state without first obtaining a certificate of boating safety education in accordance with this subdivision:
Date of Birth Certificate Required
January 1, 1983 January 1, 2002
January 1, 1977 January 1, 2003
January 1, 1973 January 1, 2004
January 1, 1967 January 1, 2005
January 1, 1963 January 1, 2006
January 1, 1957 January 1, 2007
All January 1, 2008

Bear Islander · 03-19-2006, 01:36 PM

Skip

Does this mean you can take the helm without a certificate if you are under 16, but not if you are 16 or over. The section below seems clear but doesn't it conflict with 270-D:10

Perhaps "operate" means to be responsible for the boats operation but not necessarily holding the wheel. In a plane the "pilot in command" is responsible but does not need to be at the controls.

270:30 Minimum Age for Operation. – No person under 16 years of age shall operate a motorized vessel having power in excess of 25 horsepower on the public waters of this state unless the person is accompanied by a person 18 years of age or older who has a valid safe boater education certificate, and such person shall be liable for personal injury or property damage which may result from such operation. Whoever violates this section shall be guilty of a violation.

Skip · 03-19-2006, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

...Skip...Does this mean you can take the helm without a certificate if you are under 16, but not if you are 16 or over. The section below seems clear but doesn't it conflict with 270-D:10...

Yep, weird....isn't it?

Operate in New Hampshire is defined as "to be in direct physical control". In a pleasure craft as we are talking about here the person at the helm (actually steering) has to have the certificate, unless under 16 and under the direct supervision of a certificated adult.

By the way, as a side note, an intoxicated adult with a certificate cannot be directly supervising the child as the intoxication prevents the ability to "directly supervise".

Currently, unlike the motor vehicle code, there is no excpertion to allow a certificated adult the ability to offer "driver training" to a non-certificated adult. You're at the whim & will of the law enforcement officer that may stumble upon you whether you get a warning or a summons.

Just another weird way we regulate the citizenry!

Skip

p.s. You know, many of us that post here are long time educated boaters here in New Hampshire. Yet even with experience, boater safety certificates and tons of common sense between us, look how many questions about regulations we still ask each other!

Why?

Because (as pointed out many times by Misty Blue, amongst others) our current marine regulations are sometimes confusing, many times happenstance and not understood very well by too many. Maybe its time we have a sunset review of our present marine statutes so we can clean up and simplify them! Just a thought....

jrc · 03-19-2006, 04:02 PM

In an auto you need to demonstrate the ability to operate an auto to get a license. There is no real way you're going to learn this from a book or class. So the law allows someone to teach you in a real car on a real street.

But in a boat you're only learning safety rules and you only need to pass a test to prove you've learned the rules. The boater education is not concerned with physically operating a boat. There isn't even a section on operating a throttle, or raising a sail. Given the gamut of boats out there, a class covering all recreational boats would be extensive. After you've learned the rules, you can learn to operate a boat, but that's beyond the scope of the boater education certificate.

Skip · 03-19-2006, 04:26 PM

JRC is right, comparing the motor vehicle code to the boating code can be comparing apples/oranges at times.

However, the important point is that to operate a car you must show driver proficiency, not just memorization of key portions of the applicable motor vehicle laws.

With the boating safety certificate there is no provision for operational proficiency, thereby possesion of a safety certificate by no means guarantees your ability to operate the vessel you may be in command of.

Which then brings us to the temporary certificates and problems with rental pwcs & boats!

I think the intent of the legislative sponsors in forbidding adults to operate without a certificate after a certain period was to ensure that all adults get some type of boater education. They allowed the "under 16" loophole because at some point you would become "16" and then have to have the certificate. If they allowed an uncertified adult to operate with a certificate holder on board, you could get a significant portion of the adult population (spouses, for example) that would never bother to obtain the certificate, they would just operate under occasion by utilizing the other's certificate.

In years past when waterways were much less congested and boats of much lesser capacities in size, horsepower & high speeds these questions were of little or no concern. Given today's realities, changes and greater demands will always be on the horizon for the general boating community.

Unfortunately these changes will in most cases be reactionary vice proactive...

Skip

Airwaves · 03-19-2006, 04:29 PM

When I was involved in teaching safe boating classes the issue of "practical" instruction was raised by our group on at least one occasion.

The reason we never did it....all together now... litigation!

Not the mention the logistical nightmare of trying to get 30 or so people in one of our average classes, enough time at the helm the limited number of vessels we had access to, to do any good.

Silver Duck · 03-19-2006, 07:52 PM

Thanks, Skip. I was thinking of the same clause as Bear Islander, and wanted to be certain.

It does seem a bit non-sensical that I could legally allow a six year old to take the wheel under my supervision, but not a responsible adult! Guess it was set up that way to maximize participation!

Silver Duck

Merrymeeting · 03-19-2006, 09:10 PM

Also consider that the under 16 rule has distinct benefits. I let my children drive the boat all the time. But only when traffic is not an issue, and only when I am sitting right beside them and able to take control at any moment.

The benefit is that one of them turns 16 in another month. He has been driving the boat beside me long enough to now have many hours of experience behind the wheel, and many more hours of me teaching him the rules of the water while he's been driving. I am now much more confident that he will be a responsible, safe driver when he gets his license this Spring.

islandAl · 03-19-2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

It does seem a bit non-sensical that I could legally allow a six year old to take the wheel under my supervision, but not a responsible adult! Guess it was set up that way to maximize participation!

Silver Duck

With your six year old, you WILL be paying attention to what they are doing; while with the "responsible" adult, you may not. The adult may not know all the rules

and quickly get into improper situation.

Bear Islander · 03-19-2006, 11:45 PM

That six year old can legally operate a 25 horsepower boat all by himself. But it will be 10 years before he is allowed to attend a safe boating course, let alone obtain a certificate.

So a 45 year old must have a certificate to operate a 30 HP boat. But a five year old operating a 25 HP boat is not allowed to have a certificate.

Rayhunt · 03-20-2006, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

That six year old can legally operate a 25 horsepower boat all by himself. But it will be 10 years before he is allowed to attend a safe boating course, let alone obtain a certificate.

So a 45 year old must have a certificate to operate a 30 HP boat. But a five year old operating a 25 HP boat is not allowed to have a certificate.

Why does everything seem to get a spin put on it ?
The 5 year old must have a certified adult with them !

Bear Islander · 03-20-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayhunt

Why does everything seem to get a spin put on it ?
The 5 year old must have a certified adult with them !

Sorry, but thats not true. I know it seems incredible but the is no age limit for operating a boat with a 25 HP or less motor.

I suppose at some point an adult that let a small child take out a motorboat could be charged with child endangerment. But a child of any age can legally operate such a boat alone.

Skip · 03-20-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

...a child of any age can legally operate such a boat alone... (under 25 horsepower) ...

That is correct..... (emphasis mine)

Rayhunt · 03-20-2006, 01:49 PM

Sorry BI Its 16 to operate ski craft or pwc's , you are correct, I thought it had changed to 12 to operate a motor..
Although I was pretty adept with my 10 foot rowboat with a 3 hp Johnson on it when I was 6-7 years old.. Another wonderful freedom we still enjoy in NH never too young to learn boating skills

Silver Duck · 03-20-2006, 07:08 PM

Actually, I don't have a 6 year old, that was just a figure of speech; what I do have is a three year old grand daughter, and I'm not crazy enough to let her take the wheel (yet)!

I was thinking more of boating friends & family members who will be itching to try out the new boat, but have no other reason to bother with geting a NH certficate. Guess that they'll just have to settle for being passengers!

Silver Duck

03-19-2006, 11:55 AM	#1
Silver Duck Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica, MA Posts: 364 Thanks: 40 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Quick Safety Certificate Question I have a question for our resident "legal experts". Is it legitimate for me to allow an experienced boater who doesn't have a NH certificate to take the helm, so long as I'm right there with him? Silver Duck

03-19-2006, 12:13 PM	#2
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	Must have certificate to operate.... The quick answer is no (exception: still some exempt due to age, all after 1/1/08).....all operators of motorized vessels with horsepowers in excess of 25 (caveat: public waters) shall first obtain the safe boating certificate according to the applicable age schedule. The key words of the RSA are no person & shall operate, highlighted below: Safe Boater Education Section 270-D:10 270-D:10 Certificate Required. – I. No person born on or after the dates provided in this section shall operate a motorized vessel with any type of power motor in excess of 25 horsepower on the public waters of this state without first obtaining a certificate of boating safety education in accordance with this subdivision: Date of Birth Certificate Required January 1, 1983 January 1, 2002 January 1, 1977 January 1, 2003 January 1, 1973 January 1, 2004 January 1, 1967 January 1, 2005 January 1, 1963 January 1, 2006 January 1, 1957 January 1, 2007 All January 1, 2008

03-19-2006, 04:02 PM	#5
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Apples and oranges In an auto you need to demonstrate the ability to operate an auto to get a license. There is no real way you're going to learn this from a book or class. So the law allows someone to teach you in a real car on a real street. But in a boat you're only learning safety rules and you only need to pass a test to prove you've learned the rules. The boater education is not concerned with physically operating a boat. There isn't even a section on operating a throttle, or raising a sail. Given the gamut of boats out there, a class covering all recreational boats would be extensive. After you've learned the rules, you can learn to operate a boat, but that's beyond the scope of the boater education certificate.

03-19-2006, 04:26 PM	#6
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	Therein lies the rub.... JRC is right, comparing the motor vehicle code to the boating code can be comparing apples/oranges at times. However, the important point is that to operate a car you must show driver proficiency, not just memorization of key portions of the applicable motor vehicle laws. With the boating safety certificate there is no provision for operational proficiency, thereby possesion of a safety certificate by no means guarantees your ability to operate the vessel you may be in command of. Which then brings us to the temporary certificates and problems with rental pwcs & boats! I think the intent of the legislative sponsors in forbidding adults to operate without a certificate after a certain period was to ensure that all adults get some type of boater education. They allowed the "under 16" loophole because at some point you would become "16" and then have to have the certificate. If they allowed an uncertified adult to operate with a certificate holder on board, you could get a significant portion of the adult population (spouses, for example) that would never bother to obtain the certificate, they would just operate under occasion by utilizing the other's certificate. In years past when waterways were much less congested and boats of much lesser capacities in size, horsepower & high speeds these questions were of little or no concern. Given today's realities, changes and greater demands will always be on the horizon for the general boating community. Unfortunately these changes will in most cases be reactionary vice proactive... Skip

03-20-2006, 01:49 PM	#15
Rayhunt Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Gilford NH Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Sorry Sorry BI Its 16 to operate ski craft or pwc's , you are correct, I thought it had changed to 12 to operate a motor.. Although I was pretty adept with my 10 foot rowboat with a 3 hp Johnson on it when I was 6-7 years old.. Another wonderful freedom we still enjoy in NH never too young to learn boating skills

03-19-2006, 01:36 PM	#3
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Skip Does this mean you can take the helm without a certificate if you are under 16, but not if you are 16 or over. The section below seems clear but doesn't it conflict with 270-D:10 Perhaps "operate" means to be responsible for the boats operation but not necessarily holding the wheel. In a plane the "pilot in command" is responsible but does not need to be at the controls. 270:30 Minimum Age for Operation. – No person under 16 years of age shall operate a motorized vessel having power in excess of 25 horsepower on the public waters of this state unless the person is accompanied by a person 18 years of age or older who has a valid safe boater education certificate, and such person shall be liable for personal injury or property damage which may result from such operation. Whoever violates this section shall be guilty of a violation.

03-19-2006, 04:29 PM	#7
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	When I was involved in teaching safe boating classes the issue of "practical" instruction was raised by our group on at least one occasion. The reason we never did it....all together now... litigation! Not the mention the logistical nightmare of trying to get 30 or so people in one of our average classes, enough time at the helm the limited number of vessels we had access to, to do any good.

03-19-2006, 07:52 PM	#8
Silver Duck Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica, MA Posts: 364 Thanks: 40 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks, Skip. I was thinking of the same clause as Bear Islander, and wanted to be certain. It does seem a bit non-sensical that I could legally allow a six year old to take the wheel under my supervision, but not a responsible adult! Guess it was set up that way to maximize participation! Silver Duck

03-19-2006, 09:10 PM	#9
Merrymeeting Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Merrymeeting Lake, New Durham Posts: 2,226 Thanks: 302 Thanked 800 Times in 368 Posts	Also consider that the under 16 rule has distinct benefits. I let my children drive the boat all the time. But only when traffic is not an issue, and only when I am sitting right beside them and able to take control at any moment. The benefit is that one of them turns 16 in another month. He has been driving the boat beside me long enough to now have many hours of experience behind the wheel, and many more hours of me teaching him the rules of the water while he's been driving. I am now much more confident that he will be a responsible, safe driver when he gets his license this Spring.

03-19-2006, 11:45 PM	#11
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	That six year old can legally operate a 25 horsepower boat all by himself. But it will be 10 years before he is allowed to attend a safe boating course, let alone obtain a certificate. So a 45 year old must have a certificate to operate a 30 HP boat. But a five year old operating a 25 HP boat is not allowed to have a certificate.

03-20-2006, 07:08 PM	#16
Silver Duck Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica, MA Posts: 364 Thanks: 40 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Actually, I don't have a 6 year old, that was just a figure of speech; what I do have is a three year old grand daughter, and I'm not crazy enough to let her take the wheel (yet)! I was thinking more of boating friends & family members who will be itching to try out the new boat, but have no other reason to bother with geting a NH certficate. Guess that they'll just have to settle for being passengers! Silver Duck