Laconia Prison and the State Budget

[angela4design]

Gov. Lynch issued some proposals for trimming the state budget this past week.

Among the proposed, he suggested closing 16 State Liquor Stores (with the weakest revenue), changing EZ Pass programs and CLOSING the Laconia Prison. Inmates would be transferred to the Berlin facility (where a gymnasium would be converted to bunks to house 100), and some to Concord, I believe.

I'm not sure what to make of this - the state still has to maintain a then-emptied campus of facilities, the number of inmates doesn't decrease - it just MOVES, and I would imagine that would make it far harder for Guards to keep peace in over crowded prisons.

If this will save the state money - why, and how? Would such a change affect surrounding property value? Will it affect the local market by losing those jobs held by prison guards, facilities employees, etc?

I'm not seeing the reasoning here, I guess. What do YOU think?

[SAMIAM]

The site of the prison is a beautiful property overlooking (and including a beautiful beach) lake Winnisquam.It would make a nice resort....even a small college.......would be nice to get some tax revenue. It has at least 1/2 of pristine shoreline in addition to the two beaches.Somebody get Donald Trump on the phone.

[fatlazyless]

On Oct 20, 2005, Senator Judd Gregg won about $850,000 in a national Powerball, 5 out of 6 quikpik, in Washington DC. As a resident of New Hampshire, the state got exactly zero from Senator Gregg's winnings.

No, do not have a tax on lottery winnings, just close the rest stops and increase the meals & lodging tax from an aready high 8% to 8 1/2%. This makes sense (sarcasm alert)!

[phoenix]

most states are in deep financial trouble and are looking to close substantial gaps to balance a budget since they can't easily deficit finance like the feds( they do issue bonds for capital expenditures) . Arizona is looking at a potential 30% gap next year between revenue and cost and about half of its budget is off limits due to federal rules or prior voter approved spending initiatives. Since the Governor in NH is committed to avoiding the third rail (sales or income taxes) his proposals are a lot of small tax increases and savings that you listed. It will be interesting how this progresses through a heavily democratic legislature over the next few months. I still expect the donor town concept to reappear

[Irish mist]

The Laconia prison was never supposed to be a long-term solution. It is the most expensive prison in NH to run. Like SAMIAN said it is a property that is beautiful......and has a higher use in its future than prison space. This most likely will hurt the local economy in the short-run. In the long run that property will be put to much better use....we hope ! Since government is involved you can never be sure.
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BMW MODEL DESIGNATIONS

[Ropetow]

Here's a good idea from Governor Lynch:

"To make it possible to close Lakes Region, we had to look for different ways to manage our inmate population. There are between 100 and 200 non-violent illegal immigrants in our prison system whom the federal government already plans to deport. The Department of Corrections will enter an agreement with the U.S. Immigration Services to speed these deportations."

Bravo!

[kjbathe]

I applaud the Governor for finding ways to spend less money rather than trying to find more "revenue" (i.e. taxes). As the most expensive prison the DOC operates, it should be closed.

However, I'm not a fan of the proposed EZPass changes (elimination of the discount and capping monthly bills at $30). Even though I would benefit tremendously from the cap, the folks that use the roads the most should be paying their tolls to maintain them. In other words, why are we looking to penalize less frequent users of the toll roads by having them pay a proportionally larger toll when they do use those roads?

I still can't figure out where the savings have gone by switching to EZPass. Electronic toll collection costs 7 cents on the dollar compared with manual toll collection. Yet with EZPass in NH, not only didn't we realize the 93% cost reduction, our discount was reduced by 40% over tokens, then we were charged for transponders, and now they want to eliminate the discount altogether? Something isn't adding up there... Then again, if this is the same group that determined it was best to put the EZPass lanes in the middle, exact change on the left and cash on the right lanes of the plaza, it's no wonder it doesn't add up.

If we can house inmates more cost effectively in other facilities, do so. If we have liquor stores that are not profitable, close them. And if we need to stack inmates 4 to a bunk in a gym, I'm good with that, too. Abide by the law and you don't need worry about the DOC accommodations being to your liking.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by kjbathe

I applaud the Governor for finding ways to spend less money rather than trying to find more "revenue" (i.e. taxes). As the most expensive prison the DOC operates, it should be closed.

However, I'm not a fan of the proposed EZPass changes (elimination of the discount and capping monthly bills at $30). Even though I would benefit tremendously from the cap, the folks that use the roads the most should be paying their tolls to maintain them. In other words, why are we looking to penalize less frequent users of the toll roads by having them pay a proportionally larger toll when they do use those roads?

I still can't figure out where the savings have gone by switching to EZPass. Electronic toll collection costs 7 cents on the dollar compared with manual toll collection. Yet with EZPass in NH, not only didn't we realize the 93% cost reduction, our discount was reduced by 40% over tokens, then we were charged for transponders, and now they want to eliminate the discount altogether? Something isn't adding up there... Then again, if this is the same group that determined it was best to put the EZPass lanes in the middle, exact change on the left and cash on the right lanes of the plaza, it's no wonder it doesn't add up.

If we can house inmates more cost effectively in other facilities, do so. If we have liquor stores that are not profitable, close them. And if we need to stack inmates 4 to a bunk in a gym, I'm good with that, too. Abide by the law and you don't need worry about the DOC accommodations being to your liking.

Lynch is asking for a host of new taxes: ciggs again, along with a rooms & meals tax increase, and car fees and other assorted taxes. I'm pleased that he's trying to ship these illegals out of NH faster. Good common sense there. But overall Lynch has been wayyyy too passive. He allowed his party to increase the last 2 year budget 17.5% which has put us in the terrible position we are in now. Nice guy.....but a weak leader. My guess is that there were no lay-offs at the tolls......hence no savings. You need to cut personal & pensions to get any real savings.
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[fatlazyless]

An increase from 8% to 8 1/2 % in the meals and lodging tax is supposed to raise an additional 40 million dollars. This will impact all the low income people who live off the McDonald's dollar menu. It's not fair to them. All those McDoubles, and McChickens will now get charged 1.09, up fom 1.08, which is actually a 9% tax, because the half penny will get rounded up.

It's time to seriously start talking about a NH state income tax!

[angela4design]

That property is beautiful - and valuable! I remember when it was a 'mental health' facility back in the 80's. It would make a great resort location, with lakes views, access, and more.

So, I'll hesitantly throw in a heated question: Casino location?

Again, I'm ASKING - I don't feel that I've really educated myself about the pro's and con's of that option - anywhere in the state, not just there. It's certainly not a quick answer to anything, but what are the other drawbacks? Is it because of the addictive nature of gambling?

[ITD]

Scraaaaaatcccccch skip.....

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

On Oct 20, 2005, Senator Judd Gregg won about $850,000 in a national Powerball, 5 out of 6 quikpik, in Washington DC. As a resident of New Hampshire, the state got exactly zero from Senator Gregg's winnings.

No, do not have a tax on lottery winnings, just close the rest stops and increase the meals & lodging tax from an aready high 8% to 8 1/2%. This makes sense (sarcasm alert)!

Scraaaaaatcccccch skip.....

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

On Oct 20, 2005, Senator Judd Gregg won about $850,000 in a national Powerball, 5 out of 6 quikpik, in Washington DC. As a resident of New Hampshire, the state got exactly zero from Senator Gregg's winnings.

No, do not have a tax on lottery winnings, just close the rest stops and increase the meals & lodging tax from an aready high 8% to 8 1/2%. This makes sense (sarcasm alert)!

Scraaaaaatcccccch skip.....

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

On Oct 20, 2005, Senator Judd Gregg won about $850,000 in a national Powerball, 5 out of 6 quikpik, in Washington DC. As a resident of New Hampshire, the state got exactly zero from Senator Gregg's winnings.

No, do not have a tax on lottery winnings, just close the rest stops and increase the meals & lodging tax from an aready high 8% to 8 1/2%. This makes sense (sarcasm alert)!

Scraaaaaatcccccch skip.....

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

On Oct 20, 2005, Senator Judd Gregg won about $850,000 in a national Powerball, 5 out of 6 quikpik, in Washington DC. As a resident of New Hampshire, the state got exactly zero from Senator Gregg's winnings.

No, do not have a tax on lottery winnings, just close the rest stops and increase the meals & lodging tax from an aready high 8% to 8 1/2%. This makes sense (sarcasm alert)!

[Ropetow]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

It's time to seriously start talking about a NH state income tax!

Yawn.....The citizens of NH have spoken on this one many times. Is it a coincidence that Lynch has taken 'the pledge' and keeps getting re-elected?

[Argie's Wife]

Please no more taxes - you can't get blood from a turnip.

And no casinos. If you think you pay a lot in taxes now to cover the budgets of your local law enforcement, just wait...

Back to the subject of the buildings & property...

Wasn't that prison originally a state school? And wasn't the state school a working farm?

My parents managed a town's "poor farm" in Maine and we lived at the facility from the time I was 2 years old until I was 14. My father had a goal of making the facility self-sufficient by farming the land that the facility was on and using the produce to feed the patients (there were about 26-30 patients, and about 10+ staff members.) There was also livestock there but the focus was more on farming. Extra produce was sold to the local grocery stores, at a roadside stand and other venues. The revenue was returned to the town. His plan worked well and the facility became a revenue maker - not a bottomless pit.

Rather than another resort in the area, we need more working farms. The farm land could be used for recreational things (i.e. snowshoeing, cross country skiing, etc.) in the winter - but that's excellent land and should be made of good use. You can't tell me that some sort of corrections facility/agricultural center couldn't be placed there?

[no-engine]

Lynch was interviewed on TV. I read "between the lines" that his hint was the liquor stores at rest areas are not good profit centers. Makes sense: move them to malls where food stores are. OFF the highways. At rest areas, the state could rent the space to food concessions & sit-down areas, revamp the buildings with "information", making them more than a path to the restrooms. I never understood why a liquor store on an interstate northbound is a part of "welcome to New Hampshire"! Did Prez Eisnehower have this in mind when his administration designed the interstate highway system?

Lynch's actions were so unnecessary when EZ Pass was about to be implemented. Too long to write. If he makes changes to pass-holder costs, I'll go back to an account in another state; I will gain a no-charge transponder, and my only loss will be the discount at NH tolls. I reside in NH and used to have a NY account. My brother lives in MA and has had an account yet another state!

[SAMIAM]

Argies Wife really hit on a great idea...imagine that whole facility being a working farm/state park....with everyone thinking "green" these days. Every school in New England would bring their kids to tour a real working farm,as would every parent want their child to see what things were like in the good ol' days.I'll bet there would be investors interested if the city of Laconia was not willing.

[kjbathe]

Originally Posted by no-engine

If he makes changes to pass-holder costs, I'll go back to an account in another state; I will gain a no-charge transponder, and my only loss will be the discount at NH tolls.

There may not be a NH discount to lose. I had a free account out of Maryland for several years (no signup or monthly fees, free transponders, free billing by credit card, just pay toll costs) to take advantage of EZPass in Maine and Mass until the NH system was finally implemented.

If the NH discount is eliminated, it will be a no-brainer to switch back.

[no-engine]

Originally Posted by kjbathe

There may not be a NH discount to lose. I had a free account out of Maryland for several years (no signup or monthly fees, free transponders, free billing by credit card, just pay toll costs) to take advantage of EZPass in Maine and Mass until the NH system was finally implemented.

If the NH discount is eliminated, it will be a no-brainer to switch back.

HOORAY. YOU SAID IT IN DIFFERENT WORDS!

Thing is, those who paid for a NH transponder would loose that money, which is not refundable. I think I was early and paid NH $5.00. The language (contract) is that state owns the equipment! What did we pay for? They were /are free with most others.

[M/V_Bear_II]

Originally Posted by kjbathe

However, I'm not a fan of the proposed EZPass changes (elimination of the discount and capping monthly bills at $30). Even though I would benefit tremendously from the cap, the folks that use the roads the most should be paying their tolls to maintain them.

$30 without a discount is passing through one of the tollbooths twice a day every work day. Unless you're commuting from Concord to Nashua 3 times a day, I don't see how anyone would benefit from losing the discount but having the monthly bill capped. This is an idiotic plan. There are a half-dozen other states that I would rather be changing my account to.

[Ropetow]

Originally Posted by M/V_Bear_II

Unless you're commuting from Concord to Nashua 3 times a day, I don't see how anyone would benefit from losing the discount but having the monthly bill capped. This is an idiotic plan.

I'd love to see the state provide some statistics on how many 'frequent users' there are on the turnpike system and what their average monthly bill is. I am one of them. Commute from Rochester to MA. Not 52 weeks a year, as I am a college prof. But about 35 weeks. My daily tolls before any discount are $6. With the 30% discount that is about $84 per month. And that is not counting trips to the mall in Newington, to Portsmouth, to visit my mom & mom-in-law in MA, etc. How many other 'businesses' reward frequent users? Airlines for one. Restaurants for two. One of our favorites in Dover has their own frequent diner program....you accrue 5% of your total bill in points that can be redeemed for meals, take-out party platters, etc. I get more 'free' stuff than does the guy that goes there occasionally. Isn't that fair? Many of the independent restaurants in the seacoast region are part of the FIRA Card program where you can likewise redeem 'points' for meals. Sure, I could try to find a similar job in NH, as could any frequent commuter. But would we earn the same income? Likely not. Thus, there would be less discretionary spending at NH businesses. I buy nothing in MA. Not sure my gas station would like losing my business, not to mention my auto mechanic! Not sure $30 is the right 'cap' amount but it is nice to see Lynch taking a stand on something...anything!

[M/V_Bear_II]

Originally Posted by Ropetow

I'd love to see the state provide some statistics on how many 'frequent users' there are on the turnpike system and what their average monthly bill is. I am one of them. Commute from Rochester to MA. Not 52 weeks a year, as I am a college prof. But about 35 weeks. My daily tolls before any discount are $6. With the 30% discount that is about $84 per month. And that is not counting trips to the mall in Newington, to Portsmouth, to visit my mom & mom-in-law in MA, etc. How many other 'businesses' reward frequent users? Airlines for one. Restaurants for two. One of our favorites in Dover has their own frequent diner program....you accrue 5% of your total bill in points that can be redeemed for meals, take-out party platters, etc. I get more 'free' stuff than does the guy that goes there occasionally. Isn't that fair? Many of the independent restaurants in the seacoast region are part of the FIRA Card program where you can likewise redeem 'points' for meals. Sure, I could try to find a similar job in NH, as could any frequent commuter. But would we earn the same income? Likely not. Thus, there would be less discretionary spending at NH businesses. I buy nothing in MA. Not sure my gas station would like losing my business, not to mention my auto mechanic! Not sure $30 is the right 'cap' amount but it is nice to see Lynch taking a stand on something...anything!

I stand corrected. I either am totally unaware of toll costs in the eastern part of the state, or that includes some MA tolls. Either way, that's a big bill, and you would certainly be helped.

For the record, since it appears you may have misunderstood, my original point was not that frequent users like you don't deserve the cap - it was that with the increase, the cap wouldn't actually help.

And another aside - I'm not sure that NH would be able to get away with capping bills accrued in other states, unless they're willing to pay the other states back. So that part of the proposition seems weird to me.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

The site of the prison is a beautiful property overlooking (and including a beautiful beach) lake Winnisquam.It would make a nice resort....even a small college.......would be nice to get some tax revenue. It has at least 1/2 of pristine shoreline in addition to the two beaches.Somebody get Donald Trump on the phone.

You just jogged an "FLL-type thought" I'd had for other government budget woes.

Why not have developers buy Ellacoya State Park (which too-frequently closes the waters there anyway) and use part of the funds to eliminate the budget shortfall? Excess proceeds could add camping sites elsewhere, open new State parks distant from Lake Winnipesaukee and improve other State Parks in the state.

The Federal Government could sell Yellowstone National Park as well—maybe for trillions, when it's all done! (Yellowstone's sitting on a volcano anyway).

[Ropetow]

Originally Posted by M/V_Bear_II

I stand corrected. I either am totally unaware of toll costs in the eastern part of the state, or that includes some MA tolls. Either way, that's a big bill, and you would certainly be helped.

For the record, since it appears you may have misunderstood, my original point was not that frequent users like you don't deserve the cap - it was that with the increase, the cap wouldn't actually help.

And another aside - I'm not sure that NH would be able to get away with capping bills accrued in other states, unless they're willing to pay the other states back. So that part of the proposition seems weird to me.

What I described was NH only tolls. There are no MA tolls on my route. And yes, NH would have no right to cap tolls paid in another state. But, then again, Governor Patrick wants our merchants to collect his sales taxes, doesn't he? The Hampton tolls on I95 are $1.50 each way. If a commuter just passed through those tolls to-and-from work, that would be $3 per day, or $15 per week, or $60 per month. Subtract $18 for the current 30% discount and that person is still paying $42 per month for going through just one toll plaza!

[kjbathe]

Originally Posted by M/V_Bear_II

I either am totally unaware of toll costs in the eastern part of the state

It's the toll density

Hampton, Dover and Rochester is an expensive stretch of road.

[fatnoah]

Massachusetts offers both discounts and a tax deduction for using the FastLane transponders at some Boston area tolls. They also just got rid of the fee to "purchase" a transponder and now charge 50 cents/month. That's fine by me since I save 50 cents a day with the reduced toll on the Tobin Bridge. Fast Lane tolls are also deductible for state income taxes.

With regards to the prison in Laconia, it seems like a state park with a beach or something that takes advantage of the location straddling Winnesquam and Opechee would be a great idea. It would also help keep out miscreants that might be tempted to sneak into the Shore Drive or Wildwood Association beaches.

[Sunrise Point]

I think that the idea of a working farm/educational center is worth looking into. It would be great to keep it as open land and especially keep it accessable to all. It's a beautiful spot.

I spent a winter weekend in Livermore Falls, Maine several years ago at Norlands Living History Farm. I went with my daughter's girl scout troop and we paid $$$ to spend the weekend caring for livestock, boiling maple sugar, baking, hauling wood and washing without benefit of plumbing, electricity or central heat. We were busy every minute. Those 12 year old girls LOVED it.

[Sunrise Point]

Argie's Wife mentioned a "poor farm". I read a book about a county home years ago and have been searching for the name and author since I read her post. I finally found it.

If you are interested, you might enjoy reading The Elm at the Edge of the Earth by Robert D. Hale.

[Argie's Wife]

Thanks for the note about the book - it does look interesting and I can relate with the child growing up with the multitude of "odd' influences in his life. I always said I felt like I had 26 grandmothers and grandfathers (and couldn't get away with anything!)

[no-engine]

Originally Posted by fatnoah

Massachusetts offers both discounts and a tax deduction for using the FastLane transponders at some Boston area tolls. They also just got rid of the fee to "purchase" a transponder and now charge 50 cents/month. That's fine by me since I save 50 cents a day with the reduced toll on the Tobin Bridge. Fast Lane tolls are also deductible for state income taxes.

How is that personal tax deduction justified?
YES if one claims vehicle expenses as a business expense, fine.

Are fast lane tolls considered a tax that is deductible, like real estate taxes?

Does the MA toll locations recognize the address of the transponder?
I used to get a 10% discount for "electronic toll collection" in DE, but it was recently eliminated regardless of address. I still have a NY account with no fees, since the days before NH started; I kept it in case NH adds fees or eliminates discount to NH accounts, where I live. Coincidentally, I had not used it in a few years, and yesterday tested it at Hookset - still works; I had not read this thread. I never had the MA account. My brother lives in MA and got his account in MD with no transponder fees.

The Lynch story about implementing EZ pass in NH is a "story".

[fatnoah]

The tax deduction is part of a broader commuter tax deduction and includes certain tolls paid through a FastLane account as well as monthly transit passes. As fars as I know, it was first passed by the legislature in 2004 as a temporary measure, but was later made permanent.

Reduced tolls are most likely based on the transponder issuing agency than any address information associated.

As for the prison property, I drove by this weekend and noticed that sign for the cooperative farm is gone. It's probably been gone for years and I just noticed. How long has the farm been gone? Did that happen when the facility was converted to a prison?