Ice thickness

[Webbsatwinni]

Thanks DRH, we may rethink.

[DRH]

It's snowing hard here at the lake now. At 9:45 a.m. we have about 3" of fluffy new snow on the ground. Temp. is 10 degs. with no wind.

The poor snowmobiling conditions we encountered on the lake yesterday, specifically the overheating problem due to the hard-packed snow surface, will almost certainly be resolved with this new snow. The NWS is calling for up to 9" total accumulation today in NH.

11:30 A.M. UPDATE: We now have 6" of snow and extremely low visibility. The NWS has increased it's expected snowfall estimate and is now predicting up to 14" for this area.

[hilltopper]

Just shy of 6" in Meredith now with heavy snow continuing. If we get wrap around snow instead of the storm simply pulling out, 10" to 12" isn't out of the question. Snowmobiling should be top notch after this!

Update: 1:40 PM. 9.5" and counting.

[fatlazyless]

...drilled three holes yesterday w/ my 4" handcranker, and the ice thickness was 9". 9" and 10", about 100 yards out just east of buoy #3, in something like 25' of water...saw about 25 snowmobiles and a couple atv's....and zero cars or trucks

[Mink Islander]

at Mink Island. Light fluffy stuff.

[hazelnut]

My brother in law and I purchased a pair of sleds on Saturday afternoon at HK Powersports in Laconia. He bought a Yamaha and I bought a Polaris. Anyway we took delivery on the spot, (Good People at HK by the way). We took off from Laconia headed across Paugus bay picked up the railroad track up near the channel, headed through the Weirs and hopped back on the lake by Akwa Marina and went out across by Eagle around the tip of Meredith Neck and between the neck and Bear Island then cut in to the Patrician Shores area to his house. Later on that evening we went into Center Harbour took the trails over to Moultonboro Neck alll the way out to Ambrose area allllll the way down through Moultonboro bay all the way through the Graveyard out to Cow Island. We visited some friends out on the Island then headed back. This time we took ice to the Long Island bridge and crossed over the town beach headed past Braun bay along towards Black Cat Island and then across to Patrician Shores. SO, I would say the ice is pretty solid based on my experiences this weekend. The conditions were AWFUL though. VERY bumpy like moguls on a ski hill.

Today was a VERY different story.

The lake is covered in a beautiful light fluffy powder. The only challenge was seeing through all the snow blowing up over the windshield, ha ha ha. It was like riding in a snow cocoon. During the height of the snowstorm I was out on the lake trying to find Center Harbor. It took me two tries. Once I did we headed up over the Red Hill trail from Center Harbour over to Meredith. Fueled up at Cumberland Farms and headed back over the hill to Center Harbour. Later on I took the Moultonboro Neck trail over to Ambrose cove again then looped back and backtracked over the trail back to Canter Harbor. I'm tired and sore but it was SOOOOO worth it.

[Treerider]

Took a ride at 4 pm today....too much powder, snow so light the skis sank to the bottom, and the powder over the hood!!!

[Webbsatwinni]

We decided to come up with the predictions of snow, yesterday afternoon the viability was poor but the ride was fine. We stopped frequently to check the ice and we wore our picks around our neck.

The snow was a little deep for our sleds (only because the snow was coming over the hood) but other than that, we had no issues getting to Rattlesnake.

We spent the night and the first sunrise of 09 from the lake was worth it!

I took some good shots of the broads side of Rattlesnake and will post them when we get home.

[murph]

Hazelnut who do you know in Patrician Shores? I have a place there and go up almost every weekend to go riding.

[hazelnut]

Hey murph,

My sister and her husband are actually renting in Sands of Brookhurst. I said Patrician Shores because more people have probably heard of it than the other.

I'll probably see you around this winter then.

[nightrider]

This past weekend there was 10" of ice on the eastern shore of Winter Harbor opposite the opening to the broads. Plenty of sleds coming into the Harbor from the broads all day Saturday. Not too many Sunday as it was snowing hard.

[murph]

Well if you see a bright orange sled with white skis. Its me. My dad will be one a red and black sled but you shouldnt have a problem spotting me if you do happen to see me go by... cant miss my sled haha

[hazelnut]

Awesome, look for my all black Polaris 600 Touring sled and I'll most likely be following my brother in law on his bright blue Yamaha Apex - GT. Tough to keep up with that beast.

We did quite a bit of riding this weekend.

[BoulderBronco]

Originally Posted by nightrider

This past weekend there was 10" of ice on the eastern shore of Winter Harbor opposite the opening to the broads. Plenty of sleds coming into the Harbor from the broads all day Saturday. Not too many Sunday as it was snowing hard.

I must say I'm suprised there was only 10". Is Winter Harbor basically Wolfeboro bay? I figured with these temps we would see a solid 14-16" everywhere by now. Wouldn't these temps yield about 1" per day of new ice?

[trfour]

Forget your brother in-law, you are very fortunate that you haven't ridden with trfour!

[Formula260SS]

Originally Posted by BoulderBronco

I must say I'm suprised there was only 10". Is Winter Harbor basically Wolfeboro bay? I figured with these temps we would see a solid 14-16" everywhere by now. Wouldn't these temps yield about 1" per day of new ice?

I was very surprised there was only 7" outside of Minge Cove, I expected bigger numbers also. This goes to show how important it is be be sure the ice is safe no matter how cold it's been

[tis]

Originally Posted by BoulderBronco

I must say I'm suprised there was only 10". Is Winter Harbor basically Wolfeboro bay? I figured with these temps we would see a solid 14-16" everywhere by now. Wouldn't these temps yield about 1" per day of new ice?

Winter Harbor is on the other side of Wolfeboro Neck, where the Libby Museum is. It starts at the broads entrance (or exit) and goes down by the old airport to Carry Beach, over to the Libby, by Piping Rock and up to the Basin Bridge.

[Zee]

Originally Posted by BoulderBronco

I must say I'm suprised there was only 10". Is Winter Harbor basically Wolfeboro bay? I figured with these temps we would see a solid 14-16" everywhere by now. Wouldn't these temps yield about 1" per day of new ice?

Winter Harbor actually froze almost two weeks before Wolfeboro Bay. That makes a big difference.

[BoulderBronco]

Originally Posted by Zee

Winter Harbor actually froze almost two weeks before Wolfeboro Bay. That makes a big difference.

Really. So if there is only 10" in Winter Harbor there can't be much more than 5-6" in Wolfeboro. I guess I thought ice would generate much faster with the recent temps.

[NHDOLFAN]

I have read about how there is 10" of ice in one location and 5-6" of ice in another. Does anyone have a conversion chart that shows the weight capacity to inches of ice?

[Webbsatwinni]

Here is a website we found that has some good safety and capacity information.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/ice/thickness.html

[NHDOLFAN]

Great. Thanks for the info. It appears that the lake is close to being safe for snowmobiles. Bring on the Derby!

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by BoulderBronco

I figured with these temps we would see a solid 14-16" everywhere by now. Wouldn't these temps yield about 1" per day of new ice?

No. The 1" per day of ice formation only occurs when temperatures are a constant 15 degrees below zero, with no snow cover. Otherwise, it's considerably less than that.

[Mink Islander]

We've got about 12-14 inches (measured) on the North side of Mink Island. First couple are snow ice. The rest is good solid black ice. So by my rough calc's we've been making approximately 1/2 inch per day of ice so we should have nearly 20" by derby weekend if it stays cold.

Saturday's wind blew a lot of snow off the lake and drifted/packed the rest, though the riding should still be ok, but not great. Noticed a fair amount of surface water (slush under foot) passing through Cattle Landing on Sunday. There's usually an expansion crack in the general area off the white boathouse on Dolly Island across to the mainland and near there is pretty damp. I didn't have a auger with me so I could check the thickness. There was 7+ inches through there last week so other than any gaps that will appear if the weather warms, it should be fine through there- particularly on sleds. Not sure I'd drive a truck through there, however. Always an area to be a bit more cautious.

Been pretty quiet on the lake overall near me. Over the past two weekends I have seen a few groups of sleds heading north around Bear hugging the shoreline, some heading between Jolly and Camp heading NE and a few heading East towards the Broads. Ample sled traffic through Cattle Landing and south towards Governor's/Meredith. I expect traffic will pick up this coming weekend as the Derby nears!

[BoulderBronco]

Originally Posted by This'nThat

No. The 1" per day of ice formation only occurs when temperatures are a constant 15 degrees below zero, with no snow cover. Otherwise, it's considerably less than that.

No kidding. So those years when we had 20"+ it must have been crazy cold for a while. What kind of ice do you think the lake is generating these days? 1/2" a day? 1/4" a day?

I seem to remember having a derby, probably about 20 years ago, that we had 30" of ice halfway down Meredith bay. Can anyone remember that year? Whats the most ice you guys can remember?

[Mee-n-Mac]

For all the years we've had people, snowmobiles and various cars and trucks go through the ice I've often wondered if there wasn't a "good" way to measure the thickness in hopes of preventing all but the most foolhardy from taking a cold bath. I did some looking a while ago and tried to find a cheap and easy way to allow a person to make that measurement. I looked at doing it with sound (ultrasonics) and that doesn't seem viable. The problem is one of many layers of ice, snow and air all of which are in some unknown combination contributing to many reflections with varying timings through each layer (time correlating to thickness and density). I haven't given up on the idea but put it on the back burner as a result. I know airborne ground penetrating radar has been used but that seemed neither cheap nor easy. Electromagnetic induction coils have been used but that method depended on the salinity / conductivity of the water underneath. That's not going to work on a lake. There's a simpler variant of the radar method, detailed here, that seems to work. I don't know if 15 years advancement in electronics and signal processing would allow it to be "cheaply" though. The simplest answer would seem to be a small cordless drill attached to the end of a walking stick. You could get fancy and automate / instrument it to give a nice digital reading but I'd think color banding the bit would be sufficient. It doesn't help the sledders or truckers, unless they bother to stop and take a reading, but walkers might benefit. Of course they've already done a preliminary test just standing on the ice .....

Thoughts anyone ?

[Mink Islander]

Once you have drilled all the way through, how would you know at what point the bit hit water? Also, would need quite a long bit -- 2 ft of ice is not unusual. I suppose if you just wanted to test whether the ice was at least, say, 5 inches, you could use a shorter bit, mark the bit with tape or paint at the desired depth and drill to that level. If no water is found, then you know it's at least that thick. The problem is that you won't know how "good" the ice is using that technique -- meaning how much is slush ice vs. black ice. Just seems hard to get away from a handy manual ice auger -- might only need a 4" to be able to see where the black ice begins. Then I use a marked stick with a nail sticking out at 90 degrees to hook the bottom edge of the ice and measure up.

Google the Nimrod Ice Auger adaptor. It let's you use a cordless drill to connect to a number of brands of manual auger bits. Not sure how well it would work in extreme temps.

[Webbsatwinni]

All of this is good advice, the one main part that was stressed to me last year while learning about ice safety was about ice picks (I included a picture below). We wear them around our necks when ever we are on the ice. Knowing the ice depth is great, but what if the ice is thinner than you assumed and you are already on it?

I also added a picture we took two weekends ago, we cut a block out of the ice to see how thick it was, it was very solid ice (it is next to a hammer to provide scale). It was 100 ft into the broads off of Rattlesnake and it was a good 7-8 inches deep. Also, we checked the hole the next morning and there was over an ice of ice in less than 12 hours.

[NHDOLFAN]

Have you seen a lot of activity on the broads? I need to go to Rattlesnake via Wolfeboro Bay and want to make sure it's safe. I am on the Alton side of Rattlesnake.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

I took some good shots of the broads side of Rattlesnake and will post them when we get home.

The photos are GREAT!!!

Thanks - GH

(this one is THE BEST!!!)

[Webbsatwinni]

XCR

It is now my background at work to help the daydreaming.

BTW, nice boat, what year is it? I have been looking for a Glastron for some time and have not found a clean one to play with.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

BTW, nice boat, what year is it? I have been looking for a Glastron for some time and have not found a clean one to play with.

Its a 88 Glastron Carlson CVX-20 Sprint, and your right there hard to find around here.

I actually searched the country for this one and found it in Montana!

Its not the best "family" boat for Winnipesaukee. They look GREAT and are fun on a day when the lake is dead flat, but add any chop and its a rough ride.

Not much room in the cockpit either,,,

All that said, its my dream boat!!!

Our "family" boat is a 89 Glastron Carlson CSS-23, the ride is not too much better, but its a bit bigger - its deeper - and has cuddy (very small one) plus being a sterndrive, its a whole lot quieter.

Keep them pictures coming!!!

Thanks - George

[fatlazyless]

Took a walk out about 200 yards, just east of buoy 3, and measured three different spots about 50 yards apart. 10" - 9" - 11" with the eleven inch measurement being the furthest from shore....using a yardstick with an angle plate attached to the end, so it should be accurate. The last big snowfall has been compacted to about 5" of heavier snow with slush underneath.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Took a walk out about 200 yards, just east of buoy 3, and measured three different spots about 50 yards apart. 10" - 9" - 11" with the eleven inch measurement being the furthest from shore....using a yardstick with an angle plate attached to the end, so it should be accurate. The last big snowfall has been compacted to about 5" of heavier snow with slush underneath.

Have you seen any trucks or ice houses out there yet?

Thanks for the update.

George

[fatlazyless]

No, have not seen any cars or trucks out by buoy 3 and vicinity.

But, did see today, about six pickups and cars on Meredith Bay ice, parked next to bob houses, not very far from the town docks. Have no idea what the thickness is there.

[Senter Cove Guy]

We are planning to ride snowmobiles from about the 19 mile bay area over to Meredith on Derby weekend. Assuming we don't have some kind of thaw, would there be any reason not to do this? Are there areas on that trip to avoid? Like "The Hole in the Wall" or in between Eagle Island and Governor's Island? Just want to be safe.

[trfour]

Ice conditions can change so quickly that I would recommend that you keep monitoring this thread and others. It is pretty wonderful that so many folks are providing such critical info here. As of today, you would be fine, although I would stay clear of the channel through the Hole In the Wall.

I had a large cooling system with/ electric fan, and used graphite impregnated hyfax on my track frame so I never had to worry about overheating with my sled in minimal snow/on Lake ice conditions. Most are not so lucky.

Happy sledding to you and yours.
T

[BoulderBronco]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

The photos are GREAT!!!

Thanks - GH

(this one is THE BEST!!!)

Man that looks fun. But how safe is it out there? Did you check the ice? The broads are obviously the thinnest part usually so I personally would not want to go out there without knowing how much ice there was.

[Webbsatwinni]

We snowmobiled to the point and walked it first (and not in a line) with picks hanging around our neck. It was very solid and the pictures are not in the middle, it is only 60 ft from Rattlesnake.

30 ft off the breakwater felt really solid. We did cut a hole to check and it was 7+ inches thick where we checked. We did not cross the broads or spend much time on the ice knowing that the broads are typically thinner.

[BoulderBronco]

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

We snowmobiled to the point and walked it first (and not in a line) with picks hanging around our neck. It was very solid and the pictures are not in the middle, it is only 60 ft from Rattlesnake.

30 ft off the breakwater felt really solid. We did cut a hole to check and it was 7+ inches thick where we checked. We did not cross the broads or spend much time on the ice knowing that the broads are typically thinner.

Sounds like you know what your doing. Did you actually measure the ice or was that 7"+ a guestimate? I guess 7" out there isn't that bad. The thing I don't understand is how there can be that much (or little depending on how you look at it) in the Broads with all the cold temps, yet in the smaller areas I am hearing reports of the same. Did you see anyone else out in that area north of Rattlesnake? Tracks? Thanks for the report and pics.