Need quick lesson on docks

Steve H · 10-14-2008, 06:27 AM

I am looking at purchasing a island camp that has more dock space than we need or want to maintain. We have been told that the previous owner just added on every time he got a new boat and never got a permit. The docks are of marginal quailty. Would it be difficult to get a pemit to rip out the entire existing dock and replace it with smaller higher quality dock? How can you tell how much dock is legally supposed to be there or is it grandfathered? Just trying to avoid a can of worms.

Audiofn · 10-14-2008, 06:57 AM

From my building experience if there was no permit ever pulled then there is no grandfathering. You should be able to go to the town and find out what parts of the dock were permited for. Most towns/inspectors will only make you remove them if some one complains. If you want to put new docks in then you will have to start the entire process all over again. Should not be a huge deal as long as some of the dock was permeted. If non of it was then it will be like the docks were never there in the first place.

Gatto Nero · 10-14-2008, 09:29 AM

If you are just now buying your island property don't be so sure you won't make use of the dock space that you have before you willing give it away. Even if you don't need it right now for your own boats, jet skis, etc you may in the future. And even if you don't get more boats you will probably have visitors that will need to use it. There is only one way for people to visit you on an island and they will need dock space.

Orion · 10-14-2008, 10:52 AM

I totally agree with Gato Nero! Wait a year before you make any changes. Islanders always need more docks that they originally think. It's your driveway, after all.

Mink Islander · 10-14-2008, 11:45 AM

I'd be very concerned about buying a property where you don't have copies of the permits for the docks. I'd insist they get the proper permits so you know before you buy and have legally compliant docks. Don't let someone who thumbed their nose at the law transfer that problem to YOU! Nothing but downside risk in that.

Make sure you validate the septic permit too -- If the owner will violate the laws regarding docks, who knows what else has been done without proper permits and compliance with the law. Better to be safe than sorry. You're buying all those potential liabilities when you buy the house.

Just my 2cents.

codeman671 · 10-14-2008, 12:38 PM

I agree as well, I would not remove dockage until you truly determine your needs. A house on the lake will increase your popularity, you will find that your # of friends will increase dramatically

You may just find out that you don't have enough.

It is easy to look online and check what/ if any permits have been recorded with the registry. If they have been there for a while and are grandfathered, you may want to repair/replace what is there instead of pulling it all out and starting new due to the cumbersome permitting process. Mine took 125 days, and this was before 4+ years ago. Now the laws have been changed to add in extra restrictions/information needed to process.

How much frontage do you have? Based in current rules you are allowed 2 slips at 75', and can add an additional slip for every 75' thereafter. I believe the eligible frontage is calculated as an average between your actual frontage and your straight-line frontage (taking out all curves/bends). For instance, we have 289' which gives us 4 slips.

Island Girl · 10-14-2008, 01:01 PM

It is always good advice to let things play out for a while. In my island experience (8 years) there is never enough dock and/or mooring space. Having visitors is always a problem and we all share with our neighbors when we can to help.

As for permitting... all of that can take some time so I would make sure you permit for as much as possible. It does not mean you have to build it all.

IG

Bear Islander · 10-14-2008, 01:17 PM

A grandfathered dock is perfectly legal but will not have a permit. I would assume a dock is grandfathered unless you see proof otherwise. Nobody is going to question the legality of a dock unless there is a complaint.

I would think long and hard before I removed an existing non-conforming dock. You can fix or replace an existing dock. But once you remove it, it's gone forever, you will never ever be allowed to replace it. Extra dock space is like gold.

Steve H · 10-14-2008, 01:36 PM

I have found out that most of the docks were built in 2000 without a permit. I checked with the town and state and neither have any record of any dock permits ever being pulled at the property. They also said that unless they are grandfathered (built before 1969) they are not in legal and would have to be removed at some point. Has anyone ever heard of having to removed an unpermited dock?

They said to get them grandfathered they would need a dated picture pre 1969 or and afidavid from a neighbor stating that the docks were there.

Gatto Nero · 10-14-2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mink Islander

I'd be very concerned about buying a property where you don't have copies of the permits for the docks. I'd insist they get the proper permits so you know before you buy and have legally compliant docks. Don't let someone who thumbed their nose at the law transfer that problem to YOU! Nothing but downside risk in that.

I wouldn't make the existence of docking permits a contingency of the sale. What is the downside of buying with existing non-permitted docks if his intention is to conform to the new regs anyway? The chances are, if he does nothing about the docks, nothing will happen. The worst that could happen is that he is forced to comply to current regulations, which is what he wants to do anyway.

As for your original question, check out Env-Wt100-800 PART Env-Wt 402 at http://des.nh.gov/organization/commi...-wt100-800.pdf

Steve H · 10-14-2008, 02:09 PM

Actually there are two 4' + 42' finger docks, a 5' + 42' finger dock, a 40' dock walkway along the shoreline a 10' + 20' deck over the water. I would like to move the 10' + 20' onto the shore and keep 2 finger docks and make a U dock. I am afraid if I start moving things around I would get caught and get stuck with the max 6' + 30' that would be allowed on a property with a 100' of frontage.

Bear Islander · 10-14-2008, 02:23 PM

Your not going to be allowed a U dock with 100' of frontage. I doubt you can have the deck either, on land or over the water. Your best move may be to quietly take down one of the finger docks, cross your fingers and say nothing.

Gatto Nero · 10-14-2008, 02:52 PM

I think I'm with BI on this one. You have what sounds like a pretty good setup there that you could never get today. If somebody asks, I would just ASSUME it is all grandfathered until proven otherwise. In the meantime, just keep your head low and hope nobody notices.

"Steve H, I don't know any Steve H? Never heard of him"

jrc · 10-14-2008, 04:31 PM

I would get the seller to supply the grandfathering proof before I bought the place. Just look at the Ames Farm thread to see how bad it can get if you can't prove you're grandfathered. Eventually someone will complain, a ticked off neighbor, an environmental do-gooder, or someone from DES.

Rattlesnake Guy · 10-14-2008, 06:42 PM

Our recollection is less than 150 feet is 2 slips. Above 150 is 3.

hemlockpoint · 10-14-2008, 06:47 PM

I think its a little too late to keep quiet since Steve H has already spilled the beans to both the State and the Town. Once the State has their several new shoreland compliance people hired they are going to be focused on any new permits.

So I guess it plays out like this. If Steve H buys this place and just keeps quiet he may or may not have any enforcement depending on any neighbor complaints and if the State and Town people he has talked to have enough inertia to just let well enough alone. However if Steve wants to do anything to the camp that falls under the new shoreland protection act he will have a newly hired inspector coming out to visit who is tasked with enforcement. This includes any excavation or construction within the protected shoreland.

This property with 100 feet of frontage would be allowed
one 6x30 foot permanent dock because it is on an island or one 6x40 foot seasonal dock. No shore walkway would be allowed.Steps over the bank would be allowed to access the dock but no wider than 6 feet. The 10x20 deck could be moved on shore but no part could be less than 50 feet from the reference line.

Audiofn · 10-15-2008, 08:19 AM

When I posted earlier I assumed that these docks were put in after the requirement of permits being issued. It does turn out that my assumption was correct.

Now my experience with dealing with these things.... To qualify what I am saying I deal with inspectors on a fairly regular basis through my work and installing home automation systems. You may have a cool or a not so cool inspector. If you get a cool one and he likes you he may mention it to you but then "turn a blind eye". If you get a nasty one they can make you take it all down. They can also levey a fine against you per day that you do not comply. This is only likely to happen if you have a neighbor complain OR as some one said you go to make upgrades to the house, waterfront, docks.....

To give you an example I am currently replacing the windows and siding on my house. I had just after purchasing the house replaced the shed out back with a new one of the same size. I was told that no permit was required. In my case that was wrong. The previous owner never pulled a permit. So now my new shed has to comply to the new rules and regulations, even though the old shed was there for over 30 years!! Then he looked at my house and it turned out that there was an addition put on with out a permit. The addition was built on a slab and even though it had also been there for 30 years or more I am now in the process of supporting the roof, taking down all the walls so that I can pour a proper foundation and rebuilding everything. I do not have a beef with the inspector as he wants things built correctly but it did cost me about 10 grand over my budget and in this economy.... OUCH... The inspector seems to be saying that he is not going to make me move my shed as long as no one complains but if they do I will have to move it.

Now in Maine I can get away with just about anything....

Kamper · 10-23-2008, 01:20 PM

I did a little research on docks a few years ago. I believe the maximum length is supposed to be 40' unless bottom conditions require a longer reach. It's up to you to prove it.

I also found out that docks are like glass houses. Nobody who has one wants to start throwing stones at their neighbors'. I even asked on the boating forum "who has a permit for their dock?" and nobody responsed tio that question.

Do a "search" for docks and you will find a ton of information and opinions. I expect you won't have a problem unless somebody files a complaint because you've make your dock intrusive to others.

Good luck!

codeman671 · 10-23-2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

I did a little research on docks a few years ago. I believe the maximum length is supposed to be 40' unless bottom conditions require a longer reach. It's up to you to prove it.

I also found out that docks are like glass houses. Nobody who has one wants to start throwing stones at their neighbors'. I even asked on the boating forum "who has a permit for their dock?" and nobody responsed tio that question.

Do a "search" for docks and you will find a ton of information and opinions. I expect you won't have a problem unless somebody files a complaint because you've make your dock intrusive to others.

Good luck!

As previously mentioned, 40' is applicable only on seasonal docks. To get a 40' permanent you would have to have extremely shallow water. Typically they are limited to 30'. The rule of thumb is 25' of dock length from the point that the water is 3' deep at full lake. This defines the legal definition of a slip in NH. You are allowed 12' max between docks if multiple parallel fingers are involved, although if you have enough frontage for 4 slips you could do 2 fingers with 24' between for 4 total slips (or just 2 single fingers spaced apart on different parts of the frontage.

We were originally recommended to do a 36' walk along shore with 2 40' liftouts spaced 24; apart, however we ended up going to permanent docks (42' walkway on shore with 3 30'x6' fingers) because we wanted 4 way ties on the inner slips. Yes, all permitted. My neighbor just did a similar setup but he added 2 tie posts to the outside of 1 of his fingers.

My experience is that most people don't DES sniffing around for misc reasons so I don't think there is much stone throwing to be done. Unless you live near APS.

Island Life · 10-24-2008, 09:18 AM

You can never have enough dock space!!! You may not need it every day, but sometimes you will.

10-14-2008, 06:27 AM	#1
Steve H Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 9 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Need quick lesson on docks I am looking at purchasing a island camp that has more dock space than we need or want to maintain. We have been told that the previous owner just added on every time he got a new boat and never got a permit. The docks are of marginal quailty. Would it be difficult to get a pemit to rip out the entire existing dock and replace it with smaller higher quality dock? How can you tell how much dock is legally supposed to be there or is it grandfathered? Just trying to avoid a can of worms.

10-14-2008, 09:29 AM	#3
Gatto Nero Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Isola Gatto Nero Posts: 697 Thanks: 162 Thanked 263 Times in 81 Posts	If you are just now buying your island property don't be so sure you won't make use of the dock space that you have before you willing give it away. Even if you don't need it right now for your own boats, jet skis, etc you may in the future. And even if you don't get more boats you will probably have visitors that will need to use it. There is only one way for people to visit you on an island and they will need dock space. __________________ La vita è buona su Isola Gatto Nero

10-14-2008, 10:52 AM	#4
Orion Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Cow Island Posts: 914 Thanks: 602 Thanked 193 Times in 91 Posts	Wait! I totally agree with Gato Nero! Wait a year before you make any changes. Islanders always need more docks that they originally think. It's your driveway, after all.

10-14-2008, 11:45 AM	#5
Mink Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 753 Thanks: 59 Thanked 271 Times in 129 Posts	Illegal docks I'd be very concerned about buying a property where you don't have copies of the permits for the docks. I'd insist they get the proper permits so you know before you buy and have legally compliant docks. Don't let someone who thumbed their nose at the law transfer that problem to YOU! Nothing but downside risk in that. Make sure you validate the septic permit too -- If the owner will violate the laws regarding docks, who knows what else has been done without proper permits and compliance with the law. Better to be safe than sorry. You're buying all those potential liabilities when you buy the house. Just my 2cents.

10-14-2008, 01:01 PM	#7
Island Girl Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Central MA Posts: 2,352 Thanks: 18 Thanked 535 Times in 179 Posts	Do nothing for a year It is always good advice to let things play out for a while. In my island experience (8 years) there is never enough dock and/or mooring space. Having visitors is always a problem and we all share with our neighbors when we can to help. As for permitting... all of that can take some time so I would make sure you permit for as much as possible. It does not mean you have to build it all. IG __________________ Island Girl ....... Make Lemonade

10-14-2008, 06:57 AM	#2
Audiofn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bedford, MA/Naples, ME Posts: 162 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	From my building experience if there was no permit ever pulled then there is no grandfathering. You should be able to go to the town and find out what parts of the dock were permited for. Most towns/inspectors will only make you remove them if some one complains. If you want to put new docks in then you will have to start the entire process all over again. Should not be a huge deal as long as some of the dock was permeted. If non of it was then it will be like the docks were never there in the first place.

The Following User Says Thank You to Mink Islander For This Useful Post:
Steve H (10-14-2008)

10-14-2008, 12:38 PM	#6
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,489 Thanks: 221 Thanked 810 Times in 486 Posts	I agree as well, I would not remove dockage until you truly determine your needs. A house on the lake will increase your popularity, you will find that your # of friends will increase dramatically You may just find out that you don't have enough. It is easy to look online and check what/ if any permits have been recorded with the registry. If they have been there for a while and are grandfathered, you may want to repair/replace what is there instead of pulling it all out and starting new due to the cumbersome permitting process. Mine took 125 days, and this was before 4+ years ago. Now the laws have been changed to add in extra restrictions/information needed to process. How much frontage do you have? Based in current rules you are allowed 2 slips at 75', and can add an additional slip for every 75' thereafter. I believe the eligible frontage is calculated as an average between your actual frontage and your straight-line frontage (taking out all curves/bends). For instance, we have 289' which gives us 4 slips.

10-14-2008, 01:17 PM	#8
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	A grandfathered dock is perfectly legal but will not have a permit. I would assume a dock is grandfathered unless you see proof otherwise. Nobody is going to question the legality of a dock unless there is a complaint. I would think long and hard before I removed an existing non-conforming dock. You can fix or replace an existing dock. But once you remove it, it's gone forever, you will never ever be allowed to replace it. Extra dock space is like gold.

10-14-2008, 01:36 PM	#9
Steve H Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 9 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	More info on the docks I have found out that most of the docks were built in 2000 without a permit. I checked with the town and state and neither have any record of any dock permits ever being pulled at the property. They also said that unless they are grandfathered (built before 1969) they are not in legal and would have to be removed at some point. Has anyone ever heard of having to removed an unpermited dock? They said to get them grandfathered they would need a dated picture pre 1969 or and afidavid from a neighbor stating that the docks were there.

10-14-2008, 02:09 PM	#11
Steve H Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 9 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Reduce docks Actually there are two 4' + 42' finger docks, a 5' + 42' finger dock, a 40' dock walkway along the shoreline a 10' + 20' deck over the water. I would like to move the 10' + 20' onto the shore and keep 2 finger docks and make a U dock. I am afraid if I start moving things around I would get caught and get stuck with the max 6' + 30' that would be allowed on a property with a 100' of frontage.

10-14-2008, 02:23 PM	#12
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Your not going to be allowed a U dock with 100' of frontage. I doubt you can have the deck either, on land or over the water. Your best move may be to quietly take down one of the finger docks, cross your fingers and say nothing.

10-14-2008, 02:52 PM	#13
Gatto Nero Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Isola Gatto Nero Posts: 697 Thanks: 162 Thanked 263 Times in 81 Posts	I think I'm with BI on this one. You have what sounds like a pretty good setup there that you could never get today. If somebody asks, I would just ASSUME it is all grandfathered until proven otherwise. In the meantime, just keep your head low and hope nobody notices. "Steve H, I don't know any Steve H? Never heard of him" __________________ La vita è buona su Isola Gatto Nero

10-14-2008, 04:31 PM	#14
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I would get the seller to supply the grandfathering proof before I bought the place. Just look at the Ames Farm thread to see how bad it can get if you can't prove you're grandfathered. Eventually someone will complain, a ticked off neighbor, an environmental do-gooder, or someone from DES.

10-14-2008, 06:42 PM	#15
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	Our recollection is less than 150 feet is 2 slips. Above 150 is 3.

10-14-2008, 06:47 PM	#16
hemlockpoint Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think its a little too late to keep quiet since Steve H has already spilled the beans to both the State and the Town. Once the State has their several new shoreland compliance people hired they are going to be focused on any new permits. So I guess it plays out like this. If Steve H buys this place and just keeps quiet he may or may not have any enforcement depending on any neighbor complaints and if the State and Town people he has talked to have enough inertia to just let well enough alone. However if Steve wants to do anything to the camp that falls under the new shoreland protection act he will have a newly hired inspector coming out to visit who is tasked with enforcement. This includes any excavation or construction within the protected shoreland. This property with 100 feet of frontage would be allowed one 6x30 foot permanent dock because it is on an island or one 6x40 foot seasonal dock. No shore walkway would be allowed.Steps over the bank would be allowed to access the dock but no wider than 6 feet. The 10x20 deck could be moved on shore but no part could be less than 50 feet from the reference line.

10-15-2008, 08:19 AM	#17
Audiofn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bedford, MA/Naples, ME Posts: 162 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	When I posted earlier I assumed that these docks were put in after the requirement of permits being issued. It does turn out that my assumption was correct. Now my experience with dealing with these things.... To qualify what I am saying I deal with inspectors on a fairly regular basis through my work and installing home automation systems. You may have a cool or a not so cool inspector. If you get a cool one and he likes you he may mention it to you but then "turn a blind eye". If you get a nasty one they can make you take it all down. They can also levey a fine against you per day that you do not comply. This is only likely to happen if you have a neighbor complain OR as some one said you go to make upgrades to the house, waterfront, docks..... To give you an example I am currently replacing the windows and siding on my house. I had just after purchasing the house replaced the shed out back with a new one of the same size. I was told that no permit was required. In my case that was wrong. The previous owner never pulled a permit. So now my new shed has to comply to the new rules and regulations, even though the old shed was there for over 30 years!! Then he looked at my house and it turned out that there was an addition put on with out a permit. The addition was built on a slab and even though it had also been there for 30 years or more I am now in the process of supporting the roof, taking down all the walls so that I can pour a proper foundation and rebuilding everything. I do not have a beef with the inspector as he wants things built correctly but it did cost me about 10 grand over my budget and in this economy.... OUCH... The inspector seems to be saying that he is not going to make me move my shed as long as no one complains but if they do I will have to move it. Now in Maine I can get away with just about anything....

10-23-2008, 01:20 PM	#18
Kamper Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Thornton's Ferry Posts: 1,304 Thanks: 67 Thanked 171 Times in 127 Posts	I did a little research on docks a few years ago. I believe the maximum length is supposed to be 40' unless bottom conditions require a longer reach. It's up to you to prove it. I also found out that docks are like glass houses. Nobody who has one wants to start throwing stones at their neighbors'. I even asked on the boating forum "who has a permit for their dock?" and nobody responsed tio that question. Do a "search" for docks and you will find a ton of information and opinions. I expect you won't have a problem unless somebody files a complaint because you've make your dock intrusive to others. Good luck!

10-24-2008, 09:18 AM	#20
Island Life Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 273 Thanks: 12 Thanked 6 Times in 2 Posts	You can never have enough dock space!!! You may not need it every day, but sometimes you will. __________________ Island Life the way my grandparents' grandparents enjoyed it - but with a faster boat!!!