Proposed Law

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

...It would have been much more helpful to me, and others that have "commonly held misconceptions", for you to have explained what you think they are...

Fair enough...my apologies.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

...So without prompting another peek into your resume, how am I incorrect in saying that with no additional funding or manpower, that this new law will result in the diversion of crews? It's my understanding that a radar post on the water needs to be "static" so that means while radar is in use a safety patrol is NOT underway...

NHMP patrols already employ a great many hours of sitting static, closely observing boating traffic. Now some of these static activities will include the use of several radar guns. By the way, expect to see NHMP officers spending more time static this season and in the future.

Why?

Price of fuel. It will actually be the economy that impacts all law enforcement agencies, not just the NHMP, as they alter patrol practices to absorb fuel bills that in some cases have doubled this year with no additional funds allocated to offset the difference.

The economy has already and will continue to also eliminate or slow boating traffic across the Lakes region, regardless of the outcome from HB 847.

But back to the original question. Radar will be rolled in to the already scheduled practice of sitting still while observing. It just gives the officers another tool at their disposal for law enforcement purposes.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

...What will be very interesting to see, now that you pointed it out, is what the impact of the new law will be on the boating families throughout New Hampshire that don't normally travel fast but might not want to put their license on the line for violation of...say rafting rules...

My highlight for editorial purposes.

You really need to carefully read the final adopted version of HB 847 including the pertinent ammendments to RSA 270-D:2. Rafting Rules are not governed under the ammended RSA and hence will not be reported to NHDMV in case of a conviction. As a self proclaimed "cynic" that is highly critical of perceived mistakes made by the arguments of your opponents, it is incumbent upon you to have your facts straight. It is apparent by this and other comments you have made that while you remain highly critical of the ramifications of HB 847, you still do not have a firm grasp of what it actually entails.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

...And what's been lost in this debate is the Homeland Security mandate that coastal states, including NH, develop and implement a program getting recreational boaters involved in port security. That will also require manpower...

Devotion to Homeland and Port Security will remain a priority of the NHMP officers assigned to the Coast, a day to day mission that they have fulfilled for years since 9/11. The Federal Government has and continues to supplement with funding and manpower any additional resources they require of the NHMP in that arena. Rest assured that the NHMP can protect us from foreign & domestic terrorist attacks on Lake Winnipesaukee without detracting from their current daily assignments.

As a cynic you should be the first to recognize and dismiss the hype from reality.

[Airwaves]

Rafting Rules are not governed under the ammended RSA and hence will not be reported to NHDMV in case of a conviction. As a self proclaimed "cynic" that is highly critical of perceived mistakes made by the arguments of your opponents, it is incumbent upon you to have your facts straight. It is apparent by this and other comments you have made that while you remain highly critical of the ramifications of HB 847, you still do not have a firm grasp of what it actually entails.

And that's why I ask questions until I get answers

Price of fuel. It will actually be the economy that impacts all law enforcement agencies, not just the NHMP, as they alter patrol practices to absorb fuel bills that in some cases have doubled this year with no additional funds allocated to offset the difference.

The economy has already and will continue to also eliminate or slow boating traffic across the Lakes region, regardless of the outcome from HB 847.

You're probably right about the price of fuel changing the practices of the NHMP, but by the same token as you point out the boat traffic will also probably slow...with that the funding source for the NHMP. A Catch 22.

The Federal Government has and continues to supplement with funding and manpower any additional resources they require of the NHMP in that arena. Rest assured that the NHMP can protect us from foreign & domestic terrorist attacks on Lake Winnipesaukee without detracting from their current daily assignments.

The information I got from Homeland Security did not indicate that it was a funded mandate, it mandated states DEVELOP and IMPLEMENT the program. Glad to hear the NHMP will continue to protect us from attacks on LNG tankers on Winnipesaukee

[NoBozo]

Hi Skip: I have only been a member of this Forum for a few days and have only been observing for a couple of weeks so I really don't know, ...havn't gotten a flavor for the backgrounds of the various individuals posting.

You seem to be Very Knowledgable, being able to quote chapter and verse from the Statutes.

May I ask your background? Are you in Law Inforcement? ..NHMP?.. Or are you a Lawyer?

In way of offering my background: I am a Retired Mechanical Engineer. NoBozo

[tupelo]

A Brief and Irreverent History of Early Motoring and Speed Limits on NH Highways by tupelo

In the early days of motoring in NH, most cars were small, underpowered and unreliable. Speed limits existed nowhere on NH roads and highways. However by the early 1920's , bigger and better cars, like Duesenbergs, were finding their way onto these roads. Some were capable of doing 65 MPH right through downtown Laconia. They were fast and fun. Accidents occasionally happened but they were few and infrequent. One day a fast, new Duesy raced through Center Harbor, just hitting a small boy who fortunately only broke his arm as he rushed to cross the street. His mother however did not consider this to be such an insignificant injury. She spoke out, saying these GFBL cars need to slow down....my son might well have been killed. "Fear monger, fear monger" soon echoed through the ranks of the GFBL cars owners, directed at this vilified mother. Other townfolk soon began discussing speed limits as well. "But we've never had speed limits" cried some of GFBL car owners." We're turning into a nanny state" cried others. Some even called it feel good legislation. Soon more and more people though were clamoring for some limits. A man named Helvey Sanders became interested as well and a grassroots organization was born. He even traveled to N.Y. where speed limits had been established years ago. He came back after talking with law enforcement officials there about how these limits were instituted and enforced. He even sent letters to the editor detailing how they worked. "Foul play" cried many of the GFBL car owners. "You didn't spell out exactly who you spoke with, when you spoke with them, what their snail mail addresses are. You must provide annotated references with all letters to the editor. No wonder newspaper subscriptions are declining. Your newspaper is a rag. Yellow journalism." Some even threatened to drive their cars back and forth in front of Mr. Sanders' house(there were of course no stalking laws at this time). Soon some car dealerships also weighed in claiming their customers were not feeling welcome in the state and were going to move to Vermont. Besides they said, how are you going to measure and enforce speed limits...radar hasn't been invented yet so surely it will not work on land.
The controversy heated up. A poll was taken of NH residents asking if they felt the roads would be safer if there were speed limits. Mothers, fathers, horse and buggy owners, even common pedestrians weighed in. This statewide NH poll showed 85% of the people were in favor of speed limits on the roads. "Wait, foul play" cried the Duesy owners and other GFBL groups. "This poll is invalid because you only should poll car owners. How can a man who only rides a horse have any say". Soon the GFBL's organized a club, though a few people who owned horse and buggies, also Model T's were encouraged to join to give the sense of a fair and balanced club. They even took their own poll that showed 85% of their members thought "reasonable and prudent" would be a better standard. There was still the occasional accident, but forth came the rallying cry "this accident never would have happened if the car hadn't blown its tire while going through town at 70 mph".
There was even the occasional accident attributed to alcohol intoxication. One GFBL crashed into Ye Olde Tamarack Restaurant in broad daylight doing 55 mph but when it was later found that the driver was intoxicated and had misinterpreted the meaning of "Drive-In",the GFBL car owners cried "See, this proves speed limits would never work...drunks would never obey them!"
By now there was interest in the legislature for establishing speed limits. The house in fact passed this new bill, HB 7. "Vote the bums out" was heard from the "no limits" crowd. One person was heard to say "If the old man of the mountain were still standing, he'd be shedding a tear right now". Another man said " It is still standing you idiot". Soon the senate passed HB 7 and then the governor signed as well. While the GFBL car crowd vowed to fight on, after 2 years when it was seen that the whole NH economy did indeed not collapse as had been warned, and people still found great enjoyment using their cars, the "no limits" crowd slowly faded away.




THE END

[Mashugana]

Originally Posted by tupelo

A Brief and Irreverent History of Early Motoring and Speed Limits on NH Highways by tupelo

In the early days of motoring in NH, most cars were small, underpowered and unreliable. Speed limits existed nowhere on NH roads and highways. However by the early 1920's , bigger and better cars, like Duesenbergs, were finding their way onto these roads. Some were capable of doing 65 MPH right through downtown Laconia. They were fast and fun. Accidents occasionally happened but they were few and infrequent. {big snip} By now there was interest in the legislature for establishing speed limits. The house in fact passed this new bill, HB 7. {big snip} While the GFBL car crowd vowed to fight on, after 2 years when it was seen that the whole NH economy did indeed not collapse as had been warned, and people still found great enjoyment using their cars, the "no limits" crowd slowly faded away.
THE END

Nice tale tupelo. It is too bad those early people didn't think smartly enough to establish buffer zones and laws about reasonable speeds. Going slowly over a narrow bridge for instance. Like driving slowly within 15 feet of other cars, buildings and even people. Specially those people stupid enough to walk in the areas regularly traveled by cars going at speeds reasonable and prudent for the circumstances.

They didn't know as much back in those early days as they do today but some people just won't learn. Of course in those very early days 10 mph was considered TO FAST. and 25 mph was like the devil was driving. Some ignorant people refused to even go in such speedy contraptions let alone feel comfortable anywhere near a faster horseless carriage. Boy, we've grown a lot since then.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Skip

Fair enough...my apologies.



NHMP patrols already employ a great many hours of sitting static, closely observing boating traffic. Now some of these static activities will include the use of several radar guns. By the way, expect to see NHMP officers spending more time static this season and in the future.

Why?

Price of fuel. It will actually be the economy that impacts all law enforcement agencies, not just the NHMP, as they alter patrol practices to absorb fuel bills that in some cases have doubled this year with no additional funds allocated to offset the difference.

The economy has already and will continue to also eliminate or slow boating traffic across the Lakes region, regardless of the outcome from HB 847.

But back to the original question. Radar will be rolled in to the already scheduled practice of sitting still while observing. It just gives the officers another tool at their disposal for law enforcement purposes.



My highlight for editorial purposes.

You really need to carefully read the final adopted version of HB 847 including the pertinent ammendments to RSA 270-D:2. Rafting Rules are not governed under the ammended RSA and hence will not be reported to NHDMV in case of a conviction. As a self proclaimed "cynic" that is highly critical of perceived mistakes made by the arguments of your opponents, it is incumbent upon you to have your facts straight. It is apparent by this and other comments you have made that while you remain highly critical of the ramifications of HB 847, you still do not have a firm grasp of what it actually entails.

Started to show up over here last summer Skip. The higher costs of fuel have to be dealt with somehow. I suspect that many MP boats could actually be more successful in their efforts of deterrent just by hanging out in hot spots, static, if you will. It has to be more economical doing radar and observation than the good old days of bombing around the lake on patrol.

The fuel costs may very well prove to be the most important thing that's happened in enforcement on the lake. Perhaps the 150' limit can be more easily observed in congested areas by the MP. Or better yet, perhaps their presence will aid in people abiding by the law.

Rest assured, the fuel used to go very fast will be a deterrent as well.

[Airwaves]

Okay, maybe I'll think of more later...

The language in HB847 makes violations reportable to the NHDMV, do you believe that applies only to Chapter 270-D or the entire Chapter 270?

AW

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Okay, maybe I'll think of more later...

The language in HB847 makes violations reportable to the NHDMV, do you believe that applies only to Chapter 270-D or the entire Chapter 270?

AW

Hi AW,

Only 270-D:2

Interesting sidebar. A very good source has informed me that boating violations have already been routinely reported to the NHDMV. And some of the good folks here have confirmed to me that when they have been "bad", they have subsequently learned that their conviction has appeared on their respective driving record.

Interesting!