06/15/08 Diamond Island Fatality

[twoplustwo]

Who here will not visit the site? You know you will view the site yourselves otherwise your comments of indignation would have appeared earlier. Be honest with yourselves and others.


I have no more interest in viewing the aftermath of this tragedy than I did in reading your description of it. You want honesty? I honestly think you suck.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by twoplustwo

Who here will not visit the site? You know you will view the site yourselves otherwise your comments of indignation would have appeared earlier. Be honest with yourselves and others.


I have no more interest in viewing the aftermath of this tragedy than I did in reading your description of it. You want honesty? I honestly think you suck.

Aptly put.

[sa meredith]

While I feel very badly for all parties involved, and wish that someohow they are all able to get thru such a terrible time, I don't quite understand why people are so upset over the description of the scene. I found it very interesting. I mean, please, do not tell me these same people who are complaining, did not spend 10/12/15 minutes staring at the picture of the boat. Don't tell me you didn't. I don't believe it. Everyone did.
Maybe you disagree with him posting it....but I don't see evil intent. I might even side with you about it being bothersome...but I don't believe the poster put it there with malice in his heart. Go easy....

[MaidenCove07]

I think at this point, enough is known about this accident to say that speed , if even a factor in the crash, was only a "symptom" of the "disease" the driver was afflicted with on that night, at that time...Drunkenness.

No speed limit law, boater driving course, or other governmental interference would have mattered. Blowing a Point 14 says it all - she could have been piloting a dingy and probably would have crashed it into something.

This accident should have had no impact on the speed limit discussion at all, but yahoos at our state capitol, many of whom have never been near the Winni, decided our collective fate out of ignorance, compounded by fear and pity.

So we'll have a speed limit and crashes like this WILL still happen from time to time because some idiots will still drink and boat. THAT'S the issue people should rage up about.

Originally Posted by sa meredith

While I feel very badly for all parties involved, and wish that someohow they are all able to get thru such a terrible time, I don't quite understand why people are so upset over the description of the scene. I found it very interesting. .

I agree....I've known this lake all my life, but find myself being much more cautious and aware of my surroundings...no matter how well I "think" I know the lake, a few feet left or right could leave me with a "rock impression"...maybe that's the one good thing that can come from this horrible tragedy.

To the forum members who've lost friends or relatives because of this, I'm truly sorry.

[pats fan]

Maidencove,
Are you just speculating or has there been an official report that a .14 blood alcohol was determined? I am not saying you are not acurate, I just have not heard anything to support that.

[JDeere]

[quote=MaidenCove07;75109]

I think at this point, enough is known about this accident to say that speed , if even a factor in the crash,

Actually I think speed was the number one cause of the accident and then you add into the equatrion the drinking, and poor visibility. They contributed to the crash but if she had been traveling at 25 MPH I think there is a reasonable chance that the accident would have not had the same consequences.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by MaidenCove07

Actually I think speed was the number one cause of the accident and then you add into the equatrion the drinking, and poor visibility. They contributed to the crash but if she had been traveling at 25 MPH I think there is a reasonable chance that the accident would have not had the same consequences.

We don't know how fast the boat was going yet. But if it was going at 20, 25, 30, the damages and consequences would be pretty bad, if not the same. I think if the boat was traveling even fast than that, the damage hitting a stationary object at hull height
would have been even worse. Only guessing of course. But a 15,000# boat hitting solid rock above water is quite an impact.

My "guess", is that any speed that night would have been dangerous for the conditions. But it might turn out to be something entirely different, distractions, whatever.

[SIKSUKR]

Would you tell me where you got the .14 bac info.I heard just the opposite that there was a .00 bac.

[2Blackdogs]

Even eating an orange will produce a .04 BAC!

Do you mean the BAC was .00 because the investigator's search warrant was rescinded or otherwise defective?

Well this is great, now we have two "Questionable Sources".

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

Even eating an orange will produce a .04 BAC!

Do you mean the BAC was .00 because the investigator's search warrant was rescinded or otherwise defective?

Well this is great, now we have two "Questionable Sources".

Wow, guess I better stop eating oranges for breakfast at work.

[VtSteve]

I guess this is an update of sorts. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Merrill Fay's comments, since he should know more about the outcome at speed than I. Personally, I think hitting a stationary object at 25 or 30 would involve more than bumps or bruises, or maybe Formula's build quality really is that good.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.a...5-9a65f12188b4

"The site of the Lake Winnipesaukee crash, 37-acre Diamond Island, is just off the deepest, central part of the lake where boaters generally speed up, many boaters told The Associated Press. It was pitch black and drizzling the night of the accident, and locals say there was poor visibility.

"If she had run into the island at 25 mph, she would have got bumped around a little, but that's all," said Merrill Fay, who owns Fay's Boat Yard."

[EricP]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I guess this is an update of sorts. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Merrill Fay's comments, since he should know more about the outcome at speed than I. Personally, I think hitting a stationary object at 25 or 30 would involve more than bumps or bruises, or maybe Formula's build quality really is that good.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.a...5-9a65f12188b4

"The site of the Lake Winnipesaukee crash, 37-acre Diamond Island, is just off the deepest, central part of the lake where boaters generally speed up, many boaters told The Associated Press. It was pitch black and drizzling the night of the accident, and locals say there was poor visibility.

"If she had run into the island at 25 mph, she would have got bumped around a little, but that's all," said Merrill Fay, who owns Fay's Boat Yard."

Is Merrill Fay an accident reconstruction specialist? I'll wait until we hear from those doing the investigation before I believe what a competitor says. People need to just wait and quit playing Monday morning quarterbacks.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by EricP

Is Merrill Fay an accident reconstruction specialist? I'll wait until we hear from those doing the investigation before I believe what a competitor says. People need to just wait and quit playing Monday morning quarterbacks.

Didn't mean to offer it up as anything other than face value. I "assumed" he knows more than me about it based on his statement. If he does not, I guess that makes me an arse for copying it. This accident is also interesting for that aspect of it, that of damage and consequences. I personally don;t believe he's right, but at least once before I've been wrong.

No offense meant, just pointing it out.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Didn't mean to offer it up as anything other than face value. I "assumed" he knows more than me about it based on his statement. If he does not, I guess that makes me an arse for copying it. This accident is also interesting for that aspect of it, that of damage and consequences. I personally don;t believe he's right, but at least once before I've been wrong.

No offense meant, just pointing it out.

I'd be willing to rig up an old junker boat to run at 25 mph if old Merrill would be willing to be the test dummy and run it into a wall. I'd be interested to see how bumped up he got, I'm willing to bet he'd end up in the hospital pretty messed up or worse.

[kchace]

I think Mr Fay is wrong. One can easily be killed in a car at 25mph especially if you're not wearing a seat belt. One certainly isn't better protected in a boat.

Check out this damage and report of injury from a 15knot collision.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/archive/10.asp

Ken

[B R]

kchace,

How long did it take you to find that link? probably not long. if some journalist is going to quote fay's marine, don't you think they could have put the same effort in and come to the conclusion that injuries from a 25 mph crash into a granite ledge just might have more than bumps and bruises as a result?

but that's a topic for another thread - poor journalism from the union leader. that may be something we can all agree on.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by kchace

I think Mr Fay is wrong. One can easily be killed in a car at 25mph especially if you're not wearing a seat belt. One certainly isn't better protected in a boat.

Check out this damage and report of injury from a 15knot collision.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/archive/10.asp

Ken

Very similar damage to this accident as well. I'd have to think that hitting that kind of object at any speed would throw everyone forward at a pretty good clip. The results of the accident you linked certainly provide ample proof of that.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

When a passenger on a boat is traveling at 25 mph, they are traveling 88 feet in one second. If the boat stops, the occupant continues to travel at 88 feet per second until something causes them to stop.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

When a passenger on a boat is traveling at 25 mph, they are traveling 88 feet in one second. If the boat stops, the occupant continues to travel at 88 feet per second until something causes them to stop.

Actually, 60 MPH is 88 FPS. 25 MPH works out to 36.67 FPS

I am not expressing any opinion, just pointing out a fact.

Best regards!

R2B

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

Actually, 60 MPH is 88 FPS. 25 MPH works out to 36.67 FPS

I am not expressing any opinion, just pointing out a fact.

Best regards!

R2B

R2B,
Thank you for catching my error. You are correct.
My bad.
RG

[fatlazyless]

Someone noticed in a photograph a dealer's license plate on top of the dashboard, and the lack of bow numbers on the hull. So, how will insurance money get paid out?

Not a happy situation....what a tragedy.......safety pays.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Someone noticed in a photograph a dealer's license plate on top of the dashboard, and the lack of bow numbers on the hull. So, how will insurance money get paid out?

Not a happy situation....what a tragedy.......safety pays.

The same way it would be paid out if the accident involved an auto dealer's demo or inventory vehicle.

[SIKSUKR]

Still waiting to hear where MaidenCove07 got this .14 bac info.You can't just post stuff like that without revealing where this came from.

[VtSteve]

I don't think that's true KTHY66. If memory serves me, post that was pulled had a rather nasty and suggestive personal suggestion for someone in it? Given names were named, I'd have pulled it too.

[kthy66]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Someone noticed in a photograph a dealer's license plate on top of the dashboard, and the lack of bow numbers on the hull. So, how will insurance money get paid out?

Not a happy situation....what a tragedy.......safety pays.

they most likely have an umbrella policy

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by ITD

I'd be willing to rig up an old junker boat to run at 25 mph if old Merrill would be willing to be the test dummy and run it into a wall. I'd be interested to see how bumped up he got, I'm willing to bet he'd end up in the hospital pretty messed up or worse.

I'll offer to hold the camera and bring the popcorn...

Hitting a large, solid wall at 25-30mph will certainly be enough to toss people around and do the type of damage that occured. Boats don't have airbags or seatbelts, and with open cockpits there is nothing to prevent people from bouncing around or flying forward. The link from Kchace below is a perfect example of a low speed accident and how tramatic it can be.

I find MaidenCove07's comment odd, and it definitely should be clarified. Granted I am not in the investigative mix on this, but it was my take that a blood sample was called for the next morning and that she never "blew". Where did such a number come from??? Rumor? Info leak? Squeeky wheel at the hospital???

[EricP]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Didn't mean to offer it up as anything other than face value. I "assumed" he knows more than me about it based on his statement. If he does not, I guess that makes me an arse for copying it. This accident is also interesting for that aspect of it, that of damage and consequences. I personally don;t believe he's right, but at least once before I've been wrong.

No offense meant, just pointing it out.

None taken, my response was a general comment not directed back at you, I apologize if it came across that way.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

...Even eating an orange will produce a .04 BAC!...

Just to make it clear to the reader, the above quote is indeed as absurd as it sounds.

This should be of particular relief to those less than 21, that can be charged with DWI or BWI with a BAC of .02% or greater (and may actually believe it is time to skip a healthy desert or snack).

The next orange is on me.....

[2Blackdogs]

Originally Posted by Skip

Just to make it clear to the reader, the above quote is indeed as absurd as it sounds.

This should be of particular relief to those less than 21, that can be charged with DWI or BWI with a BAC of .02% or greater (and may actually believe it is time to skip a healthy desert or snack).

The next orange is on me.....

Hurrah! This morning, another forum option has been opened up for me!

However, it's not the "edit" button, which could have saved Skip the time and trouble to point out that I'd noticed my decimal error too late. It's .004 BAC for an orange, not .04.

I did find that some apple juices can bump BAC readings up .03 points....All not lost on BWI lawyers, I'm sure.

As to this crash, I'll wager that Merrill Fay hasn't had any dead-stop-wrecks at 30 mph and neither, fortunately, have I.

(I think it's 30 for Diamond Island's terminal velocity).

I'll be happy to leave it to "NHMP professionals" such as Lt. Dunleavy, who has used "2300 rpms" to assuage the arguments of a great many of Winni's reckless boaters.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by MaidenCove07

I think at this point, enough is known about this accident to say that speed , if even a factor in the crash, was only a "symptom" of the "disease" the driver was afflicted with on that night, at that time...Drunkenness.

No speed limit law, boater driving course, or other governmental interference would have mattered. Blowing a Point 14 says it all - she could have been piloting a dingy and probably would have crashed it into something.
.

Again,where did this claim of .14 bac come from.I have not heard this and don't dispute it except I've heard just the opposite.If your going to throw something this damaging out there,you need to back up your post now.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by MaidenCove07

I think at this point, enough is known about this accident to say that speed , if even a factor in the crash, was only a "symptom" of the "disease" the driver was afflicted with on that night, at that time...Drunkenness.

No speed limit law, boater driving course, or other governmental interference would have mattered. Blowing a Point 14 says it all - she could have been piloting a dingy and probably would have crashed it into something.
.

I'm still waiting to hear where MaidenCove got this info about a .14 bac.I don't disagree with some of your points in that post but I still have yet to hear any reference anywhere to the bac you site.Did you just make this up?Why won't you respond?

[VtSteve]

Only two real reasons I suspect

1) just a number to throw out

2) leaked from someone that knew, whoops

if number two, it could have been deleted

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

I'm still waiting to hear where MaidenCove got this info about a .14 bac.I don't disagree with some of your points in that post but I still have yet to hear any reference anywhere to the bac you site.Did you just make this up?Why won't you respond?

I heard from an unnamed source close to the investigation that she was not over the legal limit. Obviously unconfirmed as it has not been made public, just what I heard for what its worth.

I am rather surprised at this point that at least the BAC has not been made public. Either she was or she wasn't, either way it is a fact based on testing, and that cannot be changed.

[Silver Duck]

I've been wondering how Erica's recovery is coming along. I remember that some of our forum members said that they were friends of hers; could any of you give us an update?

Silver Duck

[watrskir]

Originally Posted by twoplustwo

Who here will not visit the site? You know you will view the site yourselves otherwise your comments of indignation would have appeared earlier. Be honest with yourselves and others.


I have no more interest in viewing the aftermath of this tragedy than I did in reading your description of it. You want honesty? I honestly think you suck.

I could not agree more

[sa meredith]

I don't thinkl telling someone they s*** is proper for this board. Although I enjoy aggressive banter, and hard fought debates, saying something so hurtful is just plain wrong. Take a deep breath and count to 10.

[2Blackdogs]

We can't reduce the height and number of islands on Winni, but we can debate reducing dangers on Winni.

This thread is about the Diamond Island collision and the many factors involved including speed. It is placed in the Speed Limits forum for edifying commentary.

Who desires to change the debate so that it becomes irrelevent? This debate can remain just as relevent and dispassionate as the commentary at BoatEd.com. If you can't refrain from an attack on sterile objectivity, why not just butt out?

And thank you, everybody, for NOT calling me a liar.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

We can't reduce the height and number of islands on Winni, but we can debate reducing dangers on Winni.

This thread is about the Diamond Island collision and the many factors involved including speed. It is placed in the Speed Limits forum for edifying commentary.

Who desires to change the debate so that it becomes irrelevent? This debate can remain just as relevent and dispassionate as the commentary at BoatEd.com. If you can't refrain from an attack on sterile objectivity, why not just butt out?

And thank you, everybody, for NOT calling me a liar.

No? Give me a weather report.

Anyway, how about a lighted buoy by the island? Maybe make a bigger one for all those speeders? Why bring up speed limits in each and every post? Just cite statistics, is that a bad thing? Everything involved, including BAL, conditions, wind, malfunctions. Is that everything? Imagine the debate if instead of 28 mph, the 2002 accident was ruled to be 24 mph. Imagine the outrage! Pond scum.

[2Blackdogs]

http://tinyurl.com/6hcpvh

http://tinyurl.com/5nmogz