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03-25-2006, 02:39 PM | #1 |
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Camping on an Island?
Is it possible to set up a tent and camp on any of the islands? I'm an avid camper and love the seclusion you can get on an island.
Thanks for your input Good N' You?
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03-26-2006, 09:09 AM | #2 |
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Tough to do
Skip can verify this, but I believe NH's law still states that if there are not any no-tresspassing signs on a property, you may tresspass. That said, most of the cool islands to camp on are already posted. The best time of year to "get away with it" is spring and fall, where there is nobody around. You could also look up the owner's name on a tax map, and ask permission. During the prime season, I think its safe to say that there are no official camping spots on the lake. To identify any spots in this forum would probably cause the spot to be overused, noticed, and posted....
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03-26-2006, 09:27 AM | #3 |
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You might also consider a couple of the commercial operations that I believe might allow you to pitch a tent. Three Mile Island (owned by Appalachian Mountain Club http://www.3mile.org/ ) and Sandy Island (owned by Boston YMCA http://si.bostonycamps.org/ ).
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03-26-2006, 09:45 AM | #4 |
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I think there is a big difference between walking across property and setting up a tent. If I find somebody pitching a tent on my island property they will get a surprise.
Perhaps they can camp on skip's lawn. |
03-26-2006, 11:44 AM | #5 | |||
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Camping on private property....
Quote:
That said, it is actually quite common to have someone camping on unposted private lands throughout the State, especially in it's less populated areas. A few things to remember: It is always preferable to obtain permission from a landowner prior to partaking of any physical activity on their property, although it is not a requirement under New Hampshire law. When you do partake of an activity on private land, you must leave it as you found it unless you have permission of the landowner to alter the landscape. This means no fires, gathering or taking of firewood, leaving trash, or utilizing private utilities (water, electricity, phone services, etc.). If approached by the landowner you must identify yourself when asked and also vacate the property immediately if told to do same. That is probably the most important point, that you must leave the property immediately if requested to do so by the landowner, his authorized agent or a law enforcement official! You cannot enter the property if it is posted legally, or a legal attempt has been made to post the property and you are obviously aware of this intent. For more information on posting please refer to RSA 635:4 (prescibed manner of posting). Quote:
Quote:
Fortunately for me I have the landowner & government agent role all wrapped up into one, so I can kill two birds with one stone, so to speak! As always, feel free to check with your own personal attorney or your local law enforcement agency about tresspass issues where you live, especially if you are a reader from another State. Skip |
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03-26-2006, 05:57 PM | #6 |
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Thanks everyone for your replies. I figured that about the private islands. But I was hoping there might be some not so public secrets. I will try and contact the YMCA as I am a member of a YMCA near my home. So long as its not posted and there are no homes on the island, is should be legal? I always practice leave it as you found it, so thats shouldn't be an issue.
Thanks again, Good N' You?
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03-26-2006, 11:10 PM | #7 |
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Skip
Where does this common law come into play? It sounds like if you are not "licensed or privileged" then you are breaking the law. I notice that there are many beautiful places on Governors island that never have anybody home. This year I will tie up my boat and pitch a tent. In fact we should have the forumfest at one of those places. If the owner or police show up we just move the party to the next mansion. Somehow I don't think Skip's theory will actually work. It sounds like one of those "you don't need to pay takes because money isn't really legal tender" theories. 635:2 Criminal Trespass. – I. A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place. |
03-27-2006, 04:48 AM | #8 |
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That Quaint "High-Water Mark"
In many locations on Winnipesaukee islands, the "high-water mark" (where Winnipesaukee's reach legally welcomes visitors) can extend 20 feet (or more) inland.
Why not pitch your camp up to that point from the water? |
03-27-2006, 07:30 AM | #9 |
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I got skewered for this in the last thread..
for some of my thoughts on this subject. I look forward to additional viewpoints...
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03-27-2006, 09:53 AM | #10 | |
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The key word above is "knowing", so I put up signs, they get torn down. If I or the police approach them, then they just have to say they didn't know. Of course they have to leave when you ask them. But unless I can prove that they knew, they're not going to jail. This is exactly what will happen to you, depending on which side you're on. If someone camps on your island, you or the Marine Patrol will ask them to leave. They will say they didn't know and didn't see your signs. Then they will leave. If you try your Governors Island idea, a neighbor or a security guard will tell you the same thing, in about a nanosecond. |
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03-27-2006, 10:42 AM | #11 |
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Island Lover, Skip is just educating us on the actual text and interpretation of the law. It isn't Skip's "theory". It's actual NH practice as noted in subsequent posts.
In actual practice, I would agree your point about camping at someone's house or front yard is the extreme and unlikely to happen. But there are hundreds of acres of unposted woods behind my house. On occasion you will find someone camping in there. As long as they leave it as they found it, the owners and neighbors don't seem to mind. |
03-27-2006, 12:20 PM | #12 |
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Common Land on Islands?
Interesting Thread, can someone opine as to how one legally accesses town land on the interior of an island where the shorefront is privately owned? Not that I have that problem.
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03-27-2006, 12:50 PM | #13 |
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Lakes Region Conservatory Trust
This brings up the issue with the Lakes Region Conservatory Trust, who owns the Castle in the Clouds estate. They are very adamant about very limited recreational use of the land. I notice that they are very liberal about posting no trespassing signs around the property. A while ago there was an issue about closing down a main snowmobile corridor that cuts through the land.
I notice that they did the same thing to the Timber Island property. Actually I find the signs more of a huge eyesore, but that is the way it is. I commend the Audobon Society, AMC, and the NH forests society to allow recreational use of the land. Though, it may be limited, they allow hiking so that my children and grandchildren can enjoy nature and what it has to offer. I notice on a couple of occasion, kayakers and canoers camping on the AMC's 3 mile Island. I'm not sure if you are to get permission. Decades ago, kids use to paddle or boat out to remote islands that have no camps on it and 'rough it' for the night. It was a fun and rewarding experience.
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03-27-2006, 12:54 PM | #14 |
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My opinion is that you can't. However I would bet that most land locked property has a right of way somewhere.
If you go along with the "common law" theory then just tie up at any dock that doesn't have a no trespassing sign. |
03-27-2006, 01:04 PM | #15 |
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Right or wrong, I am pretty sure if its not posted "No Trespassing", or fenced, then its fair game. There are rules regarding how to post the "No Trespassing" signs.
Why someone would want to tie up to another persons dock without permission is beyond me. Unless of course there is some sort of emergency. If you really want to get annoying, you can anchor your boat offshore and swim in, set up camp on the beach below the high water mark... We the people own to the high water mark. I think there is a provision that doesn't allow you to impede the enjoyment of the property owner... but he cannot kick you off either. Skip whats the RSA on this? I know we have discussed this here before. Woodsy
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03-27-2006, 01:31 PM | #16 |
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I'm confused here!
Skip seems to have quoted a law that says you need license or permission to be on private property. Yet at the same time he (and others) seem to be saying that its not true. That there is a common law right to be on private property unless its posted. Where is the backup for this common law exception. Is this in writing somewhere, or will I end up telling the judge that I read it on the internet. Because quite frankly I don't think that explanation will fly. |
03-27-2006, 02:32 PM | #17 |
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Skip's theorem on tresspassing.....
Let's see if I can use another source to try an get this concept across. From the official New Hampshire Fish & Game website on the common law concept of open lands in New Hampshire:
...Common law in New Hampshire gives the public the right of access to land that's not posted. You won't find that in state law books, because it is common law, going back to the philosophy of New England's early colonists and supported over the centuries by case law. Our forefathers knew the importance of balancing the need for landowners' rights with that of the public good. On one hand, the landowner can make decisions about his or her land. On the other hand, the public should have limited rights to use and enjoy that land. The colonists held similar democratic notions about rivers, lakes, fish and wildlife. Today, it's easy to take this notion for granted. In New Hampshire and elsewhere in New England, we enjoy a long, proud tradition of public use of private land. This tradition also comes with a risk. A landowner who finds trash, disrespect or other problems can easily decide to post his or her land. Residents of some Western states find this notion of private land/public use very strange. Hunters in some states pay hundreds of dollars in annual fees to landowners to hunt their lands. It's just another cost of hunting. Other states have what's called reverse posting. Access is limited to land that's specifically posted for that use. If it's not posted, you can't go on it... Yeah yeah I know....some of you will say that Fish & Game doesn't know what it's talking about either, but then there's nothing I can do about that... Anyway, as some of you have already figured out, I developed my theory on tresspass law way back (boy, am I dating myself!) at the New Hampshire 48th Police Academy, and my theory has held up quite well these past several decades as I have never lost a tresspass case in court....albeit it is not one of those statutes that I enforce too many times. Some of you are misinterpreting the statue by reading it out of context....a dangerous mistake commonly made by non-law/law enforcement individuals. As correctly pointed out by several previous posters, the State must show you were not "licensed or privileged" to be where you were to prove tresspass. Since RSA 635:2 is either a misdemeanor or felony offense, the State must also prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you "knowingly" tresspassed. For you budding attorneys or law enforcement types out there, this means the State must prove the culpable state of mind of "knowingly", a not so easy task. So what does "licensed or privileged" mean? Let me give an extreme case of "licensed", since hyperbole seems to be the theme here with other examples. Let's say you pitched your tent in the fenced off garden section of your local Walmart at midnight (and you are not an employee). Likewise, you pitched your tent in the closed and fenced swimming pool of a local hotel, and you are not a guest...not privileged. Another common example, you have been previously warned by court order, verifiable legal document or previous documented landowner/law enforcement warning. And then there's the obvious, you clearly crossed onto posted property without permission. Bottom line....if you pitch a tent, blueberry, birdwatch, hunt, fish, butterfly, hike, and so on & so on, on non-posted private property (and you have not been told to leave) and you do not disturb the land that you are on, you are not tresspassing in New Hampshire and will not be arrested. In some cases you will be asked to leave, and I truly believe that may be the case in the original poster's case, and you will definitely be told not to come back - but you will not be arrested (unless you refuse to leave, of course). As usual, please call Fish & Game, your local law enforcement agency (my hat is off to you JRC for doing the right thing and getting the correct information)and your family attorney if in doubt. That said, I stand on my interpretation of RSA 635:2 and invite anyone who would like to discuss this issue further to please feel free to PM me anytime.... Skip Important p.s. ! For those of you confused or doubting if New Hampshire practices recognizes the doctrine of common law....from the introductory page of the New Hampshire Attorney General's website (the highlight is courtesy of me): The mission of the department is to serve the people of New Hampshire with diligence, independence and integrity by performing the constitutional, statutory and common law duties of the Attorney General as the State's chief legal officer and chief law enforcement officer; Last edited by Skip; 03-27-2006 at 03:28 PM. |
03-27-2006, 04:14 PM | #18 |
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along the same lines
How about a boater floating up and picking all "your" blueberries?
Because they are in the water, is it legal? Can I post no tresspassing/no pciking signs and where is the proper place, on the bushes or on a stake in the water? |
03-27-2006, 04:33 PM | #19 | |
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Blueberries!
Quote:
Anyway, here's the RSA on signage: TITLE LXII CRIMINAL CODE CHAPTER 635 UNAUTHORIZED ENTRIES Section 635:4 635:4 Prescribed Manner of Posting. – A person may post his land to prohibit criminal trespass and physical activities by posting signs of durable material with any words describing the physical activity prohibited, such as "No Hunting or Trespassing", printed with block letters no less than 2 inches in height, and with the name and address of the owner or lessee of such land. Such signs shall be posted not more than 100 yards apart on all sides and shall also be posted at gates, bars and commonly used entrances. This section shall not prevent any owner from adding to the language required by this section. Source. 1977, 284:1, eff. Aug. 21, 1977. |
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03-27-2006, 07:43 PM | #20 |
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I have to sympathize with the property owners on this one; common law is one thing, common decency is another.
I can't imagine having the chutzpah to just pitch a tent on someone else's property! I know that NH is less lawsuit-happy than MA, but wouldn't allowing strangers to use one's property casually open one up to the possibility of being sued if a person doing so was injured? Personally, the only way I'd ever step ashore other than on public property is if my boat sank out from under me and I had to get ashore to save my life! Silver Duck |
03-27-2006, 08:02 PM | #21 | |
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Liability issues....
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Remember, in NH it is not you allowing strangers access, but the common law beliefs held by the State's courts. However, you must always be cognizant of hazards and "attractive nuisances" on your property, and your liability should someone be injured. Two easy examples....an old open well that someone could fall in to, or an in-ground pool not properly fenced off. There are many examples over the years of tragedies involving these two common hazards resulting in liability for a property owner. Again, there is a wealth of information on the NH Fish & Game website on the open land concepts and liabilities that can be incurred by landowners, along with suggestions to minimize these risks. The F&G site is excelent reading for anyone interested in the State's great outdoors, whether you are a sportsman (or woman) or not.... Check it out! Skip |
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03-27-2006, 08:06 PM | #22 |
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Overnight
Wouldn't you also run into a problem with the "No Overnight Anchoring" law?
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03-27-2006, 08:13 PM | #23 | |
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Bear Lover...you can't be confused!
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Back a year or two ago we were all exploring the concept of waterfront littoral rights. You were adamant in the concept of your littoral right to the waterfront at your home. You even correctly cited the case of Sundell v. Town of New London 119 NH 839..... The littoral right to usage of the water in front of your home is based on the same common law concept that allows people in New Hampshire to freely roam private properties within reason! The case you cite, Sundell v. Town of New London was based on common law! So see, the concept is really not that hard to find, or understand! Amazing, isn't it??? Anyway, when you really get bored....head on down to the legal section of your local library and peruse State v. Wentworth 118 NH 832. Yep, it's dry reading and concerns a boring anti-nuke case out of the Town of Seabrook, but it does have a neat interpretation explaining the concept of "licensed or privileged" and goes into detail about culpable state of mind! Save it for a rainy day though...... Skip |
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03-27-2006, 08:24 PM | #24 | |
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Err, overnight....houseboat rule????
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'Nuff said about that one, I could get tarred and feathered if I offered my unfettered opinion about that particular piece off legislation, except to offer that it really needs to be revisited if enforcement becomes a problem....to which I understand it is not a problem to date. I'll give you a hint, the key to the discrepancy here is the legal definition of the term "houseboat" and how it plays into the related RSAs....that said, you're on your own to figure out the rest! Skip |
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03-27-2006, 10:28 PM | #25 |
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My family has property in Southern NH in an isolated area. I remember we tried to post it for several years because people were going onto the property and leaving it a mess. (beer cans etc)
The problem is they just ripped down the signs and suddenly the property was no longer "posted" and it was legal for them to party on! We eventually just gave up and converted it into income producing property instead of just leaving it to the wildlife (human and otherwise) |
03-27-2006, 11:00 PM | #26 |
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Camping on an island
In the spring, sometime in the early 1980's (has it really been that long!?), four of us camped out on one of the small islands in the southern part of the lake. It was one of the more memorable camping trips I've been on. We pulled the boat up on a small sandy beach and pitched a tent about 50 feet back from the shoreline. We used a fuel stove for cooking and had a small camp fire in a fire pit that we found. In the morning, there was a series of weird loud noises. We woke up to see a bunch of hot-air balloons floating by, 100 feet or so above the water. After breakfast, we cleaned up all evidence that we had been there and left. Nobody else was on the island, and we never got close to the only house that was there. Camping like that is special, and if you are going to do it, you should respect the land you are using, and the tradition of not spoiling it for others. If you get caught, there is a 50/50 chance you will have to leave - but if you are careful, they will never know. Getting away with it is part of the fun - at least it was for us.
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03-28-2006, 07:02 AM | #27 |
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Before "Great Adventure" there was...
Back in the Pleistocene era, three of us kids put two 5-horsepower Johnsons on a ten-foot wooden rowboat of mine, and camped on the Broads side of Rattlesnake Island. (Two engines for the added security in such an adventure, of course).
No docks, no camps, no campers, no signs, no houses! And no rattlesnakes...dangit! BTW: The signs stating "Private" back then...were postcard-sized. |
03-28-2006, 07:53 AM | #28 |
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We owned a small island on the lake and had the same problem jrc and airwaves referred to. Beer cans, soda cans, underwear. We always ended up bringing a garbage bad full of trash home. Using the path as a bathroom. Almost every time we went there, there were people using it. Most were very arrogant some even told us they had persmission from the owner to use it! If someone was coming in at the same time we were, they would try to get there faster to "stake their claim". They ignored us until we asked them to leave. We posted it repeatedly and they tore the signs down. We wrote " No trespassing" all over the dock. Our neighbor on an adjoining island called us one day to tell us people were having so many fires there, he was afraid they were going to burn the island down. We got so frustrated, we sold it. Sadly, this is why you can't let other people enjoy your property.
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03-28-2006, 10:50 PM | #29 | |
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Quote:
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03-29-2006, 11:10 PM | #30 |
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Well poison ivy will ruin it for the owner as well as the uninvited visitor. If you think underwear is strange, I've found a complete bedroom set, several exercise machines, car batteries, an empty oil drum, beer cans, a wine bottle, lots of spring water bottles and the worst, condoms.
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03-30-2006, 06:38 AM | #31 | |
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03-30-2006, 03:37 PM | #32 | |
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03-30-2006, 09:04 PM | #33 | |
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Its in the water
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04-04-2006, 07:18 AM | #34 |
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Try Squam
We camped on an island on Squam, and it was a FANTASTIC experience. Maintained sites, some with platforms, porta potties (in rustic shelters), etc.
We highly recommend it. http://www.squamlakes.org/sla/camping.htm |
04-10-2006, 01:34 PM | #35 |
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Island Camping
With regards to the original question psoted in this thread, try contacting the Squam Lakes Association. I believe they rent primitive campsites on two islands in Squam Lake (and canoes to get there as well.)
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04-10-2006, 05:34 PM | #36 | |
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Broadhopper -- I think if you look closely at the Castle in the Clouds property you will find that those signs relate to when hunting is and isn't permitted, and that they are not No Trespassing signs. As for Timber Island, it's my understanding that the Trust holds only a conservation easement on the property, meaning that it remains privately owned by other parties who have the right to control access. |
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05-03-2008, 10:08 AM | #37 | |
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all islands are private
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05-08-2008, 12:46 PM | #38 | |
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Quote:
"take your life in your hands" come on lighten up, no ones going kill you for camping on their island. They will ask you to leave and escalate to calling the MP but unless you're threatening them or camping in their living room they ain't going to kill you. Unless it's posted, the worst that can happen is that you are asked to leave. If it is posted, you can be fined. You can't kill someone for tresspassing. |
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05-09-2008, 06:31 AM | #39 |
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better wait 'till Fall......
.....or be comfortable tenting in about 6 inches of water!
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05-09-2008, 10:16 AM | #40 |
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Winni is my favorite place to boat, but if you want to try other waters so you can camp on an island, check the KOA books or even a road atlas. About 10 years ago I took a trip to Champlain and there were several islands listed in one of the guides, as having public camping. At least one of those was a state park.
Unfortunatly, I had an "engine casualty" and had to cut the trip short after just one long day. FYI, if you ever have the opportunity to camp on a river island bring ear-plugs. It suprised me how much noise the Merrimack River can make! Good luck! |
05-09-2008, 10:28 AM | #41 | |
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Quote:
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05-09-2008, 03:05 PM | #42 |
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My grandparents used to own one of the small islands opposite the Budweiser brewery in Merrimack. I believe they technicaly belong to the Hudson water department now because they bought the land 20 years ago for a pumping station that has never been built. |
05-11-2008, 12:09 AM | #43 |
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Gotcha...Cool!
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05-11-2008, 07:21 AM | #44 | |
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Island Life the way my grandparents' grandparents enjoyed it - but with a faster boat!!! |
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05-11-2008, 01:44 PM | #45 | |
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05-11-2008, 08:12 PM | #46 |
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A friend of mine took some pictures of kids attempting to jump snow mobiles across a large ditch in his back yard then asked them to take a hike. A few hours later the parent arrived demanding that he delete the picture from his camera. No apology and I am sure no lesson for the kid.
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05-12-2008, 06:36 AM | #47 | |
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