The Meredith News Editorial AGAINST speed limit

ITD · 02-10-2008, 10:53 AM

It seems there has been a change in staff over at The Meredith News. The informative, accurate, well written editorial

speaks out against the speed limit on the lake. I provide a link here but the site requires a subscription. http://www.meredithnhnews.com/ (scroll to bottom for beginning of editorial)

Anyway, the editorial speaks of a "solution looking for a problem" and discusses the unenforceability of the law. It also advocates for an "initiative to actually enforce laws that are already in effect;" as a more effective safety measure than an ill conceived (my words) speed limit.

The editorial points out the bill's precarious situation due to the fact that Gov. Lynch has said he may not sign it into law. I don't trust that Gov. Lynch will not sign the bill. The paranoid side of me thinks that this may be a ploy to get the Senate to pass the buck, hoping that the Gov. will not sign the bill if it gets to him, taking the political heat. I think the Gov. will sign the bill if he gets it and I urge the Senate to defeat this bill when they get it.

Good paper that Meredith News, lots of local stories......

fatlazyless · 02-10-2008, 11:04 AM

And what do Irwin Marine, Lakeport Landing, HK Motorsports, Shep Brown's Boat Basin, Channel Marine, Thurston's Marine, Glendale Marine, Paugus Bay Marine, Silver Sands, & Meredith Marine all have in common. They all buy advertising in the Meredith News or one of its' sister newspapers like the Gilford Steamer.

Does the Meredith News know who is buttering their bread? What do you think?

........

236-111 ..........14-10........hut-hut-hut............hike!!!

ITD · 02-10-2008, 11:22 AM

Are you insinuating bias in the media???? Huh????? I'm shocked I tell you, SHOCKED!!!!!!!

Bear Islander · 02-10-2008, 11:54 AM

"....hopefully will be defeated based on its numerous flaws, the chief one being that it is unenforceable. Proponents claim that marine patrol could use radar guns to accurately track boat speeds. Last summer, Salmon Press actually went out on the water to test this theory, with the help of the Gilford Police Department, and found that the radar guns almost always inaccurately clocked the test boat's speed,..."

So it seems the Meredith News thinks the data collected by the MP in the speed zones last summer are invalid.

Just pointing out one of those "you can't have it both ways" things.

The other one I like is that "the speed study shows nobody is speeding". Contrasted with "enforcement will be impossible, cost a fortune, ruin the economy.

fatlazyless · 02-10-2008, 12:04 PM

Well, like everyone else, the newspapers get a monthly electric, heating & property tax bill, and the money has to come from somewhere.

Basically, every newspaper is biased and it's been that way forever. It's called reading between the lines, or something. As Lord Ashton (England 1887) said in another thread, "All power corrupts, and all power currupts absolutely!"

Meredith is fortunate to have three local papers, the Meredith News, the Laconia Daily Sun, and the Laconia Citizen. Local newspapers coexisting in the same market is a good thing for their readers and advertisers. Just look what's happened to fm radio, nation-wide. And to think that New Hampshire public radio used to be almost all classical music. If any one media can be held responsible for NH's turning from red to blue, it's got to be Radio NHPR and Garrison Keillor's 'Prairie Home Companion.'

........
Today's www.cmonitor.com features 'Evenstar - Arwen' in a long article. She has contributed a lot of compelling, long distance, kayak posts which are probably news to many of the boaters that read this forum.. Like, If New Hampshire just had the Union Leader we'd all be thinking, just scream 'live free or die' and that's the answer for everything.....good grief.

ITD · 02-10-2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

"....hopefully will be defeated based on its numerous flaws, the chief one being that it is unenforceable. Proponents claim that marine patrol could use radar guns to accurately track boat speeds. Last summer, Salmon Press actually went out on the water to test this theory, with the help of the Gilford Police Department, and found that the radar guns almost always inaccurately clocked the test boat's speed,..."

So it seems the Meredith News thinks the data collected by the MP in the speed zones last summer are invalid.

Just pointing out one of those "you can't have it both ways" things.

The other one I like is that "the speed study shows nobody is speeding". Contrasted with "enforcement will be impossible, cost a fortune, ruin the economy.

That would fall under discussion of unenforceability of the law. At this point I would also bring up APS' point of "unpaid volunteers", except in this case (Salmon press) one could argue true neophytes attempting to operate in a totally unfamiliar environment. For the record, I don't want it both ways. If I accept your arguement at face value BI as you obviously do, I would point out the ludicrousness of a speed limit that can't be enforced and fire right back at ya " You can't have it both ways..."

Certainly the arguements against the speed limit far outweigh the arguements for it.

Less, you can blame NHPR, I blame the mass exodus of Mass. liberals from the hellhole they created down here, to the "red state" heaven up north. You're right though, times are a changin'. I wonder where they'll go when NH is wrecked?????!

Bear Islander · 02-10-2008, 12:54 PM

If they are "true neophytes attempting to operate in a totally unfamiliar environment" then their opinions of the need for speed limits are equally suspect.

ITD · 02-10-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If they are "true neophytes attempting to operate in a totally unfamiliar environment" then their opinions of the need for speed limits are equally suspect.

Ah, but that is how I would classify you in the same situation, so that would make your opinions suspect also....

Airwaves · 02-10-2008, 02:36 PM

Okay BI, here are some stats for you to enjoy

First, the 2006 NEW HAMPSHIRE boating stats! Goodness, it appears to have already been posted (and ignored by supporters of speed limits) on this very forum by Woodsy!
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=4283

Now, how about those Coast Guard stats for 2006 whose summary you quoted? The state by state breakout starts on page 23.

http://uscgboating.org/statistics/Bo...stics_2006.pdf

Now go ahead and cross reference the two documents. 5 of the 6 fatals in NH were drownings, 2 when boats sank and 3 while jumping or falling off a boat. The 6th was a hit and run on Goose Pond!

There was ONE accident on Lake Winnipesaukee at a speed over the limit proposed by HB 847. A person on a Personal Water Craft fell while doing 49mph. There was a second incident listed as Excessive Speed during a sharp turn.

Gee, you mean the Marine Patrol actually uses the Excessive Speed for the conditions regulation? I thought you speed limit advocates said it was too vague???

So where are all the speeding Go Fast boats that are sending you into a panic and making Winnipesaukee the most dangerous body of water on the planet????

Looks like they are boating safely and enjoying themselves.

The Marine Patrol did research and found that less than 1% of the boats they clocked were above the proposed limits and certainly none were operating in a dangerous or negligent manner or they would have been arrested.

The only fear on Lake Winnipesaukee is the fear that has been artificially generated by Winnfabs and the "get the Go Fast boats off our lake" crowd.

jrc · 02-10-2008, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

........
Today's www.cmonitor.com features 'Evenstar - Arwen' in a long article. She has contributed a lot of compelling, long distance, kayak posts which are probably news to many of the boaters that read this forum...

Did I miss the part where Evenstar claimed to be Arwen or vice versa? I mean sure there's some overlap in towns and sports but it's a pretty big jump to make, unless I missed something.

codeman671 · 02-10-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Did I miss the part where Evenstar claimed to be Arwen or vice versa? I mean sure there's some overlap in towns and sports but it's a pretty big jump to make, unless I missed something.

Evenstar is Arwen. I can vouch for that. I have never met her but assure you they are the same.

Dave R · 02-10-2008, 04:16 PM

Arwen Evenstar is a character in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. She's the elf played by Liv Tyler in the movie. The odds of "Arwen" not being "Evenstar" are pretty slim. I don't think she's trying to hide her Internet identity by calling herself one or the other. It's not like those are obscure books...

fatlazyless · 02-10-2008, 04:42 PM

Buried somewhere in all her posts, she says her name is Arwen, an unusual name, and probably more than once, and I remembered that. What the heck, the Concord Monitor doesn't publish a big. long, Sunday, front-page. article like that, without the person's permission. Being stuck inside on a snowy-blowy day, waiting for a flag to fly out on the ice, I took a gander at the Concord Monitor. Small world,New Hampshire.

In full disclosure, I confess to being a local loser, and all-around knucklehead......but the speed limits will still soon be THE LAW anyway.....so there.....cheers!

hey Arwen......great posts.....keep on paddlin'.....& may the force be with you!

jrc · 02-10-2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

Arwen Evenstar is a character in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. She's the elf played by Liv Tyler in the movie. The odds of "Arwen" not being "Evenstar" are pretty slim. I don't think she's trying to hide her Internet identity by calling herself one or the other. It's not like those are obscure books...

I recognized Arwen from the movies, I read the books in high school, in the 70's. The Hobbit was required reading and many followed up with the Rings. I forgot that she even had a last name.

So it's pretty well corroborated, absent denial from Evenstar, I believe they are one and the same.

I don't pretend to understand it, but that's one hell of a story.

Evenstar · 02-10-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

So it's pretty well corroborated, absent denial from Evenstar, I believe they are one and the same.

I don't pretend to understand it, but that's one hell of a story.

The story in the Monitor was about me. My middle name is actually Eve, which is short for Evenstar.

Hey, I still don't understand all this myself - I may never understand it completely.

Melanie (the reporter) covered my graduation from NHTI last May and contacted my through the NH Senate, where I was working as an intern. We met several times over the summer and I basically told her everything that I knew, which she then verified by contacting my doctors and my best friend. She call my at my university last week and we finished the story over a long telephone conversation.

I felt that I could trust Melanie to be sensitive about the way that my story was written, as I didn't want it to be sensationalized, and I didn't want anyone hurt by it. What happened to me is extremely complicated, which made Melanie's job really difficult. I think she did a great job. She wants to try kayaking, so we're planning to get together this summer - probably on Squam.

This was really hard for me to do, as I hate feeling like "exhibit A". But I'm hoping that what happened to me might somehow help others who are going through very difficult times in their own lives.

RE: fatlazyless: My best friend often tells me to "use the force" when I can't figure out how to do something. She says it's from some popular movie. "The Force" for me is my instincts - which seem to have worked extremely well in getting through the unknown here.

fatlazyless · 02-10-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

that's one hell of a story.

Yeah, it certainly is, and with a human interest story like this added into the speeds limits mix, the 14D-10R NH State Senate will probably be voting 20-4, instead of 16-8, or so. You can argue the 150' rule from now till doomsday, but this new angle makes it almost as good as a Hitchcock movie. Hey, those patriots may have lost by 17-14, but the speed limits will be winning by 20-4. How can it lose, now? Better be calling your bookie for a change-order, now.

We win, you lose, it's over, capiche! The good guys win!

Cal · 02-10-2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

We win, you lose, it's over, capiche! The good guys win!

And if this is any preview of what will happen IF it passes , they will be as poor of winner as they were poor losers last time

LIforrelaxin · 02-10-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evenstar

This was really hard for me to do, as I hate feeling like "exhibit A". But I'm hoping that what happened to me might somehow help others who are going through very difficult times in their own lives.

.

Some times the hardest things to do are the ones that pay the most dividends. I hope that by telling your story, you find some more inner peace. I for one commend you for telling your story.

Not even in the same ballpark as far as severity, but I suffer from a life long anxiety issue, which I have always been able to hide. Very few people have ever known. However I find the older I get and the more people I tell the easier things get on me....the people that know, see the slight difference in my attitude, and are always helping me out.

I hope as life moves on for you, acceptance becomes more and more the norm for you.....

CanisLupusArctos · 02-10-2008, 10:52 PM

I still think the increased boating problems (i.e. Capt. Bonehead) that we're seeing on this lake are just one manifestation of a society-wide problem made of materialism, greed, and loss of respect for others.

Going through elementary school in the 1980s (in the Boston area) I remember a lot of emphasis on respect for others. I had teachers as late as high school who drilled it into us that if you worked hard and achieved success but you weren't nice, you were still going to sit in detention with the usual punks.

Now I have various friends whose kids are going to elementary school and have neighbors whose kids are in high school, and they're being taught that 'getting ahead' is everything. Step on toes if you have to, anything to get ahead. What's out there is yours for the taking and if you work hard, you deserve it, so go get it.

Respect for others? That's a quaint idea we don't practice anymore, because it gets in the way. Respect has been replaced by this other thing called "tolerance" whose main focus is 'don't offend people who are different from you.' The respect that my class learned in the 80s was to be extended to all people, whether they were different or the same. We had minorities join our class over the years, and nobody thought anything of it because we were never taught about differences; we were just taught to respect others no matter what.

The real 'gotcha' in this? All this much change, in just 20 years. I didn't think I'd be talking like this ("When I was a boy...") until I had gray hair. But things are changing so fast. Even 5 years ago was noticeably different from today.

As it stands now, greed/arrogance and the "get ahead at all costs" mentality is becoming a disease. The song by Nickleback "We all just wanna be big rock stars..." (which we can hear on WLNH at least once a day) reflects this new culture we have.

And if we are all big rock stars (in our heads, if nowhere else), we can ignore other people as we drive around the lake in our rock-star boats, behaving like Britney, Lindsay, and Paris as we flip off all the "inferior" boaters around us. After all, we worked hard, so we deserve this vacation.

Now if only the politicians would catch on. Too bad they're busy catering to it instead. Listen to speeches made by either party, and there's a huge focus on "Ask what your country can do for you! If you elect me President, your country will do more for you!"

Therefore I feel this mentality, not lack of laws, is the real problem. Both parties are making it worse. Today's Republican Party too often approaches problems by saying "There is no problem" while the Democrats say "More laws can fix this problem."

Nobody looks at the fact that the condition of the human heart is what needs changing, and that can only happen if we start teaching "respect for others comes before material gain for yourself" once more. This, I believe, would solve our lake boating problems, and probably many more.

LIforrelaxin · 02-10-2008, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

I still think the increased boating problems (i.e. Capt. Bonehead) that we're seeing on this lake are just one manifestation of a society-wide problem made of materialism, greed, and loss of respect for others.

CLA you hit the nail on the head..... materialism, greed..... are the qualities that are going are causing a moral deteriation in this country..... the other thing that doesn't help is people no longer look at things as a privlege.....

Airwaves · 02-11-2008, 12:50 AM

Wolfman, while you are aboslutely correct nothing is going to change. Are you going to give up your gains in life? I'm not.

SPEED LIMITS ON WINNIPESAUKEE

This is not a Democrat vs Republican issue. As the late Tip O'Neil once accurately said, all politics is local...My voters say X then I vote X or have to explain myself...explanifications are difficult

This issue is about a group of folks, some property owners on Lake Winnipesaukee, that initially thought they saw a problem and tried to address it. Unfortunately for them the facts did not back up their efforts (In my opinion) but they are to the point where backing down is not an option.

When those folks started their campaign it encouraged "us" to look at what they were saying and defend our actions. Fortunately for "us" our actions do not rise to the level that "they" contend is a problem. (Again, in my opinion)

I suggest that both sides back off! The Pro and Con side take a break and NH Legislators stand down and wait. Why?

2008 is the first year that all boaters in NH are required to have passed a safe boating certificate course. That means, for the first time in the boating history of Lake Winnipesaukee and the State of NH, all boaters will have been certified.

Let's see what happens.

Airwaves, Out

Dave R · 02-11-2008, 07:59 AM

Not a Nickleback fan, (unless the offense is in shotgun with three+ wide, and down two touchdowns), but I think that Rocks Star song is supposed to be tongue in cheek.

Bear Islander · 02-11-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

I still think the increased boating problems (i.e. Capt. Bonehead) that we're seeing on this lake are just one manifestation of a society-wide problem made of materialism, greed, and loss of respect for others.

You are so right!

The question is what do we do about Capt. Bonehead. It's almost impossible to change him. You can make him take a safe boating class but how much will sink in. Plus he can get a certificate on line by using an out of state address. He shouldn't be able to, but he can.

If we can't fix the Capt. is there any way we can make Winnipesaukee less attractive to him? Something that might make him and his kind not come here in the first place? . . . . Let's think.

ITD · 02-11-2008, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

You are so right!

The question is what do we do about Capt. Bonehead. It's almost impossible to change him. You can make him take a safe boating class but how much will sink in. Plus he can get a certificate on line by using an out of state address. He shouldn't be able to, but he can.

If we can't fix the Capt. is there any way we can make Winnipesaukee less attractive to him? Something that might make him and his kind not come here in the first place? . . . . Let's think.

Ok, let's think,

Capt B ignores the rules,

Noise rules, he ignores those
Right of way rules, ignores those
no wake zones, ignores those
150 ft rule, ignores those
common sense, he doesn't have any

So how do we fix this?

The proposal in front of the senate is a speed limit. A speed limit that as pointed out by several vocal proponents is UNENFORCEABLE.

So, if the SL passes we can add it to the list:

Speed limit, unenforceable, Capt B. will ignore and laugh........

fatlazyless · 02-11-2008, 08:56 AM

More immediately, my sources tell me that WinnFabs was helpfull in getting Evenstar hired as a NH State Senate infilitrator.......oops.......make that....as a NH State Senate intern.....and that 19 senators all want those little 'kayak paddle' lapel buttons for their lapels,.

"Lose the need for speed, go eat some granola!."

froggy · 02-11-2008, 08:57 AM

CLA is exactly correct - the lack of respect is everywhere, not just in boating.
The roads, the ski slopes, and on and on.
I've been skiing since the 50's, but I don't enjoy it any longer with the lack of respect on the slopes; have not skied in three years cuz.....!

The highways are equally bad; in my driver ed, we were taught to travel right and pass on left! The reverse happens now. Signs are gone that used to depict the rules. In Europe you'd receive large fines for not traveling right. Even law enforcement vehicles disobey "rules of the road"!

Boaters: again, I grew up in a boating family and we respected others on the water. Some new boaters think "they own it all". The marinas "sell" the boats with no orientation to operation and/safety.

It all comes to the lack of respect & common sense.

PS: "Just ANOTHER ...... TAXPAYER that is NOT allowed to VOTE!"
This phrase is everywhere: not just NH; Vail, CO second home owner who resides in CA or TX. Cape Cod cottage owner, who resides in NYC! MD or NJ shore second home owner who resides in VA or Wash, DC. It's all over! Give me a break!

Island Girl · 02-11-2008, 10:16 AM

Passing on the right has been lawful for many years... as long as you are on a divided roadway.

Skip · 02-11-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

More immediately, my sources tell me that WinnFabs was helpfull in getting Evenstar hired as a NH State Senate infilitrator.......oops.......make that....as a NH State Senate intern.....and that 19 senators all want those little 'kayak paddle' lapel buttons for their lapels,.

"Lose the need for speed, go eat some granola!."

I am not sure how Evenstar's personal life is germane to these threads.

I think it would be appropriate for us to get back on topic and if Evenstar's life is pertinent for discussion it should be based on her decision and in an appropriate forum.

Otherwise we should recognize and respect her right to privacy.

Dave R · 02-11-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If we can't fix the Capt. is there any way we can make Winnipesaukee less attractive to him? Something that might make him and his kind not come here in the first place? . . . . Let's think.

Well, speed limit supporters want us to think that the fast boats are keeping the family boaters away. Most Capt. Boneheads are at the helm of the typical family boat, so if you believe speed limit supporters, encouraging more fast boats would tend to reduce the Capt. Boneheads.

I'd be willing to bet that if indeed there are folks that are afraid of boating on Winnipesaukee, these frightened people ARE Capt. Boneheads.

Bear Islander · 02-11-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

Ok, let's think,

Capt B ignores the rules,

Noise rules, he ignores those
Right of way rules, ignores those
no wake zones, ignores those
150 ft rule, ignores those
common sense, he doesn't have any

So how do we fix this?

The proposal in front of the senate is a speed limit. A speed limit that as pointed out by several vocal proponents is UNENFORCEABLE.

So, if the SL passes we can add it to the list:

Speed limit, unenforceable, Capt B. will ignore and laugh........

We need to find out how they DO enforce them on other lakes.

If the Capt. ignores a little he may get away with it. If he ignores it a lot, he will stand in front of a judge. Even Boneheads wake up and stop laughing then.

JayDV · 02-11-2008, 12:42 PM

It sounds like most of us are in agreement about a few basic things:

1) Many people in today's society display and/or practice a lack of respect for others, their rights, properties or rules and laws.

2) Some of those people share boating priveleges with people that go above and beyond safe boating practices and cause some of them to be afraid.

3) There are several documented instances where poor boating skills or flagrant disrespect of the laws caused serious property and bodily damage or worse, loss of life.

4) Many of the existing rules/laws are difficult to enforce due to manpower, cost, weather conditions or boating traffic.

5) If enforcement officers were visible, then boaters would more than likely obey the boating rules/laws as written in the boating handbook.

The above is basic and I tried to cover all aspects. Obviously I might have mis-stated some things.

This one I am throwing in: At what point is "speeding" speeding? Would jack rabbit acceleration to just above the limit then backing off speeding (like water skiing where you can travel more than headway speed within 150 ft of land)? Is speeding like the old turnpike ticket tolls where you get your card at time X and if you cross given exit by time X+"y" you were speeding? But if you travel 100 mph and stop for coffee before you get to the exit are you still speeding?

Given the above, I still think the time has arrived for technical solutions.

I was watching a Discovery Channel show on Sharks and how they tag them with transmitters to track the sharks' life of wanderings. The group also drops "receivers" around the area that record the shark's tag data everytime it comes within 1/4 mile of the "receiver". This information can be uploaded to a passing "data collector" station and stored for data queries later.
This scenario could be applied to lakes as well. The sharks could be all boats registered to be on NH waterways. In addition to the "receivers" dropped throughout the lake there could be receiver/transmitter sensors mounted atop buoys.

With this equipment in place the computers could work 24 hrs a day gathering data. The types of data could be modified later but could range from boat registration # (or not), boat activity (speed, proximity to other boats/land) to weather and water information. Then with all the information gathered, decisions could be made about deciding where problem areas may exist (excessive speeds for narrow waterways, close proximity to public swimming areas, scheduled sanctioned events, activities of existing businesses, camps, etc.). The above mentioned excessive speeds would be monitored by boats passing the buoys and the times recorded much the same as the highway patrol monitors speeders by timing the vehicles between markings on the highways.

When areas become identified, then rules could be placed on those areas. Maybe Bizer maps or color-coded buoys would be the way to get the info out to the boaters. With this kind of 24/7 monitoring going on, then everyone would know that their boating manners are being watched.

Once the equipment is in place, the uses could be expanded or reduced. After a reasonable data gathering period of time then it could be decided whether limits need to be in place and what they should be. The buoy-top sensors can scan passing craft to verify they have registered sensors or notify marine patrol of boater equipment malfunction for spot checks. These can be set up for yearly re-evaluation based on the running historical data. Severe problem areas would warrant patrol officers present. Otherwise, the marine patrol lake personnel could stay as it is.

The information would be collected by impartial outside agency who would be audited by a state committee. The NH Dept of Safety would control the data queries and make requests available to general public.

All of this may be a bit involved, but look at all the debate over statistic gathering or which group has more political clout, or even naming pulic personnel and questioning their integrities? We know computers can work 24/7. We know facts don't lie. We trust computers to do a lot more than I've listed here. And as far as the Bib Bro fear, we know the technical equipment the Gov't uses is far more advanced than what the general public is allowed to have, but imagine how much detail they access "currently" when we can only see Google Earth images from several months ago.

LIforrelaxin · 02-11-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Girl

Passing on the right has been lawful for many years... as long as you are on a divided roadway.

Is this true or only presumed to be true because it is so wide spread..... I know that when I got my License ummm around 1990 it was still illegal to pass on the right, according to the rule book....

That is not to say that the law hasn't changed.... but as I remember the saying is drive right pass left......

Also in just a few minutes of web searching I found a information on the subject. Most states require slower traffic to move to the right.... which implies passing on the right is not correct...... the problem is people get into the middle lane of a 3 lane divided highway, and don't move right when they aren't keeping up with traffic.....

Dave R · 02-11-2008, 01:06 PM

I dunno JayDV, sounds like solution in search of a problem. This is Winnipesaukee, not some over-crowded, lawless lake. The boating in Winnipesaukee as actually quite pleasant and relaxing and people are generally well-behaved. With the slightly tightened requirements for getting a boating license and the general downturn in the boating industry, the lake will get generally less crowded and the boaters will be generally better behaved.

froggy · 02-11-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Girl

Passing on the right has been lawful for many years... as long as you are on a divided roadway.

SOME STATES IT'S NOT LAWFUL. Where's the logic to passing on the right, in a divided 2-lane in each direction road?

Sorry, my driver education was in MA (but lived in NH over 35 years), when I was taught not to pass on right. A year go, I was chatting with MA troopers on break at rest area on Rt 24, between 128 & 495: their mission that day was to ticket drivers hogging left lane, which they said was illegal!!!

Skip · 02-11-2008, 01:15 PM

Off topic, but to close this line out it is permissible to pass on the right in NH under the following conditions (and RSA)...

265:19 When Overtaking on the Right is Permitted. – The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:
I. When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn;
II. Upon a roadway with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width for 2 or more lines of vehicles moving lawfully in the direction being traveled by the overtaking vehicle;
III. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the roadway.

ITD · 02-11-2008, 02:00 PM

JayDV,

Creative solution, but to be honest with you I think it would be cheaper and more effective to just charge everyone who wants to launch a boat in Lake Winnipesaukee $250 each time they launch. It would reduce the number of boats and solve most of the problems the SL crowd is complaining about. Boats that are in for the season could be charged $1000. No boats, including kayaks, canoes sailboats paddleboats would be exempt. Price everyone out of the market, return the lake to the days of fish and frogs.

SIKSUKR · 02-11-2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

You are so right!

The question is what do we do about Capt. Bonehead. It's almost impossible to change him. You can make him take a safe boating class but how much will sink in. Plus he can get a certificate on line by using an out of state address. He shouldn't be able to, but he can.

If we can't fix the Capt. is there any way we can make Winnipesaukee less attractive to him? Something that might make him and his kind not come here in the first place? . . . . Let's think.

Bingo.His kind is a 16 bowrider that does not go 45 mph.AGAIN A SPEED LIMIT DOES NOTHING TO REMOVE CAPT BONEHEAD!!!!This is what we are trying to tell you speed limit proponents.

JayDV · 02-11-2008, 02:26 PM

DaveR - You may be right about solution in search for problem today. But tomorrow may not be all that far away.

ITD - Interesting approach, but that may boot out the year-round residents that may not have the vancy metropolis area salaries. And those island folk that come up every other weekend?

I remember how the lake was back in 1962 when I was first allowed to take the family motorr boat for a quick spin around the island. Didn't matter what day, the center of the lake wasn't crowded at all. In those 40 years boating has changed and the boaters have changed a lot. The future will probably bring many more changes to the quantity of boats and the quality of boating unless some sort of monitoring system is initiated. Similar to those trip wires across our roads to check cars travelling and speeds travelled so that towns can upgrade the road or initiate enforcement patrols. The system is in place and only subject to "how do we use it?" questions. Also, once initiated, the go forward costs shold be minimal. The collection system can be for all lakes and waterways simultaneously so from the state perspective, not a lot of personnel or locations to utilize.

Island Girl · 02-11-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Is this true or only presumed to be true because it is so wide spread..... I know that when I got my License ummm around 1990 it was still illegal to pass on the right, according to the rule book....

That is not to say that the law hasn't changed.... but as I remember the saying is drive right pass left......

Also in just a few minutes of web searching I found a information on the subject. Most states require slower traffic to move to the right.... which implies passing on the right is not correct...... the problem is people get into the middle lane of a 3 lane divided highway, and don't move right when they aren't keeping up with traffic.....

This was many many years ago ... now NH may well have delayed it's implementation. My memory if failing... sometimes Congress will make a law and the states can implement it or not... however failure to implement some of these will result is a loss of highway funds from the government. I do not remember is it is this one or the seat belt law which NH was the last hold out.

IG

Woodsy · 02-11-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDV

It sounds like most of us are in agreement about a few basic things:

1) Many people in today's society display and/or practice a lack of respect for others, their rights, properties or rules and laws.

2) Some of those people share boating priveleges with people that go above and beyond safe boating practices and cause some of them to be afraid.

3) There are several documented instances where poor boating skills or flagrant disrespect of the laws caused serious property and bodily damage or worse, loss of life.

4) Many of the existing rules/laws are difficult to enforce due to manpower, cost, weather conditions or boating traffic.

5) If enforcement officers were visible, then boaters would more than likely obey the boating rules/laws as written in the boating handbook.

Jay...

I totally agree with your first statement. There does seem to be a lack of respect for the some of the rules, however it is from a very small percentage of boaters. Capt. Bonehead comes in all forms and makes up a very small percentage of the boaters that frequent Lake Winnipesaukee. These Boneheads drive all different kinds of boats... canoes, kayaks, rental boats, bass boats, family runabouts, hi-performance boats etc.

Bear Islander's argument is that if you make the lake unattractive to hi-performance boats by enacting speed limit then you will severely curtail Capt. Bonehead. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hi-Perfromance boats make up a very small percentage of the boats on Lake Winnipesaukee. Probably less than 5%. In one post Bear Islander actually reasoned that 10 150HP boats were better for the lake than one 1500HP boat. Kind of a very funny logic path coming from someone who stated on a number of occasions that he thinks the lake is overcrowded already. Most people who would purchase a 150HP boat are probably inexperienced entry level boaters who are more apt to commit mistakes and act like Boneheads... not because its intentional but because they just don't have the experieince to know any better. The guy who purchased the 1500HP boat more than likely has stepped up from a series of slower, smaller boats. Very few people have the means to just go out and plunk down $500K+ for one of those boats... and if you have the $$$ but your inexperienced? Good Luck trying to get a loan or insurance!

If the existing laws do little to deter Capt Bonehead because they aren't enforced enough due to manpower/resources, then how will an additonal law change things if the resources/manpower/$$$ aren't there? HB-847 does nothing to solve the problem of Capt. Bonehead. Boater Education combined with a greater MP presence is the key. A greater NHMP presence pretty much solves most issues especially in the busiest areas of the lake. The problem with that is cost... and of course NOBODY wants to foot the bill!

This is the first year that EVERYONE on driving a boat on Lake Winnipesaukee will be REQUIRED to have a Safe Boater Certificate. It will be interesting to see how the season goes.

Woodsy

Bear Islander · 02-11-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Jay...

Bear Islander's argument is that if you make the lake unattractive to hi-performance boats by enacting speed limit then you will severely curtail Capt. Bonehead. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hi-Perfromance boats make up a very small percentage of the boats on Lake Winnipesaukee. Probably less than 5%. ...

I agree that less than 5% of boats are high-performance, how does that effect my argument. How will a speed limit INCREASE the number of Capt. Boneheads? Obviously it will not. And any that decide not to come here is a win for Winni.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

and if you have the $$$ but your inexperienced? Good Luck trying to get a loan or insurance!

Woodsy

I have never bought a high-performance boat. Exactly how do the bank and insurance company determine your boating experience? How is it verified? Is this really true, or is it just hype?

It's hard for me to accept they care or even ask. A bank is loaning you money with the boat as collateral. Your experience has nothing to do with the equation, and is beyond there expertise.

JayDV · 02-11-2008, 05:28 PM

Thanks Woodsy - Just a couple of clarifications from my post.

#2. Some of the people (from #1) share the lake (and could be counted as Capt Boney) with the good boating fold that go above and beyond friendly boatin practices.

I think that keeping everyone fully accountable for their actions (where no one can get away with goofing around, or arrogant boating) then you don't have to restrict any specific kind of boat or horsepower, although that can still be an imperitive if poor boating practices were proven to continue.

The manpower wouldn't have to be increased for enforcement. The sensors can gather the data and similar to the auto radar or toll running cameras (now also seen on some city stoplights to catch those vehicles running yellows). The software can simply mail the infraction with detailed timestamp and infraction data to the registrants address (the registrant would be held responsible for any infractions while not in his/her use). A simple strike 3 concept and stricter enforcement penalties could apply. Or not. These rules could be adapted based on how the boating traffic handles themselves BEFORE enforcement steps in. Treat people respectfully and they will respect others, at least until data collected proves otherwise.

These infractions could be speeds exceeding NWZ, or headway within 150' of others. I'm sure that any waterway of less than 400x800 had an allowable designated speed most people would not object because it really would be common sense. This would cover many of the waterways between isands not NWZ or speed limited.

I'm guessing at costs here but if a buoy-top unit costs $200 for 100 buoys(?) and a submersible unit costs $250 for another 100 points that would be $45,000. If the data was collected by independant firm, the "fee" would be fixed and reportings would be a fee for so many reports. I'm sure the details would reveal what I missed, but so far my conception has the lake covered for a one-time start-up cost of $45,000 and yearly costs to be recouped by infraction fees. This data can also be used to fortify court cases or lawsuits and would warrant a processing fee from the prosecution/defense atty. As they do every winter, the buoys come out and get reused. Penalties for damaging state property would help to keep Capt Boney from straying from the straight and narrow.

I really hate telling people they ["can't use their fast boat wide open because (although it may not be you) someone may some day, almost cause an accident so we just restrict everyone's usage"] until that time when it becomes the last resort. At which time, I would concede Bear Islander's point and allow him that, which he would never do, the good ol' "I knew that"

KonaChick · 02-11-2008, 06:04 PM

Where are all the pro speed limit people?? I at least have to give BI credit for standing his ground and not backing down his position, but I thought there would be a lot more pro speed limit people posting other than BI and Evenstar especially with the bill moving forward as it has.

hazelnut · 02-11-2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I agree that less than 5% of boats are high-performance, how does that effect my argument. How will a speed limit INCREASE the number of Capt. Boneheads? Obviously it will not. And any that decide not to come here is a win for Winni.

Woodsy presented a pretty good argument here. Essentially, I am paraphrasing here, if a speed limit is passed and it "chases those GFBL" boats off the lake then we are losing the roughly best 5% of the individual boat drivers. It's called addition by subtraction. That leaves more captain boneheads by percentage. I know that it is loose math but Bear Islander wants to SPIN this into a positive by saying it won't INCREASE Captain Boneheads. Well, technically you are wrong. The percentage of Boneheads increases.
Not only that you will get what you want Bear Islander (with a vengance) It will remove Winni's "SCARY" stature and I am SURE it will increase the temptation for "Captain 16 foot trailer my boat for the day to Winni because it's safe now." Just what we want right.

That was my turn at SPIN in case you don't know. Ya see Bear Islander we can do it too!!!!!!

Bear Islander · 02-11-2008, 06:39 PM

I get it now. I was not following the logic. The idea is that if you get rid of high-performance boaters the average level of competence goes down.

Even if true, it's more than offset by the reality that Capt. Bonehead and his 1,700 HP Nortech at 130 mph can do a lot more damage than the same idiot at 170 HP.

Let's not forget that safety is only one issue. There are other reasons we need speed limits.

hazelnut · 02-11-2008, 07:26 PM

The way I see it a boat is a boat is a boat... Whether a 16 foot 170hp or a 1,700HP Nortech, no man woman or beast stands a chance in a Rowboat, Kayak, or Canoe. Matter of fact I trust the seasoned boater in the $500,000 1,700HP boat over the noob in the 170HP 16 footer with his face buried in the map.

As for the other reasons, I just don't think it is a constitutional and fair way to control the growth and overcrowded nature that the lake is headed towards. I believe a new and creative approach is needed to curtail the growth. I do agree that the lake can only support so much traffic and it needs looking into. I just disagree with singling out one dynamic that hasn't done anything wrong. Do you at least concede that point? I mean we are punishing one particular group of boaters when no crime was committed. Does that even phase any speed limit supporters? I know you dislike those boats but dislike isn't a good enough reason to enact law.

codeman671 · 02-11-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I agree that less than 5% of boats are high-performance, how does that effect my argument. How will a speed limit INCREASE the number of Capt. Boneheads? Obviously it will not. And any that decide not to come here is a win for Winni.

I have never bought a high-performance boat. Exactly how do the bank and insurance company determine your boating experience? How is it verified? Is this really true, or is it just hype?

It's hard for me to accept they care or even ask. A bank is loaning you money with the boat as collateral. Your experience has nothing to do with the equation, and is beyond there expertise.

It has been a past argument of Winnfabbs and other supporters that the high performance boats are scaring away the family/recreational boaters. If this is the case and the performance boats leave as some believe, what would return in their eyes is more family boaters (in my eyes, more potential Captain Boneheads). I wish there was a simple way to put a percentage to the # of Captain Boneheads compared to good, knowledgeable safe boaters but obviously this is impossible. Based on the one percentage that you agree on, if 5% of the boats on the lake are performance boats, what is the percentage of the 5% that are the boneheads compared to the percentage of non-performance boating boneheads?

As previously stated, I will volunteer my boat for a day to make the rounds with a mixed group of supporters and opposers so that we all at the same place and time can point out what we see and discuss it. I think the results would be startling to some supporters when they truly see the number of non-performance boating boneheads traveling at slow speeds.

As far as insurance and banking goes, I don't think it matters as much to the banks as to the type of boat being performance or not as they simply hold it as collateral protected by an insurance binder. The insurance companies however are extremely concerned as the liability policies fall back on them if there is a problem. Insurance on boats that exceed 50mph is more expensive, and this only increases based on size and horsepower. Your experience does come into play, for instance when I insured my airboat last year Markell was extremely particular on my past boating experience. They wanted a history of other boats I had driven and the insurance companies that I used previously to establish my boating record/history/experience. They did verify with Boat/US as I was contacted by Boat/US for my permission to have the records accessed. I have bought real estate and had to do less paperwork than I had to do to satisfy them...

It is not hard for a family boater to get insurance but a performance boat owner certainly does have more hoops to jump through and premiums that reflect it.

fatlazyless · 02-11-2008, 07:35 PM

Time will tell....it always does....a senate decision could be five weeks away. In 2006, HB162 passed the house on Feb 2, and died in the senate on March 16. Say, March 16, that's the day before Saint Patty's Day, so the winners can go celebrate, and the losers can go drown their sorrow.

Anythings possibe; the senate could amend it to cover the entire state and not just Winnipesaukee, or could make it effective on April 1........april fools day.......hmmm!.......april fools....aha...!

My money says it gets passed by 16-8, as the senate has 14 D's & 10 R''s, which would reflect the 236-111 house vote. When HB162 died in the senate, there were xx R's & xx D's, (forgot that item).

...and then, it's on to the governor's desk....and what he may do is very much an unknown....

codeman671 · 02-11-2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayDV

Thanks Woodsy - Just a couple of clarifications from my post.

#2. Some of the people (from #1) share the lake (and could be counted as Capt Boney) with the good boating fold that go above and beyond friendly boatin practices.

I think that keeping everyone fully accountable for their actions (where no one can get away with goofing around, or arrogant boating) then you don't have to restrict any specific kind of boat or horsepower, although that can still be an imperitive if poor boating practices were proven to continue.

The manpower wouldn't have to be increased for enforcement. The sensors can gather the data and similar to the auto radar or toll running cameras (now also seen on some city stoplights to catch those vehicles running yellows). The software can simply mail the infraction with detailed timestamp and infraction data to the registrants address (the registrant would be held responsible for any infractions while not in his/her use). A simple strike 3 concept and stricter enforcement penalties could apply. Or not. These rules could be adapted based on how the boating traffic handles themselves BEFORE enforcement steps in. Treat people respectfully and they will respect others, at least until data collected proves otherwise.

These infractions could be speeds exceeding NWZ, or headway within 150' of others. I'm sure that any waterway of less than 400x800 had an allowable designated speed most people would not object because it really would be common sense. This would cover many of the waterways between isands not NWZ or speed limited.

I'm guessing at costs here but if a buoy-top unit costs $200 for 100 buoys(?) and a submersible unit costs $250 for another 100 points that would be $45,000. If the data was collected by independant firm, the "fee" would be fixed and reportings would be a fee for so many reports. I'm sure the details would reveal what I missed, but so far my conception has the lake covered for a one-time start-up cost of $45,000 and yearly costs to be recouped by infraction fees. This data can also be used to fortify court cases or lawsuits and would warrant a processing fee from the prosecution/defense atty. As they do every winter, the buoys come out and get reused. Penalties for damaging state property would help to keep Capt Boney from straying from the straight and narrow.

Scientifically, and in a perfect world with lots of funding your plan sounds good but I think we are years away from this type of surveillance. If it was so easy I am sure you would find this elsewhere already. Think of how many issues there are with the ez-pass system for instance...I have been screwed by it already as have many others.

There still has to be a central computer system to manage the data, wireless systems to make it all talk, other IT equipment and people to manage it, etc. I think your $45k is a serious underestimate and it would quickly grow into the millions as well as years to work the bugs out. Some day we may be there, but we are light years away now.

CanisLupusArctos · 02-11-2008, 08:23 PM

It is time we had some better law enforcement on the lake. When I worked as a full-time ambulance EMT in the Boston area I very quickly learned the difference between a public safety professional who's an experienced realist and one who's new and inexperienced. On this lake, we've traditionally had a Marine Patrol that's new and inexperienced, and it often shows. The offenders (and even many law-abiding people) don't take them seriously as a result.

The purpose of this isn't to knock the NHMP because for years this lake never needed anything more than glorified security guards in boats. That is what a lot of NHMP officers are. No fault to them - every new officer has to start somewhere.

The purpose of this post is to say that the time has come for something more than security guards in boats... we need officers with experience and a better reputation.

Here's an idea for discussion... how about ending the NH Marine Patrol, and replacing it with a "NH State Police/Marine Division?" The rationale? The state troopers already have a motorcycle division, an aviation division, and an equestrian division (horsies). Fill the Marine positions with existing state troopers. One might ask, "What would they do in winter?" The answer is, "Whatever the motorcycle Staties do in winter." You don't see much of them once the weather gets cold.

Re-paint the boats green with gold lettering just like the cruisers. Change the name on the side of the boat from "Marine Patrol" to "State Trooper." Let the smokeybear in the boat wear his division's own variation of the green & gray uniform, just as the bikey division does.

I should emphasize that the State Trooper boats should be captained by officers who have enough experience to know the law AND common sense, who know when to get aggressive and when to be nice.

At the same time, perhaps the towns could get into the act of enforcing the laws of the water. When you speed along I-93 in Tilton, (example), you risk being pulled over by a state trooper OR the Tilton Police. The same should be true of Winni's bays, where the boat traffic is most concentrated. Have Laconia PD drive around on Paugus Bay, Meredith PD in their town's bay, Alton PD in Alton Bay, etc...

Granted, there are some people who will offend no matter what, but my guess is that if Capt. Bonehead started having run-ins with State Troopers on the water, and occasionally an on-water ticket from Laconia's finest, he'd get the message. Maybe he'd even take his act elsewhere.

It's not just about Capt. Bonehead, either. This lake's summer scene is starting to involve other types of crime that we haven't seen on the lake in the past - drug trafficking, for example. It all points to our need for better law enforcement on the water. I'm not in favor of making the lake a police state, I'd just like to see the same police presence that exists anywhere else in the state where lots of people gather.

Bear Islander · 02-11-2008, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

The way I see it a boat is a boat is a boat... Whether a 16 foot 170hp or a 1,700HP Nortech, no man woman or beast stands a chance in a Rowboat, Kayak, or Canoe. Matter of fact I trust the seasoned boater in the $500,000 1,700HP boat over the noob in the 170HP 16 footer with his face buried in the map.

As for the other reasons, I just don't think it is a constitutional and fair way to control the growth and overcrowded nature that the lake is headed towards. I believe a new and creative approach is needed to curtail the growth. I do agree that the lake can only support so much traffic and it needs looking into. I just disagree with singling out one dynamic that hasn't done anything wrong. Do you at least concede that point? I mean we are punishing one particular group of boaters when no crime was committed. Does that even phase any speed limit supporters? I know you dislike those boats but dislike isn't a good enough reason to enact law.

It would be wrong to single out and punish high-performance boaters that are not breaking laws. Good think we are not doing that. IT'S JUST A SPEED LIMIT! You know like we have on our roads, in the air, for ski-mobiles.

Boating on Winni is one of the few remaining things you can do on public property that DOESN'T have a speed limit (yet).

I tell you what, stop by my dock next summer and take me for a high speed ride, I will show you how much I hate performance boats.

Skip · 02-11-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

...Here's an idea for discussion... how about ending the NH Marine Patrol, and replacing it with a "NH State Police/Marine Division?" The rationale? The state troopers already have a motorcycle division and an aviation division. Fill the Marine positions with existing state troopers. One might ask, "What would they do in winter?" The answer is, "Whatever the motorcycle Staties do in winter." You don't see much of them once the weather gets cold...

Just for clarification. The NHSP officers that on occasion operate motorcycles are not permanently assigned to those uints. They are regular troopers that are assigned cruisers, They supplement the cruiser on occasion with a motorcycle patrol. During inclement weather and the winter they revert to regular cruiser patrol.

Also, in case some have not heard, the Governor has made it clear he will veto any programs that have additional cost. Your average NHSP trooper earns at least double the hourly wage of a seasonal NHMP officer. After you factor in medical & retirement costs for the full time troopers you are looking at a cost of 2.5 to 3x that of the seasonal officers you arer looking to replace. In the cash strapped situatiion this State is facing during these tough economic times no one is going to authorize that kind of additional spending to supervise a bunch of recreational boaters on Winnipesaukee.

These threads have been very entertaining to read for the most part, full of fire & brimstone and and humor and angst, and untold hyperbole. But lets get back to reality for a moment.

Yes, we are all aggravated by the overcrowding that occurs one or two weekend days a week for maybe eight or ten weekends a year. We all have stories of close calls and "Captain Boneheads" galore.

But the simple fact is given the tens of thousands of boats that ply New Hampshire's inland waters every season, major accidents and deaths are so rare that they are statistically insignificant. And while the State may pass a few more regulations to satisfy a political constituency or two, there will be no new money coming for enforcement and there are no announced or planned major shakeups at New Hampshire Marine Patrol.

Try to convince the NH resident and taxpayer (and voter) caught daily in the traffic congestion on Routes 93, 95 or 101 that money and law enforcement resources needs to be diverted away from the problems they see on their commutes to babysit recreational boating on Lake Winnipesuakee!

Sorry folks, but I think a lot of you need to put this whole debate in a much better (and wider) perspective. And when you do, you will realize that speed limit or not, much of what concerns you on the big Lake will not change regardless of the final status of HB 847.

The sad but simple fact is that in the end both sides are going to be greatly disappointed with the outcome of this particular legislation.

fatlazyless · 02-11-2008, 09:20 PM

Last year when I stopped into the Glendale Marine Patrol headquarters to register a boat, I took a couple minutes to look at the job opportunities for seasonal MP officers.

Before an individual is accepted into the preliminary training program they have to qualify themselves by passing a physical fitness test and psychological oriented interview. The brochure described the physical fitness tests and there was no question in my mind that it was a difficult test. It included having to run so far in a set time limit, pushups, situps, bench presses, all prorated according to one's age.

Performance motorboating, as opposed to paddling a kayak, does not promote physical fitness. Many a performance boater would easily have a very difficult, if not impossible, time passing the MP's fitness test that prequalifies him/her for their training program.

After all, moving that gasoline throttle is hardly an aerobic workout. Neither is lifting a can of beer that's disquised as a can of soda!

luckypete · 02-11-2008, 09:55 PM

Greetings to one and all,

We spend our summers on the big lake in a no wake zone. Apparently, the aforementioned capt has an entire flotilla of watercraft.

I've witnessed the capt. piloting his kayak successfully into the path of an oncoming boat, causing the other boat to test his emergency stop/reverse skills.

The capt. also likes fishing. His 17 ft bass boat with a 200 hp is a joy to behold. One time i watched him scream at another boater who came to close to the captains fishing line, even though the capt was trolling through a very narrow channel.

The captain also owns and operates a beautiful vintage wooden powerboat, complete with mahogany, brass and vintage flags. However, apparently boats of this era are not equipped with either speedometers or the ability to turn one's head and observe the rather impressive wake being generated.

The Captain is, of course, a family man. Spending time on the water in his bowrider while pulling all the baby captains around on their obrien ski tubes is the captains idea of quality family time. The good times do suffer a bit when the captain realizes that his progeny are in serious trouble of not carrying on the family name because he has not noticed that the tots have fallen off the tube and are floating in the aforementioned narrow channel during the July 4th weekend.

The Captain is also a big time sailor. I've seen the captain navigate the channel under full sail, not lowering the mainsail a bit or even lowering his standards and using the engine. No sir, the captain just screamed at every other boater about his right of way, "i'm a boat under sail, therefore I have the right of way". You gotta love the captain's intricate understanding of navigational law, don't you?

Finally, and most importantly, the captain is a loving husband. One way the captain displays his love is to operate his 24' center console at 15 to 20 mph through the no wake zone. When I displayed the universal sign for "what the heck are you doing" (arms outstretched, palms facing upward, shoulders shrugging) the captain's wife responded, "I'm sick to my stomach". Perhaps the captains piloting skills are not really what they should be after all.

Maybe next year he'll buy another boat!

froggy · 02-11-2008, 10:00 PM

Make this suggestion to where it'll be read by people of authority, like Councilor Ray Burton, state police training dept. (except a while ago, I found impossible to find an email address to even a state police secretary), Center Harbor Police and other police chiefs, County, and any others you can think of. As I posted here about EZ Pass: do we really think those kinds of people read this forum? Guess what, NO, is my conclusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanisLupusArctos

It is time we had some better law enforcement on the lake. When I worked as a full-time ambulance EMT in the Boston area I very quickly learned the difference between a public safety professional who's an experienced realist and one who's new and inexperienced. On this lake, we've traditionally had a Marine Patrol that's new and inexperienced, and it often shows. The offenders (and even many law-abiding people) don't take them seriously as a result.

The purpose of this isn't to knock the NHMP because for years this lake never needed anything more than glorified security guards in boats. That is what a lot of NHMP officers are. No fault to them - every new officer has to start somewhere.

The purpose of this post is to say that the time has come for something more than security guards in boats... we need officers with experience and a better reputation.

Here's an idea for discussion... how about ending the NH Marine Patrol, and replacing it with a "NH State Police/Marine Division?" The rationale? The state troopers already have a motorcycle division, an aviation division, and an equestrian division (horsies). Fill the Marine positions with existing state troopers. One might ask, "What would they do in winter?" The answer is, "Whatever the motorcycle Staties do in winter." You don't see much of them once the weather gets cold.

Re-paint the boats green with gold lettering just like the cruisers. Change the name on the side of the boat from "Marine Patrol" to "State Trooper." Let the smokeybear in the boat wear his division's own variation of the green & gray uniform, just as the bikey division does.

I should emphasize that the State Trooper boats should be captained by officers who have enough experience to know the law AND common sense, who know when to get aggressive and when to be nice.

At the same time, perhaps the towns could get into the act of enforcing the laws of the water. When you speed along I-93 in Tilton, (example), you risk being pulled over by a state trooper OR the Tilton Police. The same should be true of Winni's bays, where the boat traffic is most concentrated. Have Laconia PD drive around on Paugus Bay, Meredith PD in their town's bay, Alton PD in Alton Bay, etc...

Granted, there are some people who will offend no matter what, but my guess is that if Capt. Bonehead started having run-ins with State Troopers on the water, and occasionally an on-water ticket from Laconia's finest, he'd get the message. Maybe he'd even take his act elsewhere.

It's not just about Capt. Bonehead, either. This lake's summer scene is starting to involve other types of crime that we haven't seen on the lake in the past - drug trafficking, for example. It all points to our need for better law enforcement on the water. I'm not in favor of making the lake a police state, I'd just like to see the same police presence that exists anywhere else in the state where lots of people gather.

froggy · 02-11-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckypete

Greetings to one and all,

We spend our summers on the big lake in a no wake zone. Apparently, the aforementioned capt has an entire flotilla of watercraft.

I've witnessed the capt. piloting his kayak successfully into the path of an oncoming boat, causing the other boat to test his emergency stop/reverse skills.

The capt. also likes fishing. His 17 ft bass boat with a 200 hp is a joy to behold. One time i watched him scream at another boater who came to close to the captains fishing line, even though the capt was trolling through a very narrow channel.

The captain also owns and operates a beautiful vintage wooden powerboat, complete with mahogany, brass and vintage flags. However, apparently boats of this era are not equipped with either speedometers or the ability to turn one's head and observe the rather impressive wake being generated.

The Captain is, of course, a family man. Spending time on the water in his bowrider while pulling all the baby captains around on their obrien ski tubes is the captains idea of quality family time. The good times do suffer a bit when the captain realizes that his progeny are in serious trouble of not carrying on the family name because he has not noticed that the tots have fallen off the tube and are floating in the aforementioned narrow channel during the July 4th weekend.

The Captain is also a big time sailor. I've seen the captain navigate the channel under full sail, not lowering the mainsail a bit or even lowering his standards and using the engine. No sir, the captain just screamed at every other boater about his right of way, "i'm a boat under sail, therefore I have the right of way". You gotta love the captain's intricate understanding of navigational law, don't you?

Finally, and most importantly, the captain is a loving husband. One way the captain displays his love is to operate his 24' center console at 15 to 20 mph through the no wake zone. When I displayed the universal sign for "what the heck are you doing" (arms outstretched, palms facing upward, shoulders shrugging) the captain's wife responded, "I'm sick to my stomach". Perhaps the captains piloting skills are not really what they should be after all.

Maybe next year he'll buy another boat!

NOW, that's a good definition of person with respect for others - the very reason I retired from boating on the Lake on busy times like weekends!
I will remember sailing my own 24' sailboat alone around from Meredith Bay to Shep Brown's in November for winter storage - very peaceful since the Lake was without so many boaters!!! Not at all like an August weekend day.

hazelnut · 02-12-2008, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckypete

Greetings to one and all,

We spend our summers on the big lake in a no wake zone. Apparently, the aforementioned capt has an entire flotilla of watercraft.

I've witnessed the capt. piloting his kayak successfully into the path of an oncoming boat, causing the other boat to test his emergency stop/reverse skills.

The capt. also likes fishing. His 17 ft bass boat with a 200 hp is a joy to behold. One time i watched him scream at another boater who came to close to the captains fishing line, even though the capt was trolling through a very narrow channel.

The captain also owns and operates a beautiful vintage wooden powerboat, complete with mahogany, brass and vintage flags. However, apparently boats of this era are not equipped with either speedometers or the ability to turn one's head and observe the rather impressive wake being generated.

The Captain is, of course, a family man. Spending time on the water in his bowrider while pulling all the baby captains around on their obrien ski tubes is the captains idea of quality family time. The good times do suffer a bit when the captain realizes that his progeny are in serious trouble of not carrying on the family name because he has not noticed that the tots have fallen off the tube and are floating in the aforementioned narrow channel during the July 4th weekend.

The Captain is also a big time sailor. I've seen the captain navigate the channel under full sail, not lowering the mainsail a bit or even lowering his standards and using the engine. No sir, the captain just screamed at every other boater about his right of way, "i'm a boat under sail, therefore I have the right of way". You gotta love the captain's intricate understanding of navigational law, don't you?

Finally, and most importantly, the captain is a loving husband. One way the captain displays his love is to operate his 24' center console at 15 to 20 mph through the no wake zone. When I displayed the universal sign for "what the heck are you doing" (arms outstretched, palms facing upward, shoulders shrugging) the captain's wife responded, "I'm sick to my stomach". Perhaps the captains piloting skills are not really what they should be after all.

Maybe next year he'll buy another boat!

Regardless of your position this is one of the best posts I've ever seen.

Did you know that "the captain" also owns a vintage mahogany tour boat that operates out of Wolfeboro? Apparently "the captain" wants to give people a vintage tour and revert back to the days where the 150foot law was not yet in the books. He does a great job of that.

fatlazyless · 02-12-2008, 08:11 AM

The point I want to make is that it is difficult to become a seasonal Marine Patrol officer. They have to pass a difficult physical fitness test at the start before proceeding with the training program. The test gets prorated according to one's age, and I know for a fact that 96.5% of the performance boaters on Lake Winnipesaukee would FLUNK the test. And yes. the kayakers would have a PASSING rate of 89.5%.

So go place that factoid in your carburetor and compress it!

Cal · 02-12-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

The point I want to make is that it is difficult to become a seasonal Marine Patrol officer. They have to pass a difficult physical fitness test at the start before proceeding with the training program. The test gets prorated according to one's age, and I know for a fact that 96.5% of the performance boaters on Lake Winnipesaukee would FLUNK the test. And yes. the kayakers would have a PASSING rate of 89.5%.

So go place that factoid in your carburetor and compress it!

So your point is Kayakers have more muscles than brains , and performance boats have more brains than muscles

GWC... · 02-12-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Regardless of your position this is one of the best posts I've ever seen.

Did you know that "the captain" also owns a vintage mahogany tour boat that operates out of Wolfeboro? Apparently "the captain" wants to give people a vintage tour and revert back to the days where the 150foot law was not yet in the books. He does a great job of that.

That's odd...

Look who is near the end of the list of proponents...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

First, I never made that claim. But more importantly, why don't YOU prove that performance boats pollute less.

The proof that tourism is being effected is in the below list of speed limit supporters. You will note many are tourist related. There are even several marinas in there. Including marinas that sell large fast boats.

The Common Man
Ashalnd Insurance
Strictly Rentals
Wild Meadow Canoes and Kayaks
Centre Harbor Cellars
Center Harbor Inn
AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club)
NH Audubon
New Hampshire Lakes Association (NHLA)
Decker Machinery Company
The Architectural Studio
Fay’s Boat Yard
Birch Island Camp Association
Gilford Islands Association (GIA)
Jolly Island Association
Lockes Island Association
Belknap Landscaping Company
Design Quest
DK Net Design
E&S Insurance LLC
The Hair Factory
Mike’s Ala Carte Catering
Pepi Herrmann Crystal, Inc.
Glendale Marine
River Edge Marina
Squam Lakes Association (SLA)
Cottage Place on Squam Lake
Squam Lake Inn
Me Designs
Barrons Billiards
Blooms Vanity
J&J Printing
LaBelles Shoe Store
Central & Northern Title
Haughey, Philpot & Laurent
Lakeside Hotel Assoc.
Sundial Shops
Paugus Bay Marina
Best Western Silver Fox Inn
Griffin Bodi Krause
Municipal Resources, Inc.
Great Northern Trading Co
Meredith Marina
Y-Landing
Bear Island Conservation Association (BICA)
East Bear Island Conservation Association
AMC- 3 Mile Island
Winnipesaukee Rowing Club
Alexandria Lamp Shop
Case N’ Keg
Chris Dupont Painting
Christopher P. Williams, Architects
Eisenberg Chiropractic
Hawkins Photography
Hobo Railroad
Landscapes By Tom
League of NH Craftsmen
Mastiff Builders
Omni Signs
Patricia’s “Specially for You”
Pemi Glass Company
Pretty Petunias Garden Center
Remax Bay Side Real Estate
Remcon/North
Sagecliff Software, Inc.
The Village Perk
Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad
GASCO Realty, LLC
51 Main Street, LLc
Inns & Spa at Mill Falls
Meredith Bay Painting
The Lake House Grille
Lago
Camp
Town Docks Restaurant
Mame's
The Gallery at Mill Falls
Oglethorp
Guiseppies Resturant
Northern Air Trading
Lady of the Lake Clothing
Adorments
Creative Clothing
Christopher P. Williams, Architect
Oak Street Associates
Old Mill Insurance
Innisfree Bookstore
Phoenix Leasing, Inc.
Silver Top Ventures
Minuteman Plumbing & Heating
Sava Designs
Horn Insurance
Harts Restaurant
Fermentation Station LLC
Hunter's
Waukewan Antiques
Village Greenery
Etcetera Shop
Associated Surveyors
Moulton Farm
Barber Pole Association
Trexler’s Marina
Land’s End
Wyman Trail Association
Loon Preservation Committee
1st T Development Corporation
The Woodshed Restaurant
Castle in the Clouds
Amoskeg Insurance
EPTAM Plastics
The Common Man Inn
Corner House Inn
Seacoast Kayak
Tilton Veterinary Hospital
Waterville Valley Condo Rental
Thurston’s Marina
Lighthouse Inn
Weirs Beach Motel and Cottages
Van's Hotel Enterprises
Wolfboro Inn
Island Real Estate of New Hampshire
LB Boat Restoration
Millie B
Wolfeboro Trolley Company
Wolfetrap Restaurant

hazelnut · 02-12-2008, 12:21 PM

GWC,

Seriously last summer I had more than just one run in with this guy. One time coming out of Wolfeboro bay he passed me at about 30MPH he was about 25-35 feet off my Port side. I gave the universal hands in the air shrug gesture for W.T.F. He replied with the universal shrug sign for huh? Ironic that he supports a speed limit when he doesn't even know how to drive a boat in the first place.

Bear Islander · 02-12-2008, 12:58 PM

The "universal shrug" sign is open to interpretation.

I prefer the "finger twirl around ear" gambit. This can be emphasized by converting it to a "point at offender" maneuver.

Anybody know the sign for "find a rule book and read it" I really need that one!

SIKSUKR · 02-12-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The "universal shrug" sign is open to interpretation.
I prefer the "finger twirl around ear" gambit. This can be emphasized by converting it to a "point at offender" maneuver.
Anybody know the sign for "find a rule book and read it" I really need that one!

On this we agree BI.LOL

COWISLAND NH · 02-12-2008, 02:14 PM

I'm so glad we have the opportunity to be at the lake when all the bone head captains go home (April, May, Sept & Oct).....MP doesn't even look twice at us go fast boats when were out having fast safe fun. Livin on an island isn't for everyone, but it beats boating near the bone head capts. when their driving to close and scared out of their minds....pass the law....we'll be out before MP even

see us >>PASS YA LATER (150 feet that is)!!!!!!

John A. Birdsall · 02-12-2008, 03:48 PM

I have posted on this about speed limits, and I have read other peoples remarks, and all seem to make sense to one degree or another. People say that performance boats are a problem, that they drive others off the lake or scare them.

I have owned an 11' boat with an 18 hp Johnson, and to me that was a high performance boat, and I think the capt of the Mount would say it was a pest or a pain in the well never mind. as the mount very seldom went to Alton bay without that as an escort jumping its waves, and crossing the bow. To be young and stupid. But today I operate a 16'6" boat with a 115 Hp on it, I chase the mount once and a while, but not like I used to. Heck the waves are not big enough anymore.

While I do not like grouping anybody in a cluster (capt bonehead) there seems to be much about it. But they are not in any size boat, or jetski they are not just in powerboats, sailboats or kayaks, but they are in every type of boat out there. The ones that give us perhaps the biggest headaches don't even own the boat that they are driving, they rent it. They have no clue as to how to operate them just point and steer. Oh the rest of us have problems, but I think we learn.

I think today, as I am just a shade more mature than I was with my 11' that I drive my boat defensively by looking out for the other boaters and try to keep my 150' of space. I wish others would do the same.

Lakegeezer · 02-12-2008, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

IT'S JUST A SPEED LIMIT! You know like we have on our roads, in the air, for ski-mobiles. Boating on Winni is one of the few remaining things you can do on public property that DOESN'T have a speed limit (yet).

Just a small correction BI. Skimobiles have a 40 MPH limit on the trails, but on the lake, there is no speed limit - just as there isn't one for boats. Over the years, there are many more skimobile deaths on the lake, than boat deaths.

Seeker · 02-12-2008, 09:33 PM

geezer, the snowmobile limit is 45mph on regular trails, 10 mph on streets, and there are a few lakes with nighttime sped limits e.g. back Lake 35mph at night.

Seeker · 02-12-2008, 09:42 PM

Since I've figured out how to type again I'll make one comment on the speed limit war. Just to let you know I am against it and I've written to my Senator Kenney to voice my opinion. I won't get into his reply other than to say it implied the opponents, myself included, are not organized and the proponents are making all the noise and ergo they will prevail. What we say here on this forum is just bs. We need to write our senators NOW and voice our opinions.

I don't own a go fast boat but I support their rights.

fatlazyless · 02-13-2008, 08:31 AM

Reading Senator Kenney's id in the senate website, he's a Republican and a Marine Corps officer, having joined the Marines in 1980.

It just shows to go that not all the R's are in lock-step against HB847 and some have the smarts to consider HB847 on its' merits.

Hey there way up north, Berlin's Senator Gallus.....'"Ten-Hut...maybe you want to reconsider and take a look at Sen Kenney's position, and sorry to hear about the Gorham paper mill's big layoff's."

ITD · 02-13-2008, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Hey there way up north, Berlin's Senator Gallus.....'"Ten-Hut...maybe you want to reconsider and take a look at Sen Kenney's position, and sorry to hear about the Gorham paper mill's big layoff's."

OFF TOPIC !!!!!!!!!!!!

Since we like to delve into obtuse reasoning and diversion, I find it interesting that the owners of the Gorham paper mill decided to close the mill right after the Democrats take power in the NH government. They must know something that we don't. Something like increased taxes, regulation and entitlements that are bound to come with a liberal agenda. Sounds like they decided to "git while the gitting was good".

fatlazyless · 02-13-2008, 12:08 PM

From the Marine Patrol website, here's the fitness requirements for a male, aged 50-59, to get accepted into their training program for the seasonal Marine Patrol officer.

1 1/2 mile indoor run: 15:53 minutes

benchpress: .70 x your body weight

situps : 22

pushups : 11

...not so easy!

Evenstar · 02-13-2008, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

From the Marine Patrol website, here's the fitness requirements for a male, aged 50-59, to get accepted into their training program for the seasonal Marine Patrol officer.

1 1/2 mile indoor run: 15:53 minutes; benchpress: .70 x your body weight;
situps : 22; pushups : 11; ...not so easy!

The fitness requirements for being on my sailing team is way more difficult than this. Plus we have to also pass a swimming test. I have to run 3 miles in under 30 minutes. Now I'm trying to do 5K in under 30 minutes (not quite there yet, but getting closer).

. . . and I'm going to be looking for summer employment . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal

So your point is Kayakers have more muscles than brains , and performance boats have more brains than muscles.

Cal, I graduated in the top in my class, so apparantly kayakers can have both brains and muscles.

hazelnut · 02-13-2008, 05:44 PM

This has seriously gone way way off topic.

FLL, good, GREAT even, our MP officers can run and lift weights. Good for them.

Evenstar, you are smart AND super strong WOW! That is great.

What in the H. E. double hockey sticks does this have to do with opinions on the Speed Limit?

I've met many fat smart people and buff idiots in my life. Some are fortunate to have been blessed with both. I am so glad we cleared all this up.

Cal · 02-13-2008, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Cal, I graduated in the top in my class, so apparantly kayakers can have both brains and muscles.

Somehow that doesn't surprize me one bit

fatlazyless · 02-13-2008, 08:41 PM

Why did I bring up the fitness requirements for the 50-59 yr old seasonal MP officer to gain entry into the training program? Because further back in this thread there's a post that denigrates the seasonal MP officer and suggests replacing them with state troopers in green & bronze boats. Plus, the seasonal MP officers has been belittled with various perjorative nick names in other posts, off & on, for years.

My point being that the reality is the great majority of the go-fast, performance boaters could not meet the fitness requirements for starting the MP training program. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black, or something!

Will try again to get the numbers for 20-29, 30-39, 40-49, age groups, and post them here.

It does not speak too well for the performance boaters that most of you are so out of shape and overweight that you cannot walk the one quarter mile, up the medium hill from the Center Harbor docks to Canoe Restaurant, and need to take the Canoe Cadillac shuttle.

Huffing & puffing, just to get up that little hill, shame-shame-shame; it all comes from the 'need for speed' and being 'addicted to more horsepower'.

SteveA · 02-13-2008, 09:25 PM

FLL.... you are priceless

Looks like you survived the snow shoveling.... (that's a good thing)

Cal · 02-13-2008, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

My point being that the reality is the great majority of the go-fast, performance boaters could not meet the fitness requirements for starting the MP training program. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black, or something!

It does not speak too well for the performance boaters that most of you are so out of shape and overweight that you cannot walk the one quarter mile, up the medium hill from the Center Harbor docks to Canoe Restaurant, and need to take the Canoe Cadillac shuttle.

Huffing & puffing, just to get up that little hill, shame-shame-shame; it all comes from the 'need for speed' and being 'addicted to more horsepower'.

And just where did you get you facts and figures about over weight performance boats? Perhaps just a personal observance or personal opinion of what you want to see. I could start on the personal attack senerio but I'm not that petty or shallow but I will say , us fat cats don't shop at Wallmart

SIKSUKR · 02-14-2008, 03:15 PM

Cal,I think that's FLL being FLL.A little tongue in cheek while stirring the pot.

hazelnut · 02-14-2008, 04:31 PM

FLL has cabin fever, or shovelitis, or he's snowblind or somethin' of that nature.

offmycloud · 02-14-2008, 05:38 PM

FLL - I only use one nick name for the seasonal MP's - "puddle pigs" - what are the others I can use?
Thanks

Skip · 02-14-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by offmycloud

FLL - I only use one nick name for the seasonal MP's - "puddle pigs" - what are the others I can use?
Thanks

C'mon folks, are we really going to start stooping to this?

WeirsBeachBoater · 02-14-2008, 06:48 PM

Skip, I am afraid this topic, and the forum in general is suffering. I wish Don would just close the speed limit forum altogether. It is doing nothing to help the situation, and frankly I wonder how first time visitors to the site feel when they read all this BS. I treasure this lake like many people on this forum, and I say for the greater good we should petitiion Don to take this forum down! It has done nothing more than create great animosity, and let a few rogues tarnish the reputation of the forum, the lake and the community!

hazelnut · 02-14-2008, 07:02 PM

offmycloud, I think that was over the line a tad.

WeirsBeachBoater, I'm pretty sure every forum on every subject from Trekkies to Tech Talk has its share of trolls and trouble makers. I think most readers of any forum can muddle through the junk and pull out the gems.

This issue touches a nerve and arises a passion in many, guilty as charged. However, to shut down a thread as you suggest seems a bit extreme. The whole reason chat forums exist is for people to express information and opinion. I agree things can tend to get out of hand but I think Don does a good job cleaning up the mess. Hey Don, ya missed a spot (see offmycloud's post)

As you said a few rogues are trying to tarnish the reputation of the site. I think the good apples far outweigh the bad apples on this forum. Though I think there should be limits I believe it is healthy for people to be able to use a forum such as this to vent or share opinions on hot button issues. It would be a pretty boring forum without a few fireworks now and then.

Bear Islander · 02-14-2008, 07:30 PM

Actually I think this forum has been tame recently. The worst thing I have been called is a child. Speed limit arguments were much more personal in the past. At least that is my recollection.

Plus this is offmycloud's first post in the speed limit forum.

froggy · 02-14-2008, 07:54 PM

How is this relevant to the editorial on speed limits?

02-10-2008, 12:04 PM	#5
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,738 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	Well, like everyone else, the newspapers get a monthly electric, heating & property tax bill, and the money has to come from somewhere. Basically, every newspaper is biased and it's been that way forever. It's called reading between the lines, or something. As Lord Ashton (England 1887) said in another thread, "All power corrupts, and all power currupts absolutely!" Meredith is fortunate to have three local papers, the Meredith News, the Laconia Daily Sun, and the Laconia Citizen. Local newspapers coexisting in the same market is a good thing for their readers and advertisers. Just look what's happened to fm radio, nation-wide. And to think that New Hampshire public radio used to be almost all classical music. If any one media can be held responsible for NH's turning from red to blue, it's got to be Radio NHPR and Garrison Keillor's 'Prairie Home Companion.' ........ Today's www.cmonitor.com features 'Evenstar - Arwen' in a long article. She has contributed a lot of compelling, long distance, kayak posts which are probably news to many of the boaters that read this forum.. Like, If New Hampshire just had the Union Leader we'd all be thinking, just scream 'live free or die' and that's the answer for everything.....good grief. __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake! Last edited by fatlazyless; 02-10-2008 at 12:48 PM.

02-10-2008, 04:42 PM	#13
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,738 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	Buried somewhere in all her posts, she says her name is Arwen, an unusual name, and probably more than once, and I remembered that. What the heck, the Concord Monitor doesn't publish a big. long, Sunday, front-page. article like that, without the person's permission. Being stuck inside on a snowy-blowy day, waiting for a flag to fly out on the ice, I took a gander at the Concord Monitor. Small world,New Hampshire. In full disclosure, I confess to being a local loser, and all-around knucklehead......but the speed limits will still soon be THE LAW anyway.....so there.....cheers! hey Arwen......great posts.....keep on paddlin'.....& may the force be with you! __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

02-10-2008, 10:52 PM	#19
CanisLupusArctos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,049 Thanks: 15 Thanked 472 Times in 107 Posts	society-wide I still think the increased boating problems (i.e. Capt. Bonehead) that we're seeing on this lake are just one manifestation of a society-wide problem made of materialism, greed, and loss of respect for others. Going through elementary school in the 1980s (in the Boston area) I remember a lot of emphasis on respect for others. I had teachers as late as high school who drilled it into us that if you worked hard and achieved success but you weren't nice, you were still going to sit in detention with the usual punks. Now I have various friends whose kids are going to elementary school and have neighbors whose kids are in high school, and they're being taught that 'getting ahead' is everything. Step on toes if you have to, anything to get ahead. What's out there is yours for the taking and if you work hard, you deserve it, so go get it. Respect for others? That's a quaint idea we don't practice anymore, because it gets in the way. Respect has been replaced by this other thing called "tolerance" whose main focus is 'don't offend people who are different from you.' The respect that my class learned in the 80s was to be extended to all people, whether they were different or the same. We had minorities join our class over the years, and nobody thought anything of it because we were never taught about differences; we were just taught to respect others no matter what. The real 'gotcha' in this? All this much change, in just 20 years. I didn't think I'd be talking like this ("When I was a boy...") until I had gray hair. But things are changing so fast. Even 5 years ago was noticeably different from today. As it stands now, greed/arrogance and the "get ahead at all costs" mentality is becoming a disease. The song by Nickleback "We all just wanna be big rock stars..." (which we can hear on WLNH at least once a day) reflects this new culture we have. And if we are all big rock stars (in our heads, if nowhere else), we can ignore other people as we drive around the lake in our rock-star boats, behaving like Britney, Lindsay, and Paris as we flip off all the "inferior" boaters around us. After all, we worked hard, so we deserve this vacation. Now if only the politicians would catch on. Too bad they're busy catering to it instead. Listen to speeches made by either party, and there's a huge focus on "Ask what your country can do for you! If you elect me President, your country will do more for you!" Therefore I feel this mentality, not lack of laws, is the real problem. Both parties are making it worse. Today's Republican Party too often approaches problems by saying "There is no problem" while the Democrats say "More laws can fix this problem." Nobody looks at the fact that the condition of the human heart is what needs changing, and that can only happen if we start teaching "respect for others comes before material gain for yourself" once more. This, I believe, would solve our lake boating problems, and probably many more. Last edited by CanisLupusArctos; 02-11-2008 at 12:41 AM.

02-11-2008, 08:56 AM	#25
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,738 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	More immediately, my sources tell me that WinnFabs was helpfull in getting Evenstar hired as a NH State Senate infilitrator.......oops.......make that....as a NH State Senate intern.....and that 19 senators all want those little 'kayak paddle' lapel buttons for their lapels,. "Lose the need for speed, go eat some granola!." __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

02-11-2008, 10:16 AM	#27
Island Girl Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Central MA Posts: 2,352 Thanks: 18 Thanked 535 Times in 179 Posts	Passing on the right Passing on the right has been lawful for many years... as long as you are on a divided roadway. __________________ Island Girl ....... Make Lemonade

02-10-2008, 10:53 AM	#1
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,925 Thanks: 476 Thanked 691 Times in 387 Posts	The Meredith News Editorial AGAINST speed limit It seems there has been a change in staff over at The Meredith News. The informative, accurate, well written editorial speaks out against the speed limit on the lake. I provide a link here but the site requires a subscription. http://www.meredithnhnews.com/ (scroll to bottom for beginning of editorial) Anyway, the editorial speaks of a "solution looking for a problem" and discusses the unenforceability of the law. It also advocates for an "initiative to actually enforce laws that are already in effect;" as a more effective safety measure than an ill conceived (my words) speed limit. The editorial points out the bill's precarious situation due to the fact that Gov. Lynch has said he may not sign it into law. I don't trust that Gov. Lynch will not sign the bill. The paranoid side of me thinks that this may be a ploy to get the Senate to pass the buck, hoping that the Gov. will not sign the bill if it gets to him, taking the political heat. I think the Gov. will sign the bill if he gets it and I urge the Senate to defeat this bill when they get it. Good paper that Meredith News, lots of local stories......

02-10-2008, 11:04 AM	#2
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,738 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	And what do Irwin Marine, Lakeport Landing, HK Motorsports, Shep Brown's Boat Basin, Channel Marine, Thurston's Marine, Glendale Marine, Paugus Bay Marine, Silver Sands, & Meredith Marine all have in common. They all buy advertising in the Meredith News or one of its' sister newspapers like the Gilford Steamer. Does the Meredith News know who is buttering their bread? What do you think? ........ 236-111 ..........14-10........hut-hut-hut............hike!!! __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

02-10-2008, 11:22 AM	#3
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,925 Thanks: 476 Thanked 691 Times in 387 Posts	Are you insinuating bias in the media???? Huh????? I'm shocked I tell you, SHOCKED!!!!!!!

02-10-2008, 11:54 AM	#4
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	"....hopefully will be defeated based on its numerous flaws, the chief one being that it is unenforceable. Proponents claim that marine patrol could use radar guns to accurately track boat speeds. Last summer, Salmon Press actually went out on the water to test this theory, with the help of the Gilford Police Department, and found that the radar guns almost always inaccurately clocked the test boat's speed,..." So it seems the Meredith News thinks the data collected by the MP in the speed zones last summer are invalid. Just pointing out one of those "you can't have it both ways" things. The other one I like is that "the speed study shows nobody is speeding". Contrasted with "enforcement will be impossible, cost a fortune, ruin the economy.

02-10-2008, 12:54 PM	#7
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	If they are "true neophytes attempting to operate in a totally unfamiliar environment" then their opinions of the need for speed limits are equally suspect.

02-10-2008, 02:36 PM	#9
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Okay BI, here are some stats for you to enjoy First, the 2006 NEW HAMPSHIRE boating stats! Goodness, it appears to have already been posted (and ignored by supporters of speed limits) on this very forum by Woodsy! http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=4283 Now, how about those Coast Guard stats for 2006 whose summary you quoted? The state by state breakout starts on page 23. http://uscgboating.org/statistics/Bo...stics_2006.pdf Now go ahead and cross reference the two documents. 5 of the 6 fatals in NH were drownings, 2 when boats sank and 3 while jumping or falling off a boat. The 6th was a hit and run on Goose Pond! There was ONE accident on Lake Winnipesaukee at a speed over the limit proposed by HB 847. A person on a Personal Water Craft fell while doing 49mph. There was a second incident listed as Excessive Speed during a sharp turn. Gee, you mean the Marine Patrol actually uses the Excessive Speed for the conditions regulation? I thought you speed limit advocates said it was too vague??? So where are all the speeding Go Fast boats that are sending you into a panic and making Winnipesaukee the most dangerous body of water on the planet???? Looks like they are boating safely and enjoying themselves. The Marine Patrol did research and found that less than 1% of the boats they clocked were above the proposed limits and certainly none were operating in a dangerous or negligent manner or they would have been arrested. The only fear on Lake Winnipesaukee is the fear that has been artificially generated by Winnfabs and the "get the Go Fast boats off our lake" crowd.

02-10-2008, 04:16 PM	#12
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,984 Thanks: 246 Thanked 743 Times in 443 Posts	Arwen Evenstar is a character in the Lord of the Rings trilogy. She's the elf played by Liv Tyler in the movie. The odds of "Arwen" not being "Evenstar" are pretty slim. I don't think she's trying to hide her Internet identity by calling herself one or the other. It's not like those are obscure books...

02-11-2008, 12:50 AM	#21
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Wolfman, while you are aboslutely correct nothing is going to change. Are you going to give up your gains in life? I'm not. *SPEED LIMITS ON WINNIPESAUKEE* This is not a Democrat vs Republican issue. As the late Tip O'Neil once accurately said, all politics is local...My voters say X then I vote X or have to explain myself...explanifications are difficult This issue is about a group of folks, some property owners on Lake Winnipesaukee, that initially thought they saw a problem and tried to address it. Unfortunately for them the facts did not back up their efforts (In my opinion) but they are to the point where backing down is not an option. When those folks started their campaign it encouraged "us" to look at what they were saying and defend our actions. Fortunately for "us" our actions do not rise to the level that "they" contend is a problem. (Again, in my opinion) I suggest that both sides back off! The Pro and Con side take a break and NH Legislators stand down and wait. Why? 2008 is the first year that all boaters in NH are required to have passed a safe boating certificate course. That means, for the first time in the boating history of Lake Winnipesaukee and the State of NH, all boaters will have been certified. Let's see what happens. Airwaves, Out

02-11-2008, 07:59 AM	#22
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,984 Thanks: 246 Thanked 743 Times in 443 Posts	Not a Nickleback fan, (unless the offense is in shotgun with three+ wide, and down two touchdowns), but I think that Rocks Star song is supposed to be tongue in cheek.

02-11-2008, 08:57 AM	#26
froggy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Viewing Winnipesaukee Posts: 100 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	CLA is exactly correct - the lack of respect is everywhere, not just in boating. The roads, the ski slopes, and on and on. I've been skiing since the 50's, but I don't enjoy it any longer with the lack of respect on the slopes; have not skied in three years cuz.....! The highways are equally bad; in my driver ed, we were taught to travel right and pass on left! The reverse happens now. Signs are gone that used to depict the rules. In Europe you'd receive large fines for not traveling right. Even law enforcement vehicles disobey "rules of the road"! Boaters: again, I grew up in a boating family and we respected others on the water. Some new boaters think "they own it all". The marinas "sell" the boats with no orientation to operation and/safety. It all comes to the lack of respect & common sense. PS: "Just ANOTHER ...... TAXPAYER that is NOT allowed to VOTE!" This phrase is everywhere: not just NH; Vail, CO second home owner who resides in CA or TX. Cape Cod cottage owner, who resides in NYC! MD or NJ shore second home owner who resides in VA or Wash, DC. It's all over! Give me a break!

02-11-2008, 12:42 PM	#31
JayDV Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Fairfield, CT & island vacation Posts: 97 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It sounds like most of us are in agreement about a few basic things: 1) Many people in today's society display and/or practice a lack of respect for others, their rights, properties or rules and laws. 2) Some of those people share boating priveleges with people that go above and beyond safe boating practices and cause some of them to be afraid. 3) There are several documented instances where poor boating skills or flagrant disrespect of the laws caused serious property and bodily damage or worse, loss of life. 4) Many of the existing rules/laws are difficult to enforce due to manpower, cost, weather conditions or boating traffic. 5) If enforcement officers were visible, then boaters would more than likely obey the boating rules/laws as written in the boating handbook. The above is basic and I tried to cover all aspects. Obviously I might have mis-stated some things. This one I am throwing in: At what point is "speeding" speeding? Would jack rabbit acceleration to just above the limit then backing off speeding (like water skiing where you can travel more than headway speed within 150 ft of land)? Is speeding like the old turnpike ticket tolls where you get your card at time X and if you cross given exit by time X+"y" you were speeding? But if you travel 100 mph and stop for coffee before you get to the exit are you still speeding? Given the above, I still think the time has arrived for technical solutions. I was watching a Discovery Channel show on Sharks and how they tag them with transmitters to track the sharks' life of wanderings. The group also drops "receivers" around the area that record the shark's tag data everytime it comes within 1/4 mile of the "receiver". This information can be uploaded to a passing "data collector" station and stored for data queries later. This scenario could be applied to lakes as well. The sharks could be all boats registered to be on NH waterways. In addition to the "receivers" dropped throughout the lake there could be receiver/transmitter sensors mounted atop buoys. With this equipment in place the computers could work 24 hrs a day gathering data. The types of data could be modified later but could range from boat registration # (or not), boat activity (speed, proximity to other boats/land) to weather and water information. Then with all the information gathered, decisions could be made about deciding where problem areas may exist (excessive speeds for narrow waterways, close proximity to public swimming areas, scheduled sanctioned events, activities of existing businesses, camps, etc.). The above mentioned excessive speeds would be monitored by boats passing the buoys and the times recorded much the same as the highway patrol monitors speeders by timing the vehicles between markings on the highways. When areas become identified, then rules could be placed on those areas. Maybe Bizer maps or color-coded buoys would be the way to get the info out to the boaters. With this kind of 24/7 monitoring going on, then everyone would know that their boating manners are being watched. Once the equipment is in place, the uses could be expanded or reduced. After a reasonable data gathering period of time then it could be decided whether limits need to be in place and what they should be. The buoy-top sensors can scan passing craft to verify they have registered sensors or notify marine patrol of boater equipment malfunction for spot checks. These can be set up for yearly re-evaluation based on the running historical data. Severe problem areas would warrant patrol officers present. Otherwise, the marine patrol lake personnel could stay as it is. The information would be collected by impartial outside agency who would be audited by a state committee. The NH Dept of Safety would control the data queries and make requests available to general public. All of this may be a bit involved, but look at all the debate over statistic gathering or which group has more political clout, or even naming pulic personnel and questioning their integrities? We know computers can work 24/7. We know facts don't lie. We trust computers to do a lot more than I've listed here. And as far as the Bib Bro fear, we know the technical equipment the Gov't uses is far more advanced than what the general public is allowed to have, but imagine how much detail they access "currently" when we can only see Google Earth images from several months ago.

02-11-2008, 01:06 PM	#33
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,984 Thanks: 246 Thanked 743 Times in 443 Posts	I dunno JayDV, sounds like solution in search of a problem. This is Winnipesaukee, not some over-crowded, lawless lake. The boating in Winnipesaukee as actually quite pleasant and relaxing and people are generally well-behaved. With the slightly tightened requirements for getting a boating license and the general downturn in the boating industry, the lake will get generally less crowded and the boaters will be generally better behaved.

02-11-2008, 01:15 PM	#35
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	Passing on the right in NH... Off topic, but to close this line out it is permissible to pass on the right in NH under the following conditions (and RSA)... 265:19 When Overtaking on the Right is Permitted. – The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions: I. When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn; II. Upon a roadway with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width for 2 or more lines of vehicles moving lawfully in the direction being traveled by the overtaking vehicle; III. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the roadway.

02-11-2008, 02:00 PM	#36
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,925 Thanks: 476 Thanked 691 Times in 387 Posts	JayDV, Creative solution, but to be honest with you I think it would be cheaper and more effective to just charge everyone who wants to launch a boat in Lake Winnipesaukee $250 each time they launch. It would reduce the number of boats and solve most of the problems the SL crowd is complaining about. Boats that are in for the season could be charged $1000. No boats, including kayaks, canoes sailboats paddleboats would be exempt. Price everyone out of the market, return the lake to the days of fish and frogs.

02-11-2008, 02:26 PM	#38
JayDV Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Fairfield, CT & island vacation Posts: 97 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	DaveR - You may be right about solution in search for problem today. But tomorrow may not be all that far away. ITD - Interesting approach, but that may boot out the year-round residents that may not have the vancy metropolis area salaries. And those island folk that come up every other weekend? I remember how the lake was back in 1962 when I was first allowed to take the family motorr boat for a quick spin around the island. Didn't matter what day, the center of the lake wasn't crowded at all. In those 40 years boating has changed and the boaters have changed a lot. The future will probably bring many more changes to the quantity of boats and the quality of boating unless some sort of monitoring system is initiated. Similar to those trip wires across our roads to check cars travelling and speeds travelled so that towns can upgrade the road or initiate enforcement patrols. The system is in place and only subject to "how do we use it?" questions. Also, once initiated, the go forward costs shold be minimal. The collection system can be for all lakes and waterways simultaneously so from the state perspective, not a lot of personnel or locations to utilize.

02-11-2008, 05:28 PM	#42
JayDV Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Fairfield, CT & island vacation Posts: 97 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Woodsy - Just a couple of clarifications from my post. #2. Some of the people (from #1) share the lake (and could be counted as Capt Boney) with the good boating fold that go above and beyond friendly boatin practices. I think that keeping everyone fully accountable for their actions (where no one can get away with goofing around, or arrogant boating) then you don't have to restrict any specific kind of boat or horsepower, although that can still be an imperitive if poor boating practices were proven to continue. The manpower wouldn't have to be increased for enforcement. The sensors can gather the data and similar to the auto radar or toll running cameras (now also seen on some city stoplights to catch those vehicles running yellows). The software can simply mail the infraction with detailed timestamp and infraction data to the registrants address (the registrant would be held responsible for any infractions while not in his/her use). A simple strike 3 concept and stricter enforcement penalties could apply. Or not. These rules could be adapted based on how the boating traffic handles themselves BEFORE enforcement steps in. Treat people respectfully and they will respect others, at least until data collected proves otherwise. These infractions could be speeds exceeding NWZ, or headway within 150' of others. I'm sure that any waterway of less than 400x800 had an allowable designated speed most people would not object because it really would be common sense. This would cover many of the waterways between isands not NWZ or speed limited. I'm guessing at costs here but if a buoy-top unit costs $200 for 100 buoys(?) and a submersible unit costs $250 for another 100 points that would be $45,000. If the data was collected by independant firm, the "fee" would be fixed and reportings would be a fee for so many reports. I'm sure the details would reveal what I missed, but so far my conception has the lake covered for a one-time start-up cost of $45,000 and yearly costs to be recouped by infraction fees. This data can also be used to fortify court cases or lawsuits and would warrant a processing fee from the prosecution/defense atty. As they do every winter, the buoys come out and get reused. Penalties for damaging state property would help to keep Capt Boney from straying from the straight and narrow. I really hate telling people they ["can't use their fast boat wide open because (although it may not be you) someone may some day, almost cause an accident so we just restrict everyone's usage"] until that time when it becomes the last resort. At which time, I would concede Bear Islander's point and allow him that, which he would never do, the good ol' "I knew that"

02-11-2008, 06:04 PM	#43
KonaChick Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 518 Thanks: 19 Thanked 62 Times in 15 Posts	Where are all the pro speed limit people?? I at least have to give BI credit for standing his ground and not backing down his position, but I thought there would be a lot more pro speed limit people posting other than BI and Evenstar especially with the bill moving forward as it has.

02-11-2008, 06:39 PM	#45
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	I get it now. I was not following the logic. The idea is that if you get rid of high-performance boaters the average level of competence goes down. Even if true, it's more than offset by the reality that Capt. Bonehead and his 1,700 HP Nortech at 130 mph can do a lot more damage than the same idiot at 170 HP. Let's not forget that safety is only one issue. There are other reasons we need speed limits.

02-11-2008, 07:26 PM	#46
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Well.... The way I see it a boat is a boat is a boat... Whether a 16 foot 170hp or a 1,700HP Nortech, no man woman or beast stands a chance in a Rowboat, Kayak, or Canoe. Matter of fact I trust the seasoned boater in the $500,000 1,700HP boat over the noob in the 170HP 16 footer with his face buried in the map. As for the other reasons, I just don't think it is a constitutional and fair way to control the growth and overcrowded nature that the lake is headed towards. I believe a new and creative approach is needed to curtail the growth. I do agree that the lake can only support so much traffic and it needs looking into. I just disagree with singling out one dynamic that hasn't done anything wrong. Do you at least concede that point? I mean we are punishing one particular group of boaters when no crime was committed. Does that even phase any speed limit supporters? I know you dislike those boats but dislike isn't a good enough reason to enact law.

02-11-2008, 07:35 PM	#48
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,738 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	Time will tell....it always does....a senate decision could be five weeks away. In 2006, HB162 passed the house on Feb 2, and died in the senate on March 16. Say, March 16, that's the day before Saint Patty's Day, so the winners can go celebrate, and the losers can go drown their sorrow. Anythings possibe; the senate could amend it to cover the entire state and not just Winnipesaukee, or could make it effective on April 1........april fools day.......hmmm!.......april fools....aha...! My money says it gets passed by 16-8, as the senate has 14 D's & 10 R''s, which would reflect the 236-111 house vote. When HB162 died in the senate, there were xx R's & xx D's, (forgot that item). ...and then, it's on to the governor's desk....and what he may do is very much an unknown.... __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

02-11-2008, 08:23 PM	#50
CanisLupusArctos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,049 Thanks: 15 Thanked 472 Times in 107 Posts	better enforcement of existing laws It is time we had some better law enforcement on the lake. When I worked as a full-time ambulance EMT in the Boston area I very quickly learned the difference between a public safety professional who's an experienced realist and one who's new and inexperienced. On this lake, we've traditionally had a Marine Patrol that's new and inexperienced, and it often shows. The offenders (and even many law-abiding people) don't take them seriously as a result. The purpose of this isn't to knock the NHMP because for years this lake never needed anything more than glorified security guards in boats. That is what a lot of NHMP officers are. No fault to them - every new officer has to start somewhere. The purpose of this post is to say that the time has come for something more than security guards in boats... we need officers with experience and a better reputation. Here's an idea for discussion... how about ending the NH Marine Patrol, and replacing it with a "NH State Police/Marine Division?" The rationale? The state troopers already have a motorcycle division, an aviation division, and an equestrian division (horsies). Fill the Marine positions with existing state troopers. One might ask, "What would they do in winter?" The answer is, "Whatever the motorcycle Staties do in winter." You don't see much of them once the weather gets cold. Re-paint the boats green with gold lettering just like the cruisers. Change the name on the side of the boat from "Marine Patrol" to "State Trooper." Let the smokeybear in the boat wear his division's own variation of the green & gray uniform, just as the bikey division does. I should emphasize that the State Trooper boats should be captained by officers who have enough experience to know the law AND common sense, who know when to get aggressive and when to be nice. At the same time, perhaps the towns could get into the act of enforcing the laws of the water. When you speed along I-93 in Tilton, (example), you risk being pulled over by a state trooper OR the Tilton Police. The same should be true of Winni's bays, where the boat traffic is most concentrated. Have Laconia PD drive around on Paugus Bay, Meredith PD in their town's bay, Alton PD in Alton Bay, etc... Granted, there are some people who will offend no matter what, but my guess is that if Capt. Bonehead started having run-ins with State Troopers on the water, and occasionally an on-water ticket from Laconia's finest, he'd get the message. Maybe he'd even take his act elsewhere. It's not just about Capt. Bonehead, either. This lake's summer scene is starting to involve other types of crime that we haven't seen on the lake in the past - drug trafficking, for example. It all points to our need for better law enforcement on the water. I'm not in favor of making the lake a police state, I'd just like to see the same police presence that exists anywhere else in the state where lots of people gather.

02-11-2008, 09:20 PM	#53
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,738 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	Last year when I stopped into the Glendale Marine Patrol headquarters to register a boat, I took a couple minutes to look at the job opportunities for seasonal MP officers. Before an individual is accepted into the preliminary training program they have to qualify themselves by passing a physical fitness test and psychological oriented interview. The brochure described the physical fitness tests and there was no question in my mind that it was a difficult test. It included having to run so far in a set time limit, pushups, situps, bench presses, all prorated according to one's age. Performance motorboating, as opposed to paddling a kayak, does not promote physical fitness. Many a performance boater would easily have a very difficult, if not impossible, time passing the MP's fitness test that prequalifies him/her for their training program. After all, moving that gasoline throttle is hardly an aerobic workout. Neither is lifting a can of beer that's disquised as a can of soda! __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

02-11-2008, 09:55 PM	#54
luckypete Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: cow island Posts: 27 Thanks: 33 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	The many faces of Capt. Bonehead Greetings to one and all, We spend our summers on the big lake in a no wake zone. Apparently, the aforementioned capt has an entire flotilla of watercraft. I've witnessed the capt. piloting his kayak successfully into the path of an oncoming boat, causing the other boat to test his emergency stop/reverse skills. The capt. also likes fishing. His 17 ft bass boat with a 200 hp is a joy to behold. One time i watched him scream at another boater who came to close to the captains fishing line, even though the capt was trolling through a very narrow channel. The captain also owns and operates a beautiful vintage wooden powerboat, complete with mahogany, brass and vintage flags. However, apparently boats of this era are not equipped with either speedometers or the ability to turn one's head and observe the rather impressive wake being generated. The Captain is, of course, a family man. Spending time on the water in his bowrider while pulling all the baby captains around on their obrien ski tubes is the captains idea of quality family time. The good times do suffer a bit when the captain realizes that his progeny are in serious trouble of not carrying on the family name because he has not noticed that the tots have fallen off the tube and are floating in the aforementioned narrow channel during the July 4th weekend. The Captain is also a big time sailor. I've seen the captain navigate the channel under full sail, not lowering the mainsail a bit or even lowering his standards and using the engine. No sir, the captain just screamed at every other boater about his right of way, "i'm a boat under sail, therefore I have the right of way". You gotta love the captain's intricate understanding of navigational law, don't you? Finally, and most importantly, the captain is a loving husband. One way the captain displays his love is to operate his 24' center console at 15 to 20 mph through the no wake zone. When I displayed the universal sign for "what the heck are you doing" (arms outstretched, palms facing upward, shoulders shrugging) the captain's wife responded, "I'm sick to my stomach". Perhaps the captains piloting skills are not really what they should be after all. Maybe next year he'll buy another boat!

02-12-2008, 08:11 AM	#58
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,738 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	.., jogging - pushups - situps ... The point I want to make is that it is difficult to become a seasonal Marine Patrol officer. They have to pass a difficult physical fitness test at the start before proceeding with the training program. The test gets prorated according to one's age, and I know for a fact that 96.5% of the performance boaters on Lake Winnipesaukee would FLUNK the test. And yes. the kayakers would have a PASSING rate of 89.5%. So go place that factoid in your carburetor and compress it! __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

02-12-2008, 12:21 PM	#61
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	Ha ha GWC, Seriously last summer I had more than just one run in with this guy. One time coming out of Wolfeboro bay he passed me at about 30MPH he was about 25-35 feet off my Port side. I gave the universal hands in the air shrug gesture for W.T.F. He replied with the universal shrug sign for huh? Ironic that he supports a speed limit when he doesn't even know how to drive a boat in the first place.

02-12-2008, 12:58 PM	#62
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	The "universal shrug" sign is open to interpretation. I prefer the "finger twirl around ear" gambit. This can be emphasized by converting it to a "point at offender" maneuver. Anybody know the sign for "find a rule book and read it" I really need that one!

02-12-2008, 02:14 PM	#64
COWISLAND NH Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm so glad we have the opportunity to be at the lake when all the bone head captains go home (April, May, Sept & Oct).....MP doesn't even look twice at us go fast boats when were out having fast safe fun. Livin on an island isn't for everyone, but it beats boating near the bone head capts. when their driving to close and scared out of their minds....pass the law....we'll be out before MP even see us >>PASS YA LATER (150 feet that is)!!!!!!

02-12-2008, 03:48 PM	#65
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	lake dangers I have posted on this about speed limits, and I have read other peoples remarks, and all seem to make sense to one degree or another. People say that performance boats are a problem, that they drive others off the lake or scare them. I have owned an 11' boat with an 18 hp Johnson, and to me that was a high performance boat, and I think the capt of the Mount would say it was a pest or a pain in the well never mind. as the mount very seldom went to Alton bay without that as an escort jumping its waves, and crossing the bow. To be young and stupid. But today I operate a 16'6" boat with a 115 Hp on it, I chase the mount once and a while, but not like I used to. Heck the waves are not big enough anymore. While I do not like grouping anybody in a cluster (capt bonehead) there seems to be much about it. But they are not in any size boat, or jetski they are not just in powerboats, sailboats or kayaks, but they are in every type of boat out there. The ones that give us perhaps the biggest headaches don't even own the boat that they are driving, they rent it. They have no clue as to how to operate them just point and steer. Oh the rest of us have problems, but I think we learn. I think today, as I am just a shade more mature than I was with my 11' that I drive my boat defensively by looking out for the other boaters and try to keep my 150' of space. I wish others would do the same.

02-12-2008, 09:33 PM	#67
Seeker Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Effingham Posts: 408 Thanks: 37 Thanked 19 Times in 15 Posts	geezer, the snowmobile limit is 45mph on regular trails, 10 mph on streets, and there are a few lakes with nighttime sped limits e.g. back Lake 35mph at night.

02-12-2008, 09:42 PM	#68
Seeker Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Effingham Posts: 408 Thanks: 37 Thanked 19 Times in 15 Posts	Since I've figured out how to type again I'll make one comment on the speed limit war. Just to let you know I am against it and I've written to my Senator Kenney to voice my opinion. I won't get into his reply other than to say it implied the opponents, myself included, are not organized and the proponents are making all the noise and ergo they will prevail. What we say here on this forum is just bs. We need to write our senators NOW and voice our opinions. I don't own a go fast boat but I support their rights.