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#1 | |
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The NH Leislature considers all sorts of things. Given the current political mood about global warming (and oil shortages), I would be very surprised if that bill gets very far.
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#2 |
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I am more frightened by a boat going 20 mph and not paying attention than a boat going 60. For some reason they always seem to be paying keen attention to what is ahead of them.
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#3 | |
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A lake speed limit is enforceable - I've never even suggested that it wasn't. I've personally witnessed enforcement of a speed limit on Squam. Is it 100% enforceable? No. But neither are highway speed limits. The only reason that I'm so pro-speed limit is that I've seen first hand how dangerous it can be to mix high speed boats with paddlers. And I've seen how much having a speed limit can improve this situation. In my opinion, reducing the difference between the speeds of the fastest boats and the slowest boats is one of the best ways to make any body of water safer for everyone. I just wish that the bill hadn't been amended so that Wini was the only lake affected by it.
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#4 | |
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A win-win for all. The amended bill would protect you (you seem to be partial to the government protecting you) and allow life, as it has been for many, many decades at the Lake, to continue.
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#5 | |
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My grandfather kayaked on wini. Paddlers were here for hundreds of years before powerboats, so if you're suggesting squatter's rights, we would win. From RSA 270:1 "II. In the interest of maintaining the residential, recreational and scenic values which New Hampshire public waters provide to residents of the state and to the promotion of our tourist industry, and in light of the fact that competing uses for the enjoyment of these waters, if not regulated for the benefit of all users, may diminish the value to be derived from them, it is hereby declared that the public waters of New Hampshire shall be maintained and regulated in such way as to provide for the safe and mutual enjoyment of a variety of uses, both from the shore and from water-borne conveyances." ffice ![]() Eisenhower, Dwight D. 34th president of the ffice:smarttags" /> A speed limit law does not ban anyone from using the lake. All it will do is require a the fastes powerboaters to slow down, which the proponents of the bill feel will make the lake safer. lace>
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#6 | |
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So, why is it that you are not able to enjoy the Lake, as did your grandfather, without government intervention to protect you?
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#7 | |||
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My grandfather was in the NH Legislature, and I'm certain that if he was still alive and still there, that he would vote for HB 847. Without laws (what you call government intervention), we would have anarchy. Laws exist to ensure fairness (at least this is what they were originally meant to do). I see a lake speed limit as fairness, since it doesn't ban any boaters, but just requires the fastest ones to slow down. Your idea of fairness is to kick the paddlers off the lake. You seem to believe that those with the most horsepower have some sort of inherent right over other boaters. I don't see that as a right. Few paddlers can keep up with me, including most guys. The maximum sustained speed for a sea kayak is about 6 mph - and the average recreational kayaker can only paddle at about 3 mph, which is 15 times slower than a 45 mph powerboat. Quote:
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#8 | |||
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Unfortunately for you, your super-human strength was not accompanied with eagle-like vision and super hearing so that you can notice these motorized nuisances and avoid danger... ![]() Quote:
![]() Since a customer of mine in Singapore decided to wake me up at 2:30am to spread some cheer I might as well spread mine here. A new thought... Why don't we start a new law that curbs pollution on the lake by prohibiting any boats (be it paddle, sail or motorized) that does not have bathroom facilities? Something tells me that these thousands of paddlers out on the lake have to "go" at some point. Where is it ending up? In the lake. Maybe this is the answer as to why pollution is up and water quality is down. ![]() |
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#9 | |
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#10 | |
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May I respectfully suggest you simply paddle faster ![]()
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#11 | ||
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Evanstar, you're killing me here. How many times have you been on the Lake, 5, 10, 15, 20 ??????? We've established before that your first time on the lake was a year or two ago. Now you imply how many close encounters you've had with "high speed" boats. Give me a break. I too "paddle" on the lake, for a lot longer than you have. I have NEVER had a close encounter with a speeding boat, or any boat for that matter and I paddle in some busy areas. I find it very hard to believe that you have had so many close encounters. I seriously doubt you've had any close encounters and if you have, it was with a boat traveling travelling under 30 mph. Quote:
No wonder Don has had to replace his server with all the hot air the speed limit proponents cycle through it. ![]() |
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#12 | |||||
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And I’ve seen plenty of boats on Winni that were going faster than 45 MPH. If all the powerboats on the lake are traveling at under 45 mph, why is there so much opposition to this bill? Quote:
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You guys crack me up. You are actually suggesting that my supposed need to pee in the lake is more harmful to the environment than a powerboat’s gas powered engine.
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#13 | |
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Without taking the time to read every one of your previous posts I can honestly say that you have without a doubt cast an illusion to all of us that your close calls were on Winni and that this is a terrifying place to be. You have also tripped over yourself insinuating that you have been on Winni countless times yet in another post it has come out that you have not truly spent much time on this place many of us call home. So, which lakes have you had the close calls on? How many others in NH are truly big enough for high speed traffic or actually have any high speed traffic anyhow? Without looking it up, what are the 4 largest lakes in the state and what is their size comparison to Winnipesaukee? Let me get you started. The next closest lake to Winnipesaukee in size is your beloved Squam. If your close calls took place there then your speed limit is not working. Squam is considerably shallower and rockier than Winni and also only 15% of the size. Big difference. How many 38' fountains have you seen on Squam? On Ossipee? Umbagog? Newfound? the Connecticuits? Winnisquam? Massabesic? Having been on many of these lakes myself I have not seen a speed issue other than an occasional rogue bass boat going for a beer run. After Squam the next closest lake in size is 10% of the size on Winni. Please tell us where your close calls have occurred so we can hand you a shovel to dig a deeper hole. How about your car or are you a peddler and a paddler? How many close calls have you had on the NH highways yet as previously mentioned there has been discussion of raising the speed limits??? |
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#14 | ||||
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I just found it humorous that that you needed to stoop so low as to try to make an environmental issue out of my supposed need to pee in the lake, in an attempt to poke fun at me. My intentions here are only to support a lake speed limit because I honestly believe that one of the best ways to make the lake safer is to slow down the fastest boats. I have the right to support this bill – just as you have the right to oppose it. But you don’t have the right to make personal attacks on me. Quote:
I have paddled over 500 miles on NH's lakes in the past two summers - many of these miles was on Winni. My best friend and I had our first close call with a high-speed powerboat the very first time that we kayaked on the lake. Since that episode I’ve had a difficult time convincing her to kayak on Winni. I've always been comletely honest here - I’ve never once insinuated anything. In my very first post I openly stated that I had never kayaked on Winni before – which is why I originally joined this forum – to learn more about kayaking on the lake. I’ve never once implied that Winni is a terrifying place – if it was, I would not kayak on it. I merely stated that I feel is very dangerous to allow powerboats to continue to travel at unlimited speed on a lake that is also used by small human-powered boats. Quote:
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#15 | |
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The personal attack song is getting old too. The world doesn't revolve around you, no one is "personally" attacking you. You know this is a passionate subject, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. I won't stand idly by and let you post all these stories of mayhem and danger when I can pretty much guarantee that over the past 10 years I have spent more time on the lake than you and I know that your portrayal is wrong. Your chance of having all these "close encounters" with boats going over 45 mph is pretty much nil since most boats travel the lake at less than 45 mph. That means these "close encounters" you have had are with boats going less than the proposed speed limit ergo the speed limit will not help you. |
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#16 | |||
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I have had closed calls with powerboats going faster than 30 mph. You don't have to believe me, but since you were not there, how can you be so sure that it didn't happen? The world doesn't revolve around you either - yet you have this attitude that, if you haven't experienced it, it could not have happened to anyone else. I don't really care how much time you have stent on Winni in the part 10 years - I'm not talking about the last 10 years. But I doubt that you have kayaked any where near as many miles on NH lakes as I have in the past 3 summers - which is when I've had the close calls with powerboats - both on Wini and on other NH lakes. If you can't have a civil debate without resorting to personal attacks, you have no business being part of the debate.
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#17 | ||
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"They" said the same thing to me when I started the thread "Close Call Today". When I finally located that thread-starter just now, I found one "Go-Fast" has a problem obeying New Hampshire's boating navigation laws. Guess who that might be? ![]() ![]() HINT: Quote:
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#18 | |
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I don't believe your story, even though it sounds like you do. Statistically, what you believe is happening to you, just isn't possible, unless the Department of Safety is lying. Refer to this report: http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/s...rveyreport.pdf From the actual results, eleven (11) boats out of 3800+ were clocked at a speed above 50 mph, eleven. This is over 135 hours of checking. Now they don't specify if those eleven came by in one group or if they occurred randomly throughout the case. I will assume that they occurred randomly throughout the test, because that's the best case for your stories. So if they occurred randomly we could spread out the occurances and say that once for every 10 hours of testing, a boat went by at greater than 50 mph. Not very good for your stories. I want to be fair here, so in the report it states that 36 boats were clocked at greater than 45 mph, less than 1% of the total, but still better for your stories (many "close calls" on the lake). Again we'll assume they randomly occur throughout the test (better for your stories) so over 135 hours, you might see 1 boat over 45mph in about 3 hours. So now lets talk about a close call. A close call, as you describe them to bolster your pro SL view, would have to be a boat, travelling greater than 45 mph, coming closer than 150 ft to your kayak, just like you say in one of your posts. So I've laid out the case, for your "close call", in the hours that you are out there, if 100 boats go by you (unlikely), the one that is going over 45 mph comes within 150 feet of your kayak (which is extremely unlikely). Now to claim this has happened many times, well I'm calling BS. I think you were legitimately scared per one of your posts, ON THE CONNETICUT RIVER, years ago. This has messed up your perception of power boats to the point that you think they are all travelling above 45mph and within 150 feet of you. It just can't be true. Enacting a law, on faulty perceptions, totally ignoring a study that determines there isn't a problem is nuts. I'm telling you now, a 45 mph speed limit isn't going to help you. |
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#19 | ||
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Based on a 10-hour boating day, the 11 weeks in this study add up to 770 hours (10 hours x 11 weeks x 7 days/week), yet speeds were only recording over 135 hours. And that’s a total of 135 MAN HOURS – for all the sample areas combined. If all 9 sample areas were covered equally, speeds were recorded in each area for a total of only 15 hours over the entire summer – which is less than 2% of the daytime boating hours for this 11 week period. 98% of the time, at each of the study sites, speeds of boats were not being recorded at all. And this is assuming that only one officer was present at the time (But the report leads me to believe that two officers were likely present: “In high traffic areas it would be prudent for safety purposes if radar is employed, to have two officers in the vessel, one concentrating on the radar and the other focused on the patrol boat operation and it’s relationship to other vessels.”) If two officers were present all the time, this further reduces the total recorded time to less than 1% of the daylight boating time. So, at best, speeds were recorded during only 2% of the total daylight boating hours. And yet 11 boats were still recorded at speeds of over 50mph. If we assume that this is a fair sampling (as you seem to be suggesting), these 11 boats actually translate into an estimated 539 boats that were traveling at speeds over 50 mph (over the entire 770 total daylight boating hours during the 11 weeks of the study). And that’s just in the sample areas of the lake! What about the rest of the lake? So, based on the study, approximately 539 boats were traveling at speeds over 50 mph last summer – just within just the study area. Isn’t it possible that some of these boats may have not seen a certain sea kayak until they were closer than 150 feet?
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#20 | |
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The solid fact remains that out of 3852 boats less than 1% were speeding. That is hard to argue. I can spit out hypothesis all afternoon (although I bet MeenMac is already working on it ![]() The study was done during the busy end of the summer, and clearly was concentrated on busier days of the week and daylight hours. If you have spent as much time on the lake as many of us do this may be easier to comprehend. Show up on a Monday afternoon and what do you get? An empty lake. Rainy days? No traffic at all. You did not add any factor in for bad weather days into your calculations. Chances are the concentration of studies was done during busier times in order to achieve catching 3852 boats on radar. Do you think they zapped every boat that went by? Probably not. Multiple boats going by at the same time cannot all be clocked effectively. My house is right around the corner from Area A so I was able to witness first hand how much they were there and the traffic involved. It is a very busy zone, one of the busiest on the lake which is why it was chosen. So isn't Area B. I am sure they clocked me a few times. There are so many different factors that could be thrown in to this that I am not even touching on. They did their job, give them a break. The results were inconclusive of any speed issue. Feel free to analyze away though! |
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#21 | |
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You're joking right??? Are you suggesting the only valid study is one that covers the whole lake for the whole summer? 3800+ boats is a pretty significant sample and should give a pretty clear indication of what is happening on the lake. You lost me on your discussion of Man hours. If there were two people on the boat for 135 hours, then that would result in 270 Man hours of labor. Not really relevant unless you want to discuss what the study cost. All your spin, and shaky analysis still doesn't negate the fact that only 1 out of 100 boats was going over 45 mph. Certainly not the "wild west" talked about by speed limit proponents. I'm going to give you a piece of advice that might save your life someday. Quit worrying about boats going over 45 mph, they're not the problem. Keep your eye out for captain bonehead, tooling along at 25 mph in his pontoon boat sipping a martini watching the scenery. While you're straining to see that one speedboat zipping by at 50 mph, captain bonehead might just run you over, he's a much bigger threat and a speed limit won't deter him. But then this isn't really about safety is it. |
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1.) The data was collected during less than 2% of the daylight boating hours from July 1 to Sept 16th. 98% of the time data was not being collected. 2.) Only a small percentage of the lake was covered in the study. 3.) The study areas were chosen for their high volume of boat traffic - these are areas where high speeds are less likely to occur. 4.) Most of the data was collected on weekends – when traffic is the heaviest. I’ve never said that high-speed boats were the only boats I am concerned about – I’m very alert to all powerboats. But the faster boats have been the ones that have come the closest to running me over, so I see them as being the greatest threat. You can think whatever you like, but safety is MY only concern here. If speed is not an issue here, and so few boats are actually going faster than 45mph on Winni, why are so many of you against this bill? If it won’t affect your boating speeds at all, what’s the problem?
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#23 | |
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The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Many people enjoy speed. Owners of bass boaters, jet skis and ocean going craft persue speed as a form of happiness. Take a kid on a high-speed ride and most will return with a happy smile on their face. The problem is that some people are willing to deny others of this right based on fear and anger, not statistics. What right is next to be taken away.
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I think that everybody's rights can be looked too and safety be taken care of. As one that was in agreement with speed zones, not making no wake zones, but curtailing speed within Alton Bay, Wolfeboro, Weirs and other bays leaving the broads for speed, I think we can do away with the speeding issue if everybody that has a boat would agree to obey the 150' rule and other navigation rules. Plus remember courtesy toward your fellow man goes a long way. If those rules were obeyed by all whether it be a kayak, or a rum runner or anywhere inbetween then we would be having fun and a safer lake.
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Does a speed limit on route 93 violate your Constitutional Rights? |
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No, I don't feel road limits violate my rights. Over the years, excessive speed has been statistically linked to automotive deaths, so as a society, we have decided to evoke speed limits. The right to life trumps the right to happiness. Roads are engineered for safe speeds, and the limit is set with the engineering in mind, not fear and anger. My grandmother hated how people went 65 on the highway, so she took the backroads. Perhaps those that fear sharing the water with fast boats should stay within 150' from shore rather than extinguish other's rights.
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The most ironic part is the all the people who are calling foul on the results of the test (that was done by professionals) are the same people who would be swearing by it if the results went their way
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#29 | |
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You see the need for highway speed limits, so you rationalize that they don't violate you Constitutional Rights. You don't see the need for boating speed limits so you believe they violate your rights. The issues are EXACTLY the same. The right of the state to set speed limits. You said "as a society, we have decided to evoke speed limits" If the legislature passes HB847 and the Governor signs it into law, then we will have decided, as a society, to invoke boating speed limits. |
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Here's the difference.Cars are traveling on 93 only a few feet away from each other.In that scenerio a speed limit is prudent.On water you must be a MINIMUM of 150 ft apart or there IS a speed limit already of 6 mph.I know it's a bit of a strech but a better analogy would be like planes flying in almost any airspace.There are no speed limits there.
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However the question is about the constitutionality of setting speed limits, not the practical considerations. |
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I beg to differ, the study involved a sizeable sample across a broad section of the lake, more than adequate to represent what is really happening on a typical day on the lake. If you were as well versed in statistical sampling as you hint, you would understand this. I can guarantee that if the study showed that there was a problem on the lake you would be swearing up and down that the study was right. If your group's assertion that the lake has turned into the "wild west" was true then I would have expected at least let's say maybe 2 % of the boats to have been travelling more than 45 mph. Actually, from the press and comments posted by WInnfabbs I would have expected to see 30 or 40% of the boats to be traveling faster than 45mph. The study didn't show that because there is not a speed problem. Anyone with an ounce of integrity and actual experience on the lake would have to admit that speeding boats are just not a problem. Quote:
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From the Citizen: Gallagher said there were two areas chosen for temporary regulation of speed, including the southwest side of Rattlesnake Island, ranging to the main shore, as well as the area between Bear Island and Meredith Neck. He said the reason was because they were long areas with a fair amount of traffic. There also were several other areas surveyed, including Paugus Bay because it is a large area with boats mainly traveling past each other in opposite directions. Others were in Gilford between Governor's Island and Timber Island; Center Harbor; Moultonborough near the east side of Moultonborough Neck; between Cow and Little Bear islands; Tuftonboro Neck; and the end of Alton Bay, the part nearest to the main lake. And again wrong. The report includes a calendar that clearly indicates that the testing was done on both weekdays and weekends. In fact weekday tests outnumber weekend day tests by almost 2 to 1. How can you mess that up?????? You really need to stop... |
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[quote=ITD;61913]I beg to differ, the study involved a sizeable sample across a broad section of the lake, more than adequate to represent what is really happening on a typical day on the lake. If you were as well versed in statistical sampling as you hint, you would understand this. I can guarantee that if the study showed that there was a problem on the lake you would be swearing up and down that the study was right. If your group's assertion that the lake has turned into the "wild west" was true then I would have expected at least let's say maybe 2 % of the boats to have been travelling more than 45 mph./quote]
First of all, I’m not part of any pro-speed limit group. This is not a conspiracy – I’m simple a NH resident who believes that NH lakes need a reasonable speed limit. And I'm sick of you guys misrepresenting the facts here. For your information, I’ve taken a number of college courses on statistics – including Research Methodology just last semester – so I do know that the accuracy of any data sampling is largely dependant on the percentages involved. In any data collection the number of individuals studied is completely meaningless without knowing the size of the overall population that makes up the study group. The same is true for the time periods involved, and for anything else that might be a factor in a study (like weather, and time of day). The data collected is not considered viable unless it can be determined that it accurately represent the entire study group. And studies of this type are not even considered viable when members of the test population know about the study and the location of the study areas. You and others here try to use the report as magical proof that speed is not an issude. Do you expect anyone to believe that this study accurately determined the boat speeds on the entire lake over the entire summer? There just wasn't enough data collected to make the study viable (since only portions of the lake were covered, and data was collected during less than 2% of the daytime boating season). On top of that, the fact that radar was being used on the lake last summer was well published - along with the location of the study areas. No traffic study is ever considered viable when the public is aware that it is taking place. The report does not even give the statistical analysis of the data collected – if it had, then the percentages would have been factored into the analysis, and the degree of accuracy of the study would have been given. Quote:
How much data was collected out on the Broads?
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The study proves that you could not have possibly had as many "close calls" with speeding boats as you allude. Especially when you consider how few times you have been on the lake. What more could you possibly need to know about the population of the study that would be relevant? In any study, capturing 2% is a pretty good sample, if we accept the premise that hours of daylight is important, which it isn't......... As far as the accuracy of the study, even though I don't think it is true, let's suppose they missed 50% of the boats that were above 45, that would bump the total from 0.9% to 1.8%, still a very small number, so what????? You keep bombarding us with inaccurate info. only 2 out of 9 areas were published, so you are wrong again. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Common sense, a speed limt isn't going to help you. The only thing that will make you feel safe is a power boat ban, and that isn't going to happen. The world doesn't revolve around you. You should have learned this by now. Show me some data that supports a speed limit, you have none. Just a group of people using scare tactics. Tactics that have been exposed and pretty much admitted or shown as being untrue. When you see some actual data, you try to torpedo that, but you are foiled again.... |
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As far as your question...it could be turned around to ask if so few boats are speeding then why the need to ask the government to get involved in our lives for something that is only a problem for some. The fast boats are not asking to restrict where the slow boats can go so why do we need to restrict where they can go. If they can't maintain the 150 foot rule from shore and other vessels than we already have laws for that. I would much rather have the MP stopping captain bone head going 15mph at full wake and 75 feet from your kayak with 15 people on board. We see them all day on the island. We call them "Wakus Maximus". We have a law that they are violating 50 foot from my dock and 25 feet from my kids swimming, but the MP is behind the island trying to find the one fast boat in an hour. He is far from shore and making hardly any wake and paying keen attention. I remember the book, what color is your parachute. In this case, what color is your kayak? |
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Come on now guys , lets give Evenstar a break here. She's already pointed out how unsinkable and indestructable and made for BIG water a sea kayak is. She can paddle like no one else and at 20 years of age or so , I'm sure she knows everything there is to know. I know when I was that age I certainly did. The only thing she seems to fear are speeding boats. I wonder exactly what she considers a close call
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Cal, you might find this comment to an online Union Leader article of interest:
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So, the truth comes out. Mr. Pilliod is trying to eliminate fear by punishing the bad boys with the big boats. Now, what about the bass boats, which can go just as fast, but are much lighter and generally come with courteous pilots. Maybe the rules should be rewritten that no boat over two tons can go over 45. The bass contests are won by getting from one favorite bass hole to another before the competition. The boats are expensive, and computer designed to be stable at high speeds. One could (and some do) argue that nobody needs to go that fast, but that is opinion, not a reason for a law.
Jet skis are another craft that will be impacted by trying to get the 'big guys'. Some of them go 60 with ease, and it is the pursuit of happiness to do so. This type of craft causes more anger than fear, and lowering their speeds will do nothing to reduce anger. There are more fools driving them, but they are very maneuverable. There have been deaths on jet-skis, but speeds over 45 don't seem to be the cause. So since Mr. Pilliod says "It has to with a lack of courtesy on the part of the, I’ll call them ocean going vessels", then the law should not be so broad based against the freedom to persue happiness for those without the big boats.
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Some of you on this forum have referred to kayaks (and sea kayaks) as toys (or worse) - and you seem to think that a "real" boat has to have a high horse-power motor - and that only "real" boats should be allowed out on the main lake. Some of you feel that all kayakers are inexperinced boaters, and that we all get in major trouble whenever the lake gets a little rough. I've merely tried to present the other side here, as an experienced sea kayaker (there happens to be a LOT of us that paddle on NH lakes). I've stated several times what too close is - but here it is again: A close call when a powerboat, traveling at a high speed, is way closer than 150 foot of my kayak and is still traveling straight at me. I consider having less than a second to live a close call.
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Evenstar, I don't think people really mean to say you are lying. What they are saying is that your estimates and assumptions are wrong.
You say that you have personally witnessed speed enforcement on Squam, but we know that no one has ever been ticketed for speeding on Squam. So you must be mistaken or your definition of enforcement is different than mine. You say you've had many close call with boats going over 45 MPH, but you have no way to accurately measure their speed. So you are estimating. Since the statistics don't support your numbers, I tend to believe your estimates are wrong. When you made these estimates, you say that you were in great fear or a second from death. This is usually not a good frame of mind for accurate analytical thought. You say this happens to you often. Once again the statistics don't support that. So again your fear, may be coloring your memory. Or your definition of often is different than mine. OK one place that I think you are bending the truth. Are you saying that your grandfather kayaked in Winnipesaukee in the 1930's? So he had a kayak in NH in the 1930's? From what I've read about kayaks, the plans to build them didn't leave their native areas (Greenland and Alaska) until the 1950's and commericial production didn't start until the 1960's. |
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Tidwell, (an alias of old) is presently spamming out-of-state boating websites to overthrow deliberations by New Hampshire's Legislature. http://www.wmi.org/bassfish/bassboar...ics/T61402.htm http://www.ridepwc.com/blog/single/n...e_coming_soon/ http://www.bulletinboards.com/v1.cfm...eb357&expand=y http://www.topix.com/forum/city/lake...TI7IFJRDF0H251 http://bbcboards.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=243110 http://bbcboards.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=243113 (One of the above links proposes a new law on Long Lake against 500-HP boats.) Quote:
I keep two vintage Folbots on Winnipesaukee, but don't use them for a reason that could change by this summer. ![]() Quote:
Is there a danger to him (or her) that I can't see? ![]()
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I agree that the color choice is not the greatest for visibility, that much is true. Your spin on the visibility being bad for over-powered boats is crap, it is poor for all boats. |
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Here's hoping NH's Legislators are savvy-enough to grasp that.
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![]() The far shore (Port Wedeln) is about ¾ to 1-mile away—perhaps a casual 15-minute trip by kayak. At 70-MPH, the same trip in a speeding, excessively-powered boat would take about 35-seconds! ![]() So, which of these views most fairly represents the kayak's size to an ocean-racer speeding at a 70-MPH-clip? ![]() Quote:
A view through binoculars showed that she was singing! If you see a driver speeding at 70+ MPH on Winnipesaukee—and singing—everybody sharing the lake with that boater has a problem. ![]()
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Seems like you need to post a bigger picture. I mean he did see the kayak didn't he ...
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That's not what Live Free or Die means! Common sense is not traveling at high speeds on a lake that is populated by small, slow moving boats. It is not - this "get out of my way" additude. You're comparing kayaks on the lake to people crosing a street - well, guess what? Streets have speed limits!
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You have the right to enter the scene along with everyone else. Your choice of which freedoms to exercise will be moderated by your personal level and tolerance of fear. Suck it up. Chances are very good that you won't be hit.
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Evenstar... You do lots of everyday activites "At Your Own Peril"! Driving a car, crossing a street, riding a bicycle are all everyday activities that put YOU at risk of serious injury or death! A far greater risk than you have paddling on Lake Winnipesaukee on the BUSIEST of summer days! In all of those activities above, a 2000lb+ vehicle is passing within 10' of you at speed. Everyday people get injured or killed in NH as a result of those everyday activities! No kayaker has ever been struck and seriously injured or killed on Lake Winnipesaukee... EVER! Kayaking by its very nature is a perilous sport... People drown all the time using kayaks. Statistically speaking, kayaks and canoes are the most dangerous of all watercraft. That is if you read the USCG Boat Safetey Reports! You need to come up with a better argument... Woodsy
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Here's the truth: In Boating Statistics 2006, the USCG gives that there were 27 boating fatalities in the United States where the vessel was a kayak – out of 710 total boating fatalities – that’s only 3.8%. 49% of the boats involved in fatal accidents in 2006 were open motorboats and 10% were personal watercraft. The 2002 National Recreational Boating Survey Report (the latest year I can find) gives that 48.1% of boaters use open motorboats and 14.4% use kayaks. So the ratio of open motorboats percent involved in fatalities to the percent of boaters using this type of vessel is 1.02 to 1 (.49 /.481). For kayakers the ratio is 0.26 to 1 (.038 / .144.) So, according to actual statistics, open motorboats are 4 times more dangerous than kayaks. And 6 of those 27 kayak fatalities were not from drowning – and of those 21 who did drown, 5 were wearing PFD, which indicates that this was a result of more than just tipping over. The statistics do not give the type of water where the deaths occurred. White water kayaking results in a large percentage of all kayak fatalities. From the American Canoe Association – Canoe and Kayak Fatality Report: “From calendar year 1996 through 2002, 574 fatalities associated with canoes and kayaks were reported to the U.S. Coast Guard. Among the 558 paddling fatalities for which type of vessel is known, 72% were associated with canoes . . . the remainder 28% was associated with kayaks. Sea kayaks represented a very small proportion of fatalities (1% overall and 5% among kayaks).”
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Because of the $2000 threshold for a NHMP report—and no injury—why would this require a report to the NHMP? Failing that—and that the CG has no jurisdiction on Winnipesaukee—will it even appear in Coast Guard statistics?
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![]() How are the salmon fishermen, fishermen at anchor, kayaks, tubers, floating debris, anchored swimmers, anchored picnickers, and the occasional errant swim float to be accounted for in any Interstate example? ![]() Quote:
![]() Not exactly a jaywalker strolling out between parked SUVs, was she? It's not right to "project" a view of a non-participant into this incident. We don't know that to be FACT. Quote:
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The news article states, "...the kayak had no lights...". A kayak does not need "lights". A single 360° hand-held light is sufficient. Did the reporter expect to find the "missing lights" in an overturned and abandoned kayak with several feet of its bow missing? ![]() SIKSUKR's account (DUI, naked, no lights) was 3rd-hand; plus, we don't have any corroborating evidence from the press. The "NH Bass Foundation Nation" account (if there was one) could be parroting what appears anywhere on the Internet! Quote:
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If "kayaks can't be seen", I will agree with Mee&Mac and Evenstar that a strobe should be allowed for after-dark kayaking. (Even one that does not meet the on-ON criterion. And yes, we should protect the fool at our own "expense"). (Some PFDs have strobe lights.) ![]() Quote:
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Clothes-optional visitors at night—bringing no violence nor killing anyone—can be freely attacked, criticized, denigrated, abused and besmirched for a not-infrequent proclivity on quiet waters. Yet the same "Live-Free-or-Die" crowd will illogically defend the alcohol-induced excess which results in hundreds of reported accidents on the water annually, while tacitly defending Lake Winnipesaukee speeds double or triple the proposed daylight speed limit. ![]()
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In the spirit of APS type posts,I offer this one from the WMUR website.
Searchers Look For Missing Kayaker POSTED: 7:56 am EDT May 2, 2008 UPDATED: 10:17 am EDT May 2, 2008 ORFORD, N.H. -- Authorities are searching for a Vermont man after his empty kayak was found floating in the Connecticut River in New Hampshire. New Hampshire Fish and Game Lt. Todd Bogardus said 58-year-old Robert Swantak of Bradford, Vt., went out for an afternoon of kayaking and fiddlehead fern picking Thursday. He started in the Waits River in Bradford, which joins the Connecticut River that separates Vermont and New Hampshire. Swantak's family called police when he failed to return home. His overturned kayak was found a few miles down river in Orford, N.H., but there was no sign of Swantak. Authorities from both states searched until after midnight and will begin searching again Friday morning. Bogardus said officials remain optimistic that Swantak made it to shore, but he notes that the river is at high flood level with very swift currents and cold water temperatures.
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Oh and regarding the alcohol-induced excess, there is already a BUI law. Enforce it. |
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![]() This "Live-Free-or-Die" crowd does not condone naked kayaking while drunk and stupid in the dark without any navigation lights, and we do not condone alcohol related stupidity behind the wheel of a boat. We push for better education, enforcement of current laws and promoting a safe lake. We do not promote a fear based campaign full of BS and empty of facts like our opposition. There is no rampant issue with boats traveling 3 times the proposed speed limit on Winnipesaukee, I am not sure what Winnipesaukee you live on. There is a handful at most that are capable of speeds over 100mph, nonetheless 135mph. |
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I might add, don't forget the big, big wakes. |
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I wouldn't call that an update.That's one person's opinion in a letter to the editor.Does the Monitor publish opposing views?
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I wouldn't call it sound reasoning either. One-half the speed of a bullet? A .223 round leaves the muzzle at 3000 fps or 180,000 fpm or 10,800,000 fph which equals over 2000 mph. half of that is 90mph? Maybe in Laconia.
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The Salem Witch Trials! That worked really well! Jim Crow Laws! Needed those didn't we! The list goes on and on, add the Speed Limit Law to those and you just came full circle of creating laws out of fear of what might happen!
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Is the 2007 Marine Patrol accident log available to the public? Has anyone been to the WINNFAB website!??....if I'd never boated on Winni it would make boaters that can travel faster then 45mph sound like evil, family hating, nature hating, crazy people. I just can not understand why or how a small group of people who (as they say on their website) are scared of boating in crowds (reason=bc of other boats...
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You are about as wrong as you can be. Perhaps you have not considered that people afraid of boats don't live on islands. Or that when you live on an island your boating skills improve rapidly. I take a boat to get the morning paper. Islanders boat in all kinds of weather, including conditions where most boats don't leave the dock. I'm not sure what your definition of "smoke" is. But if it involves boat handling expertise, I wouldn't bet against WinnFABS. You can be sure that family at the Wolfeboro docks did not come from an island. Every WinnFABS person I know has at least one boat capable of going well over the proposed limit. So do I. Sorry if this ruins your stereotyped image. |
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Have you ever pulled into Wolfboro(sic)docks and see(sic) the family pull out the "pole", husband yelling at wife, people on docks scrambling to help..HEEHEE...bet then(sic) can't navigate over 30mph with out wettin their pants AND THEIR(sic) SCARED OF US!!!!!!!!!
I hope your boating skills are better than your spelling skills. |
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its funny to see when people make a point that stands strong they get attacked on spelling and grammar instead of the point(s) they made.It only shows one thing.
just as a question, I'd like to know what everyone wishes to accomplish by putting a speed limit on the lake during the day. i can understand why it might be necessary on weekends in popular locations like maybe in front of the weirs, i can also see why a nighttime speed limit could make it a little safer. it does get hard to see on a cloudy night. but during the day? why? |
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Regardless, if a boat is doing 45mph and the driver is not paying attention you are at risk of being hit. Failure to maintain a proper lookout is the issue here. Another commonly broken law, and one of the ultimate reasons why the death in Meredith took place years back. That and a lotta booze... My point is this, and without any personal attacks: The existing laws need to be enforced. Another law that will not be enforced is not worth the paper it is written on. Bear Islander has made comments I found startling- he did not really care about the enforcement as long as it was passed and that just having it on the books is good enough. If this is the way you feel I think you will be disappointed in the end. |
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Could the kayak vs powerboat "close calls" be a vision thing?...Kayaks are difficult to see most of the time, especially if the water is "choppy"...Same with the jet skis that don't have the tell-tale straight up spray...Why don't they pass a law that will make them more visible?...In some other states (California for example) They require a tall orange flag on ski boats when skiing as well as at the dunes when offroading...Put these on the kayaks and they will be seen...and avoided...I have a VERY fast boat and am an ex-offshore racer...I have been on the lake for 50 years and ALWAYS had a fast boat...(45-50 mph Centurys, 100 mph Hondo/Sanger drag boats, 70-80 mph jet boats, 22'- 32' 75-120 mph offshore V-bottoms & cat boats etc...) I have NEVER had a ticket but have been stopped for "safety checks" numerous times...I have SCARED myself MANY times but always lived to tell the tale and never involving anyone but myself...My point being, it is the "other" boneheads out there that SCARE me so I try to avoid those that look like they don't know what they are doing...(and there are too many out there that fit this description: DRUNKS-DUMMIES-DOPES+DISTRACTED "boaters")...If I want to go FAST I head out to the BROADS, choose my line and go...Even on weekends the BROADS can usually support a couple speed runs with out encroaching ANYONE...SAFELY!!!...Speed limit during the day...NO WAY...Speed limit at night..."might" be RIGHT...Enforce and obey the laws as they are written and let's move on...Thanks for letting me give my 2 cents....
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#73 | ||||||
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Here’s the thing: whenever a boat is traveling above no wake speed, if it runs into another boat, it has to be in violation of the 150 foot rule. After all, it’s sort of impossible for one boat to collide with another one, when it is still 150 feet away. If you had been paying attention to my posts, you would seen where I have posted (several times) that one of the main reasons that we need a speed limit is that when boats are traveling at high speeds, some operators apparently don’t see smaller boats until they are closer than 150 feet. It is also true that the faster a boat is traveling, the less time the operator has to avoid an object in its path, or to stay outside of the 150 foot limit. For these reasons, I feel that a speed limit will result in a reduction in the number of 150 foot violations. Quote:
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I don’t believe that I ever said that I’ve had “many” close calls or that I’ve been in “great fear” – what I posted was that I have had close calls, and that speeding boats have come way too close for comfort. In defining “close call”, when I stated that a boat was less than a second from hitting me, I realized that I should have added “if they continued their course” (but I can’t edit my posts). I happen to have an extremely good visual memory, even in tense situations. Quote:
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I’ve haven’t take that course, but I have read the rules numerous times, and I do own the latest copy. I kayak and sail so my studies are a bit broader and more specialized. I took kayak lessons, from a certified sea kayak instructor when I bought my first kayak. I’ve also attended advanced paddling workshops, and I also took a coastal navigation workshop. Now I’m learning the rules of competitive sailing (the book is over an inch thick, to give you an idea of the number of rules involved here). I’m also employed by my university to instruct and supervise other students on the use of kayaks, and have had Red Cross CPR and first-aid training. I do care about enforcement, but I also believe that most boaters will obey a speed limit on Winni, if the bill passes - so I believe that the estimated costs for enforcement are way higher than what the actual costs will end up being.
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"Boaters love boats . . . Kayakers love water."
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#74 | |
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Who are you trying to impress? Touting yourself up like this makes you look rather pathetic in my opinion. Very egotistical. It is simply not necessary and does not bolster your opinion. I am sorry that you had a head injury when young, I truly am. I fractured my skull when I was in 2nd grade. Regardless, what does it matter here? We don't hear you talking so nobody is giving you a hard time about your language skills and you have no problem in your writing skills. The facts are the facts in this case. Studies have been done to prove that the law is not necessary and now the proponents do not really care about enforcement? It is absurd, the whole thing is absurd. |
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#75 | ||||
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![]() I never claimed to be super-human. But I am in great shape (Believe me, you have to be in pretty great shape to compete as a varsity athlete – and I do the exact same workouts and have to pass the exact same fitness tests as the much younger athletes on my team.) Plus I was taught how to paddle correctly, so I use more than just my arms. And I’m 6 feet tall, so I have a pretty long reach. If you don’t believe my paddling abilities, borrow a kayak and come with me some time. That was supposed to read “spatial” awareness – not “special” awareness (I told you that I have language issues. And I'm not allowed to edit my posts, so I can't even correct my error.) I have been tested by experts – more than once. Doctors (and my professors) tell me that my thinking process is very unique. When I tried to explain my differences, you just see it as being egotistical. All I’m trying to do is explain myself here. Believe me, I don’t think that I'm better than other people – but I do know that I’m very different in some basic ways. Most of my life I've just wanted to be normal. Quote:
You guys are constantly questioning my abilities – all I’ve done is try to defend myself. And I’ve been completely honest in what I’ve written concerning my abilities (and in my inabilities). Quote:
It matters because my ability to judge distance, speed, or to remember the details of something visual was questioned here. How is admitting that I have language skills “touting myself up”???? When I wrote that I’m very literal – that was not bragging – it was admitting one of my many shortcomings. It was also an attempt to explain my understanding of what others write in their posts. And you’re very wrong, because I do have major problems writing. Writing is extremely difficult for me. I cannot even think in words, but only in images. At college it takes me more than 3 times as long as the average student to write a paper. Does that sound like I think that I’m perfect? Believe me; I’m not even close to perfect. But I do know that I am very good at some things, and I will continue to stand up for myself when my abilities are questioned. Quote:
I just tried to explain some of the problems with that report. The thing about facts is that you need to also look at the facts that are left out – in order to know the truth. [/quote] I happen to care very much about the enforcement of lake speed limits. So please stop making sweeping generalities about what “the proponents” want.
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"Boaters love boats . . . Kayakers love water."
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#76 |
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The boating accident in 2002 was just that, an accident. I cause two families a lot of hard ship. The first family lost a loved one, the 2nd lost a father of two and a husband for a long time. Either of which will ever be returned. Why do you have to use it to make your point over something as stupid as this speed limit. You should be a shamed of yourself having to use that reference to make your point. Let the dead lie, and never open old wounds when they have a chance to heal. Over what, a stupid speed limit! What is the big deal with a speed limit, it will be the same as any other speed limit we have for cars, planes, snowmobiles, etc.. There are going to be those that will choose to obey them and those that don't. Have you traveled 93 South lately? Did you know the speed limit is 65 and not 80, everyone does 80. How about on the trials snowmobiling? Its the posted speed or 45 max, I have seen sleds all the time going 60 - 70 on most. Do you really think a speed limit is going to change anything? Think about it. It is a waist of time and effort to be for or against it. It is like anything else there will all ways be something else. If the speed limit passes and the next death related accident is a result of swimming, of which there were two last year. Are you going to call for a ban on swimming? I know lets ban the use of the lake all together, no boating, swimming, rowing, sailing, no nothing GO HOME!
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#77 | |
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#78 | |||
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By the way what other BIG lake in NH have you had issues with...I have been on quite a few lakes and only winnie has the GFBL boat you seem to have issue with.....could it be they where GFFB ( go fast family boats) |
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