Speed Limit test zones dead in the water!

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Skip

........... "declare victory, and then get out"..............

Originally Posted by Islander

........... It sounds like he gave great advice!.............

You've followed the first part of the advice, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE follow the last part.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by ITD

You've followed the first part of the advice, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE follow the last part.

Shall I also stay away from ForumFest?

Asking someone to leave the forum is inappropriate. Even if you put a smiley face at the end.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Islander

Shall I also stay away from ForumFest?

Asking someone to leave the forum is inappropriate. Even if you put a smiley face at the end.

Honestly , I don't care what you do. Once again you twist and misconstrue, it's your trademark. Trust me, if I wanted you to leave I would have no problem saying it to you in words even you wouldn't be able to misunderstand. Here's another smiley face for you.

Just in case you forgot as you steer us down this road, there is no need for a speed limit, you have no case so your side had to resort to hiring a professional entity to try to make a case. The tests, requested by your side at a Meredith meeting showed that there is not a speed problem on the lake. A speed limit will take valuable resources now dedicated to safety enforcement and relegate those resources to sitting in a hiding spot trying to find the miniscule percentage of boaters that boat over 45 mph. Meanwhile, should you be successful, I predict that the death rate on the lake, which is very low, will actually increase, because of the diversion of MP from meaningful tasks. All of this because you want to turn Lake Winni into some "On Golden Pond" image that exists in your imagination. There are several scenes in that movie of an old "speedboat" that I'm sure had they been filmed in front of your place you would have sworn they were going 90 mph.

So, do I want you to go away, no, do I want your agenda to go away, absolutely.

[Bear Islander]

Dave R - You make some good points. But what makes me believe in speed limits is reports from other lakes that have enacted them.

You bring up Lake George. Lt Sneider runs the Marine Patrol there and thinks speed limits have helped their lake. Here is a link to a citizen article on Lake George.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...073/-1/CITIZEN

I know Winnipesaukee is not Lake George, but if it can help there, it can help here. At least that is the way I see it.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Dave R - You make some good points. But what makes me believe in speed limits is reports from other lakes that have enacted them.

You bring up Lake George. Lt Sneider runs the Marine Patrol there and thinks speed limits have helped their lake. Here is a link to a citizen article on Lake George.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...073/-1/CITIZEN

I know Winnipesaukee is not Lake George, but if it can help there, it can help here. At least that is the way I see it.

I have friends that boat on lake George. They tell me that they can go whatever speed they want and that the speed limit law is unenforceable. Unless you are going 80 mph 100 feet from shore, blatantly breaking the law, you will not be bothered.

[BroadHopper]

It may be true that the GFBL crowd may not want speed limits. But I don't have a GFBL boat. Unless you want to call a Mastercraft ski boat a GFBL boat. If that is the case, we have outlawed the Abenaki ski club!
My point is, why 45 mph? There are a number of barefoot skiers that will tell you that they can't ski comfortably at 45. I can ski comfortably at 52 mph. You are not only 'discriminating' the GFBL crowd, you are discriminating the barefooot skiers! I will be happy to support a 55 mph limit, but I am totally against 45.
Now that Islander has mentioned an agenda against most boats by imposing a horsepower limit as well as a boat length limit. I can see where a lot of people that can not go that fast is coming from. We need to prevent the speed limits people from gaining an inch. I can see we are up to a lot of discrimination against boaters when they go the mile.
Islander, you can't tell me what 'discrimination' is. I've been profound hard-of-hearing since birth. Believe me! I know what discrimination is!
'Don't tread on me!'

[jeffk]

The following link is to the Lake George Park commission 2006 Annual report.
http://www.lgpc.state.ny.us/pdf/2006...l%20Report.pdf

The report states at least a couple of speed related items.
There was a poker run in October 2006 and 6 boats were running side by side in excess of 70 MPH, the fastest at 83 MPH. These people were ticketed (5 tickets). There is no further breakdown for non PWC speeding tickets (nor were any mention in last years report).

PWC tickets are broken down into categories. For 2005 and 2006 NO PWC speeding tickets were issued for speeds in excess of 45 MPH. All PWC speed tickets were for no wake speed violations. The previous report also showed no PWC fast speeding tickets issued for 2004 either. No PWC has been been ticketed for over 45 MPH for the past 3 years.

In other statements I have seen online, patrol personnel have stated that they focus on noise more than speed and that speed enforcement is NOT a primary focus.

From a previous forum post:
WeirsBeachBoater01-07-2006, 05:32 PM
From: Lt. Joseph Schneider
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: Info request
The speed limit on LG is only one regulation of a comprehensive set of regulations passed in 1988 on Lake George when the NYS Legislature recognized the need for additional protection of the unique resource that is Lake George. LGPC regulations were promulgated regarding public safety, resource protection, docks and moorings, and special navigation issues such as overcrowding, vessel noise, PWC operation, and more; as such it is impossible to say what the effect of just the speed limit has been.
Lt. J.H. Schneider
Director of Law Enforcement
Lake George Park Commission
PO Box 749
Lake George, NY 12834

So the head of the patrol stated that he thinks speed limits have helped. What is he supposed to say "Well. we ticket people in no wake zones but in the middle of the lake it's a free-for-all and we don't pay much attention there"? If speeding was a focus they would publish the non PWC speeding ticket statistics. They probably don't for a good reason and their public statements played down speed enforcement until 6 BOZOS were so blatant that they couldn't possibly be ignored. They would have probably been ticketed on Winnipesaukee for reckless behavior.

People wanted to feel better about the safety of Lake George. The head of the Marine Patrol is telling them they are safer. This is a public official saying he is doing a good job by telling the people what they want to hear. The observable facts and anecdotal evidence of boaters on Lake George tell a very different story of lax enforcement of the 45 MPH limit. If Lake George is safer, it isn't because of speed limit enforcement.

[Bear Islander]

pm203 and jeffk

If there are reports that the speed limit on Lake George is not working I would like to read them. I try and keep an open mind, but the only things I know about the Lake George speed limit are positive. If there is another side to the story then it should be told.

But neither of you have provided anything solid. "A friend told me" is not good enough in my book. Are there articles, web sites, letters to the editor etc..

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

pm203 and jeffk

If there are reports that the speed limit on Lake George is not working I would like to read them. I try and keep an open mind, but the only things I know about the Lake George speed limit are positive. If there is another side to the story then it should be told.

But neither of you have provided anything solid. "A friend told me" is not good enough in my book. Are there articles, web sites, letters to the editor etc..

I provide a link to the Marine Patrols report. This is hardly hearsay information. Further I provide a copy of an email provided to a forum member, also hard data. I could have provided a link to the comments of the marine patrol I found online but I figured my vouching for it was enough. I should have known better. The last third of my post is my summation and interpretation of the facts. Feel free to disagree with me. But don't try to dismiss hard information simply because it disagrees with your point of view.

[Bear Islander]

The statement that the Marine Patrol focus more on noise than speed does not mean that speed limits are not working. It may mean that speed is not a problem therefore does not require enforcement.

I don't find anything in the Report that indicated to me that speed limits are not working. What specifically indicates a problem with speed limits.

Lt Schneider admits he can not tell how much of their success is due to speed limits alone. That is a long long way from saying speed limits are not working.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I don't find anything in the Report that indicated to me that speed limits are not working. What specifically indicates a problem with speed limits.

It's not in the report, per se, but since the real goal of speed limits is to rid a lake of high speed boats, it's obviously failed when folks hold poker runs there. What convinced you that Winnipesaukee will be different?

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by Dave R

It's not in the report, per se, but since the real goal of speed limits is to rid a lake of high speed boats, it's obviously failed when folks hold poker runs there. What convinced you that Winnipesaukee will be different?

Islander, Why don't you push on areas that really need to be addressed. You would get a lot more cooperation and your agenda could be met without stepping on anyone else. Here are a few suggestions.

Try coming up with a plan to quiet down the boats that are way above the legal limit? You already have a law to work with. I see and hear lots of boats that have to be over the NH law. Just enforce the law!!! This one should be easy.

Try taking you energy and put it in to education. Focus the efforts of Winnfabs to educate the 50 bass boaters before they all take off from lee's mill at 60mph ALL AT ONCE!!

Try to lobby for better enforcement of the 150 rule. Not just more marine patrol but actually having them look for unsafe boating activity instead of sitting in the usual spots..

Separate the night speed issue from the day speed issue. Don't tell me I need a day speed limit because of an accident at night. They are two different issues.

If you really want safety then the above suggestions will help you get there.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Dave R

It's not in the report, per se, but since the real goal of speed limits is to rid a lake of high speed boats, it's obviously failed when folks hold poker runs there. What convinced you that Winnipesaukee will be different?

That's because Poker Runs are not speed events. The publisher of "Poker Runs America" says so himself:

"...One of the reasons behind this craving for power is that more and more poker runners are itching to race. And, while I must make it clear that poker runs are NOT A RACE, I can't say that I blame performance boaters for wanting to get out on a course and show their stuff. Boat builders, too, have recognized this growing trend.

"While many poker runs invite every conceivable type of boat owner, the emphasis on performance boats is pretty evident, judging from the sleek, fast-forward designs owned by power-hungry participants, some equipped with three - even four - motors..."
http://www.pokerrunsamerica.com/publisher/pub-32.html

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Dave R

It's not in the report, per se, but since the real goal of speed limits is to rid a lake of high speed boats, it's obviously failed when folks hold poker runs there. What convinced you that Winnipesaukee will be different?

My goal is to try and change the direction the lake is going in. I would like the lake to be for the peaceful enjoyment of all. Not the enjoyment of a few at the expense of many. I think the are limits to size and speed that need to be set. I would like this to be done in a way that does not punish the boats that are already here.

If I had the power to set a "limit" it would preclude boats over 300 hp that where manufactured after 2008. But nobody is asking me.

On another site one of the boaters in that poker run said he had to go to court and pay a $250 fine. I hope that is exactly how a speed limit will work on Winnipesaukee.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

"I think the are limits to size and speed that need to be set."

Finally someone admits to Winnfabs true agenda. So its not about speed, its now about size and speed!!!!!



"I would like this to be done in a way that does not punish the boats that are already here."

So why are you pushing to get speed limits?

"If I had the power to set a "limit" it would preclude boats over 300 hp that where manufactured after 2008. But nobody is asking me."



300 hp???? You have got to be kidding me. That is most boats over 20ft nowadays.

So if I want to stay on "your" lake I should invest in a canoe?

So much for my enjoyment, because of the few of you that don't agree with my style of boat. Isn't that exactly what you are preaching? That a few powerboats ruin your enjoyment. Now you are trying to say its ok, for the few of you to ruin the powerboaters enjoyment, as long as it is in your favor????

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

"I think the are limits to size and speed that need to be set."

Finally someone admits to Winnfabs true agenda. So its not about speed, its now about size and speed!!!!!



"I would like this to be done in a way that does not punish the boats that are already here."

So why are you pushing to get speed limits?

"If I had the power to set a "limit" it would preclude boats over 300 hp that where manufactured after 2008. But nobody is asking me."



300 hp???? You have got to be kidding me. That is most boats over 20ft nowadays.

So if I want to stay on "your" lake I should invest in a canoe?

So much for my enjoyment, because of the few of you that don't agree with my style of boat. Isn't that exactly what you are preaching? That a few powerboats ruin your enjoyment. Now you are trying to say its ok, for the few of you to ruin the powerboaters enjoyment, as long as it is in your favor????

I am not WinnFABS, I am just giving my own opinion.

I don't know the kind of boat you have, but I doubt it was manufactured after 2008.

I think 300 hp is a reasonable limit on a municipal drinking water supply, and crowded recreational lake. You obviously disagree.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

It is a 25ft bowrider. Might do 55 on a good day.

Municipal Drinking water supply, is that the new angle that is going to be used next?

Sorry to assume you were a member of Winnfabs, guilty by association I guess.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Westchester

Municipal Drinking water supply, is that the new angle that is going to be used next?

It's already being used. And it's a pretty good argument.

And it's the kind of argument non-boaters and politicians can understand and hang their hat on.

[Cal]

And exactly what does horse power have to do with it I'm sure my two inboard/outboards are cleaner than 12 ,100 hp two stroke outboards
What are you going to try next , color , shape , 1 , 2 or 3 engines , date of manufacture , location of manufacture , number of passengers it can hold , gross weight , with or without a windshield.
I'll swear , I've never heard so much noise from so few people in all my life

[Resident 2B]

Bear Islander,

Now that the exclusionary agenda you support is starting to come out, whether or not you are part of Winnfabs, let me elaborate on what you are saying.

No more boats with 300HP or more on the lake means no more Mount Washington, a legend that has been on the lake longer than most of us have been alive. Take the Doris E and the Sophie C off the lake as well and end the mail service to the folks on the islands.

You make a ton of sense

R2B

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

Bear Islander,

Now that the exclusionary agenda you support is starting to come out, whether or not you are part of Winnfabs, let me elaborate on what you are saying.

No more boats with 300HP or more on the lake means no more Mount Washington, a legend that has been on the lake longer than most of us have been alive. Take the Doris E and the Sophie C off the lake as well and end the mail service to the folks on the islands.

You make a ton of sense

R2B

Hi Cal, At the Marine Patrol site there is a long list of NH lakes that already have horsepower limits. This is nothing new. HP and year of manufacture are listed on the registration of every boat.

Hi Resident2B, The Mount, Sophie C. and Doris E. all have dates of manufacture before 2008.

Please don't get so worked up, this is just one guys idea.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Hi Cal, At the Marine Patrol site there is a long list of NH lakes that already have horsepower limits. This is nothing new. HP and year of manufacture are listed on the registration of every boat.

Without even looking , I'll bet they're all smaller than Winni and probably considerably smaller.
The statement was made about hp limits on drinking water lakes and again I'll say I'll bet my two I/Os are cleaner than 12 , 100 hp two stroke outboards , or 24 , 50 hp's

[overlook]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Dave R - You make some good points. But what makes me believe in speed limits is reports from other lakes that have enacted them.

You bring up Lake George. Lt Sneider runs the Marine Patrol there and thinks speed limits have helped their lake. Here is a link to a citizen article on Lake George.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...073/-1/CITIZEN

I know Winnipesaukee is not Lake George, but if it can help there, it can help here. At least that is the way I see it.

Lake George does not have a safe passage law now and not before there speed limit. Of course it changes the opinion of Sneider. But remember two boats can have a closure rate of 90 mph within a few feet today. Right now in NH the closure rate is 12mph.

Do you really feel safer on Lake George?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by overlook

Lake George does not have a safe passage law now and not before there speed limit. Of course it changes the opinion of Sneider. But remember two boats can have a closure rate of 90 mph within a few feet today. Right now in NH the closure rate is 12mph.

Do you really feel safer on Lake George?

I have to agree here on the lack of safe passage. I feel safer having a boat doing 80mph that is by law to be 150+ feet away than having a 40mph boat passing me down the side at 30-40 feet away. The 80mph boat has less response time to react in an adverse situation than a 40mph boat, but if the 40mph boat is that much closer than the 150' limit in place here the reaction time is cut as well. Taking into account closing speeds of two boats each doing 40mph and headed towards each other the result could still be catastrophic.

[GWC...]

The white flag flies at the FF.

It's a day for all to enjoy - just one rule - no heated topics are to be discussed...

Oops, two rules - kayaks are welcome, too;
but occupants must not be nekked - must keep Weirs guy happy.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Islander

Shall I also stay away from ForumFest?

Asking someone to leave the forum is inappropriate. Even if you put a smiley face at the end.

But it's ok for you to try to get rid of performance boats