Wolfeboro Docks Question

[Taz]

I talked to the official walking the docks in Wolfboro regarding the handicap docking. I believe he also keeps track of autos in the parking lot at the town docks(he has the tool marking the tires to keep track of how long they are parked there) There is no statute to cover handicap docking. If you dock there you can not be given a ticket. It is only a suggestion. There is nothing at that dock that makes it any easier than any other dock at the Wolfboro town docks for an individual who is physically impaired to disembark from their boat. If I am in Wolfboro and there is no other space to dock, I will dock at the area with painted blue posts if no one else wants to dock there and I am next in line.

If someone is boating and they are physically impaired then they were somehow able to enter the boat where they started from and they can disembark in Wolfboro at the town dock the same way. They should wait like everyone else.

The official I talked to was very angry that this dock was designated for handicap docking. He told me that over the winter without telling him the entire dock was taken for handicap docking. He protested to the authorities citing there is no statute to allow this and they relented agreed to what it is now presently. He all but outright told me to dock there if I wished.

I suggest every one else do the same. What fair is fair and this is not. This is nothing more than allowing someone to cut line.

[oliviernh]

Taz, unfortunately whoever gave you that information is incorrect. Anyone who has noticed the blue posts go halfway down on the outermost dock. Also the blue handicapped signs coincide with the blue posts. Two weekends ago I docked in the spot closest to shore on the outermost dock. this was after the blue posts and there were no handicapped signs going up that far on the dock. We ran to the hardware store and rite-aid and when we came back I had a nice bright orange ticket on my windshield for $250 for parking in a handicapped spot. The ticket also said if I had a handicapped tag it had to be displayed. Every boat on the outside dock had a ticket on their windshield.

We were a little upset!! We pulled out and started to leave when we saw the marine patrol guy walking the docks. I turned the boat around and went back to my same parking spot (as no one had taken it yet). We proceeded to call the officer over and point out to him the blue posts only go 1/2 way down and we were clearly way past them. He said "well there is a sign right here" (at the end of the dock), however it is facing inland and you can't see it when pulling up in the boat. He explained that the whole outside of the dock was for handicapped parking and it was a serious offense and hence the ticket for $250, but he understood our argument and kindly decided to give us a warning and ripped up the ticket! But said next time we must diplay our handicapped tag if we had one. I told him I never heard of anyone getting one with thier boat. He didn't really have an answer for that.

At anyrate they can and will ticket you. I have a ticket to prove it, however it is now ripped in half and "warning" is written over it in black marker.

[kjbathe]

This is really a mess, isn't it? Following up on my earlier post when we "legitimately" used the spaces, I also thought we should be hanging the handicapped placard. But then I realized it was going to be hard to hang the placard on the boat at the same time it was hanging in the car.

Perhaps we all need handicapped license plates instead of the placard, and then we can place one of the plates on the windshield of the boat???

And the whole side of the dock is restricted even though the few spots are clearly marked with blue and individual signs that DO face the water? With that logic one could argue that the whole row of parking spaces at Wal-Mart is for handicapped use even though only some of spaces are blue and the remainder are white because there's a sign at the end of the row??? Did they run out of blue paint in Wolfeboro and we're just supposed to know the intent was to keep painting the whole side?

It's clear to me that few, if any, know what the rules are for the use of these spots or how their mis/use should be enforced. I'm still seeing the only benefit as time savings for handicapped boaters. And to AC2717's point above, I don't think the time of disabled individuals is any more valuable than the rest of ours. Unless/until a coherent and enforceable policy can be developed and communicated, the spaces should be opened up for everyone to use.

[camp guy]

The whole situation at the Wolfeboro Town docks regarding handicapped boat parking can be summed up in very plain, simple language: The local selectman don't have the @#%%s to tell Mr Hanson to stop being such a pain in the backside. Mr Hanson is only doing this to continually prove his point. Okay, we get it. Now quit it. In all my time around the Wolfeboro docks I have NEVER seen him boating. He was upset with the boat show a few years ago because he couldn't park his car in the designated handicapped space; however, the boat show committee had made other, more generous arrangements for handicapped parking during the show, but he wanted the originally designated space. Somebody needs to tell the Emperor his new clothes are inappropriate.

[skprbob]

olivernh - Yes, this is really confusing. I assume the guy you talked to about the ticket was a Wolfeboro officer of some sort, perhaps one of their traffic control people, and not a Marine Patrol officer. As a former NHMP officer, I can tell you that the Marine Patrol does not have jurisdiction over docks or docking. It's up to individual towns to enforce their own rules concerning docks.

I spoke this morning to the Wolfeboro PD. The dispatcher was even uncertain about what was going on, but it's developing. The chief called me back promptly with the following useful information:

Although the docks are marked, there is presently no ordinance governing the parking. An ordinance is being worked on, but until one is passed, no formal enforcement action can be taken. In other words, you cannot be cited for violation of a non-existent rule. No ordinance = no violation. You should not have received a ticket of any sort, and the chief would like to hear from anyone who does receive one so he can straighten out his enforcement. Until an ordinance is passed, the use of the handicapped dock is an "honor system" proposition.

I hope this clears up at least some of the confusion.

BTW - camp guy - You're absolutely right. Mr. Hanson is apparently another example of the ADA gone crazy. Like many other examples, the ADA was a perfectly good and necessary law which has been corrupted to ridiculous extremes such as this. Here we go again!

[Skip]

Skprbob is correct. New Hampshire State law empowers cities and towns within the State to regulate docking within their particular jurisdictions by city or town ordinance. The Town of Wolfeboro therefore can declare certain docks "Handicap Access Only" but must do so by passing an applicable town ordinance in compliance with their respective town charter.

When & if such a town ordinance were passed, it would only be enforceable by the Town itself. The NHMP would have no jurisdiction to enforce a town ordinance.

[oliviernh]

Skprbob and Skip, I'm sure you're correct and I misspoke regarding a "marine patrol" officer. He was some type of enforcement officer but I guess I'm not sure from where. I assume Wolfeboro enforcement. As far as cited offense, it was for docking/parking in a handicapped spot. I wish I had the ticket with me (then I might post a copy here) but it is at the lake. I will look at it this weekend when I get up there and see what other information is on it. I don't want to get anyone in trouble as the officer was very nice and understanding once we pleaded our case to him. I was glad to get it taken care of there because I was definately going to fight it but of course that would have meant missed work and hassle etc.

[skprbob]

olivernh et al - My conversation with the Wolfeboro chief clearly indicated that handicapped parking for motor vehicles and handicapped docking for boats were separate issues. An ordinance regarding handicapped parking on land exists and one can be ticketed for violations. No such ordinance regarding handicapped docking exists, so you cannot be ticketed unless/until such an ordinance is passed by the Town of Wolfeboro. The chief was not intent on getting any of his officers in any trouble - his goal was to make sure that everyone on his force was aware of the difference. I'd say the officer who gave you the ticket was simply misapplying a land-based motor vehicle ordinance to the docks.

[Taz]

Skpbob and skip are correct. I called the Town of Wolfboro and the Wolfboro police and both confirmed there is no RSA or town ordinance to enforce the handicap parking at the Wolfboro town docks. Both also confirmed that no one is ticketing anyone for parking there that does not have some one who is handicapped on their boat. THIS IS NOT BEING ENFORCED.

When I enquired further on my call to the town offices of Wolfboro, in a nutshell, this an attempt to appease someone because the town hall as well as other parts of Wolfboro are not handicap accessible. The town offices also said that the Govenors Commission on disability is another source for more information on this matter. A Cheryl Killam is a contact in that office.

Obviously, someone is applying pressure to the Town of Wolfboro. No other town with town docking on the lake has designated handicap parking for boats. When I pressed the point that if anything the space designated is further away than any other of the docks, the answer was, "thats what they requested" It remains to be seen who they are.

[Taz]

On another note AC2717 posted that his father did not drive but received a placard anyway. Why? If you are not driving, whoever is driving can stop and drop you off at the entrance to where ever you are going, much closer than walking from a handicap spot.

[tis]

You are right, Taz, someone is applyling pressure. So much so that they (not sure if it was the feds or the state but I think it was the state) came in and checked the whole town and identified all the spots that needed to become handicapped accessible.

[KTO]

The one thing that I don't think anyone took in was: How will this help?

If someone is visually impaired, why are they driving?

If someone is physically impaired, what makes them deserve the spot? It's not any shorter, it's the same as the rest of the dock.

If someone has a medical issue:
A) Carry the medication with you
B) Let him/her off at the END of the dock which is DEFINITELY always open

Did I miss anything?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by KTO

The one thing that I don't think anyone took in was: How will this help?

If someone is visually impaired, why are they driving?

If someone is physically impaired, what makes them deserve the spot? It's not any shorter, it's the same as the rest of the dock.

If someone has a medical issue:
A) Carry the medication with you
B) Let him/her off at the END of the dock which is DEFINITELY always open

Did I miss anything?

Excellent points!

But what you are missing is the fact that you are invoking the doctrine of common sense within the framework of this discussion.

It appears to me that at least one person pushing his particular agenda is invoking his doctrine of perceived entitlement.

Unfortunately when it comes to government common sense usually clashes with perceived entitlements!

[jrc]

OK, there is no law, rule or town ordinance, and neither the Marine Patrol or the Wolfeboro PD is enforcing the law that doesn't exist.

So who put the tickets on OliverNH's boat and the other boats that he witnessed with tickets?

How many of those other boaters paid those tickets because they thought there was a law or couldn't afford the time to fight the ticket in court?

This is a real mess.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

We all seem to agree that this solution appears to add zero advantage to the handicapped boaters except for the potential to cut in line. An advantage I would hope would not be relished. I really hope the voters will not continue this failed gesture. This family loves to spend time and dollars in the town but not having a vote in the election would have to vote with our feet and dollars.

How about adding some new spaces that actually are handicap advantaged without taking the precious existing spaces out of the que. How many dollars are lost when we give up and turn away.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by jrc

OK, there is no law, rule or town ordinance, and neither the Marine Patrol or the Wolfeboro PD is enforcing the law that doesn't exist.

So who put the tickets on OliverNH's boat and the other boats that he witnessed with tickets?

How many of those other boaters paid those tickets because they thought there was a law or couldn't afford the time to fight the ticket in court?

This is a real mess.

The most likely answer to who put the tickets on the boats is that they are not real tickets. Hanson might have taken orange paper and printed "dummy" tickets.

Another possibility is olivernh is Hanson.

[oliviernh]

Islander, I'm definately not Hanson (don't even know who he is). Just another islander like yourself (Rattlesnake-actually my screen name is my last name). I will get my ticket this weekend when I go to the lake and post a copy. Maybe that will clear up some questions as I am now curious myself as to exactly who issued the ticket.

I'm surprised we haven't heard from anyone else who also got a ticket at the town docks?

[MAINLANDER]

Bout time to boycott Wolfeboro and let the business owners apply a little pressure from their end.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by oliviernh

Islander, I'm definately not Hanson (don't even know who he is). Just another islander like yourself (Rattlesnake-actually my screen name is my last name). I will get my ticket this weekend when I go to the lake and post a copy. Maybe that will clear up some questions as I am now curious myself as to exactly who issued the ticket.

I'm surprised we haven't heard from anyone else who also got a ticket at the town docks?

My curiosity continues......can you scan & post the ticket?

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by Taz

On another note AC2717 posted that his father did not drive but received a placard anyway. Why? If you are not driving, whoever is driving can stop and drop you off at the entrance to where ever you are going, much closer than walking from a handicap spot.

Reason being was yes while I agree that it should have been possible to drop off at the front door and then go park, and it was done a couple of times, the problem was that he was able to push or hold himself in the Wheelchair. It was a matter of also when leaving the stores carrying what was purchased and pushing him out of the stores as well. There was a lot of time and effort involved from the beginning and it sort of made him feel like a real person instead of a burden because of all the work you had to go through.

But I do agree the situations need to be evaluated on a person by person basis for handicapped placards because every situation is different.

Maybe they should have just made one that allowed us to park close to the stores but not get free parking on the streets with the meters. They should separate the privileges.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by oliviernh

.... I have a ticket to prove it, however it is now ripped in half and "warning" is written over it in black marker.

What law does the ticket say you violated?

[MJM]

Originally Posted by oliviernh

.....We proceeded to call the officer over and point out to him the blue posts only go 1/2 way down and we were clearly way past them. .... He explained that the whole outside of the dock was for handicapped parking....

Whomever this was (and if you discover it was Mr Hanson, he should be charged with impersonating a law enforcement officer) was wrong.

This is a portion of an email I received from the Wboro Town Manager when I inquired about this topic weeks ago. (I was pleased with his prompt, courteous, and informative reply.)

============================
.....As you may know, a formal complaint against the Town of Wolfeboro has been filed at the U.S. Dept. of Justice about the Town's lack of compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act. (ADA). One of the compliance measures involves designating two boat slips at the Town docks as reserved for handicapped, just like there are spaces reserved in parking lots for handicapped drivers. The rest of the dock remains open for use by the public.
============================

I think I'll print a copy of his email and keep it in the boat....

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Maybe the town's official position should be posted below the sign on the dock for all to see.

[MJM]

The thing I worry about is "what's next?". Is the designation just the first step? Next will the town will be required to install lifts, special ramps, docks of a different material, etc......? Scary.

[idigtractors]

Originally Posted by MJM

The thing I worry about is "what's next?". Is the designation just the first step? Next will the town will be required to install lifts, special ramps, docks of a different material, etc......? Scary.

You know, many of you were very upset and had some awful things to say when the smoking ban went into affect, but you know it worked out just fine as we worked with the system. Maybe this will work out the same way. Give things a chance and if it still doesn't work out go the proper route to try and get it changed instead of spilling out all the grievances he where nothing can be done about it.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by idigtractors

You know, many of you were very upset and had some awful things to say when the smoking ban went into affect, but you know it worked out just fine as we worked with the system. Maybe this will work out the same way. Give things a chance and if it still doesn't work out go the proper route to try and get it changed instead of spilling out all the grievances he where nothing can be done about it.

HUH? That analogy is quite a stretch. What does a smoking ban have to do with the issues being raised here? I have not participated in this discussion but choose to read what members thoughts and frustrations are. So, nobody should be discussing this? HUH?

[Skip]

Have to agree with you 100% SIKSUKR.

Because of discussion on this well read web site we have learned that the supposed regulation has no force of law, that there is a possibility that tickets may have been issued improperly and that the Wolfeboro Police Chief is aware of the situation and working to resolve it.

In addition many positive suggestions have been made to possibly create a viable handicap system if the Town of Wolfeboro does decide to legally and properly pursue that course of action.

I believe this has been a very pertinent Lake related thread that once again has resulted in positive ramifications for the folks that visit here!

Thanks once again Don for providing such a great venue to shape and mold the future of the Lakes region by providing a well moderated board for topical discussion!

[Fun4us]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that I saw all the posts on the far right painted and marked. Wasn't it noted here that there are only supose to be two spots?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by MJM

The thing I worry about is "what's next?". Is the designation just the first step? Next will the town will be required to install lifts, special ramps, docks of a different material, etc......? Scary.

A good question and here's what I could find out ...

(from http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm )

15.2 Boating Facilities.

15.2.1 General. Newly designed or newly constructed and altered boating facilities shall comply with 15.2.

15.2.2* Accessible Route. Accessible routes, including gangways that are part of accessible routes, shall comply with 4.3. Appendix Note

EXCEPTION 1. Where an existing gangway or series of gangways is replaced or altered, an increase in the length of the gangway is not required to comply with 15.2.2, unless required by 4.1.6(2).

EXCEPTION 2. The maximum rise specified in 4.8.2 shall not apply to gangways.

EXCEPTION 3. Where the total length of the gangway or series of gangways serving as part of a required accessible route is at least 80 feet (24 m), the maximum slope specified in 4.8.2 shall not apply to the gangways.

EXCEPTION 4. In facilities containing fewer than 25 boat slips and where the total length of the gangway or series of gangways serving as part of a required accessible route is at least 30 feet (9140 mm), the maximum slope specified in 4.8.2 shall not apply to the gangways.

EXCEPTION 5. Where gangways connect to transition plates, landings specified by 4.8.4 shall not be required.

EXCEPTION 6. Where gangways and transition plates connect and are required to have handrails, handrail extensions specified by 4.8.5 shall not be required. Where handrail extensions are provided on gangways or transition plates, such extensions are not required to be parallel with the ground or floor surface.

EXCEPTION 7. The cross slope of gangways, transition plates, and floating piers that are part of an accessible route shall be 1:50 maximum measured in the static position.

EXCEPTION 8. Limited-use/limited-application elevators or platform lifts complying with 4.11 shall be permitted in lieu of gangways complying with 4.3.

15.2.3* Boat Slips: Minimum Number. Where boat slips are provided, boat slips complying with 15.2.5 shall be provided in accordance with Table 15.2.3. Where the number of boat slips is not identified, each 40 feet (12 m) of boat slip edge provided along the perimeter of the pier shall be counted as one boat slip for the purpose of this section. Appendix Note

Table 15.2.3
Total Boat Slips in Facility Minimum Number of Required
Accessible Boat Slips
1 to 25 -> 1
26 to 50 -> 2
51 to 100 -> 3
101 to 150 -> 4
151 to 300 -> 5
301 to 400 -> 6
401 to 500 -> 7
501 to 600 -> 8
601 to 700 -> 9
701 to 800 -> 10
801 to 900 -> 11
901 to 1000 -> 12
1001 and over -> 12, plus 1 for each 100 or fraction thereof over 1000

15.2.3.1* Dispersion. Accessible boat slips shall be dispersed throughout the various types of slips provided. This provision does not require an increase in the minimum number of boat slips required to be accessible. Appendix Note

15.2.4* Boarding Piers at Boat Launch Ramps. Where boarding piers are provided at boat launch ramps, at least 5 percent, but not less than one of the boarding piers shall comply with 15.2.4 and shall be served by an accessible route complying with 4.3. Appendix Note

EXCEPTION 1. Accessible routes serving floating boarding piers shall be permitted to use exceptions 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, and 8 in 15.2.2.

EXCEPTION 2. Where the total length of the gangway or series of gangways serving as part of a required accessible route is at least 30 feet (9140 mm), the maximum slope specified by 4.8.2 shall not apply to the gangways.

EXCEPTION 3. Where the accessible route serving a floating boarding pier or skid pier is located within a boat launch ramp, the portion of the accessible route located within the boat launch ramp shall not be required to comply with 4.8.

15.2.4.1* Boarding Pier Clearances. The entire length of the piers shall comply with 15.2.5. Appendix Note

15.2.5* Accessible Boat Slips. Accessible boat slips shall comply with 15.2.5. Appendix Note

15.2.5.1 Clearances. Accessible boat slips shall be served by clear pier space 60 inches (1525 mm) wide minimum and at least as long as the accessible boat slips. Every 10 feet (3050 mm) maximum of linear pier edge serving the accessible boat slips shall contain at least one continuous clear opening 60 inches (1525 mm) minimum in width (see Fig. 59).

EXCEPTION 1: The width of the clear pier space shall be permitted to be 36 inches (915 mm) minimum for a length of 24 inches (610 mm) maximum, provided that multiple 36 inch (915mm) wide segments are separated by segments that are 60 inches (1525 mm) minimum clear in width and 60 inches (1525 mm) minimum clear in length. (see Fig. 60)

EXCEPTION 2: Edge protection 4 inches (100 mm) high maximum and 2 inches (51mm) deep maximum shall be permitted at the continuous clear openings. (see Fig. 61)

EXCEPTION 3*: In alterations to existing facilities, clear pier space shall be permitted to be located perpendicular to the boat slip and shall extend the width of the boat slip, where the facility has at least one boat slip complying with 15.2.5, and further compliance with 15.2.5 would result in a reduction in the number of boat slips available or result in a reduction of the widths of existing slips. Appendix Note

15.2.5.2 Cleats and Other Boat Securement Devices. Cleats and other boat securement devices shall not be required to comply with 4.27.3.

And here's the appendix to help interpret the rules ...

A15.2 Boating Facilities.

A15.2.2 Accessible Route. The following two examples apply exceptions two and three.

Example 1. Boat slips which are required to be accessible are provided at a floating pier. The vertical distance an accessible route must travel to the pier when the water is at its lowest level is six feet, although the water level only fluctuates three feet. To comply with exceptions 2 and 3, at least one design solution would provide a gangway at least 72.25 feet long which ensures the slope does not exceed 1:12.

Example 2. A gangway is provided to a floating pier which is required to be on an accessible route. The vertical distance is 10 feet between the elevation where the gangway departs the landside connection and the elevation of the pier surface at the lowest water level. Exceptions 2 and 3, which modify 4.8.2, permit the gangway to be at least 80 feet long. Another design solution would be to have two 40-foot plus continuous gangways joined together at a float, where the float (as the water level falls) will stop dropping at an elevation five feet below the landside connection.

A15.2.3 Boat Slips: Minimum Number. Accessible boat slips are not "reserved" for persons with disabilities in the same manner as accessible vehicle parking spaces. Rather, accessible boat slip use is comparable to accessible hotel rooms. The Department of Justice is responsible for addressing operational issues relating to the use of accessible facilities and elements. The Department of Justice currently advises that hotels should hold accessible rooms for persons with disabilities until all other rooms are filled. At that point, accessible rooms can be open for general use on a first come, first serve basis.

The following two examples apply to a boating facility with a single non-demarcated pier.

Example 1. A site contains a new boating facility which consists of a single 60-foot pier. Boats are only moored parallel with the pier on both sides to allow occupants to embark or disembark. Since the number of slips cannot be identified, section 15.2.3 requires each 40 feet of boat slip edge to be counted as one slip for purposes of determining the number of slips available and determines the number required to be accessible. The 120 feet of boat slip edge at the pier would equate with 3 boat slips. Table 15.2.3 would require 1 slip to be accessible and comply with 15.2.5. Section 15.2.5 (excluding the exceptions within the section) requires a clear pier space 60 inches wide minimum extending the length of the slip. In this example, because the pier is at least 40 feet long, the accessible slip must contain a clear pier space at least 40 feet long which has a minimum width of 60 inches.

Example 2. A new boating facility consisting of a single pier 25 feet long and 3 feet wide is being planned for a site. The design intends to allow boats to moor and occupants to embark and disembark on both sides, and at one end. As the number of boat slips cannot be identified, applying section 15.2.3 would translate to 53 feet of boat slip edge at the pier. This equates with two slips. Table 15.2.3 would require 1 slip to be accessible. To comply with 15.2.5 (excluding the exceptions within the section), the width of the pier must be increased to 60 inches. Neither 15.2.3 or 15.2.5 requires the pier length to be increased to 40 feet.

A15.2.3.1 Dispersion. Types of boat slips are based on the size of the boat slips; whether single berths or double berths, shallow water or deep water, transient or longer-term lease, covered or uncovered; and whether slips are equipped with features such as telephone, water, electricity and cable connections. The term "boat slip" is intended to cover any pier area where recreational boats embark or disembark, unless classified as a launch ramp boarding pier. For example, a fuel pier may contain boat slips, and this type of short term slip would be included in determining compliance with 15.2.3.1.

A15.2.4 Boarding Piers at Boat Launch Ramps. The following two examples apply to a boat launch ramp boarding pier.

Example 1. A chain of floats is provided on a launch ramp to be used as a boarding pier which is required to be accessible by 15.2.4. At high water, the entire chain is floating and a transition plate connects the first float to the surface of the launch ramp. As the water level decreases, segments of the chain end up resting on the launch ramp surface, matching the slope of the launch ramp. As water levels drop, segments function also as gangways because one end of a segment is resting on the launch ramp surface and the other end is connecting to another floating segment in the chain.

Under ADAAG 4.1.2(2), an accessible route must serve the last float because it would function as the boarding pier at the lowest water level. Under exception 3 in 15.2.4, each float is not required to comply with ADAAG 4.8, but must meet all other requirements in ADAAG 4.3, unless exempted by exception 1 in 15.2.4. In this example, because the entire chain also functions as a boarding pier, the entire chain must comply with the requirements of 15.2.5, including the 60-inch minimum clear pier width provision.

Example 2. A non-floating boarding pier supported by piles divides a launching area into two launch ramps and is required to be accessible. Under ADAAG 4.1.2(2), an accessible route must connect the boarding pier with other accessible buildings, facilities, elements, and spaces on the site. Although the boarding pier is located within a launch ramp, because the pier is not a floating pier or a skid pier, none of the exceptions in 15.2.4 apply. To comply with ADAAG 4.3, either the accessible route must run down the launch ramp or the fixed boarding pier could be relocated to the side of the two launch ramps. The second option leaves the slope of the launch ramps unchanged, because the accessible route runs outside the launch ramps.

A15.2.4.1 Boarding Pier Clearances. The guidelines do not establish a minimum length for accessible boarding piers at boat launch ramps. The accessible boarding pier would have a length which is at least equal to other boarding piers provided at the facility. If no other boarding pier is provided, the pier would have a length equal to what would have been provided if no access requirements applied. The entire length of accessible boarding piers would be required to comply with the same technical provisions that apply to accessible boat slips. For example, at a launch ramp, if a 20-foot long accessible boarding pier is provided, the entire 20 feet must comply with the pier clearance requirements in 15.2.5. Likewise, if a 60-foot long accessible boarding pier is provided, the pier clearance requirements in 15.2.5 would apply to the entire 60 feet.

A15.2.5 Accessible Boat Slips. Although the minimum width of the clear pier space is 60 inches, it is recommended that piers be wider than 60 inches to improve the safety for persons with disabilities, particularly on floating piers.

A15.2.5.1 Clearances, Exception 3. Where the conditions in exception 3 are satisfied, existing facilities are only required to have one accessible boat slip with a pier clearance which runs the length of the slip. All other accessible slips are allowed to have the required pier clearance at the head of the slip. Under this exception, at piers with perpendicular boat slips, the width of most "finger piers" will remain unchanged. However, where mooring systems for floating piers are replaced as part of pier alteration projects, an opportunity may exist for increasing accessibility. Piers may be reconfigured to allow an increase in the number of wider finger piers, and serve as accessible boat slips.

Note my bolding added to A15.2.3. Seems to me that if the slips "reserved" are of sufficient width and with proper ramps and deck material then they are compliant. Then when the docks are full, the "handicapped" slips can be used by anyone. If all the docks/slips were compliant then there would be no need for any "reserved" spots. This would actually make sense as the intent of the ADA was not to give special treatment to people but rather to allow them access to facilities that all of us use. You'd think Wolfeboro could afford a laywer or two to figure this out. So next time the docks are full you can legally, and morally, use the "reserved" slips. Please hand the above to Mr Hanson along with a pound of sand.


So to answer "what's next" .... how wide are the docks ? How big are the gaps ? How high are any obstructions (ie - btw dock and land) ?

ps - I note the use of the wording "New" as in New boating facilities must comply. That doesn't mean old ones don't have to (or shouldn't) but I don't see it in the above. There's a job for a lawyer.

[wires1999]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

A good question and here's what I could find out ...

Thank you, thank you. well that seems to sum it up. Mr Hanson, or whomever is hassle(ing) us better stop or he himself will be up for disturbing the peace.

[Taz]

I think its time to write letters to the Wolfboro Town Manager and copy the selectman, the Wolfboro Police and Cheryl Killam of the Govenors Commission on Disability quoting the ADA information Mee n Mac found. Good find Mee n Mac!

[secondcurve]

Maybe the solution is for the town of Wolfeboro to ad TWO NEW boat slips. Better yet, maybe they can add a whole finger and designate two slips for handicap use. This would be a positive outcome in my opinion.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Maybe the solution is for the town of Wolfeboro to ad TWO NEW boat slips. Better yet, maybe they can add a whole finger and designate two slips for handicap use. This would be a positive outcome in my opinion.

How is that fair?

That is the same kind of "not thinking it through" attitude that started this mess.

If they add slips they should be first come first serve.

[secondcurve]

Islander:

Sometimes a solution to a problem is not exactly as you would like, rather it is an improvement over other solutions that are being proposed. This my friend is called a comprimise. You should try the concept sometime, it will make your life easier in the long run.

[wildwoodfam]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Islander:

Sometimes a solution to a problem is not exactly as you would like, rather it is an improvement over other solutions that are being proposed. This my friend is called a comprimise. You should try the concept sometime, it will make your life easier in the long run.

The way I see it sometimes the solution to the problem is going back to the way it was before the problem! Compromises are not always an appropriate solution SC.


The problem in this case was the lack of thought in creating "handicapped" slips - the solution as I see it would not be to create MORE dedicated space, because again, as I see it - the problem is that most people here on the forum and in Wolfeboro do not agree that there should be a handicap slip because this presents an unfair advantage for docking rights - meaning, the dock itself is not designed for handicapped boaters - its just a reserved space so the handicap boater doesnt need to queue up. The solution therefore it to eliminate the docks altogether and go back to waiting their turn for a dock space.

Then - there could be discussion about designing a system of docks designed specially for handicapped boaters - they would need to be floating docks to my way of thinking because they need to rise and fall along with the boats. This needs DISCUSSION and BUDGETING, and everything else that goes into the process.

Just my two cents! And no - I dont use the handicap spaces when I go, even thought they have been empty every time we go over. I wait my turn LIKE EVERYONE should!

[White Rook]

If the town or surrounding communities would really think about the HP docking space from the perspective of the HP boater, perhaps the main item should be that the HP space be as close to the parking lot as possible to minimize the individuals walking distance with a cane, walker, etc. It seems like that would be a practical and low cost solution.

If / when I get over to Wolfeboro, I'd make that suggestion to the individual that you folks keep mentioning that patrols the docks. As for specially modified docks that allow a wheel chair or other similar device to enter and exit a boat, I don't know if that will be practical and within the towns operating budget. As a HP myself, shortest walking distances are a great help to minimize my spent energy.

[SIKSUKR]

Great job M&M!If my memory and math are correct,I would think that town docks would only require one 40ft hc slip,which could be used by anyone if the rest of the docks are full.Did I interpret that correctly?

[jrc]

First, let me say that I think the handicapped spaces as they stand and especially how the town went about it, really stinks.

But I am really surprised about the general tone from some of the posters here. All this talk about giving an unfair advantage to the handicapped is a little disturbing. Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line. What about the 87 year old great-grandmother who can't take much sun. Or the 70 year old man who had a stroke and can't be out of his wheel chair for long periods. Or even the pregnant women, who may really need a bathroom now.

How many times have we been told that we should feel sorry for the taxes on million dollar waterfront. But I shouldn't worry about these people.

How many times have we been told, you're at the lake to have fun, what's the hurry. Your kids can't wait an extra 15-20 minutes for their ice cream while these people dock?

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by jrc

First, let me say that I think the handicapped spaces as they stand and especially how the town went about it, really stinks.

But I am really surprised about the general tone from some of the posters here. All this talk about giving an unfair advantage to the handicapped is a little disturbing. Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line. What about the 87 year old great-grandmother who can't take much sun. Or the 70 year old man who had a stroke and can't be out of his wheel chair for long periods. Or even the pregnant women, who may really need a bathroom now.

How many times have we been told that we should feel sorry for the taxes on million dollar waterfront. But I shouldn't worry about these people.

How many times have we been told, you're at the lake to have fun, what's the hurry. Your kids can't wait an extra 15-20 minutes for their ice cream while these people dock?

While I agree that while most of us are out there for pleasure, I just don't believe these spots are gonna help any boater with special needs. As others have mentioned there are no special facilities, just the ability to cut in line.

I also believe that any boater would gladly give way to allow any of those with the special circumstances that you list above to go in front of them.

Its called common courtesy.

I also notice from time to time there are people out there that abuse these privileges when on land.

Just my .02.

[parrothead]

I haven't been to the docks in question, but instead of reserving a number of slips as handicapped how about just one. The examples given on the forum for using these slips for their intended purpose, are of able bodied boaters with handicapped passengers. I would think a better idea would be to have a single slip that is near the parking lot and has some "equipment" that would actually help a handicapped individual get in and out of a boat. This could mean a lift chair or something else that could facilitate this individual in and out of a boat easier. Once the HP is assisted out of the boat then the abled bodied captain goes back in to the line to get to a dock. Handicapped parking spaces in land based parking lots are close to the stores and usually wider than a regular space. This is to cut down on the distance walked, and lift vans, or walkers, crutches, etc.
Now the one sticking point is the if the handicapped person is driving the boat and then could not use the assistance provided and then dock the boat else where. But by the sounds of it for these individuals the current slips provide no more benefit than any other slip on the docks. And in fact ones closer to the parking lot would be preferrable. By the description these slips are easier to dock at than the ones closer to the shore, ie don't have pull between boats to get to the slips. Just my .02 as well. I don't think that a handicapped person should be detered from getting out and enjoying the lake and the different locations around lake. But it does sound like all these slips do is cut down on the time spent waiting in line with the rest of us. I am all for the ADA and what it can do, when used properly this just doesn't sound like one of those times.

[parrothead]

I guess it took me too long to type my last message, so I second what Jan says.

[Jan]

Originally Posted by jrc

Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line.

First I want to make it clear that I never park in handicapped spots and have scolded people who use them improperly. This is different. People should be able to look for a solution that makes the most sense without being accused of being unsympathetic.

Handicapped spots for cars are important to allow handicapped people easier access to stores and other essential services. Handicapped boat spots do not provide easier access, only a shorter wait. Also, a handicapped car driver is frequently alone doing their errands while a boater usually has a group of people with them. Is it fair to let a whole boatload of people cut in line because one passenger has a handicap?

Wouldn't the obvious, fair and most effective solution be to provide a handicapped DROP-OFF area? Equip it with a ramp or lift where people could drop-off the handicapped person and then get in line for a spot. I don't think anyone would object to that.

Even with a ramp or lift getting a handicapped person from the boat to the dock is hazardous at best. Take a look at this video that my husband showed me. It is both funny and painful to watch. Why would you put a handicapped person in such a position?

[kjbathe]

Originally Posted by Jan

Is it fair to let a whole boatload of people cut in line because one passenger has a handicap?

Wouldn't the obvious, fair and most effective solution be to provide a handicapped DROP-OFF area?

This assumes that the handicapped individual can dis/embark the vessel without assistance and/or remain unassisted once on the dock. It's a fast and slippery slope to assume that all handicaps are equal, can be accommodated by the same equipment, or that folks can be dropped off at all.

I don't have a good solution here... I'm not insensitive to the handicaps of others. I have both healthy and disabled veterans in my family, some that are too proud to think they warrant any special privileges. ADA compliance and wanting to fill the gap for the all-too-common lack of common sense/courtesy are good things in my opinion. But implementation of a solution in this case that makes sense and addresses the need in a reasonable way is escaping me at the moment.

With that, I think we've all gone full circle on this one. The spots are there, there's no enforcement, the decent people will let those less fortunate pass -- as they would even if the blue spots didn't exist. And the rest of the world will, unfortunately, still be in a rush, on the phone, too important, and decrying any advantage that someone else may have over them even if said "advantage" came at the cost of a stroke, service to our country, debilitating accident beyond their control, or simply a long happy life and a failing body.

[KTO]

Originally Posted by kjbathe

This assumes that the handicapped individual can dis/embark the vessel without assistance and/or remain unassisted once on the dock. It's a fast and slippery slope to assume that all handicaps are equal, can be accommodated by the same equipment, or that folks can be dropped off at all.

Exactly what I was saying...and I agree with you 100%.

Most boaters with common sense would let some suffering person have the nearest boat slip...I know I would.

It's just ridiculous.... Protest time?

[Jan]

Originally Posted by kjbathe

This assumes that the handicapped individual can dis/embark the vessel without assistance and/or remain unassisted once on the dock.

Obviously another passenger would assist and accompany them.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by jrc

First, let me say that I think the handicapped spaces as they stand and especially how the town went about it, really stinks.

But I am really surprised about the general tone from some of the posters here. All this talk about giving an unfair advantage to the handicapped is a little disturbing. Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line. What about the 87 year old great-grandmother who can't take much sun. Or the 70 year old man who had a stroke and can't be out of his wheel chair for long periods. Or even the pregnant women, who may really need a bathroom now.

How many times have we been told that we should feel sorry for the taxes on million dollar waterfront. But I shouldn't worry about these people.

How many times have we been told, you're at the lake to have fun, what's the hurry. Your kids can't wait an extra 15-20 minutes for their ice cream while these people dock?

Do they give out handicapped placards for pregnancy and sun sensitivity? I don't think so. I have no problem allowing someone with an emergency, even a small emergency, to cut to the front of the line.

A 5 to 15 minute drop off or pick up zone is the best idea. Many town docks have them already.

[wires1999]

Originally Posted by Islander

Do they give out handicapped placards for pregnancy and sun sensitivity? I don't think so. I have no problem allowing someone with an emergency, even a small emergency, to cut to the front of the line.

A 5 to 15 minute drop off or pick up zone is the best idea. Many town docks have them already.

The more I read these posts the more ridiculous it sounds. Why, why, why in the world do we need handicap spots for boats? I don't get it. Wait in line like the rest of us. Someone on the dock WILL always help you get out of your boat or help you tie up if you need it. I've been boating for 30 yrs on this lake and have always helped a fellow boater dock and have also been helped with a docking situation if I needed it. Give me a break people, this is getting out of hand. Boating IS NOT a necessity as with other places of business where I support the ADA. Come on who started this handicap dock thing. Step up and tell us the real reason, don't like to wait like the rest of us? I, we, owe you something? come on.