...eeek.....it's back.....eek....oh-no!

[fatlazyless]

....it's back....it's out there.....under a solid foot of hard clear ice.....cruising around & turning this way & that, quick....da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da (theme from the movie JAWS here) da-da-da-da!...quick, run for your life and get back up on the shore! ...the speed limits is back....take a peek at todays www.citizen.com

[Seaplane Pilot]

From the Citizen Article:

Helve said the failure of some legislators to support last year's speed limit proposal played a part in them not being re-elected.

"This is certainly an important state issue. We have to protect our children and their family, but it isn't just about safety … it's quality of life," said Helve.

I'd like some specific examples.

[Woodsy]

Good ole Sandy! She summed it up in a nutshell.... "It isn't just about safety, its about quality of life."

There it is.... THE REAL AGENDA! If it were truly about safety, there would be all sorts of data to bolster thier position. In FACT, there is ABSOLUTELY NO DATA to bolster thier position.

They don't like hi-perfromance boats, plain and simple. I am glad to see they finally admitted it!

Woodsy

[Island-Ho]

Yes, I think it is about quality of life, but safety is also a concern, and one that gets more attention. I can't count the number of times I've been awakened late at night by a GFBL, or couldn't be heard in a normal conversation over the roar of one of these in the distance. The owners of these boats have brought this upon themselves - and the issue would probably die down if they just put a decent muffler system on the engine(s)!

[Woodsy]

Island Ho...

I am personally all for strict noise legislation enforcement...

Why they don't allow Quick & Quiet Exhaust systems (as long as you PASS the noise test BOTH ways) is beyond me! It would certainly save quite a bit of animosity between the two sides...

As far as the "Safety" aspect I just don't agree with the WinnFabs position. There isn't ANY NH accident data at all that supports a safety argument for a speed limit!

Woodsy

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Winnfabs starting there "sky is falling" campaign. They are really full of themselves if they believe that legislators lost elections due to one topic. Woodsy statement is correct, there is NO factual data to support this. The group is getting their jump on their scare tactics.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Island-Ho

Yes, I think it is about quality of life, but safety is also a concern, and one that gets more attention. I can't count the number of times I've been awakened late at night by a GFBL, or couldn't be heard in a normal conversation over the roar of one of these in the distance. The owners of these boats have brought this upon themselves - and the issue would probably die down if they just put a decent muffler system on the engine(s)!

Safety and noise are two totally different issues not to be confused. How can you mention safety as a concern but go on to dwell on noise? When was the last time a boating accident was caused by a loud exhaust distracting someone?

There are already noise laws and Woodsy brought up the very point that I have thought of time and time again. Switchable exhaust not being allowed is ridiculous, as long as the louder setting still meets the current standard at which noise is measured.

Ever heard the saying "loud pipes save lives" in reference to bikes? If you can hear them coming you should have plenty of time to react to a situation.

[SeaBass]

Good Lord,

There is absolutely NO reason to have a speed limit, especially on the broads. Rarely has a boat been within 200 yards of myself when crossing. How 'bout instituting an on water boat test and getting rid of all these "boaters"? I know there are a 1/2 dozen people at our marina who won't even take their boat out because they don't know how it works or will handle in different conditions. Weight is the issue, not speed, small boats are scared because a 4 foot rollers coming off behind the titanic.

Haven't the people who keep bringing this issue up every year for the past 20 years, died already?

There are way too many important issues going on in this country. If the people who put their annoying talents of enacting rules and laws upon us, would do something useful during their lives they could actually serve a purpose. Maybe that politician you have been nudging up his/her behind could concentrate on some important issues. Instead of the possible boat fatality that MIGHT happen next year or the following year. How many people died driving a car/motorcyle to the lake last year? Maybe rte 93 north should have a special speed limit of 10mph and that would stop accidents.

I have been on that lake for 34 years. Sure, there are quite a bit more snotty jerks moving in this area than ever before. But, dammit, relax and enjoy. I am much more worried about some wealthy elderly man driving a 38 cruiser yacht through the channel than I am a 30 year old driving a Cobalt in the broads at 55mph.

Before you ask, I have a 1997 252 Cobalt that the speedo has hit 53mph once.

Republicans or Democrats. Can't we all get along? Must there be segregation still in this country?

See you on the lake concentrating on enjoying my family time.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by SeaBass

There is absolutely NO reason to have a speed limit, especially on the broads.

If people in smaller, slower boats are afraid to go out on lakes because of the high speeds that some of the boats are traveling – isn’t that a reason?

Weight is the issue, not speed, small boats are scared because a 4 foot rollers coming off behind the titanic.

My boat is a 50-pound sea kayak, which is definitely a small boat. And for me, speed is the issue, not weight. I can handle 4-foot rollers just fine.

This is an important issue. Just because you don’t personally see it as one, that doesn’t mean that others don’t. Boats traveling at high speeds on busy lakes do have a major negative impact on us paddlers.

[lifeonthefarm]

"loud pipes" don't save lives on the lake. They are illegal because you wouldn't be able to hear a Sound Producing Device if one was being blown to get your attention...

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

If people in smaller, slower boats are afraid to go out on lakes because of the high speeds that some of the boats are traveling – isn’t that a reason?

My boat is a 50-pound sea kayak, which is definitely a small boat. And for me, speed is the issue, not weight. I can handle 4-foot rollers just fine.

This is an important issue. Just because you don’t personally see it as one, that doesn’t mean that others don’t. Boats traveling at high speeds on busy lakes do have a major negative impact on us paddlers.

If we start legislating against fear, where does it stop? I'm afraid of drivers under 18 and above 85. Can we pass a law to get them off the road? I'm afraid of big trucks on the highway when its raining, can we restrict them?

Fear is an emotion that can be controled by understanding the risks and addressing them. If someone can't control their fear, then they should stay away from the situation that triggers the emotion. I'm sure there are sea kayakers who could enjoy a hot busy day in July, without fear taking over.

Lawmakers should be careful that the fear of some does not become a common justification to restrict those who are not scared. Unfortunately, laws against causing fear are becoming more acceptable, as we recently saw in Boston. An innocent light box advertisement on a bridge scared up $1 million dollars worth of panic money and got someone arrested.

I think that I'm in the same category as many others (including fellow sailboat and kayak pilots). I'm fighting against the slippery slope of fear laws from creaping into the "live free or die" state. Let's use the power of law to make the lake safe and clean before we start worrying about a political action committee's definition of their "quality of life".

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

If we start legislating against fear, where does it stop? I'm afraid of drivers under 18 and above 85. Can we pass a law to get them off the road? I'm afraid of big trucks on the highway when its raining, can we restrict them? Fear is an emotion that can be controled by understanding the risks and addressing them. If someone can't control their fear, then they should stay away from the situation that triggers the emotion. I'm sure there are sea kayakers who could enjoy a hot busy day in July, without fear taking over. ...

30 of our RSA’s contain the word “fear”, 246 RSA’s contain the word “harm”, and 236 more contain the word “danger”. So we have all sorts of laws with regards to the fear of injury, or to protect people from potentially dangerous or harmful acts or conditions. Protection of individuals or of groups of individuals from harm is one of the main reasons for passing laws in this state.

NH RSA TITLE XXII 270:1:II states that following: “In the interest of maintaining the residential, recreational and scenic values which New Hampshire public waters provide to residents of the state and to the promotion of our tourist industry, and in light of the fact that competing uses for the enjoyment of these waters, if not regulated for the benefit of all users, may diminish the value to be derived from them, it is hereby declared that the public waters of New Hampshire shall be maintained and regulated in such way as to provide for the safe and mutual enjoyment of a variety of uses, both from the shore and from water-borne conveyances. Such provisions shall take into consideration the following: the variety of special uses appropriate to our lakes, public safety, protection of environment and water quality, and the continued nurture of New Hampshire's threatened and endangered species.”

In my opinion, our public waters are not being regulated very well, if a small percentage of the boating population is causing a larger percentage of the public to avoid these same waters – for whatever reasons.

I happen to have a great deal of contact with other paddlers, so I know for a fact that many of these paddlers avoid paddling on many of New Hampshire’s larger lakes (and especially on Winnipesauke) because they are afraid of the high speed powerboats. And I don’t believe that this fear is unfounded – it is based on the actual risks of sharing the water with boats that are traveling at 15 to 30 times our speed – and the fact that the operators of these boats may not see us.

This same fear (concern, apprehension, uncomfortableness, or whatever you want to call it), which is keeping many paddlers off of these public waters, is (in my opinion) the very reason that we don’t have kayakers and canoeists being killed by powerboaters. The thing is, if paddlers weren’t so afraid to use these waters, there would be more of us out on them, and there would be more accidents – which would then certainly lead to a speed limit law.

[Dave R]

Evenstar, please tell me you got out on Winnipesaukee in your kayak over the Summer. I was on the lake at least 25 full days, and due to last year's early season speed limit debates, I was especially vigilant about looking for paddlers and high speed boats. I saw huge numbers of paddlers who appeared to be having fun and enjoying the lake, and none that acted frightened. I also saw a very small number of fast moving boats, none of which did anything unsafe while I was watching. The worst offenders regarding safety were folks in "family" boats looking kinda clueless, and they were few and far between, compared to previous years. I think you and your friends are missing out on a good time due to irrational fears.

[Evenstar]

Yes I got out on Winni a number of times last summer (during the week), but I always had to talk my kayaking friend into going there – as she’s just not comfortable on that lake, due to the speed of some of the powerboats (her words, not mine).

First of all, were you out in a kayak? Because it’s one thing to observe kayaks from the perspective of a powerboat, and it’s very different to be out there in one. I have personally enjoyed most of my time out on the lake, so I would also appear to be having fun to most of the passing powerboats. But there are definitely times when I felt less than safe. Some powerboats and jet skis came way too close to us last summer and many were traveling at fairly high speeds. Yes there is the 150’ law, but if someone is going to break it (which happens all the time), I’d much rather they were going 45 or less, as this can be a rather terrifying experience at higher speeds (and I’m talking from personal experience here). I would almost guarantee that several boaters didn’t even notice us until they were practically upon us (either that or they were just trying to scare us – which they very successfully did).

When I kayak on a lake, I do talk with other paddlers and many of their stories and safety concerns mirror mine. The only kayakers who don’t seem to have as many problems with powerboats are the ones that never venture from the coves or hug the shores – but most of those paddles still have strong safety concerns (which is why they stay off the main lake).

When I kayak, I don’t stay in the coves or hug the shores – I’m out there on the main lake – and I’m out there for hours – covering many miles of lake. And I have NEVER spent a day kayaking on Winni when I did not experience fear that an approaching high speed powerboat was not aware that I was there (based on their actions).

You can say my fears are irrational. But I’m a pretty rational person and I consider myself to be rather adventurous and therefore braver than most; so I feel that my fears are very rational – and that they are very valid.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

... I consider myself to be rather adventurous and therefore braver than most; ...

Yeah, right...

It is one thing to state that you are brave; but to state that you are braver than most while using fear as a reason for mandating your lifestyle upon others is absurd.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Maybe kayaks don't belong in the broads. Same reasoning. Even if there were hypothetically a 45mph limit, Kayaks can not keep up with traffic. They certainly create a hazard to themselves and other boaters. Same reason mopeds aren't allowed on interstates, can not stay with the flow of traffic, and are putting themselves in harms way and hindering all others.

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Maybe kayaks don't belong in the broads. Same reasoning. Even if there were hypothetically a 45mph limit, Kayaks can not keep up with traffic. They certainly create a hazard to themselves and other boaters.

Very revealing comment. My boat probably can't keep up with yours. Am I a hazard, too?

Actually, people who kayak as a sport can use the same argument that people with oversized boats use. They need wide-open stretches of water so they can paddle at high speed (yes, it is fast - but not your kind of fast).

Most people don't paddle in the broads, but rather cross from island to island, which requires paddling across fairly large, open areas of water. It's unavoidable. And it's very frightening to see large boats moving toward you at very high speed - and coming from multiple directions. You have no idea whether they can see you or whether they are focusing instead on the more obvious (motor) boats they notice. When you are sitting a few inches deep into the water, with nothing but a small shell around you and a paddle to wave, there is nothing irrational about that, Dave R.

And I was not at the lake for 25 days - I was there for the whole summer. Sure, there were fewer boats this summer, I agree. The number of paddlers is down significantly from what it was many years ago. And that is not because there are fewer paddlers out there - instead the sport is growing fast. The few I saw came by mostly in the early morning or mid-week when the boat traffic was low.

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Same reason mopeds aren't allowed on interstates, can not stay with the flow of traffic, and are putting themselves in harms way and hindering all others.

WBB, there is no "flow of traffic" on a lake. Boats go in any direction they wish.

No, I'm not a crazed kayaker. I kayak around the island, that's all, maybe now and then to an adjacent island. I used to kayak a lot, but now I'm too afraid to go much farther than that. And yes, I do like to go "fast" in my boat (it's top speed is probably 45 or 50).

[Lakewinniboater]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Maybe kayaks don't belong in the broads. Same reasoning. Even if there were hypothetically a 45mph limit, Kayaks can not keep up with traffic. They certainly create a hazard to themselves and other boaters. Same reason mopeds aren't allowed on interstates, can not stay with the flow of traffic, and are putting themselves in harms way and hindering all others.

Not much to say except.... GOOD POINT!!!!! I can't tell you how many times I have seen Canoer's and Kayaker's in places that simply were not common sense and were visibly IRRITATED (not afraid or fearful) of the other boater's that WERE obeying the rules and laws!

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by GWC...

Yeah, right... It is one thing to state that you are brave; but to state that you are braver than most while using fear as a reason for mandating your lifestyle upon others is absurd.

Why can't you guys discuss this issue without making personal attacks on people who don't share your views?

First of all I did not "state" that I was braver than most - what I wrote was that "I consider myself to be rather adventurous and therefore braver than most" . . . which is my personal opinion (and one that you are in no position to judge, since you don't even know me).

Secondly I am not "mandating my lifestyle" on anyone. I was accused of having irrational fears, and I merely tried to explain my position in that area. In an earlier post I was just trying to point out that there are indeed reasons for having a speed limit - many here may not agree with those reasons, but they are still reasons.

[secondcurve]

I'd vote for the speed limit if I thought it would make a difference. Unfortunately, it won't. So why bother? The lake doesn't work for many small kayaks and canoes these days due to heavy traffic. I have a 23 foot deep V boat (max speed 38 mph in perfect conditions) and I wouldn't think of boating in anything smaller on Winnipesaukee. I have been boating for 2-seasons on the lake, for a total of about 110 hours, and I can't recall an incident where speed was an issue. Perhaps it is because I have operated in a watercraft that is appropriate for the conditions?

The simple fact of the matter is that most parts of Winnipesaukee are unfit for small watercraft and this isn't going to change. Certainly, anyone who ventures into the broads on a small watercraft is taking a fair amount of personal risk. The good news is that there are many smaller lakes and ponds in the area that are perfect for small watercraft.

Finally, the only way I see to make the lake safer is to crack down on existing illegal activity and to get the booze out. How about a law that makes open containers illegal? Im not saying I'd be for it, but it would make a hell of a lot more difference than a speed limit.

[Cal]

The smaller the vessel , the more danger is involved , regardless of speed.
I personally wouldn't kayak across the broads because it's a kayak , not because of speed. I would be more concerned with lake and/or weather conditions. A fast moving thunderstorm is a lot faster than any kayak. It doesn't matter how strong a swimmer you are or what type of flotation devices you have , battling 30 or 40 mph winds and 4 or 5 foot waves for a half hour could be just as fatal as a 40' boat doing 80 mph.
Maybe we could ban thunderstorms or limit wind speed and wave height too
I'd like to say "If you can't keep up with the big dogs , get out of the game" , but I won't because you certainly have a right to be out there too. Just like you see people doing STUPID things on the highway(and they have speed limits) , you'll also see it on the water.
So get over it and get out there and enjoy it anyway

[Silver Duck]

I think that Evenstar hit the nail on the head in her second post when she said "and the fact that the operators of those boats may not see us".

But, IMHO, the danger is caused more by Captain Bonehead not paying rnough attention to what's around him, or having had one too many "brewskis", or just plain running too fast for the visibility than by running above 45 mph. Sadly, I've seen Captain B at the helm of everything from PWCs to bowriders to cruisers.

There is nothing magical about 45 mph that makes it an intrinsically safe speed; many times and places it's much too fast for the visibility or the crowded conditions, while other times and places it's quite possible to go faster in perfect safety (so long as the operator is keeping a sharp watch).

Certainly 45 mph is not slow enough to make a collision safe. God forbid that it should ever happen, but if a canoe or a kayak gets run over because Captain Bonehead isn't watching where he's going, the results aren't going to be much different whether it happens at 25 mph, 45 mph, or 75 mph.

I'm not without sympathy for the folks that are intimidated by having a boat bearing down on them at high speed. Been there, done that in my younger days racing small sailboats, and I "gay-ron-tee" that having a boat bearing down on you at 45 is still going to produce a very high "pucker factor".

Heck, even in my 29 ft. cruiser I've had the "pucker factor" kick in wondering "does that idiot see me", especially at night. But, short of making the entire lake headway speed at all times, I don't think that we can make it completely safe to share the lake with Captain B when he's not paying attention. Certainly, a 45 mph speed limit will not do the trick, and 25 mph is way, way too fast on a dark, cloudy night.

Besides, as became apparent during the last go around, the root of this whole speed limit effort is really about driving performance boats off the lake!

Silver Duck

[Chris Craft]

From a guy that has 36 years of sailing exp. including offshore racing and being involved in the US Olypic Sailing Team, and about 16 years of running high performance to include offshore power boat races (I did run in the races on the Lake). Ok great now you know I am not a 2 bit newbe hack...

The "GFBL" did bring this on themselves. We are the monority no doubt and in the past definatly made out presence felt. However, now we are REQUIRED to be under a certain DB limit.

I know of no accident that this would have stopped. Does anyone? I may be wrong? I have found that when people run their boats fast they are very focussed on what they do. There is really nothing that can distract you while driving fast.

I do not think that people going 45 is all of the sudden going to make being out in the middle of the lake in a Kayak safe.

I have heard two arguments from the pro side that seem to contradict one another. They say that the lake is over crowded and unsafe becaues of this. Then they say that people are afraid to go out. Well would that not make the lake more crowded and exaserbate the problem?

Over the last few years we have seen accident in NH be I believe it is cut in half. This is double what the national average is. The required licenses are working. They could be tougher to get and I am all for that. I got mine on line and I thought that was a bit of a joke. Lucky for everyone else I have as much experience as I do. I can see how people that do not would not benifiet from it.

Jon

[Evenstar]

Just because a vessel is smaller does not make it more dangerous. There’s a whole bunch more than size to consider - such as the ability and knowledge of the operator, as well as the design of the vessel.

Ok, I explained all this last year in great detail (to the same people posting here now), but apparently you still don’t understand. A sea kayak is not the same type of boat as a recreational kayak. My kayak is made for large bodies of water, not small lakes and ponds. I cover 20 miles of lake in an afternoon and 4-foot waves and wind conditions aren’t usually that much of a problem – and I’ve never been out in what I would call dangerous weather conditions (I do check the weather reports – and I do keep a watch on the sky). On winni there are only a few spots where you can be more than a mile for some shoreline – which means that I can almost always reach a shore within 15 minutes. I’m also an experienced kayaker – not some beginner and I never go out without safety equipment - plus I’m in great shape – and I don’t paddle alone on the larger lakes.

A 45 mph speed is not a magical number, but it is (in my opinion) a reasonable speed (just like 65 is a reasonable speed for most sections of the Interstate). What a speed limit does do is that it gives something concrete for people to follow (and for officers to use). And if you don’t believe that a speed limit makes a difference, go visit Squam – and look at the number of kayaks and canoes out on that lake.

[Cal]

Just because a vessel is smaller does not make it more dangerous.

OK , I guess that just about sez it all

It sounds like "Golden Pond" is a real nice place to kayak

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by lifeonthefarm

"loud pipes" don't save lives on the lake. They are illegal because you wouldn't be able to hear a Sound Producing Device if one was being blown to get your attention...

Thus the smiley face, a simple joke... Chill.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Yes I got out on Winni a number of times last summer (during the week), but I always had to talk my kayaking friend into going there – as she’s just not comfortable on that lake, due to the speed of some of the powerboats (her words, not mine).

During the week the place is a ghost town, I am not sure what Winnipesaukee you are talking about...I am sure the few boats that are out and about are always coming close to running you down. Gimme a break. And the fact that these so called close calls are always performance boats traveling at high speeds sounds like an even bigger load...

While we are on the subject, you don't find it dangerous to be out in the middle of the broads in 4-5' waves on "busy" days? With 4-5' waves you will be out of sight as much as you will be in sight unless you are as tall as big bird, and as bright yellow. Take into account other factors such as glare/visibility, wind, etc and you are endangering youself and people in other vessels, including power boats.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by codeman671

During the week the place is a ghost town, I am not sure what Winnipesaukee you are talking about...I am sure the few boats that are out and about are always coming close to running you down. Gimme a break. And the fact that these so called close calls are always performance boats traveling at high speeds sounds like an even bigger load...

First of all I don’t lie – and I’m not exaggerating anything that I’ve written here. I’m being 100% truthful, and I haven’t attacked anyone – yet you guys can’t seem to make a point without getting all personal about it.

Have I have written anything that personally offended you?
If so . . . I really didn't mean to and I'm sorry.
If not, then what is it that you don't like about me? Most people who actually know me seem to think that I'm a pretty nice person.

And please don't misquote me - I wrote "Some powerboats and jet skis came way too close to us last summer and many were traveling at fairly high speeds. I never wrote "always".

Now to address your other comments:

The truth is that I’ve only been on winni during the week, and it’s always been really far from a “ghost town” – but I’m talking about nice days in mid summer (just in case that wasn’t clear). Just getting around Governors Island can be a real challenge on any day of the week, due to the number of boats coming and going.

While we are on the subject, you don't find it dangerous to be out in the middle of the broads in 4-5' waves on "busy" days? With 4-5' waves you will be out of sight as much as you will be in sight unless you are as tall as big bird, and as bright yellow. Take into account other factors such as glare/visibility, wind, etc and you are endangering youself and people in other vessels, including power boats.

When did I write that I go out in the middle of the broads in 4 to 5 foot waves on busy days? All I wrote was that I have been out in 4 foot waves and that they weren’t usually that much of a problem. My point was that my kayak is made for those conditions and I happen to know through experience that I can handle most weather conditions . . . if I have to. I don’t venture out in 4-foot waves – but conditions can change in a hurry so I might have to (and have had to) deal with rough weather from time to time, just like anyone who spends time out on large lakes.

When I am in big waves 50% of the time I’m extremely visible – because I’m up there on top of the wave – and my kayak is bright red on top, with a white hull – my PFD is bright red – my drytop is bright orange, and my paddles are bright orange – my friend has the bright yellow (Big Bird) kayak. So any operator in a powerboat that is traveling at a reasonable speed in those conditions would have to be blind or just not paying attention to not see us (especially since powerboats aren't traveling at high speeds in 4-foot waves).

So exactly how am I endangering people in other vessels?

[JDeere]

Hmmmmmm I wonder why real-estate on Squam is valued almost 2x what Winni is. Could it be that peace and safety have a value added component to it?

The argument against the speed limit is based on ignorance of boating in other parts of the country. Any one boated in the ICW and dealt with speed limits, and long, long, long no wakes to protect the manatees?

[Dave R]

Evenstar, I'm glad you got out on the lake. Sorry it lived up to your expectations. Were any of the boats or PWCs that frightened you actually going more than 45? That's at or near wide open throttle for most power boats. Most folks don't typically operate at or near WOT much.

You wrote of difficulty getting around Governer's Island. That's generally the most crowded part of the entire lake. I only go near there when necessary. One would be hard pressed to maintain more than 45 MPH around that island due to the crowding. You sure it's not the crowds that make paddling on Winnipesaukee no fun? I imagine Squam is substantially less crowded and therefore more fun for paddling. Considering most power boats top out under 50, I seriously doubt the speed limit on that lake is the reason for its reduced popularity, I imagine its proximity to Winnipesuakee has much more to do with it.

[Evenstar]

Dave:

Some of the boats that we were very concerned about were traveling well in excess of 45mph, including one that came within 50 or 60 feet of us, as we were heading out of Center Harbor – at least we know that the operator saw us, because he was staring at us and grinning. When we crossed large stretches of open water (between islands), we often saw boats that were going faster than 45, some never got very close, some got closer than we liked, and some slowed way down as soon as they got anywhere near us.

A couple of the jet skis in Center Harbor were going pretty fast, but maybe not over 45 – mostly they were annoying, because they kept circling us – trying to get a better look as they showed off (we weren’t impressed). That was my partially own fault – it was a very hot day and I wearing a bikini.

It is impossible to tell exactly how fast someone is going on the water, but I spend so much time on Squam, where the 40mph speed limit gives me a pretty good idea of what that speed looks like, that it’s pretty easy to tell if a boat is going way faster than that.

My point about Governor’s Island was in response to the comment that the lake was a “ghost town” during the week. We didn’t encounter any boats traveling at high speed until we were well away from that traffic.

Squam has a lot of powerboats on it on weekends – it can be a real pain at times just to get to the river connecting Squam with Little Squam. In my opinion the 40 mph speed limit is what makes Squam feel safe to paddle, not the number of powerboats. Crossing large stretches of open water is not nearly as intimidating when powerboats are approaching you at slower speeds.

I live near a 10 mile lake and that can be a scary place to paddle on some weekends, not because there are so many boats (because the lake is not crowded), but because so many of the operators seem to think that their boats only have two speeds – stop and go (at full throttle).

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Dave:

\It is impossible to tell exactly how fast someone is going on the water, but I spend so much time on Squam, where the 40mph speed limit gives me a pretty good idea of what that speed looks like, that it’s pretty easy to tell if a boat is going way faster than that.
(at full throttle).

I respectfully agree with your first part of the paragraph and disagree with the last part.

I was in my ski boat in MA in a small lake. We like to go there because we are usually the only boat on the lake and it makes for perfect water skiing. There is a speed limit on all inland lakes in MA (45mph). I never went over 40mph all day as I knew that there were police watching us all day. When I went to pull my boat out of the water the police came and paid me a visit. They said that I was traveling in excess of 60 mph. They said that they knew that based on the rooster tail that my boat was putting up. The problem with their observation is that when this boat goes slower it puts out a larger rooster tail. Something that they did not understand. They after a nice discussion with them asked me to prove it. So I made a pass at 45 and another at 80. They thanked me after the demonstration and said that they were truly deceived. Now these are trained officers that do this for a living not just the summer. As has been said most boats are not capable of the speeds that you think that they are. Most on GPS will top out at about 40mph. Keck my Formula speed boat tops out at 55 . I am sure that it looks like it is going a lot faster but it is not.

My other issue is that my windsurfers travel well in excess of 45 mph. I have been clocked on one at 64mph. So I risk getting a ticket on one. Kind of takes the fun out of it if ya know what I mean....

I wish that I could agree with your assertion that you will be safer with people traveling a little slower but I can't. The accident rate has dropped faster in NH that any other state and that includes states that have implemented speed limits. The facts just do not seem to point towards your point except for the noise issue. As for that the manufacturers have made a HUGE effort to quite their boats. I think that you would be surprised at how well you can see in front of you at speed.

Hang in there everyone it is going to be a LONG winter

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Dave:

Some of the boats that we were very concerned about were traveling well in excess of 45mph, including one that came within 50 or 60 feet of us, as we were heading out of Center Harbor – at least we know that the operator saw us, because he was staring at us and grinning. When we crossed large stretches of open water (between islands), we often saw boats that were going faster than 45, some never got very close, some got closer than we liked, and some slowed way down as soon as they got anywhere near us.

A couple of the jet skis in Center Harbor were going pretty fast, but maybe not over 45 – mostly they were annoying, because they kept circling us – trying to get a better look as they showed off (we weren’t impressed). That was my partially own fault – it was a very hot day and I wearing a bikini.

It is impossible to tell exactly how fast someone is going on the water, but I spend so much time on Squam, where the 40mph speed limit gives me a pretty good idea of what that speed looks like, that it’s pretty easy to tell if a boat is going way faster than that.

My point about Governor’s Island was in response to the comment that the lake was a “ghost town” during the week. We didn’t encounter any boats traveling at high speed until we were well away from that traffic.

Squam has a lot of powerboats on it on weekends – it can be a real pain at times just to get to the river connecting Squam with Little Squam. In my opinion the 40 mph speed limit is what makes Squam feel safe to paddle, not the number of powerboats. Crossing large stretches of open water is not nearly as intimidating when powerboats are approaching you at slower speeds.

I live near a 10 mile lake and that can be a scary place to paddle on some weekends, not because there are so many boats (because the lake is not crowded), but because so many of the operators seem to think that their boats only have two speeds – stop and go (at full throttle).

Your post above makes a few great points that bolster the fact that a speed limit is not necessary. If a boat is traveling 50-60 feet from you at running speed, close enough that you can pick out a grin on the idiot drivers face then they have already broken an important, existing law, the 150' limit. If the driver never breaches the 150' rule you will never get hit. Period.

The people on the PWC had the right to circle around at speed as long as they are not breaching the rule as well. It may be annoying but unless they were within 150' of each other or you they were not breaking the law. No speed issue here.

I do have to beg to differ about estimating speed on water, it is no as easy as one would think. How do you truly know that those boats on Squam are doing 40mph just because there is a speed limit? The difference between 45mph and 55mph on water of an object that is a good distance away cannot be pinpointed by just looking at it...Unless that kayak of yours has a radar gun built in I would not make guesses, because without one they are just guesses.

I will say however that bikinis look better at distances closer than 150' and at slower speeds, so maybe some pictures would help the arguement.

Maybe a lake-wide dress code?

[secondcurve]

Codeman:

Sometimes bikinis look better at distances of further than 150 feet, which quite possibly applies here.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Your post above makes a few great points that bolster the fact that a speed limit is not necessary. If a boat is traveling 50-60 feet from you at running speed, close enough that you can pick out a grin on the idiot drivers face then they have already broken an important, existing law, the 150' limit. If the driver never breaches the 150' rule you will never get hit. Period.

How does the fact that some boaters are breaking one law negate the need for a totally different law? The way that I see it, the very fact that the 150' rule is being broken is a strong point for the need of a speed limit. Since powerboats are coming closer than 150' to me, my chances of being hit increases as their speed increases, since higher speeds = less time to avoid me.

I have spent enough time out on the water to know when a boat is going way faster than 40 or 45 mph.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Codeman:

Sometimes bikinis look better at distances of further than 150 feet, which quite possibly applies here.

Ok, so what did I do to deserve that comment?????

For the record I'm a 6-foot tall strawberry-blonde - who played on my college's woman's volleyball team last year - and I'm in great shape - and I do fill out my bikini top.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Codeman:

Sometimes bikinis look better at distances of further than 150 feet, which quite possibly applies here.

Hilarious!!!

[Dave R]

Some folks just want a speed limit, regardless of the need. There's no statistics to back up a speed limit, it's all about feelings for these folks and there's nothing wrong with that. I would not expect to change any minds.

I'd be for a speed limit if I could see a need.

Regarding the fear of boats being irrational, post an accurate statistic showing high speed (45+ MPH) boat collisions with Kayaks on NH lakes and you'll change my mind. It just does not happen. Fear of something that does not occur is rational? Statistically, you're vastly more likely to drown in a kayak from your own mistakes.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Ok, so what did I do to deserve that comment?????

For the record I'm a 6-foot tall strawberry-blonde - who played on my college's woman's volleyball team last year - and I'm in great shape - and I do fill out my bikini top.

I guess the proof is in the picture...

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

How does the fact that some boaters are breaking one law negate the need for a totally different law? The way that I see it, the very fact that the 150' rule is being broken is a strong point for the need of a speed limit. Since powerboats are coming closer than 150' to me, my chances of being hit increases as their speed increases, since higher speeds = less time to avoid me.

I have spent enough time out on the water to know when a boat is going way faster than 40 or 45 mph.

Do you think that if someone is breaking a 150' law that they will obey the speed limit? If they obey the law that is on the books there is no issue, you will not get hit. While on topic before I start thinking of springtime and bikinis do you have any data to show the number of accidents in NH where a paddler was run down by a powerboat? I would be wiling to bet that more paddlers (canoe, kayak, rowboat, etc) die each year on their own than by being run down.

Enforcement of current laws is the answer. There was countless times last year that I witnessed 150' infringements, honestly dozens per day spent on the water. I sit on my dock and watch them right in front of the house, I don't even have to travel to witness it

I would have to guess that no more than 10-15% of the boats on the lake do over 50mph. Based on the dealers on the lake and what they are selling, most lines sold build boats that do 50mph or less.

So do you really think that adding a speed limit is really going to make a difference in your safety? Just another useless law targeting a very small percentage of boaters that I do not believe are the majority of the offenders. Only once last summer did I witness a performance boat (2 actually, racing by) that were pushing the realm of reasonable speed and distance. The average offender was the 21'-25' family boat that makes up the bulk of the boats on the lake.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Regarding the fear of boats being irrational, post an accurate statistic showing high speed (45+ MPH) boat collisions with Kayaks on NH lakes and you'll change my mind. It just does not happen. Fear of something that does not occur is rational? Statistically, you're vastly more likely to drown in a kayak from your own mistakes.

I've already explained the main reason why kayakers are not getting getting hit by powerboats - it's because most are staying off the main lake - because they don't feel safe out there with boats traveling at high speeds. Basically padders have been pushed off the larger bodies of water in NH.

Island Life brought up a good point:

The number of paddlers is down significantly from what it was many years ago. And that is not because there are fewer paddlers out there - instead the sport is growing fast. The few I saw came by mostly in the early morning or mid-week when the boat traffic was low.

I tried to explain this last year on this same forum - compared with other lakes, winni has a very small percentage of kayakers. And, from my own personal experience very few ever venture out of the coves or away from the shore very far - hardly any go on out on the main lake.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by codeman671

...Enforcement of current laws is the answer.

I've personally talked with a number of marine patrol officers, and guess what? The all were in favor of having a speed limit. And guess why? So that they would have something concrete to enforce. I was told that it's really hard to prove reckless operation, and it's not that easy to catch someome breaking the 150' rule (and even harder to prove).

I would have to guess that no more than 10-15% of the boats on the lake do over 50mph. Based on the dealers on the lake and what they are selling, most lines sold build boats that do 50mph or less.

Ok, so why are we letting 10-15% of the boaters keep others from feeling safe on our lakes?

I've brought this up many times: From the perspective of a kayaker, who has spent time out on both lakes in the middle of the summer - Squam, NH's 2nd largest lake, feels much safer than Wnnipesaukee. And the proof is in the number of paddlers out on Squam. If a speed limit has no effect, then why does Squam have so many more paddlers?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

I've personally talked with a number of marine patrol officers, and guess what? The all were in favor of having a speed limit. And guess why? So that they would have something concrete to enforce. I was told that it's really hard to prove reckless operation, and it's not that easy to catch someome breaking the 150' rule (and even harder to prove).

Funny, the many that I have talked to are against it. Guess what? Even the director of Marine Patrol has publicly stated that it is not the answer.

Guess what? Marine Patrol who is already spread thin can go in search of the small percentage of speeders who probably aren't endangering anyone, but when needed for an emergency non-speed related situation they will take longer to respond, putting others at risk.

Let's put a registration law in place for all kayaks, canoes, etc to help fund this resource sucking monster which you are trying to create. I am sure the complaints will fly then... I have always found it ridiculous that power boaters end up footing the bill for all while the paddlers get a free ride.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Let's put a registration law in place for all kayaks, canoes, etc to help fund this resource sucking monster which you are trying to create. I am sure the complaints will fly then... I have always found it ridiculous that power boaters end up footing the bill for all while the paddlers get a free ride.

What free ride? Paddling happens to be a real work out - rent a kayak sometime and I'll take you out on a lake and show you how much of free ride it is.

There's a couple of pretty good reasons: The marine patrol doesn't spend much time chasing down kayakers who are breaking laws. And kayakers are not polluting our public waters.

But I personally would have no problem with a reasonable registration fee for my kayak (and I've stated that before) - but I would then expect to be able to park in public boat launch areas, that are currently only open to trailers.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

What free ride? Paddling happens to be a real work out - try it some time and see how much of free ride it is.

I was clearly talking about money. Registrations.

And I have tried it. I prefer my boats to have engines. Not because I am lazy or opposed to exercise, because I do not get enjoyment from paddling around. I am not downing it, or downing those that do it, its just not my taste. I prefer grabbing a dozen or so friends and family and heading out for an afternoon or evening cruise.

As are you I am passionate about boating, just a different type. I grew up on the water, my family is well tied into the boating industry. I own 4 boats + 2 pwc and spend countless hours on the lake. I am on the lake before ice out is declared in the spring and boat until the week of ice-in in the winter. Call me crazy but it was quite fun to see the looks on peoples faces Saturday when I boated down the Weirs Channel during the Derby.

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

What free ride? Paddling happens to be a real work out - rent a kayak sometime and I'll take you out on a lake and show you how much of free ride it is.

There's a couple of pretty good reasons: The marine patrol doesn't spend much time chasing down kayakers who are breaking laws. And kayakers are not polluting our public waters.

But I personally would have no problem with a reasonable registration fee for my kayak (and I've stated that before) - but I would then expect to be able to park in public boat launch areas, that are currently only open to trailers.

Unfortunately hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent each year trying to find people that die in Canoe and Kayak related accidents. Usually caused by their own doing not speed of other boats.

One such accident caused the start of this bill in MA. http://www.vse.cape.com/~harborm/cih...smissing2.html

A quote from this bill:

The Firestone tires on Ford Explorers killed 200 people in rollovers between 1993 and 2002. During that same period, canoes and kayaks took a thousand US victims.**

[Evenstar]

I was only trying to make a joke (which is not something that I am very good at - sorry).

I do respect your type of preferred boating - and I have nothing at all against most powerboaters (just the ones that scare me). I just prefer kayaking, and I love the workout (I'm a bit hyper). I'm on the water in April just as soon as the ice is off in my area and I have kayaked well into November. I paddled over 500 miles over the past two years - so I also spend a great deal of time on the water.

I did address the registration idea in my last post - in all fairness a registration fee for non motorized boats should be a very small fee, since we have a much smaller impact, as far as any costs go.

[Island Life]

I have to hand it to you for staying in the fight, Evenstar, but I don't know why you bother. I get what you're saying and completely agree - really fast boats are scary to kayakers because you don't know if there will be enough time for them to react once they finally see you. But you're never going to change the minds of most of these people.

Everyone enjoys the Lake in their own way. Personally, I do enjoy speeding around in my boat once in a while (it's an old beater and probably can't top 45 or so on a good day). When I'm doing that, though, my experience is more about going fast and being outdoors with the wind through my hair; the fact that I'm on the lake is - for me - almost secondary at these times. But the Lake . . . the Lake I soak into my soul every day when I paddle quietly around the island, sit on my dock at night, listen to the loon, fish. These are the experiences I couldn't live without. I was a more serious paddler a few years back and I know how important it can be to your entire being to be out there, powering yourself through the water swiftly and gracefully. It's addictive. And people who don't do it, don't get it. And they have little idea of what the Lake looks like from that perspective - and what might be a rational or irrational fear.

I've spent part of every summer of my life on the Lake. So did my dad, and his dad, and his dad. And oh yeah, his dad too. Same place. 120 years. Call me old-fashioned, but I just don't get the whole performance boat thing. But, obviously, some people do - that's okay. We have to put up with them, and they have to put up with us. Don't let them bully you, tell you you're a hazard or try to drive you away to another lake. And for godsake, don't give them any more fodder for their rude comments about your body. Grow up boys, those comments say a lot about you as people.

Keep on paddling, Evenstar. We'll be watching out for you.

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

But, IMHO, the danger is caused more by Captain Bonehead not paying rnough attention to what's around him, or having had one too many "brewskis", or just plain running too fast for the visibility than by running above 45 mph. Sadly, I've seen Captain B at the helm of everything from PWCs to bowriders to cruisers.

Silver Duck

Island Life has it almost right.... but the real winner IMHO is Silver Duck. The problem is not with "fast boats" or "slow boats". It's with the people that own and drive either. The real problem is Captain Bonehead.

How many times have we all looked at posts here that showed some drunk landing his boat on an island?

How many times have we all seen a boat load of people more intent on having a floating "party" rather than having any concern for the other boaters on the lake?

How many times have we all seen someone towing a tube or skier that is not looking forward.. but instead watching at the "towie'?

I'm not for the speed limit...I've seen many a "Fast Boat" acting perfectly respectful of other boats. Admit it.. we all have. I am very much in favor of VERY STRICT enforcement for the rules that exist. I would also like to see a massive increase in the fines.. including revocations for violaters.

The lake is a wonderful awe inspiring place. We are all very blessed to have a chance to use it. Those who make the choice to abuse the rules that are in place to protect fellow users, and protect the lake need to be thrown off the lake.

Evenstar has as much right to be on the lake as the anyone else.. as long as she follows the rules. Fast Boats have as much right to be on the lake.. as long as they follow the rules.

We don't need to get rid of either slow boats or fast boats... we need to rid the lake of Captain Bonehead!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by DaveR

"...There's no statistics to back up a speed limit..."

True enough: nobody's seen any statistics on breaking Winnipesaukee's speed limit.

Originally Posted by Island Life

"...Call me old-fashioned, but I just don't get the whole performance boat thing.

OK: You're old-fashioned.

Looks like you missed the GFBL with the name "Crowd Pleezah" on its flanks blasting by. Whom were they kidding?

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

"...My other issue is that my windsurfers travel well in excess of 45 mph. I have been clocked on one at 64mph..."

Beware the Winnipesaukee sailor setting the World's Record for windsurfers!

Originally Posted by Second Curve

"...most parts of Winnipesaukee are unfit for small watercraft and this isn't going to change...The good news is that there are many smaller lakes and ponds in the area that are perfect for small watercraft.

Boating-to-excess' answer to Lake Winnipesaukee's smaller boaters is eminent domain?.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Originally Posted by Island Life

"...I have to hand it to you for staying in the fight, Evenstar, but I don't know why you bother. I get what you're saying and completely agree - really fast boats are scary to kayakers because you don't know if there will be enough time for them to react once they finally see you. But you're never going to change the minds of most of these people..."

Evenstar, let the State proceed with the will of the voters—many of whom won't accept the risks imposed by boating's status quo on Lake Winnipesaukee.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Island Life

Call me old-fashioned, but I just don't get the whole performance boat thing. But, obviously, some people do - that's okay. We have to put up with them, and they have to put up with us.

Nor I. My boat has never been over 50 in Winnipesaukee (not enough power) and we typically cruise at 28 to 32 MPH. I find high performance boats a bit too one dimensional for my needs and too expensive for my budget.

I've spent countless hours in human powered boats and have never once feared power boats. The worst I've dealt with is excessive wakes from boats going too slowly. Winnipesaukee is wonderful for boating of all types. There's far more courtesy there than in many other places I've been.

Being a part-time paddler, I cannot imagine why anyone would ever want to paddle in big open areas of lake, even if there's not a single power boat in sight. It's much more fun to meander along the shore in areas where propeller driven craft hit rocks. That said, I'm not slamming people for wanting to paddle out in the open; like high performance boats, I just don't get it.

[Woodsy]

The lake is for EVERYBODY.... But like any resource there are certain times its easier for some to enjoy than others.

I can understand Evenstar's position, when your the small guy, you gotta wonder if the big guys see you bobbing in the water. The reality is, although you have the right to be on the lake whenever and wherever you want, safety and prudence should dictate when/where you go. I have the RIGHT to ride a bike in downtown Boston during rush hour, but it probably isn't the smartest thing to do. Paddling around Govenors Is. mid-week isn't all that bad, although certainly there is more boat traffic mid-week near Govenor's Is. due to the proximity to the Weirs. Go up to Winter Harbor or Moultonborough Bay and there is very little boat traffic! Paddling around Govenor's Is. on a busy summer saturday is absolutely NUTS! Its not because the boats are going too fast... thats pretty much not possible because there are just too many boats.

Even though the 12-16 weekends a year are very busy, statistically speaking the lake is VERY SAFE for ALL! There have been ZIP/ZERO/NADA accidents involving a collision between two watercraft since August 2002 (We all know that accident). There have been ZIP/ZERO/NADA accidents since 2002 that have occured at a speed GREATER THAN 45MPH! In fact most personal injury accidents were the result of falling within the boat. A stronger argument could be made for banning waterskiing and wakeboarding... (there was a wakeboarding fatality) and canoes and kayaks (numerous drownings).

Woodsy

[Lakewinniboater]

Originally Posted by SteveA

but the real winner IMHO is Silver Duck. The problem is not with "fast boats" or "slow boats". It's with the people that own and drive either. The real problem is Captain Bonehead................

We don't need to get rid of either slow boats or fast boats... we need to rid the lake of Captain Bonehead!

ABSOLUTELY!!!! I would be all for more DUI boating laws.... open container while underway and such!

Keep any and all types of people, boats and personal freedoms. Crack down on Education and Alcohol consumption while driving!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fatlazyless]

"Men like to step on the gas, and women like to step on the brakes," according to Woody Harrelson's character, Roy Munson, in the 1996 movie KINGPIN.
Last year, HB62 was passed by the NH house but lost in the senate by four votes and this year it will probably become law due to the november election changes. Five Republican gentlemen senators were beat out by five lady Democratic senator candidates.
All the proponents in the Citizen article above, Sandy Helve from WinnFabs, as well as Senator Katherin Sgambati and Senator Deborah Reynolds are all women.
So, do you think there's any truth to Roy Munson, that broken thumbed former bowlng champion from KINGPIN when he say's "men like to step on the gas, and women like to step on the brakes"?

da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da (theme from 1975 movie JAWS here) da-a-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

"
So, do you think there's any truth to what Roy Munson, that broken thumbed former bowlng champion from KINGPIN when he say's "men like to step on the gas, and women like to step on the brakes"?

You know, I never thought I'd ever see any wisdom coming from that (hilarious) movie, but yeah, it's true for the most part. There are notable exceptions though...

I have little faith in common sense, voters, and law makers and fully expect to see a speed limit on the lake, eventually. Fortunately, it really won't affect most folks, surely not me. I hope those that have fast boats let common sense prevail and continue to adhere to the safe passage law, but safely ignore a new speed law. That said, I would expect widespread contempt for all boating laws if the MP really focuses on enforcing speed limits. Wouldn't that be ironic?

[fatlazyless]

Last year's bill had a boat speeding ticket linked to one's NH Dept Motor Vehicles driving record. So, get one ticket and you lose your insurance, good driver, discount. Get two tickets, and the big companies like Progressive, Allstate, Geico, & State Farm shove you off to an affiliated high risk pool company. All way more expensive than the original $88.(?) ticket itself, and hang around for three years. I know, I found out the hard way.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Beware the Winnipesaukee sailor setting the World's Record for windsurfers!

Have seen two that definitely were traveling faster than 45 mph - they tend to prefer venturing out when the wind is really blowing - not exactly fair-weather sailors.

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Evenstar, let the State proceed with the will of the voters—many of whom won't accept the risks imposed by boating's status quo on Lake Winnipesaukee.

The will of the voters or the will of the political elite?

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I guess the proof is in the picture...

Codeman this is bordering on creepy...with all due respect..stop please...you're turning this "forum" into another kind of "forum" and enough is enough. Thank-You.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Island Life

I have to hand it to you for staying in the fight, Evenstar, but I don't know why you bother. I get what you're saying and completely agree - really fast boats are scary to kayakers because you don't know if there will be enough time for them to react once they finally see you. But you're never going to change the minds of most of these people.

Everyone enjoys the Lake in their own way. Personally, I do enjoy speeding around in my boat once in a while (it's an old beater and probably can't top 45 or so on a good day). When I'm doing that, though, my experience is more about going fast and being outdoors with the wind through my hair; the fact that I'm on the lake is - for me - almost secondary at these times. But the Lake . . . the Lake I soak into my soul every day when I paddle quietly around the island, sit on my dock at night, listen to the loon, fish. These are the experiences I couldn't live without. I was a more serious paddler a few years back and I know how important it can be to your entire being to be out there, powering yourself through the water swiftly and gracefully. It's addictive. And people who don't do it, don't get it. And they have little idea of what the Lake looks like from that perspective - and what might be a rational or irrational fear.

I've spent part of every summer of my life on the Lake. So did my dad, and his dad, and his dad. And oh yeah, his dad too. Same place. 120 years. Call me old-fashioned, but I just don't get the whole performance boat thing. But, obviously, some people do - that's okay. We have to put up with them, and they have to put up with us. Don't let them bully you, tell you you're a hazard or try to drive you away to another lake. And for godsake, don't give them any more fodder for their rude comments about your body. Grow up boys, those comments say a lot about you as people.

Keep on paddling, Evenstar. We'll be watching out for you.

Wow...Bravo! Couldn't have said it better if I tried!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Codeman this is bordering on creepy...with all due respect..stop please...you're turning this "forum" into another kind of "forum" and enough is enough. Thank-You.

Do people have no sense of humor? Obviously not you...

Why don't you comment on the topic at hand instead of harrassing me for making a lighthearted comment in line with a joke that was already running with a few other posters. I am sure you must be able to come up with something better than "Wow...Bravo!"

[jrc]

After a little vacation the speed limit debate is back. Seems like everyone is taking their same old positions. A few of the "speed limit only" posters are beginning to file back in. There may even be a few newbies, who haven't heard all the arguements before.

Does it make sense to hash all this over again? Too bad there isn't a short FAQ or primer to help out the newbies. I can't imagine anyone from the previous debates will be turned around by any of the old arguements.

The big difference this year is that the Democrats control the state goverment. So a different outcome is possible and I hate to say it, but probable.

Luckly, I've never owned a boat that could exceed 45 MPH, I don't even think I've been on a boat capable of that speed. Hopefully, my luck will continue and they'll come after someone else next and not me.

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I am sure you must be able to come up with something better than "Wow...Bravo!"

I thought Codeman was a lecherous old man . . . now I realize he's 9.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

There's a couple of pretty good reasons: The marine patrol doesn't spend much time chasing down kayakers who are breaking laws. And kayakers are not polluting our public waters.

But Fish & Game expends lots of time, money and resources trying to find missing or drowned kayakers and canoeists.... I would love to know what the bill was for the search for the kayaker that drowned during the Alstead flood....

Woodsy

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Island Life

I thought Codeman was a lecherous old man . . . now I realize he's 9.

Your post probably doesn't warrant a response but I will do so anyway. No, I am not a lecherous old man, nor am I 9. I made a joke which did not seem to bother Evenstar anywhere as much as it did unrelated posters. If it did she is welcome to PM me and I will apologize however I will not apologize publicly for injecting a bit of humor into a serious discussion. Judging by other responses some people were able to comprehend a bit of humor and rolled with it. Judging by the responses of Evenstar I think it rolled off just fine, in fact she answered with a bit of humor back at me.

This is a serious matter and should be taken so as it will affect many people, boaters, paddlers, businesses, etc.. But let's keep it real, we all share this wonderful body of water together and need to find a solution to get along. Hopefully we all will have something to smile about at the end of this.

Back to the topic at hand:

As much as I hate the thought of it and am opposed to it I do believe that this time around the Winnfabbs crew may get what they asked for. What will be funny though is a year from the decision and implementation of it the "I told ya so" 's that will be flying when things do not change. There will still be close calls, there will still be BWI, there will still be many unexperienced uneducated boaters roaming the lakes, and there still be overcrowding. Other than a few speeding tickets issued which will not offset the costs involved what will really change?

[DoTheMath]

So, with all the back and fourth of speed limit, no speed limit - kayak vs. "GFBL", blah blah... think about this. Have you ever watched, say a 38' performance boat at 60 mph drive past and a 38' floating condo (cruiser) drive past at 20mph? Can someone describe the difference in the resulting wake? Don't bother - I will! Performance boat, 'bout the same as a ski / wakeboard boat. Cruiser -'bout the same as what hits Oahu's north shore in season - huge!! Wreaks havoc on boats tied to docks, sea walls (or if you prefer lake / retaining walls), and is a sand castle killer for the kids on the beach, my little guy will testify to that! Now, same scenario when you are out and about in, say a kayak - Performance boat wake from a few hundred feet away, 'bout 12" - 15" (inches). Cruiser wake from same distance, 'bout 3' - 4' (feet) plus - better hang on! You have a statistically better chance of getting run down in your canoe or kayak by something OTHER than a performance boat on our lake for several reasons. Mostly for the simple fact it is just a law of averages... there are way more of all the other kinds out there and less of the GFBL type! Additionally, most of those "other" boats are (typically) less expensive, thus more accessible to the masses and thus more of them on the water, case-in-point - lake lice, or PWC's if you will. Cheap to buy, nothing to regulate their operation, lots of them out there! Now, take into consideration the cost to purchase and run a high performance boat - not going to find one of these tied to every other dock. It takes a decent amount of experience and skill just to run these at an "average" speed of say 35 mph, never mind a higher speed - as well as deep pockets! I know LOTS of owners of these types of boats, and all started behind the wheel of a boat when they were young and grew into the big performance boat, none have just bought one to get into boating for the first time. With the responsibility of ownership comes the forethought of "water on the water, beer on the pier" (thanks to PRA mag's Mr. Taylor for that one ;o). So, you will typically not find the "Dude, where are all the beers" guy driving the performance boat - he (or she as I know a couple of them too) has too much to loose, and enjoys the sport way too much to do something stupid - like that. They are into the fun of it and vested heavily, they love what they have the freedom to do and appreciate it very much! They respect the machine and all it can do, and in return are typically VERY conscientious and safe boaters. Are they ALL like this, no - of course not - but every bushel has a bad apple or two, but again - just the law of averages. And to be blunt and honest - lets face it, there is a socioeconomic factor that comes into play here, with expensive toys typically comes higher incomes - so save for the occasional yahoo that hits the lotto, there is a very good chance that whom ever is behind the wheel of that "GFBL" worked hard to get there, and is not out to throw it all away by making some sophomoric mistake. I bet of you did a survey of the "rules of the lake" you'd get 99% of the GFBL guys to nail 'em, and about 50% - if you're lucky - of the rest of the boaters to get about 50% right.

Listen, at the end of the day - I love to go out in a Kayak, they are a blast - but before 9:00 am and NOT in the main areas of the lake, let's be realistic here. I also own a "GFBL" too - and have owned several while on this lake, (been on here since I was 10 mo. old) and consider myself a very alert and responsible boater! Face it, things change, times change we are not watching B&W TV's, driving Pinto's and a 16' boat is no longer "the average". Technology has changed, incomes have grown and people work hard for their money these days, and like to play hard (and smart ;o) - it is up to them what type of boat they want to buy, and it is also up to them to operate it in a responsible manner for the benefit of everyone around them. The lake is here for EVERYONE to enjoy - I don't care of you own a canoe or a 40' GFBL that does (over 45 mph). It is all about boating smarter NOT slower - common courtesy and common sense need to prevail along with boater ed. (and certification, yeah I got mine...) and we'll ALL have a better, safer and happier lake to enjoy with our families!

[DoTheMath]

And we own a house ON the water, pay our taxes and totally respect what is our favorite place to spend our free time - along with our 22 mo. old son, the lake!

[Dave R]

DoTheMath, Interesting post. I agree with most of it. I think kayakers would probably prefer the big wake. Canoeists may have a different POV though. I know I prefer fast boats when I'm in my canoe. I suspect big cruisers will be the next target after GFBLs are outlawed. There are already lakes down south where big cruisers and GFBL boats are not allowed now.

Waiting for the speed limit crowd to jump all over the Littlefield exception... Ought to be entertaining since his actions contrast perfectly with your thoughts and observations of typical GFBL operators. I suspect the "bad apple" statement won't be enough to hold 'em back.

[Dave R]

I spent a weekend on the CT River last Summer. There IS A 45 MPH SPEED LIMIT on that river so you know it's got to be a haven for paddlers... WRONG! Other than the ICW in NJ, it was the most unsafe boating I have ever experienced. Still had a great time though, just had to be vigilant about other boaters who seemed clueless about proper operation.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Other than the ICW in NJ, .

Coming from NJ , I can honestly say you people have no problem at all
And as crazy and insane as it is on the weekends (in Jersey) , our safety record is VERY good.

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Your post probably doesn't warrant a response but I will do so anyway.

Just having a little joke with KonaChick and hoping she's one-tough-New-Hampshire-woman who is not deterred by your rude and "off-topic" response to her post:

Originally Posted by codeman671

Do people have no sense of humor? Obviously not you...

Why don't you comment on the topic at hand instead of harrassing me for making a lighthearted comment in line with a joke that was already running with a few other posters. I am sure you must be able to come up with something better than "Wow...Bravo!"

By the way, KonaChick, thanks.

[secondcurve]

Island Life & Konachic:

I am sorry that each of you were apparently offended by some of the comments in this thread. Codeman, myself and Evenstar were simply enjoying a little good natured banter. I don't think anyone crossed the line, so please don't take our comments too seriously. Remember, we are talking about recreational boating, not bypass surgery! Life is short and I for one don't want to die with a scowl on my face and you ladies shouldn't either.

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Island Life & Konachic:

I am sorry that each of you were apparently offended by some of the comments in this thread. Codeman, myself and Evenstar were simply enjoying a little good natured banter. I don't think anyone crossed the line, so please don't take our comments too seriously. Remember, we are talking about recreational boating, not bypass surgery! Life is short and I for one don't want to die with a scowl on my face and you ladies shouldn't either.

SC: I was not offended by the borish bikini jokes. But notice, Evenstar has not been back.

A more careful read of my last post shows, rather, that I didn't like the way one forum member made fun of another forum member's positive and appreciative comment. It reminded me of something a little kid would do; the only thing missing was the word "duh."

Originally Posted by codeman671

I am sure you must be able to come up with something better than "Wow...Bravo!"

If I were a thin-skinned person, such a judgmental response to one of my posts might keep me from posting again. I was merely lending my support to KC and hoping she's not a thin-skinned person and we'll keep hearing from her.

No scowl on this face.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Island Life

SC: I was not offended by the borish bikini jokes. But notice, Evenstar has not been back.

A more careful read of my last post shows, rather, that I didn't like the way one forum member made fun of another forum member's positive and appreciative comment. It reminded me of something a little kid would do; the only thing missing was the word "duh."




If I were a thin-skinned person, such a judgmental response to one of my posts might keep me from posting again. I was merely lending my support to KC and hoping she's not a thin-skinned person and we'll keep hearing from her.

No scowl on this face.

My response was to two back to back posts by KC, one which was directly slamming me. Can we all just move on? This is getting a bit too melodramatic for my taste. Bravo to SC for trying to put this behind us, can we PLEASE move on now before the real topic gets shut down?

Damn this is going to be a long winter...Any signs of ice out?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by GWC...

"...Have seen two that definitely were traveling faster than 45 mph - they tend to prefer venturing out when the wind is really blowing - not exactly fair-weather sailors..."

Agreed that windsurfers pick the windiest days, but it's odd that you think that windsurfers are traveling as fast as 45 mph. The world's record is 46 knots, and is regularly attempted at one of only two sites: Australia and Port St. Louis, France.

The waves at both locations are minimal due to a low, protective, berm of sand. The waves that slow these craft are kept down, whereas the wind remains the same.

You'll appreciate this French invitation to windsurf in 75 knot hurricane winds : http://www.internationalwindsurfing....29&newsid=1026

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...There have been ZIP/ZERO/NADA accidents since 2002 that have occured at a speed GREATER THAN 45MPH...!

What speed was the 4-ton Formula going that flipped and sank in Tuftonboro waters in 2005?
What speed was the 4-ton Cigarette going that flipped and sank in 2004?
What speed was the 5-ton Fountain going that flipped and sank in Chestnut Cove in 2003?
What speed was the 5-ton boat going that flipped and sank in 1998?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

But Fish & Game expends lots of time, money and resources trying to find missing or drowned kayakers and canoeists.... I would love to know what the bill was for the search for the kayaker that drowned during the Alstead flood....

Woodsy

Who knows...perhaps comparable to the investigation into that boat (that must have been going at pretty high speed) that crashed into I think it was Eagle Island last year? The one driven by teenagers if i recall correctly.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Who knows...perhaps comparable to the investigation into that boat (that must have been going at pretty high speed) that crashed into I think it was Eagle Island last year? The one driven by teenagers if i recall correctly.

How "high" is pretty high ? The boat was a Crownline cruiser whose top speed is about 48 mph. Too high for drunk teenagers but do we want drunk teenagers setting the standard for what the rest of us can and can't do ?

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Who knows...perhaps comparable to the investigation into that boat (that must have been going at pretty high speed) that crashed into I think it was Eagle Island last year? The one driven by teenagers if i recall correctly.

Sorry KC, got to call you on this one. Not much of an investigation in that incident. The primary factor in that accident was alcohol. Speed was not a factor. If you are trying to fan the fire on the speed limit issue, use facts not assumptions or embellishments.

[overlook]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Sorry KC, got to call you on this one. Not much of an investigation in that incident. The primary factor in that accident was alcohol. Speed was not a factor. If you are trying to fan the fire on the speed limit issue, use facts not assumptions or embellishments.

Speed was a factor, he should have been under 6 mph when he crashed.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by overlook

Speed was a factor, he should have been under 6 mph when he crashed.

What he should have been, quite simply, was not drunk.

Seems to me that there already is a law to cover that situation.

Perhaps you overlooked that minor detail...

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Originally Posted by overlook

Speed was a factor, he should have been under 6 mph when he crashed.

Why was he supposed to be at 6 mph? Because he was within 150 ft of shore? That is correct, however he was Supposed to be SOBER, and he wasn't supposed to be out in mom and dads boat with out permission. Try all you want to make that accident about speed. Its not, its about sobriety and lack of respect for all laws. I would like to see a report from MP that attributes the incident to speed. Then I will recant my position.

[KonaChick]

I think the original question was about cost...you know the exact dollar amount spent on the investigation WiersBeachBoater?? Is this information public? I'd love to read up on it....oh i see you haven't seen a report about the incident as you stated you'd like to see one that attributes the accident to speed. I guess we are back where we started then..perhaps the investigation into the drowing in Alstead could equal this one.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

What speed was the 4-ton Formula going that flipped and sank in Tuftonboro waters in 2005?
What speed was the 4-ton Cigarette going that flipped and sank in 2004?
What speed was the 5-ton Fountain going that flipped and sank in Chestnut Cove in 2003?
What speed was the 5-ton boat going that flipped and sank in 1998?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

Why, I don't know, but I'm sure you will tell us, even if you don't know.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by codeman671

My response was to two back to back posts by KC, one which was directly slamming me. Can we all just move on? This is getting a bit too melodramatic for my taste. Bravo to SC for trying to put this behind us, can we PLEASE move on now before the real topic gets shut down?

Damn this is going to be a long winter...Any signs of ice out?

He's like the energizer bunny...he goes on and on and on and on and on

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

do we want drunk teenagers setting the standard for what the rest of us can and can't do ?

They would probably be about as equally unqualified to decide what's safe on the lake, and what's not, as the sponsors of the latest speed limit bill (is it a bill yet?)

[WeirsBeachBoater]

KC, you are missing my point. Pro speed limit people bring out these stories about terror, and fear. Well I hate to break it to everyone. The public has caught on. The sky is not falling! There are no hard facts to prove that speed is directly related to issues on the lakes. The only facts are that boat registrations are up and accidents are down. The education is working.

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Agreed that windsurfers pick the windiest days, but it's odd that you think that windsurfers are traveling as fast as 45 mph. The world's record is 46 knots, and is regularly attempted at one of only two sites: Australia and Port St. Louis, France.

The waves at both locations are minimal due to a low, protective, berm of sand. The waves that slow these craft are kept down, whereas the wind remains the same.

You'll appreciate this French invitation to windsurf in 75 knot hurricane winds : http://www.internationalwindsurfing....29&newsid=1026

World Record runs are your average run over 500 meters. There are times of speeds WELL in excess of record speeds and then well below and the average is...... My run was a instantanious burst radared by a State Policeman in very similiar contitions to what you listed behind the Seabrook Power Plant

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

What speed was the 4-ton Formula going that flipped and sank in Tuftonboro waters in 2005?
What speed was the 4-ton Cigarette going that flipped and sank in 2004?
What speed was the 5-ton Fountain going that flipped and sank in Chestnut Cove in 2003?
What speed was the 5-ton boat going that flipped and sank in 1998?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

I can not speek for the other accidents but I am very familiar with the Cigarette accident as a friend of mine purchased that boat after it rolled over. The boat was traveling WELL below 45 miles per hour. The operator made a mistake while driving. The boat had very little damage to it proving this. The boat weights 7200 pounds.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

KC, you are missing my point. Pro speed limit people bring out these stories about terror, and fear. Well I hate to break it to everyone. The public has caught on. The sky is not falling! There are no hard facts to prove that speed is directly related to issues on the lakes. The only facts are that boat registrations are up and accidents are down. The education is working.

Silly me...I thought we were talking about dollars and sense.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by ITD

Why, I don't know, but I'm sure you will tell us, even if you don't know.

Nobody truly knows at what speeds those "flipped-and-sank" accidents occurred. NHRBA posted that they had acquired the NH Marine Patrol's 2002-2006 Accident Reports—wouldn't it be edifying to this discussion to disclose the factual speeds here?

http://wolfeboro.net/option,com_joom...limitstart,60/

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

"...I can not speek for the other accidents but I am very familiar with the Cigarette accident as a friend of mine purchased that boat after it rolled over. The boat was traveling WELL below 45 miles per hour. The operator made a mistake while driving..."

Sorry, Jon, but an anecdote is not a FACT.

(I'd very much like to read, "it rolled over" in an official MP report, too!)

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

World Record runs are your average run over 500 meters. There are times of speeds WELL in excess of record speeds and then well below and the average is...... My run was a instantanious burst radared by a State Policeman in very similiar contitions to what you listed behind the Seabrook Power Plant.

Radar? Reading a windsurfer?

Jon, are you speaking to the same effectiveness of radar over water as this post?

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...&postcount=101

We ran a radar trap for a Poker run in upstate NY. They were unable to get a read off ANY of our boats. That included one run that they asked us to go with in 30 feet of their boat. The radar was run by a certified officer and he could not make it work. So how do you measure speed on the water?

Jon

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

I can not speek for the other accidents but I am very familiar with the Cigarette accident as a friend of mine purchased that boat after it rolled over. The boat was traveling WELL below 45 miles per hour. The operator made a mistake while driving. The boat had very little damage to it proving this. The boat weights 7200 pounds.

I see both sides of the speed limit issue, which is why I have stayed quiet for the most part.... But um you are judging speed by the amount of damage.... that is not a fair assumption.... just because the boat didn't sustain what you would call major damage, doesn't mean it wasn't going fast....watch offshore racing sometime, I have seen some boats go through some pretty wild accidents and be ok on the other end. Well others have sank when you didn't see anything wrong........

There are two sides to this, and people have choosen their sides, and we will never all agree.... so lets admit to that....

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Silly me...I thought we were talking about dollars and sense.

True enough, the topic was cost and then did revert back to the OP. But based on last year, are we now going to start discussing the cost of swimming in the lake ?

[Weirs guy]

I see a lot of people posting about various accidents around the lake and wondering if they were caused by excessive speed, even going so far as to inferring that a speed limit could have prevented them.

I assume we will need to buy radar guns and train the MP on how to use them? Since I've seen radar guns clock pine tree's at 7 MPH (the tree later failed a field sobriety test as well), and anyone who's ever fought a speeding ticket knows that the police will admit they are inaccurate, then your 45 MPH speed limit becomes more like a 50 - 55 MPH enforceable limit. Is there a study or other FACTUAL information that shows a 50 - 55 MPH limit on Winni will prevent accidents?

Before my hard earned tax dollars are spent on enforcing a speed limit, wouldn't it make sense to determine if a speed limit will prevent accidents?

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Is there a study or other FACTUAL information that shows a 50 - 55 MPH limit on Winni will prevent accidents?

My guess would be, that is pocket-change stuff to be overlooked. Doubling or tripling your numbers would put speeds into some awful serious territory.

[Woodsy]

The debate rages on!! Oh joy.....

WinnFabs picked 45MPH because thats what they have for a speed limit in MA and over on Lake George NY. There isn't ANY statistical data to support that 45 is a good number, its just an arbitrary number. One also has to remember that Lake George is a State park and you have to pay a fee to boat there. Niether Lake George nor MA has a 150' Safe Passage Rule... I can LEGALLY go by you 1 foot from your gunwale as long as I don't exceed 45MPH. Talk about not safe for canoeist & kayakers!!! Evenstar care to chime in on this??

FACTS we need to remember...

1. Boating registrations are UP while the accident rate is down! Safe Boater Education is WORKING!

2. There have been less than 180 reportable boating accidents that resulted in personal injury between 2002 and 2006. The primary source of these personal injuries is a result of individuals being pulled behind a vessel, such as water skis, wakeboards and/or tubes along with PWC’s. The State of New Hampshire has not had a boating fatality as the result of a collision in the last four years!!

3. NH has an average of 44 boating accidents that result in personal injury every year. Not too bad considering the 100,000+ boats we have registered in the state and god only knows how many day trippers from out-of-state!

Speed is not the issue here, and really it never was. The issues here are reckless operation or ignorance of the 150' Safe Passage Rule, and noise. Both problems we already have laws on the books for!

Woodsy

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Before my hard earned tax dollars are spent on enforcing a speed limit, wouldn't it make sense to determine if a speed limit will prevent accidents?

This argument didn't work last year, can't imagine it will this year either. The State Senate voted down HB162 because it was "unenforceable", if memory serves, not because it was a bad idea.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

My guess would be, that is pocket-change stuff to be overlooked. Doubling or tripling your numbers would put speeds into some awful serious territory.

If one was going double the limit, there'd be no point stopping. The MP has no boats that can catch a boat that fast, the roostertail will obscure the name on the transom, and there's no way anyone's gonna be able to read 3" high bow numbers at that speed. Custom paint, like a big "look at me" name on the side of the boat, might be a problem though...

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by codeman671

.

Let's put a registration law in place for all kayaks, canoes, etc to help fund this resource sucking monster which you are trying to create. I am sure the complaints will fly then... I have always found it ridiculous that power boaters end up footing the bill for all while the paddlers get a free ride.

Gosh not only people in canoes etc. but what about people who use our roads to bicycles or even tricycles on no reason they should get off free either. I think you should contact your rep. and demand they introduce a bill to stop this flagrant abuse. Maybe a smaller fee for a canoe since the only use one paddle but a kayaker with the double paddle should pay more!!! We must stop this type of abuse!

I think someone needs to chill.
>>
Oh…………I forgot to mention.
>>
The speed limit is coming!!! Hip Hip Hoooooraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy.
>>

[Chris Craft]

APS: To get a read with my windsurfer I had to strap TWO licence plates to my boddy to make it work. Prior to that we were getting VERY erratic readings. So should I brace for a licence plate bracket requirement on my boat now

APS I think that you and I will have to agree that we will not see the same side of this issue. While I love a good debate I know that the owner of the site does not want these wars to go on so I am going to respectuflly bow out of any debate with you. It has been fun

[Woodsy]

If the speed limit comes, and nothing changes, then what?? What will the new complaint be?? Call the MP, that boat was going faster than 45MPH!

We will still have congested areas, we will still have 150' violations, we will still have noisy boats, we will still have reckless operators... we can just add one more complaint to the list, we will still have speeding boats...

It is truly amazing to me the complete willingness of some to take away somebody's civil liberty just because you don't like them.

Woodsy

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by JDeere

Gosh not only people in canoes etc. but what about people who use our roads to bicycles or even tricycles on no reason they should get off free either. I think you should contact your rep. and demand they introduce a bill to stop this flagrant abuse. Maybe a smaller fee for a canoe since the only use one paddle but a kayaker with the double paddle should pay more!!! We must stop this type of abuse!

I think someone needs to chill.

Don't forget all those darn pedestrians. Sometimes I actually have to stop my big, fast moving car to let them cross the road. What hazards they are!