Marine Patrol

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

The stop was in 1992.

So, all during the 1991 season and part way into the 1992 season, you never noticed a small sailboat, even a Sunfish, that was displaying a validation decal? OK, maybe you don't look at other boats.

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Unpowered boats that were legally-unregistered in 1991 and legally without registration numbers, were among the least likely to ever receive the boating guide.

Boating guides aren't mailed out or automatically given with registrations, but are usually readily available in most marinas and boating supply stores in addition to registration desks. Certainly MP headquarters would have them available. Boating guides are a good thing to review every year, just to see if there have been any changes, plus they are tools to review your present knowledge. Just be aware that they are printed for informative purposes, but are not law books. Sometimes mistakes are made in printing and not discovered until later. Serious errors are usually covered by a loose page provided with the guides. Any questions about any boating law should be directed to an officer or headquarters. If you wanted a boating guide, there were plenty around.

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Wel-l-l-l-l-l...there were two MP questions infringing on 5th Amendment rights on that 1992 stop. Those were understandable errors that were easily made with the requirements of that "new" (new in 1991) RSA 270 E:4 law. (And I couldn't/didn't comply anyway).

What might those two questions have been? As far as compliance, I would imagine that you have complied by now.

If I may paraphrase a note at the bottom of Skip's posts:

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

[Phantom]

My God --- this is a lesson in how to beat a thread to death!!

Move on people, there's a world out there ............

[ApS]

Originally Posted by NightWing

"...What might those two questions have been?"

1) "Do you have a tape measure?"
2) "What is your boat's length?"

[John A. Birdsall]

In either 2004 or 2005 The police boat came to me while I was learning to sail my boat and asked how long was my boat. 11'9" I am glad that he did not want to measure it. I had a hard time getting it going in the first place and stopping it without brakes wasn't happening. Enroute to sure it turtled on me and I would never go out in it again. In 2005 I brought it home and sold it for what I paid for it in 2006.

[Boat_captain]

The Marine Patrol do a great job with the resources they have.
I really think they should be supplied with more resources to handle the job. I cannot fault them because I have the utmost respect for them.

I do think however the state should give them more funding and raise fines for boat violations.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by John A. Birdsall

"...In either 2004 or 2005 The police boat came to me while I was learning to sail my boat and asked how long was my boat. 11'9" I am glad that he did not want to measure it..."

Me too, on my 20-footer.

But the MP asked how long your boat was, and they asked me the very same question. If you'd answered 12-feet truthfully (and therefore operating illegally), wouldn't the MPs be compelling you into self-incrimination?

In my case, the MPs also asked me if I had a tape measure on board—still another case for the Fifth Amendment, IMHO. (That is, providing I'd produced a tape measure that they use to establish my boat's true length.)

Not a problem to produce personal identification upon MP request, but a request that compells you into a ticket?

NightWing (heck, everybody) is silent on this.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Me too, on my 20-footer.

But the MP asked how long your boat was, and they asked me the very same question. If you'd answered 12-feet truthfully (and therefore operating illegally), wouldn't the MPs be compelling you into self-incrimination?

In my case, the MPs also asked me if I had a tape measure on board—still another case for the Fifth Amendment, IMHO. (That is, providing I'd produced a tape measure that they use to establish my boat's true length.)

Not a problem to produce personal identification upon MP request, but a request that compells you into a ticket?

NightWing (heck, everybody) is silent on this.

Come on, you are not compelled to answer. When a trooper pulls you over in your car and says "do you know how fast you were going" or "do you know why I pulled you over" you don't have to say "90" or "because I ran the stop sign". You can always politely decline to answer. Although, I would not suggest lying. I guess common sense really isn't all that common.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Me too, on my 20-footer.

But the MP asked how long your boat was, and they asked me the very same question. If you'd answered 12-feet truthfully (and therefore operating illegally), wouldn't the MPs be compelling you into self-incrimination?

In my case, the MPs also asked me if I had a tape measure on board—still another case for the Fifth Amendment, IMHO. (That is, providing I'd produced a tape measure that they use to establish my boat's true length.)

Not a problem to produce personal identification upon MP request, but a request that compells you into a ticket?

NightWing (heck, everybody) is silent on this.

Many officers, whether on land or on the water, may already know the answers to the questions before they ask you. Your response may agree or conflict with what the officer knows to be true. The street cop might ask you if you knew why he stopped you, or he may ask you if you knew how fast you were going. Playing dumb here can work against you. If you didn't know how fast you were going, then you weren't paying attention to your instruments. If you weren't watching the dash, you might not have been watching the road and the speed limit signs. Your responsibility on both counts.

Not knowing the length of your boat can be a clue that you don't know the required safety equipment, some of which changes as the boat length increases. It is in your best interest to know your equipment and what the legal requirements are for both the operator and the vessel.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by NightWing

Many officers, whether on land or on the water, may already know the answers to the questions before they ask you. Your response may agree or conflict with what the officer knows to be true. The street cop might ask you if you knew why he stopped you, or he may ask you if you knew how fast you were going. Playing dumb here can work against you. If you didn't know how fast you were going, then you weren't paying attention to your instruments. If you weren't watching the dash, you might not have been watching the road and the speed limit signs. Your responsibility on both counts.

Not knowing the length of your boat can be a clue that you don't know the required safety equipment, some of which changes as the boat length increases. It is in your best interest to know your equipment and what the legal requirements are for both the operator and the vessel.

Well of course they already know.

All I'm saying is that simply asking you if you broke the law is not a violation of your rights. Specifically, your rights against self-incrimination, mentioned in the Fifth amendment, does not prevent an officer from asking you to self-incriminate. It prevents them from forcing you to.

When approached by police, I try to be polite and honest. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Phantom]

Since when do you HAVE to produce identification when asked by MP?? To my knowledge all you are required to produce is a valid registration for the craft --- quite different from a "driver liscence" or other ID. The craft may or may not be registered in "your" name.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Since when do you HAVE to produce identification when asked by MP?? To my knowledge all you are required to produce is a valid registration for the craft --- quite different from a "driver liscence" or other ID. The craft may or may not be registered in "your" name.

You might want to read this:

Section 270:12-b
270:12-b Disobeying an Officer. –
I. No person, while operating or otherwise in charge of a vessel, raft, or float of any kind, type, or character or an amphibian or pontoon aircraft under step speed shall:
(a) Knowingly refuse, when requested by a peace officer or agent of the director, to give his name, address, and date of birth, and the name and address of the owner of the vessel, raft, float or amphibian or pontoon aircraft of any kind, type, or character;
(b) Knowingly refuse, on demand of a peace officer or agent of the director, to sign his name in the presence of such officer or agent;
(c) Knowingly refuse, on demand of a peace officer or agent of the director, to produce some means of positive identification such as a driver's license, passport, or other document, or to verify his identity by some other means so that the identity of the operator or person otherwise in charge of a vessel can be determined with reasonable certainty by such peace officer or agent of the director;
(d) Knowingly neglect to stop when signaled to stop by any peace officer or agent of the director, who is in uniform or who displays his badge conspicuously on the outside of his outer coat or garment, or who signals such person to stop by means of any authorized audible or visual emergency warning signals; or otherwise willfully attempt to elude pursuit by a peace officer or agent of the director by increasing speed, extinguishing lights while still in motion, or abandoning a vessel while being pursued;
(e) Knowingly refuse, when requested by a peace officer or agent of the director, to:
(1) direct said amphibian or pontoon aircraft, vessel, raft, or float to shore or to any dock, wharf, or mooring designated by said officer or agent;
(2) follow any vessel operated or controlled by any peace officer or agent of the director to any point on shore, or any wharf or mooring designated by said officer or agent; or
(3) allow said officer or agent to direct or tow said boat, raft, or float to any point on shore or to any dock, wharf, or mooring.
II. Any person who fails to comply with the requirements of this section or provides a false name, address, or date of birth shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

Source. 1987, 317:1, eff. July 24, 1987.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Since when do you HAVE to produce identification when asked by MP?? To my knowledge all you are required to produce is a valid registration for the craft --- quite different from a "driver liscence" or other ID. The craft may or may not be registered in "your" name.

You may want to read this. Don't worry though, in time there'll be no need for any law officer to ask you for your name, the master federal computer will have the ability to forward your tracking data directly to the officer. Remember, keep your tinfoil hat on tightly, don't look up and keep your cellphone off. Wait, that last part doesn't work anymore ....

ps - If you're wondering if NH is a "stop and identify" state, it is, per RSA 594.2.

[Phantom]

Nice to Know Nightwing --

BUT

In the few stops that I have had through the years (ohhh ya, I've actually been victum to the "Blue" light a few times) --- I have always told the MP that I do not have my liscence with me i.e bathing suit on----- and have NEVER been hassled for it !!

No disrespect, I see your point of Law however

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Nice to Know Nightwing --

BUT

In the few stops that I have had through the years (ohhh ya, I've actually been victum to the "Blue" light a few times) --- I have always told the MP that I do not have my liscence with me i.e bathing suit on----- and have NEVER been hassled for it !!

No disrespect, I see your point of Law however

That isn't a problem, really. The officer shouldn't hassle you for it. Remember, a Driver's License is not required to operate a boat, although a Boating Education Certificate is required, depending on your age group. Having one or both of these documents available allows the officer to complete his paperwork a little faster, therefore getting you on your way a little sooner. Remember, paperwork is done for every stop.

You must be able and willing to identify yourself; name, address and date of birth. A Driver's license is a quick and easy way to accomplish that. The Boating Ed Certificate will also identify you.

Lacking either, (and lack of the BE Cert, if required by your age group, will likely get you a ticket) you would be required to sign your name on a form in front of the officer. That is a testimonial that you are who you say you are.

[Boat_captain]

Remember the Marine Patrol has limited resources and funds.
They deserve every ounce of respect for what they do.
Our state does not fund or pay them enough in my book.

Boating Education offered by the Marine Patrol is a great way of obtaining some of the basics for safe navigation but I would enhance that education by doing some Coast Guard courses or finding courses offered by the United States Power Squadrons.

Remember regardless of what anyone thinks a simple stop for inspection by the Marine Patrol may save your life.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Boat_captain

Remember regardless of what anyone thinks a simple stop for inspection by the Marine Patrol may save your life.

MP does not stop "for inspection", but inspects all they stop.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Boat_captain

Remember the Marine Patrol has limited resources and funds.
They deserve every ounce of respect for what they do.
Our state does not fund or pay them enough in my book.

Boating Education offered by the Marine Patrol is a great way of obtaining some of the basics for safe navigation but I would enhance that education by doing some Coast Guard courses or finding courses offered by the United States Power Squadrons.

Remember regardless of what anyone thinks a simple stop for inspection by the Marine Patrol may save your life.

The MP can no longer stop you for a "Safety Inspection" like they used to. The NH Supreme Court ruled that they needed "Probable Cause" to stop you. The same standard that applies to police officers statewide.

Woodsy

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The MP can no longer stop you for a "Safety Inspection" like they used to. The NH Supreme Court ruled that they needed "Probable Cause" to stop you. The same standard that applies to police officers statewide.

Woodsy

Actually what a law enforcement officer needs to stop & temporarily detain is known in the trade as articulable suspicion. Probable cause, a much higher standard, is what an LEO needs to effect an arrest or request a warrant.

To some it may appear to be a play on words, but when it comes to your constitutional rights the difference between the two standards is immeasurable!

What the courts maintain is that an officer must have articulable suspicion that an offense has occured in order to stop and temporarily detain you. After you have been detained (or otherwise investigated) using the articulable suspicion standard, the officer may develop more facts & circumstances that lead him to the probable cause necessary to effect a warrant or arrest.

That is why the examples given in an earlier post of an MP asking you "what length is your boat" or "do you have a tape measure" are not examples of the borderline infringement of your fifth ammendment rights. There are a number of US Supreme Court and lower court opinions that have examined these very same examples and found the asking of such questions during a articulable suspicion or "Terry" type stop do not violate the offender's right's.

Hope this clears it up a little....needless to say you are always walking a very thin (blue) line when dealing with the public as a law enforcement official!

Merry Christmas!

Skip

[Woodsy]

Thanks for the clarification Skip!! Gotta love having a LEO on the website!

Happy Holidays!

Woodsy

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Skip

"...That is why the examples given in an earlier post of an MP asking you "what length is your boat" or "do you have a tape measure" are not examples of the borderline infringement of your fifth ammendment rights. Skip

I don't mind getting a ticket if the MPs measure my boat length to find that it failed some registration requirement; however, they'd better have used a state-provided, ostensibly-calibrated, tape measure.

When the MPs take my tape measure, and use it to incriminate my boat,
I'd be marching that one by a judge.

(OK, not really—I'd just pay up—but there's this nagging amendment here).

[John A. Birdsall]

oops the tape fell overboard.