How safe is downtown Laconia?

[Bluesman]

Thinking of moving closer to downtown Laconia. I pulled up the interactive crime map for the area and it looks pretty bad. I also watched a television piece from last year on the homeless problem. They say there are as many as 400 homeless in Laconia.

Any thoughts about the safety of kids or women walking downtown during the day or at night?

[Biggd]

I think you've answered your own question.

[SAMIAM]

To my knowledge there have been no problems with random crime against strangers.
Most of the crimes involve people known to each other. Drug deals mostly, some domestic disputes and violence mostly among substance abusers.
I wouldn't be worried about being in Laconia any time of night or day.

[John Mercier]

Also, there is no real place for them to stay downtown.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Also, there is no real place for them to stay downtown.

John, currently they are camping next to city hall! The city actually had a port a potty placed outside to keep them from using the bathrooms inside. You can thank the current Mayor for this. Also, with the buses now running between Concord and Laconia we may all be in for a advantageous summer


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[Major]

I guess it depends on "how close" to downtown you are talking. I go downtown a lot, and like everyone else, see homeless people everywhere. You mostly encounter them when you have to walk the sidewalks or go into pharmacies (CVS, Walgreens and Rite-Aid). I've had only a few negative encounters, but never really felt in danger.

My wife however has had several concerning encounters. One in which she was followed out of a pharmacy. Another on the WOW trail.

If you read posts from some of the Laconia-related groups on Facebook, there is an escalating crime problem in Laconia. Eventually, it will effect all of us unless something is done about it. As noted in a prior post, there are a LOT of homeless people congregating around City Hall! Definitely keep your car locked if you park in the large parking lot. They eyeball the cars.

I live in SD/LB, and even there we have homeless people passing through.

If I had to do it over again, I would have built our home in Gilford or Meredith.

[WinnisquamZ]

FYI, since camping on public property is legal in Laconia I would ask each and everyone of you to invite your friends. Skip the campsite and hotels for bike week just grab some lawn at the library or a parking space downtown. If the city won’t move the “homeless” along they have no legal grounds to remove you.


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[BroadHopper]

Walked downtown a lot! The Riverwalk is nice as well as the WOW trail and Belmont rail trail. The police are pretty much present.

I live in the Wildwood Village. Walk almost daily to town and back. Sometimes to Lakeport. I moved from Gilford when my taxes skyrocketed. No regrets.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

FYI, since camping on public property is legal in Laconia I would ask each and everyone of you to invite your friends. Skip the campsite and hotels for bike week just grab some lawn at the library or a parking space downtown. If the city won’t move the “homeless” along they have no legal grounds to remove you.


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Take a ride down Hounsell Ave and check out the encampment in the woods between there and the bypass. It’s getting bigger all the time. Pallets, tarps, tents , even a pickup truck in the woods that’s been there all winter. I was at the Gilford Shaws a couple of months ago and watched 2 homeless people sawing the bike locks of two bikes parked outside. We called the Gilford police and waited in the parking lot for 20 minutes but they never showed. We followed the two on the bikes all the way to the encampment. I would never go to the dog park down that way

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Walked downtown a lot! The Riverwalk is nice as well as the WOW trail and Belmont rail trail. The police are pretty much present.

I live in the Wildwood Village. Walk almost daily to town and back. Sometimes to Lakeport. I moved from Gilford when my taxes skyrocketed. No regrets.

Where there is a lot of public, the PD tends to be present.
Belmont had a fear that it would congregate toward us because of the BRATT...
But it seem the BRATT being used all year round rather than in just a few winter weeks has created enough public oversight to keep the PD informed of issues.

[gravy boat]

Sadly there is no “safe” public place anywhere in the US any longer - except where there are no people/drugs. Good luck finding that utopia.

Laconia is safer than San Fran or LA or Chicago or NYC. Safer than Manchester.

But there are drug dealers, thieves and sexual predators here as with everywhere - just not as many as in bigger cities.

[John Mercier]

We had all that when I was a child.

[retired]

NH is a constitutional carry state. You have the right to protect yourself.

[John Mercier]

Try shooting an unarmed person bugging you for change... and you won't be homeless.

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Try shooting an unarmed person bugging you for change... and you won't be homeless.

I'm sorry, but there is something unacceptable to me about begging strangers for money in America: it should NOT be allowed.

Nor should sleeping in tents and tarps on sidewalks and other public places.

The homeless have failed: rather than expose us to their blight the government should force them to change into better, more productive citizens.

Set up a new CCC / WPA for them; induce the young ones, the druggies looking for purpose, to join the military, Peace Corps, or analogous organizations.

Time to reevaluate the situation before it sinks us all.

[WinnisquamZ]

If you feel threatened. You are always welcome to protect yourself and loved ones. Never hesitate


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[Major]

I don't know about anyone else, but I do not want to live in a world where we have to tolerate being accosted on the street or in public. I don't want to have to carry a firearm just to feel safe. Plus, this only works in NH where Constitutional carry is legal. It doesn't work everywhere.

What we are seeing is a degradation of societal norms and rules. Movements like defund the police and open borders have not resulted in making us safer but instead have made us decidedly unsafe. And heaven forbid you are armed and try defending yourself with your weapon, you most likely will end up on the wrong side of the law. And you don't even have to use a weapon - ask Chauvin and Penny. It's no wonder why no one wants to be a cop! Like we saw in Gilford, cops just doing their job had to be investigated and then exonerated much to the chagrin of a vocal minority.

The guardrails that make society safe and work are being systematically removed. We have only ourselves to blame.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Major

I don't know about anyone else, but I do not want to live in a world where we have to tolerate being accosted on the street or in public. I don't want to have to carry a firearm just to feel safe. Plus, this only works in NH where Constitutional carry is legal. It doesn't work everywhere.

What we are seeing is a degradation of societal norms and rules. Movements like defund the police and open borders have not resulted in making us safer but instead have made us decidedly unsafe. And heaven forbid you are armed and try defending yourself with your weapon, you most likely will end up on the wrong side of the law. And you don't even have to use a weapon - ask Chauvin and Penny. It's no wonder why no one wants to be a cop! Like we saw in Gilford, cops just doing their job had to be investigated and then exonerated much to the chagrin of a vocal minority.

The guardrails that make society safe and work are being systematically removed. We have only ourselves to blame.

Our society has always been this way, it's just that we are more exposed to information overload now. Of course, population growth has contributed to the growing problems.
Years ago, we only got our news from somewhat respected news outlets that were held accountable for misinformation but there were always things that happened that we didn't hear about until years later.
Today we are bombarded with misinformation all day every day, fake pictures, and articles written by anyone and everyone just to get clicks on a website. It's only going to get worse with the proliferation of AI.
If you don't think our enemies are contributing to this misinformation, you are living under a rock.

[fatlazyless]

Personal safety was the last thing on my mind, today Friday March 15, when I stopped into the Salvation Army thrift store on New Salem St in Laconia.

Free red grapefruit courtesy the nearby Walmart super center in Laconia/Gilford, regularly sold for $1.18-each were totally free at the Salvation Army thrift store with two cases with about 75-grapefruits available to anyone. For some unknown reason, Walmart had too many grapefruit, or something?

Very high quality, very red juicy grapefruit from Florida, and a very low price ....... free! ...... my type of a price!

Probably, more of these free grapefruits will still be available tomorrow, Saturday morning, since there did not seem to be much demand for free grapefruits at the time. ...... ...... excellent quality Florida red grapefruit.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

I'm sorry, but there is something unacceptable to me about begging strangers for money in America: it should NOT be allowed.

Nor should sleeping in tents and tarps on sidewalks and other public places.

The homeless have failed: rather than expose us to their blight the government should force them to change into better, more productive citizens.

Set up a new CCC / WPA for them; induce the young ones, the druggies looking for purpose, to join the military, Peace Corps, or analogous organizations.

Time to reevaluate the situation before it sinks us all.

We induced the situation.

You don't become an alcoholic if you have never consumed alcohol.
You don't mind being temporarily housed in a non-smoking facility, if you have never smoked.
You have less chance of becoming homeless if you have built an emergency fund cushion and you don't live beyond your means.

But our society doesn't value those things they way we should.

In any case, we can't shoot them for just being annoying.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Major

I don't know about anyone else, but I do not want to live in a world where we have to tolerate being accosted on the street or in public. I don't want to have to carry a firearm just to feel safe. Plus, this only works in NH where Constitutional carry is legal. It doesn't work everywhere.

What we are seeing is a degradation of societal norms and rules. Movements like defund the police and open borders have not resulted in making us safer but instead have made us decidedly unsafe. And heaven forbid you are armed and try defending yourself with your weapon, you most likely will end up on the wrong side of the law. And you don't even have to use a weapon - ask Chauvin and Penny. It's no wonder why no one wants to be a cop! Like we saw in Gilford, cops just doing their job had to be investigated and then exonerated much to the chagrin of a vocal minority.

The guardrails that make society safe and work are being systematically removed. We have only ourselves to blame.

You mean shooting Miscah Fay? Whenever an officer uses his service weapon there is an investigation.
And it isn't that younger people do not wish to join the police force... they just want to earn the most they can like anyone else.

Canfield will tell you that violent crime is actually very low in Laconia and the surrounding areas. But you could be injured or killed unintentionally by those that have homes and jobs, due to errant behavior.
The homeless is more of a risk to hygiene and property.

[LoveLakeLife]

A related problem is the wholesale adoption by the populace of words that sounded ridiculous the first time you heard them, like pre-owned and homeless. Why are people identified by something they don’t have? By that construct, you can call me jetless. Call them what they were called for centuries before the 1970s, beggars and bums. Bring back stigma and shame, they can be motivating.


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[John Mercier]

Because even those with housing can be beggars and bums.

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Try shooting an unarmed person bugging you for change... and you won't be homeless.

I don't think he is suggesting that he would shoot someone for asking for change...that is ridiculous. Anyone who carries has, or should have been trained that you would never even display a weapon unless a life or risk of serious injury were involved.

[John Mercier]

They haven't had any violence.
Some theft, but no violent crimes to date.
Chief Canfield laid that out.

We see more violence around drinking establishments and domestic situations rather than anything else.

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I don't think he is suggesting that he would shoot someone for asking for change...that is ridiculous. Anyone who carries has, or should have been trained that you would never even display a weapon unless a life or risk of serious injury were involved.

Yes. That is a cardinal rule. Chances are, anyone that EDC (every day carries) and is a SANE person, will never have drawn his/her weapon in their lifetime. As they say. “It’s better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it”
In addition, in most cases, you would never know whom, around you, is carrying…as it should be.
Now, back to the local BUM problem.��

[WinnisquamZ]

You are wrong. If I remember correctly someone did get their head smashed in downtown last year. Or are you not including that because it was “homeless on homeless” crime.


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[The Real BigGuy]

I can’t believe the callousness of this discussion of those less fortunate than yourselves! This is the problem with our society in the US. Be more concerned about how much money you can make & things that you can buy (so you can feel you’re better than your neighbor) then about the problems others have.



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[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

I can’t believe the callousness of this discussion of those less fortunate than yourselves! This is the problem with our society in the US. Be more concerned about how much money you can make & things that you can buy (so you can feel you’re better than your neighbor) then about the problems others have.



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“Problems they have”. Mental illness and drug addiction. Two of the major causes of homelessness. Most do have homes to go back to if they commit to sobriety and medication. They refuse and end up on the streets.
Laconia makes it extremely comfortable to be homeless. Just don’t see anything changing to remove the comfort. Inaction by the city council and residents staying silent only makes the problem grow.
Yes, by law little can be done. But, they can be asked to move along. Not allow camping on public property


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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

You are wrong. If I remember correctly someone did get their head smashed in downtown last year. Or are you not including that because it was “homeless on homeless” crime.


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Generally those fall under domestic disputes... even though the housing isn't traditional.

The last non-related assault that I could find for Laconia was 2018.
It was technically a mugging.

[LoveLakeLife]

They weren’t addicted the first time they took drugs.


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[John Mercier]

Probably not the first time they smoked or drank a drop of alcohol; but a pattern gets set.

And if they aren't careful, a generational pattern sets in.

For some, it probably doesn't even start out that way... they enter the world unprepared and a major financial catastrophe hits that they never recover from.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

For some, it probably doesn't even start out that way... they enter the world unprepared and a major financial catastrophe hits that they never recover from.

Financial catastrophe?
How many ads on TV saying we'll cut your debt in half, you won't owe the IRS, and of course, Joe will cancel your student loans. Cancel. Not pay.
Financial catastrophe may be self-induced because we don't teach financial self control.

[WinnisquamZ]

Many of you actually believe the current homeless crisis here in Laconia is due to a financial catastrophe.


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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

Financial catastrophe?
How many ads on TV saying we'll cut your debt in half, you won't owe the IRS, and of course, Joe will cancel your student loans. Cancel. Not pay.
Financial catastrophe may be self-induced because we don't teach financial self control.

I was thinking more about the young person that has a job, and a vehicle... but no real savings.

Our children have always had me to fall back onto regardless on education, housing, or medical situations. But not everyone has that.
Those individuals when provided temporary help can overcome the obstacle... but without it may drift.

I know when I was first starting out, and things were a bit easier back then, I had to ride a motorcycle for several years while I went to school and needed transportation to get to better employment opportunities during my down time. Had I been in an accident, though insurance on the motorcycle would cover others... the motorcycle was second hand several hundred dollars and not really worth the insurance investment. The loss of time at work, medical bills, and anything else that added to the situation could have place a great burden on me.

I was lucky. Saved and earned enough to purchase a car... got rid of the motorcycle... lowered my risk, and increased my social standing that gave me a leg up in employment advancement.

Since I do not drink, smoke, have tatoos or piercings, and don't have pets... my journey was not easy... but less stressful that it might have been otherwise.

But even when we look to the people with homes that we consider ''stable''; we are discovering that FiST Scores and overall savings are not even close to adequate.

But I doubt the homeless have much IRS debt or heavy student loans... their financial catastrophe when it occurs is more in line with things like their apartment burning down with all their belongs and no means to get recovery.
Those individuals with the right help recover... but it takes time... and they need to dissolve themselves of past persuasions.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Many of you actually believe the current homeless crisis here in Laconia is due to a financial catastrophe.


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Yes. And we are making it worse.
If you lose housing for any reason young or old right now... you aren't going to find housing in the area.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Major

And you don't even have to use a weapon - ask Chauvin and Penny. It's no wonder why no one wants to be a cop! Like we saw in Gilford, cops just doing their job had to be investigated and then exonerated much to the chagrin of a vocal minority.

I can't remember Penny, but your Derek Chauvin reference is gross misinformation. He was convicted of murder and sent away for 20+ years. He is a disgrace to the police, and he made the lives of decent hard-working officers all over the country much more difficult.

[Major]

So much to unpack.

Regarding Chauvin, watch the Fall of Minneapolis and watch the ENTIRE George Floyd video. Floyd was out of control and used the same (almost identical) tactics to get out of the situation that he used in 2018. Chauvin did his job by the book. His investigation and trial were a disgrace, but that shouldn't surprise us.

Regarding the Gilford situation, the policemen were placed on extended leave and were severely criticized in local and regional newspapers. Almost immediately, their motives and competency were placed into question. I am sure they went through hell, and the press and public opinion didn't help. They were not given the benefit of the doubt. At the end, they were just doing their job, and unfortunately, had to defend themselves and others on the scene.

And finally, regarding the homeless situation, I do not view throwing money and sympathy at the problem as compassion. I believe having a zero tolerance approach to the issue as the only way to solve it. That is the compassionate approach. We have spent more money than can be counted trying to solve this and other social issues, and things have become progressively worse.

Someone stated that it's always been this way, just that there is more coverage now. I respectfully disagree. Back in the day, there would be characters around Laconia. I remember Radar riding his tricycle to the Weirs, spinning stories of the CIA being after him. Notwithstanding, the level of degradation to where we are now is alarming. Ask a teacher what it is like in schools. In Meredith, a student identifying as a cat asked for a litter box. I was on the plane the other day, and a grown man had to have a plush toy to cope with flying. We are raising a generation of kids who unfortunately will be unable to cope with being an adult and doing adult things.

It's way worse now. The evidence is all around us. The only way we get back to where we were is adopting a conservative, traditionally American value system, where self-reliance, the value hard work and a having a strong family are taught. We've had 50+ years of liberal experimentation and all it's brought us is weakened family units, a lack of faith and a reliance of government to solve the problems it creates.

Just my 2 cents.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by Major

So much to unpack.

Regarding Chauvin, watch the Fall of Minneapolis and watch the ENTIRE George Floyd video. Floyd was out of control and used the same (almost identical) tactics to get out of the situation that he used in 2018. Chauvin did his job by the book. His investigation and trial were a disgrace, but that shouldn't surprise us.

Regarding the Gilford situation, the policemen were placed on extended leave and were severely criticized in local and regional newspapers. Almost immediately, their motives and competency were placed into question. I am sure they went through hell, and the press and public opinion didn't help. They were not given the benefit of the doubt. At the end, they were just doing their job, and unfortunately, had to defend themselves and others on the scene.

And finally, regarding the homeless situation, I do not view throwing money and sympathy at the problem as compassion. I believe having a zero tolerance approach to the issue as the only way to solve it. That is the compassionate approach. We have spent more money than can be counted trying to solve this and other social issues, and things have become progressively worse.

Someone stated that it's always been this way, just that there is more coverage now. I respectfully disagree. Back in the day, there would be characters around Laconia. I remember Radar riding his tricycle to the Weirs, spinning stories of the CIA being after him. Notwithstanding, the level of degradation to where we are now is alarming. Ask a teacher what it is like in schools. In Meredith, a student identifying as a cat asked for a litter box. I was on the plane the other day, and a grown man had to have a plush toy to cope with flying. We are raising a generation of kids who unfortunately will be unable to cope with being an adult and doing adult things.

It's way worse now. The evidence is all around us. The only way we get back to where we were is adopting a conservative, traditionally American value system, where self-reliance, the value hard work and a having a strong family are taught. We've had 50+ years of liberal experimentation and all it's brought us is weakened family units, a lack of faith and a reliance of government to solve the problems it creates.

Just my 2 cents.

Well said


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[ApS]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I can't remember Penny, but your Derek Chauvin reference is gross misinformation. He was convicted of murder and sent away for 20+ years. He is a disgrace to the police, and he made the lives of decent hard-working officers all over the country much more difficult.

That "information" was seen on every TV.

(...and why my TV has been stored in the attic for 20 years...).



Penny is a former U.S. Marine who's in jail for doing what many of us wish we could have done to protect our citizenry.



End of story...

[Cobaltdeadhead]

There is nothing "by the book" about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck for 9 minutes.

If you believe that those policing tactics are lawful, produce an official manual from any PD that says so.

Note: I am not defending Floyd and his history of criminal behavior.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Cobaltdeadhead

There is nothing "by the book" about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck for 9 minutes.

If you believe that those policing tactics are lawful, produce an official manual from any PD that says so.

Note: I am not defending Floyd and his history of criminal behavior.

You really need to watch the documentary. It was by the book. It is how police are taught to restrain an uncooperative (to put it mildly) suspect. His knee was NOT on his neck. The autopsy confirmed no restriction of blood flow caused by the hold contributed to his death. The first autopsy opined that fentanyl most likely caused death. Floyd was a physical mess and most likely would have died from the stress of the situation. Again, watch the documentary.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Major

So much to unpack.

Regarding Chauvin, watch the Fall of Minneapolis and watch the ENTIRE George Floyd video. Floyd was out of control and used the same (almost identical) tactics to get out of the situation that he used in 2018. Chauvin did his job by the book. His investigation and trial were a disgrace, but that shouldn't surprise us.

Regarding the Gilford situation, the policemen were placed on extended leave and were severely criticized in local and regional newspapers. Almost immediately, their motives and competency were placed into question. I am sure they went through hell, and the press and public opinion didn't help. They were not given the benefit of the doubt. At the end, they were just doing their job, and unfortunately, had to defend themselves and others on the scene.

And finally, regarding the homeless situation, I do not view throwing money and sympathy at the problem as compassion. I believe having a zero tolerance approach to the issue as the only way to solve it. That is the compassionate approach. We have spent more money than can be counted trying to solve this and other social issues, and things have become progressively worse.

Someone stated that it's always been this way, just that there is more coverage now. I respectfully disagree. Back in the day, there would be characters around Laconia. I remember Radar riding his tricycle to the Weirs, spinning stories of the CIA being after him. Notwithstanding, the level of degradation to where we are now is alarming. Ask a teacher what it is like in schools. In Meredith, a student identifying as a cat asked for a litter box. I was on the plane the other day, and a grown man had to have a plush toy to cope with flying. We are raising a generation of kids who unfortunately will be unable to cope with being an adult and doing adult things.

It's way worse now. The evidence is all around us. The only way we get back to where we were is adopting a conservative, traditionally American value system, where self-reliance, the value hard work and a having a strong family are taught. We've had 50+ years of liberal experimentation and all it's brought us is weakened family units, a lack of faith and a reliance of government to solve the problems it creates.

Just my 2 cents.

Not going to happen.
As I stated ex-Representative Littlefield lives in subsidized housing. He is seeking re-election and refuses to use the time he would spend in Concord on increasing his annual income at productive employment because he would lose his subsidized housing.

Its endemic in both parties.

I remember my grandfather shopping at Grossman's. A younger sales clerk saw him looking at something and wondered if he was trying to find the price. He explained, if he needed it... it didn't matter what it cost, he needed it; and if he didn't need it... it didn't matter what it cost, he didn't need it.

Since I only need shelter, water, and food as basics and year-round transportation as a means to stay productively employed... it isn't a life that most could live.

But the problem will expand... and moving them elsewhere would only result in them looking for a remote seldom used location were the basics of shelter, water, and food can be acquired.

In the area, those would be along the rail line and snowmobile trails.
The WOW trail being put in just exposed what had been happening in that area since we were kids in Laconia. Same goes for Hounsell in what used to be the Laconia Pits.

Movement up the WOW trail would put them someplace between the Lakeport intersection and SD/LB or maybe beyond SD/LB but before the Weirs Bridge.
Movement on Hounsell would put them someplace in Gilford? But could easily cause them to move to the State School property before that becomes built out, and then they would move up the trail toward the Meredith border.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Major

You really need to watch the documentary. It was by the book. It is how police are taught to restrain an uncooperative (to put it mildly) suspect. His knee was NOT on his neck. The autopsy confirmed no restriction of blood flow caused by the hold contributed to his death. The first autopsy opined that fentanyl most likely caused death. Floyd was a physical mess and most likely would have died from the stress of the situation. Again, watch the documentary.

Then Chauvin had a terrible lawyer and that should be blamed on Chauvin.
Our Jury System isn't perfect... but it is the best the world has to offer.

[Cobaltdeadhead]

Originally Posted by Major

You really need to watch the documentary. It was by the book. It is how police are taught to restrain an uncooperative (to put it mildly) suspect. His knee was NOT on his neck. The autopsy confirmed no restriction of blood flow caused by the hold contributed to his death. The first autopsy opined that fentanyl most likely caused death. Floyd was a physical mess and most likely would have died from the stress of the situation. Again, watch the documentary.

No offense, but do you need glasses? I've watched the video plenty and his knee absolutely was on the back of Floyd's neck.

And even if I agreed with your POV that he wasn't kneeling on his neck, the man could have been cuffed and immobilized moments after the officer was on top of him. Not 9 minutes.

Chauvin screwed up big time and now he's paying the price. We don't need that kind of cop or policing in our society.

[Major]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Then Chauvin had a terrible lawyer and that should be blamed on Chauvin.
Our Jury System isn't perfect... but it is the best the world has to offer.

His lawyer could have performed better, but the system was stacked against him. The court did not want to hear the defense. So much of the defense's evidence was not introduced in trial. Plus, even if the jury thought he was innocent, they were being outed and would have had their own homes burned down if they came to a different conclusion. We've seen lots and lots of recent litigations that begged for changes in venue, this one demanded it. Have you seen the documentary?

[Major]

Originally Posted by Cobaltdeadhead

No offense, but do you need glasses? I've watched the video plenty and his knee absolutely was on the back of Floyd's neck.

And even if I agreed with your POV that he wasn't kneeling on his neck, the man could have been cuffed and immobilized moments after the officer was on top of him. Not 9 minutes.

Chauvin screwed up big time and now he's paying the price. We don't need that kind of cop or policing in our society.

You obviously have not seen the entire 25+ minute video or the documentary. Until you see these there is no point arguing with you. (BTW, at the beginning of the video, Floyd was handcuffed and immobilized in the police car, but was acting like a lunatic, so they removed him from the car.)

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Major

His lawyer could have performed better, but the system was stacked against him. The court did not want to hear the defense. So much of the defense's evidence was not introduced in trial. Plus, even if the jury thought he was innocent, they were being outed and would have had their own homes burned down if they came to a different conclusion. We've seen lots and lots of recent litigations that begged for changes in venue, this one demanded it. Have you seen the documentary?

No. I don't focus on other areas.

I seldom focus on NH as a whole... but realize that the power of what can be done locally is usually a factor of the Legislature and its decisions.

But that isn't what is effecting the amount of labor that we have in the area.
For Laconia, you'd be better off becoming a Public Works employee... go for a CDL, and then take a position in local private businesses that pay even more than you could make as a LEO.

[Cobaltdeadhead]

Originally Posted by Major

You obviously have not seen the entire 25+ minute video or the documentary. Until you see these there is no point arguing with you. (BTW, at the beginning of the video, Floyd was handcuffed and immobilized in the police car, but was acting like a lunatic, so they removed him from the car.)

I can also say, until you produce me a handbook stating that Chauvin's actions for those 9 minutes was "by the book", it's of little point discussing this with you further. The onus is on you to back up your claim with proof.

That proof is not some documentary that likely has a tremendous amount of bias. Who made it? Project Veritas?

What happened outside of those 9 minutes does not matter. Floyd could have had his wrists and legs cuffed rendering him immobilized once Chauvin was on top of him and controlled. There were 3 other officers that could have applied that restraint while Chauvin had him pinned. Period. End of story.

Chauvin absolutely screwed up and deserves what he got. I have a half dozen relatives in law enforcement and they all say the same.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by Cobaltdeadhead

I can also say, until you produce me a handbook stating that Chauvin's actions for those 9 minutes was "by the book", it's of little point discussing this with you further. The onus is on you to back up your claim with proof.

As they say, without facts and data you’re just another person with an opinion!


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[Mr. V]

I've sympathy for people who are homeless due to bad breaks, e.g. loss of job, divorce: but I've zero sympathy for those who are homeless due to addiction to hard drugs, e.g. meth and / or fentanyl.

Can we all agree that there is no real benefit, either to them or to society, while they are getting wasted and homeless?

If so...how to effectively address the problem?

The so-called "War on Drugs" didn't do it, and decriminalizing it has been an epic failure here in Portland, Oregon.

Ultimately the government will need to force these people into some form of involuntary treatment and rehab program, and I fear that our liberal interpretation of our "liberty interest" from the Constitution may prevent this.

Perhaps the right test case to the USSC would bear fruit?

[Major]

Originally Posted by Cobaltdeadhead

I can also say, until you produce me a handbook stating that Chauvin's actions for those 9 minutes was "by the book", it's of little point discussing this with you further. The onus is on you to back up your claim with proof.

That proof is not some documentary that likely has a tremendous amount of bias. Who made it? Project Veritas?

What happened outside of those 9 minutes does not matter. Floyd could have had his wrists and legs cuffed rendering him immobilized once Chauvin was on top of him and controlled. There were 3 other officers that could have applied that restraint while Chauvin had him pinned. Period. End of story.

Chauvin absolutely screwed up and deserves what he got. I have a half dozen relatives in law enforcement and they all say the same.

I guess I could turn it around on you. Show me a handbook, rule or regulation that says 9 minutes is excessive. I am not an expert on law enforcement, but I suspect it’s based on a reasonableness standard. In light of Floyd’s behavior prior to being detained by Chauvin, certainly his actions could be considered reasonable.

Most (no all) of the people I know who actually saw the documentary think Chauvin got a raw deal, so I guess we’re even.


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[Major]

Also, what do you have against Project Veritas? They are doing God’s work.


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[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Not going to happen.
As I stated ex-Representative Littlefield lives in subsidized housing. He is seeking re-election and refuses to use the time he would spend in Concord on increasing his annual income at productive employment because he would lose his subsidized housing.

Its endemic in both parties.

I remember my grandfather shopping at Grossman's. A younger sales clerk saw him looking at something and wondered if he was trying to find the price. He explained, if he needed it... it didn't matter what it cost, he needed it; and if he didn't need it... it didn't matter what it cost, he didn't need it.

Since I only need shelter, water, and food as basics and year-round transportation as a means to stay productively employed... it isn't a life that most could live.

But the problem will expand... and moving them elsewhere would only result in them looking for a remote seldom used location were the basics of shelter, water, and food can be acquired.

In the area, those would be along the rail line and snowmobile trails.
The WOW trail being put in just exposed what had been happening in that area since we were kids in Laconia. Same goes for Hounsell in what used to be the Laconia Pits.

Movement up the WOW trail would put them someplace between the Lakeport intersection and SD/LB or maybe beyond SD/LB but before the Weirs Bridge.
Movement on Hounsell would put them someplace in Gilford? But could easily cause them to move to the State School property before that becomes built out, and then they would move up the trail toward the Meredith border.

John, everyone could live the life you describe with just the essentials. Most people just choose not to.


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[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by Cobaltdeadhead

I can also say, until you produce me a handbook stating that Chauvin's actions for those 9 minutes was "by the book", it's of little point discussing this with you further. The onus is on you to back up your claim with proof.

That proof is not some documentary that likely has a tremendous amount of bias. Who made it? Project Veritas?

What happened outside of those 9 minutes does not matter. Floyd could have had his wrists and legs cuffed rendering him immobilized once Chauvin was on top of him and controlled. There were 3 other officers that could have applied that restraint while Chauvin had him pinned. Period. End of story.

Chauvin absolutely screwed up and deserves what he got. I have a half dozen relatives in law enforcement and they all say the same.

Well I guess that’s that. The “Period” AND “End of story” doctrines have both been invoked. Q.E.D.


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[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by Major

Also, what do you have against Project Veritas? They are doing God’s work.


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Agreed Major. There’s no bias when you’re just recording what people are doing and saying.


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[Cobaltdeadhead]

Originally Posted by Major

Also, what do you have against Project Veritas? They are doing God’s work.


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You serious Clark?

How many Project Veritas stories proven to be made up propaganda do you need to see before discrediting them? There are literally dozens.

Don't tell me you think Alex Jones is a truthful person too?

[map]

Well there was just an article in the Daily Sun saying they were short 11 police officers and can’t get anyone. Doesn’t sound too good.

My husband and I were at the last city council meeting and there were a couple of homeless with backpacks in the parking lot.

I do know a family that lives near Opechee Park and they’ve been good so far except once they did have to remove a homeless/ drugged up woman who made her way to their front steps.

I live in the Weirs and about two years ago there was a homeless couple hanging around but haven’t seen them anywhere the past two years.

I personally wouldn’t want to live on the other side of Paugus Bay but then again I never liked cities big or small. I don’t even like living in the Weirs with all the noise and craziness, but our home is all we could find that we could afford and checked off a lot of boxes on our wish list in terms of our immediate neighborhood and we do feel safe.

That said, my husband is armed and we have a security system and neighbors homes are very close to each other.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

John, everyone could live the life you describe with just the essentials. Most people just choose not to.


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But that is a traditional conservative lifestyle... and most people choosing not to was my point.

But it creates odd situations.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

I've sympathy for people who are homeless due to bad breaks, e.g. loss of job, divorce: but I've zero sympathy for those who are homeless due to addiction to hard drugs, e.g. meth and / or fentanyl.

Can we all agree that there is no real benefit, either to them or to society, while they are getting wasted and homeless?

If so...how to effectively address the problem?

The so-called "War on Drugs" didn't do it, and decriminalizing it has been an epic failure here in Portland, Oregon.

Ultimately the government will need to force these people into some form of involuntary treatment and rehab program, and I fear that our liberal interpretation of our "liberty interest" from the Constitution may prevent this.

Perhaps the right test case to the USSC would bear fruit?

We have always had that interpretation... it isn't considered liberal.

They don't even need to be addicted to ''hard'' drugs.
Someone that drinks obsessively... and that is a very low level of consumption... spends money toward something that puts their license and livelihood at risk. The number of people that I know that have lost their license astounds me.
The number of people addicted to nicotine... again astounds me.
And if you watch rental adds, no smokers and no pets are the number one restrictions.
Even with pets, I have watched people try to choose the pet over their own well being.

And how many homeowners with a large unexpected repair would be able to foot the bill and not start down the path to ruin?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Cobaltdeadhead

There is nothing "by the book" about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck for 9 minutes. If you believe that those policing tactics are lawful, produce an official manual from any PD that says so. Note: I am not defending Floyd and his history of criminal behavior.

1) [CNN] Adam Bercovici, a retired Los Angeles Police Department lieutenant who works as an expert witness in police use of force cases, agreed that Minneapolis should ban neck restraints.

2) A Medical Examiner said, "If you had brought Floyd's body for my examination without a backstory, I would have advised that Floyd died of advanced atherosclerosis and fentanyl overdose". (One might gasp at the method by which he took that last dose).

'Happy to Google that comment and any other comment one might bring to a forum.



Ever notice that an increasing number of news-sources have "comments are disabled" after recent news stories?

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by Major

So much to unpack.

Regarding Chauvin, watch the Fall of Minneapolis and watch the ENTIRE George Floyd video. Floyd was out of control and used the same (almost identical) tactics to get out of the situation that he used in 2018. Chauvin did his job by the book. His investigation and trial were a disgrace, but that shouldn't surprise us.

Regarding the Gilford situation, the policemen were placed on extended leave and were severely criticized in local and regional newspapers. Almost immediately, their motives and competency were placed into question. I am sure they went through hell, and the press and public opinion didn't help. They were not given the benefit of the doubt. At the end, they were just doing their job, and unfortunately, had to defend themselves and others on the scene.

And finally, regarding the homeless situation, I do not view throwing money and sympathy at the problem as compassion. I believe having a zero tolerance approach to the issue as the only way to solve it. That is the compassionate approach. We have spent more money than can be counted trying to solve this and other social issues, and things have become progressively worse.

Someone stated that it's always been this way, just that there is more coverage now. I respectfully disagree. Back in the day, there would be characters around Laconia. I remember Radar riding his tricycle to the Weirs, spinning stories of the CIA being after him. Notwithstanding, the level of degradation to where we are now is alarming. Ask a teacher what it is like in schools. In Meredith, a student identifying as a cat asked for a litter box. I was on the plane the other day, and a grown man had to have a plush toy to cope with flying. We are raising a generation of kids who unfortunately will be unable to cope with being an adult and doing adult things.

It's way worse now. The evidence is all around us. The only way we get back to where we were is adopting a conservative, traditionally American value system, where self-reliance, the value hard work and a having a strong family are taught. We've had 50+ years of liberal experimentation and all it's brought us is weakened family units, a lack of faith and a reliance of government to solve the problems it creates.

Just my 2 cents.

Chauvin had no chance. After the riots the judge and jury feared repercussions if they found him innocent. A later autopsy proved he did not die of asphyxiation ....Even the Minneapolis police chief threw him to the wolves when he testified that the knee maneuver was not part of police training when, in fact, it was. True that Chauvin was a tough cop but he was tough on white people as well. Absolutely nothing racial as the press played it up. So now a dedicated police officer is in prison fearing for his life every day for just doing his job.

[Major]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Chauvin had no chance. After the riots the judge and jury feared repercussions if they found him innocent. A later autopsy proved he did not die of asphyxiation ....Even the Minneapolis police chief threw him to the wolves when he testified that the knee maneuver was not part of police training when, in fact, it was. True that Chauvin was a tough cop but he was tough on white people as well. Absolutely nothing racial as the press played it up. So now a dedicated police officer is in prison fearing for his life every day for just doing his job.

Thank you for your sober assessment, Sam. Unfortunately, the biased media went with the obvious narrative, facts be damned. It's too bad. Everyone abandoned him, his superiors, his colleagues and even his wife.

[Biggd]

This train has really jumped off the rails!

[John Mercier]

Its definitely not connected to downtown Laconia... or any place in NH for that fact.

Recruits here are just seeing better options from a purely economic standpoint.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Biggd

This train has really jumped off the rails!

I completely disagree. This discussion has everything to do with safety in Laconia and our community in general.

I love Laconia. Although not born here, I was raised here. I have family and lifelong friends who live in the Laconia and the surrounding communities. Almost all them own small businesses and are heavily invested in the community.

Issues like police efficacy and crime (including homelessness) are extremely important when considering a place to live. It is unfortunately that some want to obfuscate the issues with misinformation, but it sometimes happens and has to be addressed.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Major

I completely disagree. This discussion has everything to do with safety in Laconia and our community in general.

I love Laconia. Although not born here, I was raised here. I have family and lifelong friends who live in the Laconia and the surrounding communities. Almost all them own small businesses and are heavily invested in the community.

Issues like police efficacy and crime (including homelessness) are extremely important when considering a place to live. It is unfortunately that some want to obfuscate the issues with misinformation, but it sometimes happens and has to be addressed.

The "misinformation" label is subjective.
Everything is misinformation if you view something differently.

[LoveLakeLife]

Originally Posted by Major

Thank you for your sober assessment, Sam. Unfortunately, the biased media went with the obvious narrative, facts be damned. It's too bad. Everyone abandoned him, his superiors, his colleagues and even his wife.

The narrative they pushed was only obvious to them and the Everything is Racist crowd. Normal people saw it for what it was, a drugged up druggie criminal reaping what he had sown.


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[Major]

Originally Posted by Biggd

The "misinformation" label is subjective.
Everything is misinformation if you view something differently.

Very true. But it seems whatever is published by the mainstream media is considered gospel. Contrary views are misinformation. This isn't always the case.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Major

Very true. But it seems whatever is published by the mainstream media is considered gospel. Contrary views are misinformation. This isn't always the case.

I agree 100%!

Unfortunately, the media (even the so called "mainstream media") slants thier stories to align with thier viewership. It doesn't help that social media algorithms do essentially the same thing. Clickbait media makes BILLIONS! Challenging the 'so called truth" from a media site gets you ostracized & cancelled. The reality is that the truth lies somewhere in the middle once you take the slant out of the news. I miss the days of only 3 major networks, very little slant, and if there was to be a slant it was confined to the op/ed pages, not the main article.

Not a fan of his, but Obie warned about this long ago... 2017ish?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017...t-to-democracy

Woodsy

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Major

I completely disagree. This discussion has everything to do with safety in Laconia and our community in general.

I love Laconia. Although not born here, I was raised here. I have family and lifelong friends who live in the Laconia and the surrounding communities. Almost all them own small businesses and are heavily invested in the community.

Issues like police efficacy and crime (including homelessness) are extremely important when considering a place to live. It is unfortunately that some want to obfuscate the issues with misinformation, but it sometimes happens and has to be addressed.

He meant discussing a case that is not related to NH in general, and not a reason that Laconia has trouble hiring in all departments.

[fatlazyless]

Hey there forum readers, here's an opportunity to have a free meal at a church in Laconia and maybe actually meet some of the locals. I don't know who goes to this Wednesday 5-pm meal but it comes with a low price ...... free! ....... my type of a price!

Free Full Course Hot Meal

Wednesdays - 5pm

All Are Welcome!

Hands Across The Table

St. Andre Bessette Parish Hall

31 Gilford Ave, Laconia

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Hey there forum readers, here's an opportunity to have a free meal at a church in Laconia and maybe actually meet some of the locals. I don't know who goes to this Wednesday 5-pm meal but it comes with a low price ...... free! ....... my type of a price!

Free Full Course Hot Meal

Wednesdays - 5pm

All Are Welcome!

Hands Across The Table

St. Andre Bessette Parish Hall

31 Gilford Ave, Laconia

Given your real estate and financial assets, would you feel any shame showing up there for a free meal?

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Given your real estate and financial assets, would you feel any shame showing up there for a free meal?

Absolutely not. Same for food banks. Don’t use one myself, but are aware of a few couples that visit the local food banks and have multiple million $$ net worths.


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[Descant]

Meals On Wheels of Hillsboro County has a similar program ($3/meal?) for elders, working with local restaurants. (www.HCMOW.org) They get federal funding for the program, so "it's free"--"the government pays for it" as they say in other states.

[Susie Cougar]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Given your real estate and financial assets, would you feel any shame showing up there for a free meal?

He never said that he was going there. He just put the information out there for anyone who might want it.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Susie Cougar

He never said that he was going there. He just put the information out there for anyone who might want it.

I didn't say he was going there either. I just asked if he would feel any shame if he did.

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I didn't say he was going there either. I just asked if he would feel any shame if he did.

I see people loading up 70K SUVs at food banks. Some people have no shame.
I'm all for helping anyone on hard times but freeloaders alcoholics and drug addicts get no sympathy from me. They have chosen their way of life. Also very sick of hearing drug addiction called a "disease". Cancer is a disease, you have a choice before you stick a needle in your arm

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I see people loading up 70K SUVs at food banks. Some people have no shame.

I'm all for helping anyone on hard times but freeloaders alcoholics and drug addicts get no sympathy from me. They have chosen their way of life. Also very sick of hearing drug addiction called a "disease". Cancer is a disease,you have a choice before you stick a needle in your arm

Must be a beautiful view from up there on your high horse.

I pray you never lose a family member or friend to addiction—I've lost students, young teens, who never had a chance. It's heartbreaking to see the effect of drugs, gambling, and alcohol on family and social systems.

And what about all those people who were prescribed opioids for pain management and then were instantly hooked? High-performance athletes who had no idea what they were getting into, roofers who otherwise wouldn't have been able to work, etc.

There's a reason why Purdue and the Sacklers were held liable for their role in the opioid crisis.

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[Major]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Must be a beautiful view from up there on your high horse.

I pray you never lose a family member or friend to addiction—I've lost students, young teens, who never had a chance. It's heartbreaking to see the effect of drugs, gambling, and alcohol on family and social systems.

And what about all those people who were prescribed opioids for pain management and then were instantly hooked? High-performance athletes who had no idea what they were getting into, roofers who otherwise wouldn't have been able to work, etc.

There's a reason why Purdue and the Sacklers were held liable for their role in the opioid crisis.

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You highlight our differences in approach. Rather than blame others, an approach where an individual takes responsibility for his or her situation is better. Self-reliance, accountability and zero tolerance from the rest of us is the path to solving this problem.

For every teen who dies from a one time ingestion (which is tragic), I can name dozens of friends and acquaintances over the years who died of substance abuse, whether from drug use or alcohol abuse. Without exception, each individual had only themselves to blame. They brought heartache and misery to their families. They were smart individuals, but could not make the commitment to stop using.

We have known for a long time that being prescribed opioids to "manage pain" is a bad idea. Personally, when I've had surgeries or procedures and the doctor offered pain medicine, I declined.

And if you really wanted to stop the flow of fentanyl into the U.S., wouldn't you want to immediately close the border? Nearly all illegal drugs coming into the U.S. come through our Southern border. The drug cartels have replaced Purdue, and we don't care. Where are the lawsuits against the cartels? We give them a good leaving alone since influx of drugs is collateral damage to having 10,000,000+ democrat voters.

[DEJ]

You are spot on Major.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Major

You highlight our differences in approach. Rather than blame others, an approach where an individual takes responsibility for his or her situation is better. Self-reliance, accountability and zero tolerance from the rest of us is the path to solving this problem.

For every teen who dies from a one time ingestion (which is tragic), I can name dozens of friends and acquaintances over the years who died of substance abuse, whether from drug use or alcohol abuse. Without exception, each individual had only themselves to blame. They brought heartache and misery to their families. They were smart individuals, but could not make the commitment to stop using.

We have known for a long time that being prescribed opioids to "manage pain" is a bad idea. Personally, when I've had surgeries or procedures and the doctor offered pain medicine, I declined.

And if you really wanted to stop the flow of fentanyl into the U.S., wouldn't you want to immediately close the border? Nearly all illegal drugs coming into the U.S. come through our Southern border. The drug cartels have replaced Purdue, and we don't care. Where are the lawsuits against the cartels? We give them a good leaving alone since influx of drugs is collateral damage to having 10,000,000+ democrat voters.

They could just move them through the northern border. We had a drug problem during the Reagan years also... so it isn't new.

They can't use the housing we have for them because you are not allowed to drink, smoke, or have pets. And for security reasons, they cannot go outside repeatedly when they want to smoke.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I see people loading up 70K SUVs at food banks. Some people have no shame.
I'm all for helping anyone on hard times but freeloaders alcoholics and drug addicts get no sympathy from me. They have chosen their way of life. Also very sick of hearing drug addiction called a "disease". Cancer is a disease, you have a choice before you stick a needle in your arm

I agree but, legal drug companies profited from hooking patients on opioids which left many to find alternative drugs when the prescriptions were turned off.
We like to blame the Mexican Cartels for our drug problems, but they are only feeding the epidemic that our legal drug companies started!

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by Major

And if you really wanted to stop the flow of fentanyl into the U.S., wouldn't you want to immediately close the border? Nearly all illegal drugs coming into the U.S. come through our Southern border. The drug cartels have replaced Purdue, and we don't care. Where are the lawsuits against the cartels? We give them a good leaving alone since influx of drugs is collateral damage to having 10,000,000+ democrat voters.

The bulk of illegal drugs do in fact come from the south through legal points of entry. Increasing border patrol agents and building more fencing will not make a dent in the illegal flow of drugs.

An interesting forum to read.

[The Real BigGuy]

But what will make a dent is more border patrol agents, more equipment to detect illegal drugs crossing at ports of entry, more immigration courts, and the LEGAL ability for a sitting president to close the border. Too bad the republicans in the house voted that down!

Sorry but, I couldn’t help myself!


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[ApS]

Originally Posted by Major

You highlight our differences in approach. Rather than blame others, an approach where an individual takes responsibility for his or her situation is better. Self-reliance, accountability and zero tolerance from the rest of us is the path to solving this problem. For every teen who dies from a one time ingestion (which is tragic), I can name dozens of friends and acquaintances over the years who died of substance abuse, whether from drug use or alcohol abuse. Without exception, each individual had only themselves to blame. They brought heartache and misery to their families. They were smart individuals, but could not make the commitment to stop using. We have known for a long time that being prescribed opioids to "manage pain" is a bad idea. Personally, when I've had surgeries or procedures and the doctor offered pain medicine, I declined. And if you really wanted to stop the flow of fentanyl into the U.S., wouldn't you want to immediately close the border? Nearly all illegal drugs coming into the U.S. come through our Southern border. The drug cartels have replaced Purdue, and we don't care. Where are the lawsuits against the cartels? We give them a good leaving alone since influx of drugs is collateral damage to having 10,000,000+ democrat voters.

I was grateful for morphine during knee replacement recovery--and was prescribed opioids for kidney stone attacks. Regarding the latter, one had to take it immediately when sensing an attack; otherwise, there was scant relief from humanity's worst pain.

("Relief", such as it was).

Once I misdiagnosed an attack (which didn't develop into an attack). Upon taking the opioid, I laid down on my back and was gradually relieved of pains I didn't realize I'd been living with!


However, I learned then how addictive opioids could be. I learned even further when in my doctor's waiting room, a patient--accompanied by his mother(!)--was creating a furor with his medical staff. My doctor walked out to confront his issue--which almost came to fisticuffs! Although much smaller in stature the doctor--a U.S. Marine Reservist--managed to verbally send the young drug-abuser on his way.



My points: don't submit to any OTC drug, be it nicotine, alcohol, vaping, mushrooms, or Marijuana. Sooner or later, such behavior shows up on paper...