HUB status in Moultonborough

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I grew up in a town with an open Town Meeting format. It gives every citizen the opportunity to question department heads, Selectmen, Finance Committee, School Committee and any town official about any issue.

SB2 does the exact same thing. And cuts all the bulls**t out.

[longislander]

I wasn't a resident yet, but Moultonbourough has voted 4 times for SB2 adoption, in the past and failed. Senate bill SB2 passed in 1995 and put the question on the Tuesday ballot for adoption (need a petition). Most voters probably didn't understand what SB2 is/was. In 2019 the NH legislature changed the adoption process with HB415. It changed SB2 adoption from the Tuesday ballot ... to the business session of town meeting. There will be an SB2 petition on Moultonborough's 2023 warrant. Some of us are getting ready with handouts.

SB2 vs. Traditional Meeting

FOR SB2:
SB2: A Month to Research Warrant Discussions Before Voting.
SB2: All Warrant Articles Are Voted on Tuesday Ballot, not just electing
officials, zoning, and other required by statute.
All day voting. In and out in a little while. Not hours and hours waiting
to vote.
SB2: Absentee Ballots Include ALL Warrant Articles
Snowbirds, military, and other absentees can vote on all warrant articles.
SB2: All Voting is Secret, in curtained voting booth
Traditional meeting hand, card, or paper votes intimidate some voters.


AGAINST SB2:
Fewer Attendees at SB2 Deliberative Session
There should be! Many already know how they will vote.
SB2 Does Not Allow Debate of Warrant Articles
Not true! Yes, it does, at the deliberative session. Same as traditional.
SB2 Does Not Allow Amendments to Warrant Articles
Not true! Yes, It Does, at the deliberative session. Same as traditional.
Traditional Meeting Allows For More of a Social Event.
No, it doesn't. SB2 Deliberative Session social event can be the same.
SB2 Jeopardizes the Budget
Traditional imperils the budget more. SB2 has default budget or other.

[Descant]

We changed from traditional to SB2 in 1996. I've been active in town government since 1990 and active in the community since 1976. We used to have huge turnout to towm meeting-three gymnasia full, connected electronically, three big monitors, One Moderator with an assistant in each gym. Worked pretty good. Now, we get ~50 attendees plus department heads. Some union members if there is a contract to vote on, but generally, you can't amend the contract already agreed to by the BOS, just vote yes or no.
The default budget is a scam. Despite attempts to clean up the process, it frequently is closely equal to or even exceeds the proposed budget. All the folks who were afraid that ballot voting would kill the expansion budgets found a way around that by being liberal with the calculation of the default budget. The budget also gets expanded by taking must haves (new roof) out of the operating budget and putting them in as separate warrant articles to make the budget look more conservative. If you like voting by mail for President, you'll love SB2.

[longislander]

Moultonborough has about 5,000 residents. I haven't checked this year, but usually has close to 4,000 registered voters. At a normal town meeting there's about 250-300 voters that show-up, if no rec.center on the warrant. With rec. center like what will come up in 2023, probably 500-700 voters for the first 2-3hours. After the rec.center/bond vote that must legally be voted on first, attendance will drop by @50% or more for the balance of the articles on the warrant.

The same years will have 800-1200 Tuesday voters. Tuesday voter turnout is always much greater than second session.

Which is more important? How many folks show-up for a meeting or how many actually vote! SB2 absentee votes would provide even more democracy by allowing them to vote on all articles. They can't in traditional. They pay taxes. Why not provide a vote.

Does your town have an "official budget committee" ? MoBo doesn't.

https://www.nhmunicipal.org/town-cit...sponsibilities

"Default budget'' means the amount of the same appropriations as contained in the operating budget authorized for the previous year, reduced and increased, as the case may be, by debt service, contracts, and other obligations previously incurred or mandated by law, and reduced by one-time expenditures contained in the operating budget. “One-time expenditures” are appropriations not likely to recur in the succeeding budget.

https://www.nhmunicipal.org/town-cit...ned%20in%20the

Capital expenditures, like a new roof, don't belong in the operating budget. They belong in capital reserve that has projected future costs.

If there was a way to confirm voter ID and guarantee vote integrity in mail-in ballots, I'd be all for it. However, I have no confidence it can be done. Towns can do so ... if they are well managed.

Towns and voters are different, however.

[John Mercier]

Absentee voting is voting by mail.

[longislander]

Absentee is voting by mail ... and does have safeguards. Must obtain ballot from the town clerk, checked by the town for voter registration, checked by the town moderator and town clerk after the election. Is anything 100% ...

Then again, maybe all the town officials are crooks!

A lot easier to falsify "in-person" voting, than by absentee ballot.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/.../657/657-4.htm

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...state_5-22.pdf

Next ....

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Absentee voting is voting by mail.

A local, full time resident might have a medical appointment in Hanover or Boston on election day and they can vote their absentee ballot with the town clerk a day or two or three or four, earlier.

[longislander]

Absentee voting is voting by mail.

Based whose definition.

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference
Published November 3, 2022

https://www.dictionary.com/e/absente...ail-in-ballot/

[John Mercier]

By how we do it.

From your linK...

"An absentee ballot is a ballot used to cast an absentee vote, which is submitted, usually by mail, by a voter known as an absentee."
"When someone is approved to vote absentee, election officials mail the voter an absentee ballot, which they complete and sign, and return by mail or, under certain circumstances, fax"

[longislander]

Is this the link you mention.!

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference

[longislander]

Returning to the title of this thread ... HUB status in Moultonborough and
regarding the $.36/$1000 mentioned in the survey.

Found out from the source of the survey that the number is the last entry on the bond statement received by the source which is titled : FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. Here's the last three columns (of 10) of a NH muni bond for MoBo 2022 Valuation $4,892,023,118 at 5.25% for 15 years

Fiscal yr. Total
Payment Assessed Valuation FY-Est Tax Rate Inc..
$356,085.38 $ 4,892,023,118 $0.07

My calculations seem to indicate the last number on the left is a ratio of Total Payments divided by Assessed Valuation:

($356,085.38/$4,892,023,118) X 1000 = $.072789, shortened to $ .07

Worst yet, they used the first entry (they said) which is interest only, no principal. The other columns have the interest and principal. The other columns each have a number for FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. and seem to follow process of calculartion.

MoBo valuation this 2022 year $4,892,023,118; 2021 last year $3,943,560,976; difference $948,462,142. 24.1% Almost a billion dollars

The valuation on the bond is the same for all 15 years and does not change, not annually like our assessments and taxrate.

I'll let the reader dedcide what this has to do with "assessments" regarding the survey.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by longislander

Is this the link you mention.!

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference

The quotes come from the link you posted.

[longislander]

What is it you don't understand?

Based whose definition.

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference
Published November 3, 2022

https://www.dictionary.com/e/absente...ail-in-ballot/

Heading out for now ...
Let me know how I can help you understand.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Longislander, it sounds as though by their estimates, this HUB monstrosity will cost the taxpayer .07+/- per $1000 assessed value. Their figures do not take into account operating costs, which will be significant. Am I on the right track? Thanks.

[phoenix]

We have all seen how almost everything has gone up and to assume that this price won't go up if it gets out to bid is wishful thinking . Also interest rates may go up. So, whatever the estimate presented will end up going up. We need a great turnout of no voters as i assume all those in favor will be at the town meeting

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Longislander, it sounds as though by their estimates, this HUB monstrosity will cost the taxpayer .07+/- per $1000 assessed value. Their figures do not take into account operating costs, which will be significant. Am I on the right track? Thanks.

The 7 cents per thousand is the estimated annual operating cost for the first year.

[longislander]

Am I on the right track?

Just got back from Heath's. Making a stir-fry tonight.

Yes you are correct regarding the operating costs, they are not included. However, each of the 15 years has a different Y-Est Tax Rate Inc.., since the principal or interest has yearly change.The Hub estimate is $14,243,415 and the 2022 town valuation is $4,892,023,118.

I did two bonds, one, a Level Debt bond and the other for a Level Principal bond principal $14,243,415 at 5.25% interest for 15 years. I should say they are NHMBB, NH Municipal Bond Bank bonds, not mine. The calculation for what is the last column is mine, but the number is on the bond.

Here are the numbers from the last column of the Level Debt bond: the first year is .07 but is interest only. Year two is .27, the rest of the years are .28

Here are the numbers for the Level Principal bond: .07,.34, .33,.32,.31,.30,.29,28,.27,.26, 25,.24,.23, .22, .21, and two for last year .21,.20 (Feb & Aug.)


At the end of the 15years:
Level Debt bond: total Interest $6,692,400.02
Total payments for 15 years: $20,935,815.02

Level Principal bond:total interest $5,959,762.52
Total Payments for 15 years: $20,203,177.52.

Each year has a different total.

.07/1000 of $4,892,023,118 is $342,441 the interest only for the first year only, not what it will cost per year.
The $14,243,415 cost is 29% of the present town valuation of $4,892,023,118.

I won't post here the annual costs principal and interest for each for type of bond,but I have in the bonds in PDF format. Haven't tried to post a PDF yet.

The bond will probably be more because at the 12/15/22 select board meeting it was mentioned a number of $15 mllion was going to be used. Probably another million plus in the end.

This expense should show up annually in the budget (didn't say operating cost).

[longislander]

The 7 cents per thousand is the estimated annual operating cost for the first year.

No it's not. Operating costs aren't even the calculation. It is part of the building cost quote only.

The same contractor that did the $14,243,415 building estimate quoted $248,932 for total operating expense. If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell ya!

[longislander]

We have all seen how almost everything has gone up and to assume that this price won't go up if it gets out to bid is wishful thinking . Also interest rates may go up. So, whatever the estimate presented will end up going up. We need a great turnout of no voters as i assume all those in favor will be at the town meeting

Agree.

And please stick around for a vote on SB2, since the bond has to legally be one of the first warrant articles voted on at town meeting.

[longislander]

I quoted your link...
Maybe you should have read it before posting it.

No you didn't ... you quoted part of it, I suspect. I won't bother looking it up. I do read and understand the links I post. Ohhh ... that's right. You're the one that had trouble understanding "fixed" from "fixed income" when nobody else seemed to have the difficulty. Sometimes only God can help, presuming an acceptance that God exists ... not just in Google!

[John Mercier]

The portion all talk of ''mail''.
Fixed is not adjusted.

Like a ''fixed'' mortgage... the rate doesn't adjust.

SS is not fixed... it is adjusted.
And many times adjusted far beyond earned income.

It is why the kids say... ''OK Boomer''.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by longislander

What is it you don't understand?



Heading out for now ...
Let me know how I can help you understand.

I quoted your link...
Maybe you should have read it before posting it.

[tummyman]

In my opinion, it might be good for this blog to get back to the real topic...the HUB instead of debating absentee voting that would not apply to this project. Just saying...

[longislander]

Just finished supper (stir-fry) and took another look at my calculation for my assessment. I must have been dazed before supper with the calcualtions. My bill would come in at an increase of 6.09% of the 2022 tax bill, not 21.3%.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I am not sure of your calculations, but don’t forget the 13%+/- rebate we got from the town in 2022 for tax overpayments returned to the taxpayers. If you figure that 13% + your 7%, the amount is roughly your original amount. Don’t forget….that tax rebate was a one time event.

[longislander]

The $1.8 million returned to the taxpayers was what brought the rate down to $4.78/$1000. That was part of the unassigned funds and the select board still had enough money for the 12.5% that is supposed to be kept for unexpected expense, according to town policy #32. I was part of that debate at the select board meeting, arguing for returning the $1.8 mllion to the taxpayers. Some of the 5 select board members wanted to put into capital reserves. One of the capital reserve funds is CR148. It happens to be the capital reserve fund for a Community/recreation center! The board vote was 3-2 to give back the $1.8 miillion to the taxpayers. Yes there are strong Hub supporters on the select board.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...alance2015.pdf

[longislander]

Sue Doe-Nym

a property assessed at $1,000,000

$1,000,000 X $.00478 = $4780
$1,000,000 X $.00507 = $5070

$5070 - $4780 = $290


$290 is what percent of $4780
$290 = y/100 X $4780
6.1% = Y or the percentage increase in the 2022 tax bill
or
29000 divided by 4780 = 6.1

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by longislander

Based whose definition.

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference
Published November 3, 2022

https://www.dictionary.com/e/absente...ail-in-ballot/

"Expanding access to voting by mail is generally considered great for all voters and their ability to exercise their right to vote."

Taken directly from link above. Thanks for posting.

[tummyman]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

"Expanding access to voting by mail is generally considered great for all voters and their ability to exercise their right to vote."

Taken directly from link above. Thanks for posting.

Until it gets mucked up with potential issues of fraud. I still like the in person with identification or absentee after verification when you request the ballot. Just mailing to everyone exposes all kinds of issues. Problem we have locally is the fact that non residents pay 70% or mor of the taxes but are totally disenfranchised from voting. Maintaining a "local election" voting list would solve that but nobody in government is willing to change the laws. In the case of the HUB, it will boil down to what side (pro/con)can drive the more people to vote in person on an article that they will pay less than 30% of the cost.

[John Mercier]

Those that are not residents knew the condition when we purchased the property.