The Dive

[NH.Solar]

I think the Dive should moor on the deep side of the T'boro dock at 19 Mile Bay. That way clients could choose to go left to get high at the Dive, or right to get high with Epic...

[sum-r breeze]

We went to the Paugus Bay sandbar specifically because The Dive was going to be there. I can’t even begin to tell you how great a time we had with Betsy and Jamie. It’s a rare thing in today’s world where the owners of a business are on site every time it’s in operation. Both were there and were absolutely the most friendly and welcoming of any Bar / Restaurant I’ve been to in the Lakes Region. We had drinks, appetizers and lunch. We met people who were friends of the owners and they invited us to a land based party later in the evening. We didn’t attend but once again….met some awesome people had some great food and genuinely had a great time. So the enormous amount of support by The Dive patrons that I saw while on board should be the real “litmus” test as to whether they should be on the Lake and doing their thing. NOT the small handful of detractors constantly complaining about them.

The Breeze (aka Paulie)

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by sum-r breeze

We went to the Paugus Bay sandbar specifically because The Dive was going to be there. I can’t even begin to tell you how great a time we had with Betsy and Jamie. It’s a rare thing in today’s world where the owners of a business are on site every time it’s in operation. Both were there and were absolutely the most friendly and welcoming of any Bar / Restaurant I’ve been to in the Lakes Region. We had drinks, appetizers and lunch. We met people who were friends of the owners and they invited us to a land based party later in the evening. We didn’t attend but once again….met some awesome people had some great food and genuinely had a great time. So the enormous amount of support by The Dive patrons that I saw while on board should be the real “litmus” test as to whether they should be on the Lake and doing their thing. NOT the small handful of detractors constantly complaining about them.

The Breeze (aka Paulie)

Awesome post Paulie. People seem to have a great time and I hope they continue to be busy and become a successful business in the lakes region. The small amount of detractors here have will have little influence on its future.


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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Awesome post Paulie. People seem to have a great time and I hope they continue to be busy and become a successful business in the lakes region. The small amount of detractors here have will have little influence on its future.


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These types of things usually run into enough drama that they get snuffed.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by sum-r breeze

We went to the Paugus Bay sandbar specifically because The Dive was going to be there. I can’t even begin to tell you how great a time we had with Betsy and Jamie. It’s a rare thing in today’s world where the owners of a business are on site every time it’s in operation. Both were there and were absolutely the most friendly and welcoming of any Bar / Restaurant I’ve been to in the Lakes Region. We had drinks, appetizers and lunch. We met people who were friends of the owners and they invited us to a land based party later in the evening. We didn’t attend but once again….met some awesome people had some great food and genuinely had a great time. So the enormous amount of support by The Dive patrons that I saw while on board should be the real “litmus” test as to whether they should be on the Lake and doing their thing. NOT the small handful of detractors constantly complaining about them.

The Breeze (aka Paulie)

Great positive post. Thanks for a full review.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by sum-r breeze

We went to the Paugus Bay sandbar specifically because The Dive was going to be there. I can’t even begin to tell you how great a time we had with Betsy and Jamie. It’s a rare thing in today’s world where the owners of a business are on site every time it’s in operation. Both were there and were absolutely the most friendly and welcoming of any Bar / Restaurant I’ve been to in the Lakes Region. We had drinks, appetizers and lunch. We met people who were friends of the owners and they invited us to a land based party later in the evening. We didn’t attend but once again….met some awesome people had some great food and genuinely had a great time. So the enormous amount of support by The Dive patrons that I saw while on board should be the real “litmus” test as to whether they should be on the Lake and doing their thing. NOT the small handful of detractors constantly complaining about them.

The Breeze (aka Paulie)

By this rationale, McDonald's could set up a restaurant in the Wolfeboro public parking lot if enough people liked it? Or Epic could set up a seaplane operation at the Pier 19 public docks?

That a commercial business using public resources to profit is ok as long as it passes the "litmus test" of enough people liking it?

As I've said in the past, as long as The Dive keeps moving, it's less of a problem. The moment it monopolizes one public space, however, it should be rejected—for every one of you who "seeks it out," there's just as many or more who seek to avoid it.

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[TomF]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

By this rationale, McDonald's could set up a restaurant in the Wolfeboro public parking lot if enough people liked it? Or Epic could set up a seaplane operation at the Pier 19 public docks?

That a commercial business using public resources to profit is ok as long as it passes the "litmus test" of enough people liking it?

As I've said in the past, as long as The Dive keeps moving, it's less of a problem. The moment it monopolizes one public space, however, it should be rejected—for every one of you who "seeks it out," there's just as many or more who seek to avoid it.

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So is it anchored there overnight and all trough the week or does it move there every day?


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[joey2665]

Originally Posted by TomF

So is it anchored there overnight and all trough the week or does it move there every day?


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It has a dock on Paugus it returns to at the end on the day. You are not allowed to anchor on the water overnight on Winnipesaukee


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[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

By this rationale, McDonald's could set up a restaurant in the Wolfeboro public parking lot if enough people liked it? Or Epic could set up a seaplane operation at the Pier 19 public docks?

That a commercial business using public resources to profit is ok as long as it passes the "litmus test" of enough people liking it?

As I've said in the past, as long as The Dive keeps moving, it's less of a problem. The moment it monopolizes one public space, however, it should be rejected—for every one of you who "seeks it out," there's just as many or more who seek to avoid it.

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I don't understand your position against "...commercial business using public resources to profit....."

Every marina on this lake uses public resources to profit. Every charter boat (including Mt. Washington and its sister vessels) uses public resources to profit. The NASWA, Church Landing, Town Docks and every other restaurant with private docks use public resources to profit. Why is it ok for some, but not ok for others?

[fatlazyless]

Just wondering here ...... it's become a somewhat regular occurrence for me to see other shoppers, always men, in the Plymouth Market Basket who are dressed in various informal clothing and have a black semi-auto hand gun either in a holster or inside their belt with the handlle showing. Apparently this is okay to do at Market Basket but is not allowed at Walmart and you never see it at Walmart.

Question to you: As a patron of The Dive would you be okay with another Dive patron openly, in plain sight, wearing a holstered black semi-auto hand gun while eating and drinking onboard The Dive?

Maybe I should start a new thread on this just cause it will give me something to do, here!

If it is accepted and okay at Market Basket-Plymouth NH, do you think it would be accepted and okay onboard The Dive, in your opinion, if you were a patron there at the time?

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

I don't understand your position against "...commercial business using public resources to profit....."

Every marina on this lake uses public resources to profit. Every charter boat (including Mt. Washington and its sister vessels) uses public resources to profit. The NASWA, Church Landing, Town Docks and every other restaurant with private docks use public resources to profit. Why is it ok for some, but not ok for others?

All of those examples own the property they use or lease publicly owned property that the public (as decided by elected representatives) has deemed valuable and/or are transient.

To me, the lake and its coves and sandbars and public docks, etc. are like little state parks that should not be affected long-term by or profited off by commercial businesses.

If the Dive kept moving—minimizing its overall impact on landowners, boaters, other waterfront businesses—I don't think people would have nearly as much of a problem.

It's really too bad the Weirs didn't work out because I think that could've been a win-win.


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[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

All of those examples own the property they use or lease publicly owned property that the public (as decided by elected representatives) has deemed valuable and/or are transient.

To me, the lake and its coves and sandbars and public docks, etc. are like little state parks that should not be affected long-term by or profited off by commercial businesses.

If the Dive kept moving—minimizing its overall impact on landowners, boaters, other waterfront businesses—I don't think people would have nearly as much of a problem.

It's really too bad the Weirs didn't work out because I think that could've been a win-win.


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How do you feel about the pontoon boats that travel around selling ice cream, etc? Is it just that the Dive anchors at the spot for the day? Just trying to understand your thought process.


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by gillygirl

How do you feel about the pontoon boats that travel around selling ice cream, etc? Is it just that the Dive anchors at the spot for the day? Just trying to understand your thought process.


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The ice cream dude is in one place for a few minutes—he does not use public property to launch or wait for customers, and he doesn't monopolize or affect any one space for more than a few minutes. People can go, or own, anywhere on the lake and their use of the space will not be affected long-term.

The Dive sits in place for whole days and, as it has been in Paugus this year and W. Alton a couple years back, weeks at a time. People cannot use that public space, nor can they own there, without being affected by it.

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[Garcia]

I don't want The Dive parking in front of my house. I don't like the concept of it. If it were a floating bar/restaurant, a cruising vessel, or more mobile and could cruise around the lake a stop and different locations over the course a a day, fine. Better yet, if there were a website with real time GPS and an app so you could order and go pick up the order, I would give it a try.

[wentworthwhitbreadIII]

The owners of the Dive are claiming "woke" culture is against them on FB, but they are also promoting "Save our Sandbars" on FB when no one complaining about the Dive has suggested closing down any of the sandbars. While I fully support their rights to operate their business, they should focus on their mission and build relationships with the community and their patrons versus conflating the issue into something it's not.

[Newbiesaukee]

No strong feelings about the Dive one way or the other, but as wentworthwhitbreadIII pointed out above and I confirmed on its public FB page, The Dive complaining about “woke” people “cancelling” them doesn’t sound very welcoming to me.

[erk]

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

No strong feelings about the Dive one way or the other, but as wentworthwhitbreadIII pointed out above and I confirmed on its public FB page, The Dive complaining about “woke” people “cancelling” them doesn’t sound very welcoming to me.

Don’t forget Jamie’s rant about “douchebag rich people”. Hope he wasn’t biting the hand that feeds him with that comment.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Does anyone know what Laconia wanted to charge the Dive owners to make improvements to the Weirs Beach dock so they could always berth at that location?

[John Mercier]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...77b018bfb.html

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...77b018bfb.html

Thanks for the repost of the link. Reading between the lines just a bit , it looks like the reason things did not work at The Weirs is that it was too expensive for them to build a dock to house themselves.

This relates to Think's general point--their business plan requires a public dock space. In other words, they need a public subsidy to make ends meet--if they have to pay the full price for their own dock, they cannot make ends meet.

And if you accept the above--then The Dive does not pass the "litmus test" of being a viable business that covers its own costs, at least at The Weirs.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Thanks for the repost of the link. Reading between the lines just a bit , it looks like the reason things did not work at The Weirs is that it was too expensive for them to build a dock to house themselves.

This relates to Think's general point--their business plan requires a public dock space. In other words, they need a public subsidy to make ends meet--if they have to pay the full price for their own dock, they cannot make ends meet.

And if you accept the above--then The Dive does not pass the "litmus test" of being a viable business that covers its own costs, at least at The Weirs.

I disagree. Yes it probably was too expensive but they have adjusted their plan and have been very busy this season with less overhead. Instead of building an expensive addition to a public dock that they only had a 3 year lease on they now just rent a mooring slip on Paugus. FYI the investment probably would have worked if they received the original 10 year lease they were seeking.


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[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I disagree. Yes it probably was too expensive but they have adjusted their plan and have been very busy this season with less overhead. Instead of building an expensive addition to a public dock that they only had a 3 year lease on they now just rent a mooring slip on Paugus. FYI the investment probably would have worked if they received the original 10 year lease they were seeking.

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Thanks--I agree that a business that was viable on a dock could still decide on a mooring to lower overhead.

But LDS reported that it was The Dive that changed it's goal from 10 years and dock construction to 3 years of free rent. So I am not sold on the idea that they would have been viable at the dock. From LDS:

The Dive — a two-story establishment constructed on a self-propelled barge — initially sought a 10-year lease, but after further discussions with the city reduced the term to three years during which time it would pay no rent. However, under the terms of the lease the Dive was required to build a 1,376-foot expansion of the Weirs Docks at its expense and obtain any state permits necessary for the construction.

[Descant]

It appears the evening cruise an wedding/event business from the original business plan has not borne fruit. Nevertheless, three years, including a pandemic, is longer than many restaurants survive. They seem to be flexible in their business plan and keep moving forward in a difficult business. Bravo.

[John Mercier]

Ten year lease may have included a monthly or annual rent... the article was not specific.

Needless to say, the City of Laconia could not provide public space that subsidized an entire competing with shore-based establishments paying property taxes.

Lots of money floating around the area right now... so not really that hard to make a business go. But a deep capital investment when the tide turns, and it can happen in any venture or the greater economy in general - that is when great businesses show what they have.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by erk

Don’t forget Jamie’s rant about “douchebag rich people”. Hope he wasn’t biting the hand that feeds him with that comment.

He is not biting the hand- not all rich people are DBs, but a good few are! The DBs are not going to the Dive.

[John Mercier]

I guess that would be how you define ''rich''.
The latest Federal Reserve study has Americans moving the bar down from $2.4 million in networth to $1.9 million in networth.

Or is it more like this...
https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.c...-to-get-there/

[TKD]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I guess that would be how you define ''rich''.

The latest Federal Reserve study has Americans moving the bar down from $2.4 million in networth to $1.9 million in net worth.

Or is it more like this...

https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.c...-to-get-there/

Thanks for the share. Eye opening - scary as well. Reminds me of 08-09 unfortunately.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I guess that would be how you define ''rich''.
The latest Federal Reserve study has Americans moving the bar down from $2.4 million in networth to $1.9 million in networth.

Or is it more like this...
https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.c...-to-get-there/

Money isn't everything but it sure does help!

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I guess that would be how you define ''rich''.
The latest Federal Reserve study has Americans moving the bar down from $2.4 million in networth to $1.9 million in networth.

Or is it more like this...
https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.c...-to-get-there/

This is a really good article--the AAW tool is very cool (though it does not take a genius to know this guy's overspending, haha)

Even if times are tough, everybody over age 25 or so should be saving 10%/year to avoid an unpleasant reality at retirement (easiest way for most is employer's 401K)

[Woody38]

The person who spends more than s/he earns is poor.
The person who spends less than s/he earns is rich.
Something I've always lived by. From day one my wife and I always had a roof over our head, food on the table and clothes on our backs. I suppose we were rich when we had little and it was great watching the richness grow. We are fortunate that we have two sons who do not need any assistance from us. Maybe having learned by watching their parents.

_________________________________

I am a retired workaholic and continuing aquaholic

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

This is a really good article--the AAW tool is very cool (though it does not take a genius to know this guy's overspending, haha)

Even if times are tough, everybody over age 25 or so should be saving 10%/year to avoid an unpleasant reality at retirement (easiest way for most is employer's 401K)

His retirement savings are actually above the mean for someone his age...
We no longer actually suggest the 10%, because we have better projection tools. But even Fidelity uses an age times annual household income multiply that can be found in the FiST score calculations.

A basic outdated calculation on that would suggest that he should be around $1.8 million in retirement savings (6X) for his age. But the simple calculation doesn't deal well with incomes over the middle class income threshold of about 90K annual household. It doesn't adjust well for the drop in SS income replacement, nor can it take into account the percentage replacement drop expected in the middle of 2030s.

Needless to say, he is doing very well when the mean to age is accounted for... but terrible when the income aspect is involved. We see a lot of that.

[Pam]

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

No strong feelings about the Dive one way or the other, but as wentworthwhitbreadIII pointed out above and I confirmed on its public FB page, The Dive complaining about “woke” people “cancelling” them doesn’t sound very welcoming to me.

This thread piqued my curiosity. I've seen the Dive go by, and have thought the concept was pretty cool, though I haven't tried it yet. However, I went to the FB page and listened to the owner's diatribe on "woke" culture and being "cancelled" and was immediately turned off. These are super lazy terms made popular by right wing politicians, do not even apply to the Dive's particular situation, and do nothing to actually solve problems. His attitude also does not bode well for his future success since the airing of grievances in this manner is unprofessional, IMO.

[sum-r breeze]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

By this rationale, McDonald's could set up a restaurant in the Wolfeboro public parking lot if enough people liked it? Or Epic could set up a seaplane operation at the Pier 19 public docks?

That a commercial business using public resources to profit is ok as long as it passes the "litmus test" of enough people liking it?

As I've said in the past, as long as The Dive keeps moving, it's less of a problem. The moment it monopolizes one public space, however, it should be rejected—for every one of you who "seeks it out," there's just as many or more who seek to avoid it.

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Ok, you just keep whining and complaining, I'll keep going to The Dive and enjoying my Summer with them. I only post about my direct experiences so people who HAVEN'T been on it will get the proper information. They run a great operation and have the following on the lake to prove it. The place is always busy and the food quality and drinks are top notch. Bravo Jaime and Betsy!!

The Breeze (aka paulie)

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by sum-r breeze

Ok, you just keep whining and complaining, I'll keep going to The Dive and enjoying my Summer with them. I only post about my direct experiences so people who HAVEN'T been on it will get the proper information. They run a great operation and have the following on the lake to prove it. The place is always busy and the food quality and drinks are top notch. Bravo Jaime and Betsy!!

The Breeze (aka paulie)

I'll remember that when the lake is "presented courtesy of Coca-Cola."

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[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by sum-r breeze

Ok, you just keep whining and complaining, I'll keep going to The Dive and enjoying my Summer with them. I only post about my direct experiences so people who HAVEN'T been on it will get the proper information. They run a great operation and have the following on the lake to prove it. The place is always busy and the food quality and drinks are top notch. Bravo Jaime and Betsy!!

The Breeze (aka paulie)

Maybe if the place is always busy they will add a 3rd story before the 2022 season!

Glad you posted, good to have balance and all sides of the story. Who knows how many feel one way vs. another way. My feeling has always been as long as they are following all rules and have all needed permits, then hope things go well for them.

[WillyK]

Originally Posted by NH.Solar

I think the Dive should moor on the deep side of the T'boro dock at 19 Mile Bay. That way clients could choose to go left to get high at the Dive, or right to get high with Epic...

How about The Dive just straps on a propeller and becomes a seaplane? Two benefits:

1. It can land directly at each day's sandbar destination, avoiding routes near the "it's an eyesore" critics.
2. This forum can consolidate all the Dive threads with the 19 Mile Bay seaplane threads. So efficient!



FWIW, I don't mind the Dive. I've been on it only twice, had a good time, and it's a fun oddity to share with guests who visit. Admittedly, it doesn't pass by my place directly (bridge near me would decapitate the second floor). Easier to be relaxed about it when I only have to experience it amidst the chaos of a Braun Bay sandbar party (where The Dive is rarely the most offensive boat nearby...)

[winni83]

It appears that Jamison Merriman, co owner of the Dive, does not think much of this forum. From his FB page.

“For the idiots on Winnipesaukee forum, you know the ones that hide behind their keyboards.. idiots
May be an image of one or more people and text that says 'Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.' “

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by winni83

It appears that Jamison Merriman, co owner of the Dive, does not think much of this forum. From his FB page.

“For the idiots on Winnipesaukee forum, you know the ones that hide behind their keyboards.. idiots
May be an image of one or more people and text that says 'Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.' “

Name calling seems to be the new norm these days.
What's the old saying, "you get more bees with honey"?

[winni83]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Name calling seems to be the new norm these days.
What's the old saying, "you get more bees with honey"?

I agree. There are a lot of nasty comments on the various FB pages that support the Dive. Here is one from the Dive's own page made by someone referring to those that do not like or oppose the Dive. The comment was "liked" by the Dive:

"These people need their faces punched in."

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by winni83

I agree. There are a lot of nasty comments on the various FB pages that support the Dive. Here is one from the Dive's own page made by someone referring to those that do not like or oppose the Dive. The comment was "liked" by the Dive:

"These people need their faces punched in."

Maybe everyone will be a little less grumpy now that the sun is out.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Maybe everyone will be a little less grump now that the sun is out.

Agree


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[John Mercier]

I don't think they are grumpy.
Just a lot of people moving in different directions.

We see this with every New Money cycle. Our teachers used to warn us about it.
Economic boom resulting in growth and diversity, and then the decline.
Some declines are slow and steady, were most everyone adjusts; some are just dramatic with heartbreaking results.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by winni83

I agree. There are a lot of nasty comments on the various FB pages that support the Dive. Here is one from the Dive's own page made by someone referring to those that do not like or oppose the Dive. The comment was "liked" by the Dive:

"These people need their faces punched in."

Its a total turn off on any forum when it gets personal or violent.

No one wins,,,

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by WillyK

How about The Dive just straps on a propeller and becomes a seaplane? Two benefits:

1. It can land directly at each day's sandbar destination, avoiding routes near the "it's an eyesore" critics.
2. This forum can consolidate all the Dive threads with the 19 Mile Bay seaplane threads. So efficient!



FWIW, I don't mind the Dive. I've been on it only twice, had a good time, and it's a fun oddity to share with guests who visit. Admittedly, it doesn't pass by my place directly (bridge near me would decapitate the second floor). Easier to be relaxed about it when I only have to experience it amidst the chaos of a Braun Bay sandbar party (where The Dive is rarely the most offensive boat nearby...)

Actually Braun Bay seems like the perfect place for the Dive, it should blend in perfectly and have little impact.

Braun Bay is so much better than the tiny sandbars at West Alton and Paugas Bay, they make no sense at all for such a huge piece of equipment. They must displace 20+ boats on the West Alton or Paugas Bay sandbars. I also cant imagine the Margate is thrilled to have it there.

Is there some reason it no longer goes to Braun?

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Is there some reason it no longer goes to Braun?

I would guess navigation challenges. From it's dock in Paugus to Braun must take a chunk of time, what does it travel at, 5-6 mph?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Actually Braun Bay seems like the perfect place for the Dive, it should blend in perfectly and have little impact.

Braun Bay is so much better than the tiny sandbars at West Alton and Paugas Bay, they make no sense at all for such a huge piece of equipment. They must displace 20+ boats on the West Alton or Paugas Bay sandbars. I also cant imagine the Margate is thrilled to have it there.

Is there some reason it no longer goes to Braun?

I would imagine its a long ride in wide open water, and not easily accessible to re-supply during the day if needed. It does make sense to be there though.

I need to make it a point to try it sometime soon.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Actually Braun Bay seems like the perfect place for the Dive, it should blend in perfectly and have little impact.

Braun Bay is so much better than the tiny sandbars at West Alton and Paugas Bay, they make no sense at all for such a huge piece of equipment. They must displace 20+ boats on the West Alton or Paugas Bay sandbars. I also cant imagine the Margate is thrilled to have it there.

Is there some reason it no longer goes to Braun?

If you have seen it set up at Paugus or West Alton you could seen it displaces 4-5 boats at the most and these locations fit very well into their plan this year. Very little travel and easy to resupply during the day with nice size crowds

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by joey2665

If you have seen it set up at Paugus or West Alton you could seen it displaces 4-5 boats at the most and these locations fit very well into their plan this year. Very little travel and easy to resupply during the day with nice size crowds

Yes I have seen it at West Alton and your 4 - 5 boat estimate is way off, its huge.

Are you talking about 4 - 5 35' boats or 20' boats???

It probably displaces more than double your 4 - 5 boats estimate just around the parameter, let alone the actual footprint of its structure.

In a place like Braun it would have minimal impact, but somewhere like West Alton or ever worse the Paugas sandbar, its overwhelming!

[John Mercier]

The sandbars already have a crowd.
So travelling to them, and then doing what you can to attract customer is the business rational.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Yes I have seen it at West Alton and your 4 - 5 boat estimate is way off, its huge.

Are you talking about 4 - 5 35' boats or 20' boats???

It probably displaces more than double your 4 - 5 boats estimate just around the parameter, let alone the actual footprint of its structure.

In a place like Braun it would have minimal impact, but somewhere like West Alton or ever worse the Paugas sandbar, its overwhelming!

XCR... You have your math wrong!

The NHMP measures from the gunwale to gunwale when determining rafting distance, not center line to center line.

The Dive measures at 20' beam x 60' length. so to make it easy, say you are in a no rafting zone like Braun or West Alton where boats have to stay 25' apart.... the Dive takes up the same approximate space of 2 boats (8.5' x 20')... 17' for the beam of the 2 boats + 75' distance.

25' + (Dive 60') +25' = 110' total

25' + (8.5' boat) + 25' + (8.5' boat) + 25' for s total of 92'

So there is really only 18' linear difference.... so to be fair lets say it takes up 2.5 smaller boats worth of space... or 2 large cabin cruisers!

In places like Braun Bay & West Alton, its entirely possible for them to anchor outside the no rafting zone.

In places like the Margate sandbar.... it is not a NRZ.


Woodsy

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

XCR... You have your math wrong!

The NHMP measures from the gunwale to gunwale when determining rafting distance, not center line to center line.

The Dive measures at 20' beam x 60' length. so to make it easy, say you are in a no rafting zone like Braun or West Alton where boats have to stay 25' apart.... the Dive takes up the same approximate space of 2 boats (8.5' x 20')... 17' for the beam of the 2 boats + 75' distance.

25' + (Dive 60') +25' = 110' total

25' + (8.5' boat) + 25' + (8.5' boat) + 25' for s total of 92'

So there is really only 18' linear difference.... so to be fair lets say it takes up 2.5 smaller boats worth of space... or 2 large cabin cruisers!

In places like Braun Bay & West Alton, its entirely possible for them to anchor outside the no rafting zone.

In places like the Margate sandbar.... it is not a NRZ.


Woodsy

Clearly you dont anchor at West Alton or Paugas bay on the weekend, boats are stuffed in like people on the "T"

If someone cannonballs into the water every boat bobs from the splash ;-)

My math may be wrong, but 2.5 boats, no chance,,,

LOVE this picture of the DIVE at Braun, fits rignt in at Braun, clearly a mistake to park it at West Alton or Paugas.

[Woodsy]

Your math is absolutely wrong... You cannot be mad at the Dive for other peoples illegal behavior. If you want to be a realist and say this behavior is what people do, that fine. But legally the Dive takes up 2 large boats worth of space on any given sandbar.

Unfortunately, that pic (and my boat is in that pic) was taken on the 4th of July a couple years ago and shows a whole lot of illegal rafting in Braun Bay. This is nothing new.

It because of this kind of rafting behavior, that when I get to (insert name here) sandbar, I take pictures.... so that when people anchor too close, I have my proof (for a judge) that I was there obeying the law, and that I am in no way responsible for other peoples behavior. This is also how I know how the NHMP measure distance between boats.

Woodsy

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Your math is absolutely wrong... You cannot be mad at the Dive for other peoples illegal behavior. If you want to be a realist and say this behavior is what people do, that fine. But legally the Dive takes up 2 large boats worth of space on any given sandbar.

Unfortunately, that pic (and my boat is in that pic) was taken on the 4th of July a couple years ago and shows a whole lot of illegal rafting in Braun Bay. This is nothing new.

It because of this kind of rafting behavior, that when I get to (insert name here) sandbar, I take pictures.... so that when people anchor too close, I have my proof (for a judge) that I was there obeying the law, and that I am in no way responsible for other peoples behavior. This is also how I know how the NHMP measure distance between boats.

Woodsy

A picture is worth a thousand words, this is all too common on Winnipesaukee Sandbars.

At this point I NEVER go out on the water on Saturdays during the season, Its just way too busy for me and not at all fun.

As for the Dive at West Alton, last time I saw it there is was a total nightmare, just way too busy to have something like that there on a busy day. And the Paugas sandbar is even tighter.

I dont object to the Dive cruising the lake, or even rotating locations, but parking regularly at a single spot and monopolizing it is not going to make many people happy and they already have enough problems with acceptance.

Maybe they could park some distance from the sandbar (not in the most preferred shallow water) so as to not impact the recreational boaters? Wouldnt that be the best compromise???

[John Mercier]

True. But lets surmise that law enforcement really put their foot down - which is the reason that you take the pictures.
What would you guess the number of boats in that area to be as a percentage of what is seen in the picture?

That reduces the overall possible clientele of the Dive, and may make the area less likely to receive a ''visit'' from them.

The business advantage that it employs it it can bring the product to the customers, it doesn't have to wait around for the customer like a land-based operation.

It is a little different in that the product is more adult-orientated and service is on the water; but not largely different that the ice cream trucks that use to frequent the local beaches parking lots when I was a child.

Obviously the beaches didn't spring up overnight, everyone knew how far their property was from the beach, but still property owner issues over being public or private. The ice cream truck never frequented the private beaches as they had their own snack bar.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Clearly you dont anchor at West Alton or Paugas bay on the weekend, boats are stuffed in like people on the "T"

If someone cannonballs into the water every boat bobs from the splash ;-)

My math may be wrong, but 2.5 boats, no chance,,,

LOVE this picture of the DIVE at Braun, fits rignt in at Braun, clearly a mistake to park it at West Alton or Paugas.

Reminds of the scene in Ozarks, where the preacher is handing out bibles with drugs in them at Sunday mass on the water.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Reminds of the scene in Ozarks, where the preacher is handing out bibles with drugs in them at Sunday mass on the water.

Kinda insane.

Not sure how this is fun for anyone, but thats their business as I have ZERO intention of participating in that mess.

Hard to believe the Dive is only 20' x 60' as it looks huge everytime I see it;

[Phantom]

Wonder when the bashing will end and we can just move on .............

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Wonder when the bashing will end and we can just move on .............

Well if your really displeased by the thread and want it to end, you could always start a new thread of some subject on a positive note and not add to this one.

Just a thought,,,

For example; where if anywhere can one find alcohol free gasoline on the lake?

Or, why dont more boat makers offer closed bow boats (even Chris Craft has abandoned them and turned the Launch series into bow riders)

Or possibly how nickle plated Colt SAA's make the best open carry guns (oh sorry, maybe not this one,,,)

Well you get the idea

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Wonder when the bashing will end and we can just move on .............

You could easily move on if it bothers you that much?

[wentworthwhitbreadIII]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Kinda insane.

Not sure how this is fun for anyone, but thats their business as I have ZERO intention of participating in that mess.

Hard to believe the Dive is only 20' x 60' as it looks huge everytime I see it;

Crowded sandbars and The Dive add great ambiance to Lake Winnipesaukee. It's what Squam aspires to be someday. Anyone that does not want to raft and get drunk while wading in the urine of others just needs to get a life. #sandbarlife

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by wentworthwhitbreadIII

Crowded sandbars and The Dive add great ambiance to Lake Winnipesaukee. It's what Squam aspires to be someday. Anyone that does not want to raft and get drunk while wading in the urine of others just needs to get a life. #sandbarlife

Well after spending the day yesterday at Wolfboro, around Melody - Keniston - Barndoor islands, the West Alton sandbar and Paugas Bay, I have to say we had a good day.

Watching the spectrum of boating skills displayed at the Wolfboro docks reassured me that I am correct about paddle boarders keeping back some distance. (and maybe even other boaters!) Some people got their boats on without any problem, some couldnt do it all and gave up, some only were able to dock with the help of multiple people on the dock helping, and a few were way too confident and cocky and stuffed boats in were they should not have and too what appeared like unnecessary and high risk. We had the whole spectrum on Sunday.

Tubing around the islands SE of Wolfboro was perfect, other boaters were well behaved, no reckless nonsense and no probems made for a good time.

West Alton sandbar was actually very quiet for a weekend day. I would not have stopped and anchored if it was not so quiet. No bad actors, no loud music no DIVE,,,

And speaking of the DIVE, it was also not on the sandbar in Paugas, well at least not at lunchtime. We saw it along the shore between the Margate and Christmas Island. It actually blended in very well I almost didnt notice it. If thats its new home I say bravo, but then I dont live there,,, Still, it was way better than at one of the sandbars.

I dont wish them any ill will, I just dont think they should be on the Paugas Bay or West Alton sandbar nor any of the town docks intended for boats. Elsewhere, maybe depends of where, and so far as I'm concerned it can cruise the lake all they want.

[Taz]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Well after spending the day yesterday at Wolfboro, around Melody - Keniston - Barndoor islands, the West Alton sandbar and Paugas Bay, I have to say we had a good day.

Watching the spectrum of boating skills displayed at the Wolfboro docks reassured me that I am correct about paddle boarders keeping back some distance. (and maybe even other boaters!) Some people got their boats on without any problem, some couldnt do it all and gave up, some only were able to dock with the help of multiple people on the dock helping, and a few were way too confident and cocky and stuffed boats in were they should not have and too what appeared like unnecessary and high risk. We had the whole spectrum on Sunday.

Tubing around the islands SE of Wolfboro was perfect, other boaters were well behaved, no reckless nonsense and no probems made for a good time.

West Alton sandbar was actually very quiet for a weekend day. I would not have stopped and anchored if it was not so quiet. No bad actors, no loud music no DIVE,,,

And speaking of the DIVE, it was also not on the sandbar in Paugas, well at least not at lunchtime. We saw it along the shore between the Margate and Christmas Island. It actually blended in very well I almost didnt notice it. If thats its new home I say bravo, but then I dont live there,,, Still, it was way better than at one of the sandbars.

I dont wish them any ill will, I just dont think they should be on the Paugas Bay or West Alton sandbar nor any of the town docks intended for boats. Elsewhere, maybe depends of where, and so far as I'm concerned it can cruise the lake all they want.

I don't think just cruising the lake is sustainable and they can't do cruises anyway because they have no place they are allowed to pick up customers. I don't think doing sandbars is sustainable which was their original business plan. You get July and August to go to sandbars, not enough business and too cold to wade in the water before July and after August. They need a permanent home to tie up to and conduct business. Their one chance was Weirs and that's out now. I don't know anywhere else they can go. I would not be surprised if they are out of business on Winni in a year or two. I don't wish any ill will but I don't see how it's sustainable or worth the effort and aggravation on Winni. It should be in Florida or the Carribean.

[John Mercier]

The sandbars, etc, have a larger issue. Sewage.
We don't take the bath houses at the beaches and pump them into the lakes.

So if ''floating'' at the sandbars becomes too large a water quality issue, that venue could be gone rather quickly.

Beyond that, as this economic cycle wanes, customers are looking to the less expensive option. Pretty hard to beat a cooler with a couple of bags of ice.

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The sandbars, etc, have a larger issue. Sewage.
We don't take the bath houses at the beaches and pump them into the lakes.

So if ''floating'' at the sandbars becomes too large a water quality issue, that venue could be gone rather quickly.

Beyond that, as this economic cycle wanes, customers are looking to the less expensive option. Pretty hard to beat a cooler with a couple of bags of ice.

Two things - first, and I'm in the camp of "hope they do well, but they certainly have a bad business plan and are quick to criticize their critics", meaning I'm not pro-Dive or anti-Dive ..... one thing you have to give to them, their clientele have a bathroom that has a holding tank that is properly pumped out when back at a dock. So if anything they help reduce the waste at the sandbars a bit, certainly do not add to it.

Second, on your last comment, I don't agree. Yes, anyone can go cheaper with a cooler, but Winni isn't about cheap, there are a ton of people that are willing, able, and anxious to pay $9 for a drink and I don't think they are going away in an economic cycle. Winnipesaukee is relatively immune from cycles, the wealth of the people at those sandbars is above John Q. Public that shifts to buying mac and cheese during economic downturns.

[John Mercier]

I didn't state they caused the sewage problem... just that ''floating'' may be restricted at all sandbars because of it.

And no... they really do not have more money than John Q Public.
You may think they do, but they really don't.

[LikeLakes]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I didn't state they caused the sewage problem... just that ''floating'' may be restricted at all sandbars because of it.

And no... they really do not have more money than John Q Public.
You may think they do, but they really don't.

John, I didn't mean to imply you said they cause sewage problems, sorry about that. I just meant that if they show up at a sandbar it may be that they slightly reduce the problem.

On the money (wealth) part of it ... do you seriously think that lakefront and power boat owners on Winnipesaukee are not a wealthier group than the average citizen?

[Descant]

As I read it, "John Mercier" is pretty definitive in his statements. I disagree with some, but have no reason, i.e. Forum history, to give him the credibility he presumes, or to deny credibility. A little history or a more expansive profile would help. For example, posting about island services as a non-islander diminished his credibility on other issues. Obviously, anybody can post on anything, but I personally look at credentials from posters on some issues that deal with more closed issues. That's why, when posters look for help, I always want to know "Where are you?"

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Yes I have seen it at West Alton and your 4 - 5 boat estimate is way off, its huge.

Are you talking about 4 - 5 35' boats or 20' boats???

It probably displaces more than double your 4 - 5 boats estimate just around the parameter, let alone the actual footprint of its structure.

In a place like Braun it would have minimal impact, but somewhere like West Alton or ever worse the Paugas sandbar, its overwhelming!

Obviously it is not off. Take a look at the photo!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Obviously it is not off. Take a look at the photo!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Well looking at "that" picture it looks like you could easily fit 4 - 5 more boats just around the outside of the Dive where no one is anchored.

Guess it depends on of you are look at 20' bowriders or 37' cruisers

[Woodsy]

XCR....


If you look at the picture... the Dive is the ONLY one legally anchored!

Woodsy