Snorkeling, swimming, scuba diving

wildwoodfam · 07-23-2006, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Excellent topic - inconsiderate captains of huge cruisers. These people have absolutely no clue as to the size of their wakes. 2 weeks ago one of the biggest Carvers I have seen came plowing by and left an enourmous wake in its path. The waves came over my docks and totally trashed my docks, equipment I had on the docks and also destroyed the shorefront and beach. I chased the captain down and confronted him about his actions.

Ahhh - but did you take down his reg numbers and report him to the MP so that they could do one of their many jobs and follow-up with this skipper who indeed would be and could be and should be held responsible for any real damage to your property his boat caused.

Where is the outrage from the Wetlands Bureau?

Did you contact the Wetlands Bureau to notify them of the destruction and who caused it? How can there be outrage unless they are notified.

These boats are doing more shoreline damage than nature could ever think of doing? Wetlands won't let a property owner even move a pebble on their own shorefront, but one cruiser going by can trash the shorefront that Wetlands is commissioned to protect. Something has to be done. I can never remember the lake being at normal level and having cruiser waves come up over the docks! Marine Patrol should be focusing on more important issues than bothering a woman snorkeling in front of her house. Gimme a break!

Well the Marine Patrol was certainly correct in speaking to the snorkler - and agreed they should also handle your situation - both are in their jurisdiction and both deserve to be addressed by the MP as the lake safety agents. My questions are written under the assumption that you never contacted any of the appropriate agencies to notify them of what this Carver and its skipper did to you. If you did notify them - please let us know their response....if you didn't notify them - well - then you know my next point.

Airwaves · 07-23-2006, 02:53 PM

kjbathe wrote:

Quote:

Or perhaps you'd like to contribute some excess wealth and starting funding full-time MP positions to attract and retain the level of safety and enforcement professional that $15 can't get.

Or perhaps the STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE could actually fund the department!
As my post on the Foster's article points out, MP has a $3.5 Million budget, all of it comes from boater registration and a portion of the FEDERAL (not state) gas tax. The state is not stepping up to the plate on this one!

Little Bear · 07-23-2006, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildwoodfam

Well the Marine Patrol was certainly correct in speaking to the snorkler - and agreed they should also handle your situation - both are in their jurisdiction and both deserve to be addressed by the MP as the lake safety agents. My questions are written under the assumption that you never contacted any of the appropriate agencies to notify them of what this Carver and its skipper did to you. If you did notify them - please let us know their response....if you didn't notify them - well - then you know my next point.

Yes & yes. Have also started a video journal of these incidents for future action. Nobody has a right to cause damage to another's property - period.

Winni · 07-23-2006, 06:07 PM

kjbathe and Grant:

I do agree with you, but I have a problem with a lake where it isn't safe to just swim off my dock. I don't ever go more than about 20 - 25' from shore, but I'm not even sure that's safe now. That is a very, very sad statement about what this lake has become.

That's not the MP's fault; it's everyone's fault who doesn't use courtesy and care in their water activities. I'm scared to death I'm going to get smacked by one of those idiot jet skiers in our neighborhood someday. But, you can't enforce courtesy and thoughtfulness. All you can do is ask that each and every one of you think about what you are doing as you use the lake and pass that request on to everyone you know.

Airwaves:
Whatever makes you think NH is going to fund MPs when they won't even fund Education??? Just ask any teacher you know why they work in NH; the answer will NOT be because they pay well (and don't give me any of that business about their hours 'cause I will be all over you!) Worst case: substitute teachers: lucky to get $60 gross pay per day; do work 8 hour days whether you want to believe it or not; must have current certification which means at least a B.S., more often an additional M.S. or M.Ed., plus pay for their own 75 hours of recertification every 3 years.

MPs, teachers, police, firemen/women, EMTs, etc. do not do what they do for the dollars. We all know they should all be paid a lot more, but you know what that would do to your property taxes. Many of you in this forum have lake property, so if we tried to be fair about paying these folks, who, in my opinion should be paid more than all the CEO/Enron-types and movie stars in Hollywood, would you actually be willing to put out the enormous amount of cash it would take?

Then, this brings us to the subject of broad based taxes. Anyone want to open that can of worms?

WildWoodFarm: Clearly you aren't familiar with how things work on the Big Lake. Here's how it goes: Violator zips by at 80 mph, or jet ski does a wheelie at the end of your dock, or big boat makes big wakes and does damage. Whatever...the point is you call the MP and they say, "Did you get the hull id?" Now, in all these cases, and I would say in about 99% of violations similar to these, including the ridiculous 150' rule, this is totally impossible. Even if you do, you must then be able to describe not only the boat but also the driver! Who is anyone kidding? "Reporting" a problem is a task in futility. The only time the violators are ever caught are when the MPs are actually there to see it happen AND the violators do not know the MPs are there. This IS the reality of the situation.

Saugus Boater: If you don't like the forum, then why do you bother reading it? As I see it, the forum is a good wholesome medium for the exchange of ideas. Some really great things happen on these forums (see for example the one on Pepper losing her hair!). As they say, "If you don't like the show, change the channel!" It's just that easy on a computer too.

The bottom line is: The only people whose behavior you are ever going to change is your own. We can try to influence others by our words and deeds, but the changing must be done by oneself.

wildwoodfam · 07-23-2006, 07:29 PM

WildWoodFarm: Clearly you aren't familiar with how things work on the Big Lake.

Actually very familiar - and have owned lake front property as well as access properties...so yeah I do know how things "work" on the lake.

Here's how it goes: Violator zips by at 80 mph, At 80 MPH there would be little wake - because the boat would be on planeor jet ski does a wheelie at the end of your dock, Actually happened to my family at the Meredith Town Docks - two jerks did "wheelies" and soaked my wife and daughter. I call MP who arrived within about 10 minutes - gave the hull numbers and the zipped off into the bay - AND - got the guys on their jet ski's! or big boat makes big wakes and does damage. Whatever...the point is you call the MP and they say, "Did you get the hull id?"

And clearly in this case the poster DID!!

Now, in all these cases, and I would say in about 99% of violations similar to these, including the ridiculous 150' rule, this is totally impossible. Even if you do, you must then be able to describe not only the boat but also the driver! Who is anyone kidding? "Reporting" a problem is a task in futility. Sorry to hear you have had bad luck in this category - not so for me.The only time the violators are ever caught are when the MPs are actually there to see it happen AND the violators do not know the MPs are there. This IS the reality of the situation.

Not sure which reality you live in - I have reported situations similar to this - phone call to Glendale - and there has been appropriate response by the MP. How do I know the MP followed up? Well on one occassion the disgruntled boater who had violated the 150' rule and washed my dock and all the stuff on it - off - returned the followoing day to apologize and offer to pay for any damages. THATS HOW I KNOW IT WORKS!

Winni · 07-23-2006, 07:53 PM

WildWoodFarm:

"At 80 MPH there would be little wake - because the boat would be on plane"

My point exactly...who can read a hull ID at that speed, much less tell if it's 149' or 151', or id the driver who you can't see in those monsters anyway!

"Actually happened to AND - got the guys on their jet ski's!"
Apparantly our neighborhood isn't as important as your neighborhood, because this happens so often I've given up trying and no one comes no matter how many calls are made. When they do, the jerks deny what they've done and it becomes a "he says, she says" that goes nowhere. I stand by my statements.

"Reporting" a problem is a task in futility. Sorry to hear you have had bad luck in this category - not so for me.The only time the violators are ever caught are when the MPs are actually there to see it happen AND the violators do not know the MPs are there. This IS the reality of the situation."

"Not sure which reality you live in - I have reported situations similar to this - phone call to Glendale - and there has been appropriate response by the MP."

As I said, I stand by my statements. Perhaps Alton Bay isn't as valued as Meredith. My reality is certainly NOT your reality. Your experiences sound like single incidents. Ours are repeated over and over and over and over....well, you get it, but it still does no good to try to get an MP here to do anything about any of it.

And, as I said, I think it has little to do with the paycheck they're given. It's a long hall from Glendale to Alton Bay, and by then the jerks already have the offending boat on their trailers and are on their way home to...no, I won't say it....MMMMM....no, I' won't say it....

Weirs guy · 07-24-2006, 12:03 PM

Maybe if the mp spent its limited resources addressing the root of the problem (reckless boat operators) they wouldn't need to worry about people swimming/snorkeling near their docks.
I understand why the mp did what he did, and I understand the law is there for our saftey (although I don't support the law, just like seatbelt and helmet laws), but I have seen the mp's ignore to many other saftey violations to support them on this one.

ApS · 08-03-2006, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Maybe if the mp spent its limited resources addressing the root of the problem (reckless boat operators) they wouldn't need to worry about people swimming/snorkeling near their docks.
I understand why the mp did what he did, and I understand the law is there for our saftey (although I don't support the law, just like seatbelt and helmet laws), but I have seen the mp's ignore to many other saftey violations to support them on this one.

Your assessment is right on target, however:

Without having a a reckless boater in sight, the MP should be expected to enforce ALL of the laws: They should not be expected to pick and choose which laws to enforce.

Sighting a snorkeler without a flag, they cannot be expected to determine "which wife" belongs to "which dock", either!

Seaplane Pilot · 08-07-2006, 10:42 AM

In my search for other unrelated boating rules, I came across the rule for the use of a dive flag when snorkeling. The flag is only required if snorkeling in "normally traveled, navigable waters". I interpret this as a case where if one were snorkeling around the Witches, no dive flag should be required since the Witches is certainly not a "navigable" area.

Section 270:31
270:31 Scuba Diving and Snorkeling. –
I. Any person engaged in scuba diving on any of the public waters of the state and any person engaged in snorkeling in normally traveled navigable public waters shall have a diver's flag, consisting of a red flag with a diagonal white stripe, displayed indicating that diving activities are in progress. The bottom of said flag shall extend at least 3 feet above the surface of the water, the view of which shall be unobstructed for 360 degrees.
II. Any person engaged in scuba diving or snorkeling shall remain within 75 feet of their dive flag. Boaters shall remain a minimum of 150 feet away from any posted dive flag, unless there are circumstances which prevent the operator from maintaining a minimum of 150 feet, in which case the operator shall maintain headway speed.
III. The commissioner of safety may adopt rules pursuant to RSA 541-A relative to restricting scuba diving between sunset and sunrise.
Source. 1973, 574:1. 1981, 353:13. 1987, 124:6, I(c). 1995, 54:1, eff. July 8, 1995.

Rattlesnake Gal · 08-07-2006, 04:33 PM

If I were to swim near my boat or dock with goggles and swim fins only, would I be required to use a dive flag?

wildwoodfam · 07-23-2006, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Yes & yes. Have also started a video journal of these incidents for future action. Nobody has a right to cause damage to another's property - period.

Let us know how this turns out - how the MP handled the situation, etc...

07-23-2006, 06:07 PM	#4
Winni Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 104 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The Bottom Line kjbathe and Grant: I do agree with you, but I have a problem with a lake where it isn't safe to just swim off my dock. I don't ever go more than about 20 - 25' from shore, but I'm not even sure that's safe now. That is a very, very sad statement about what this lake has become. That's not the MP's fault; it's everyone's fault who doesn't use courtesy and care in their water activities. I'm scared to death I'm going to get smacked by one of those idiot jet skiers in our neighborhood someday. But, you can't enforce courtesy and thoughtfulness. All you can do is ask that each and every one of you think about what you are doing as you use the lake and pass that request on to everyone you know. Airwaves: Whatever makes you think NH is going to fund MPs when they won't even fund Education??? Just ask any teacher you know why they work in NH; the answer will NOT be because they pay well (and don't give me any of that business about their hours 'cause I will be all over you!) Worst case: substitute teachers: lucky to get $60 gross pay per day; do work 8 hour days whether you want to believe it or not; must have current certification which means at least a B.S., more often an additional M.S. or M.Ed., plus pay for their own 75 hours of recertification every 3 years. MPs, teachers, police, firemen/women, EMTs, etc. do not do what they do for the dollars. We all know they should all be paid a lot more, but you know what that would do to your property taxes. Many of you in this forum have lake property, so if we tried to be fair about paying these folks, who, in my opinion should be paid more than all the CEO/Enron-types and movie stars in Hollywood, would you actually be willing to put out the enormous amount of cash it would take? Then, this brings us to the subject of broad based taxes. Anyone want to open that can of worms? WildWoodFarm: Clearly you aren't familiar with how things work on the Big Lake. Here's how it goes: Violator zips by at 80 mph, or jet ski does a wheelie at the end of your dock, or big boat makes big wakes and does damage. Whatever...the point is you call the MP and they say, "Did you get the hull id?" Now, in all these cases, and I would say in about 99% of violations similar to these, including the ridiculous 150' rule, this is totally impossible. Even if you do, you must then be able to describe not only the boat but also the driver! Who is anyone kidding? "Reporting" a problem is a task in futility. The only time the violators are ever caught are when the MPs are actually there to see it happen AND the violators do not know the MPs are there. This IS the reality of the situation. Saugus Boater: If you don't like the forum, then why do you bother reading it? As I see it, the forum is a good wholesome medium for the exchange of ideas. Some really great things happen on these forums (see for example the one on Pepper losing her hair!). As they say, "If you don't like the show, change the channel!" It's just that easy on a computer too. The bottom line is: The only people whose behavior you are ever going to change is your own. We can try to influence others by our words and deeds, but the changing must be done by oneself. __________________ Every time I close the door on reality, it comes in through the windows. -Jennifer Unlimited-

07-23-2006, 07:29 PM	#5
wildwoodfam Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: North Andover, MA & summers up at the BIG lake Posts: 285 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Actually have been around the lake for 30 years... WildWoodFarm: Clearly you aren't familiar with how things work on the Big Lake. Actually very familiar - and have owned lake front property as well as access properties...so yeah I do know how things "work" on the lake. Here's how it goes: Violator zips by at 80 mph, At 80 MPH there would be little wake - because the boat would be on planeor jet ski does a wheelie at the end of your dock, Actually happened to my family at the Meredith Town Docks - two jerks did "wheelies" and soaked my wife and daughter. I call MP who arrived within about 10 minutes - gave the hull numbers and the zipped off into the bay - AND - got the guys on their jet ski's! or big boat makes big wakes and does damage. Whatever...the point is you call the MP and they say, "Did you get the hull id?" And clearly in this case the poster DID!! Now, in all these cases, and I would say in about 99% of violations similar to these, including the ridiculous 150' rule, this is totally impossible. Even if you do, you must then be able to describe not only the boat but also the driver! Who is anyone kidding? "Reporting" a problem is a task in futility. Sorry to hear you have had bad luck in this category - not so for me.The only time the violators are ever caught are when the MPs are actually there to see it happen AND the violators do not know the MPs are there. This IS the reality of the situation. Not sure which reality you live in - I have reported situations similar to this - phone call to Glendale - and there has been appropriate response by the MP. How do I know the MP followed up? Well on one occassion the disgruntled boater who had violated the 150' rule and washed my dock and all the stuff on it - off - returned the followoing day to apologize and offer to pay for any damages. THATS HOW I KNOW IT WORKS! Last edited by wildwoodfam; 07-24-2006 at 10:21 AM.

07-23-2006, 07:53 PM	#6
Winni Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 104 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Stand by my statements WildWoodFarm: "At 80 MPH there would be little wake - because the boat would be on plane" My point exactly...who can read a hull ID at that speed, much less tell if it's 149' or 151', or id the driver who you can't see in those monsters anyway! "Actually happened to AND - got the guys on their jet ski's!" Apparantly our neighborhood isn't as important as your neighborhood, because this happens so often I've given up trying and no one comes no matter how many calls are made. When they do, the jerks deny what they've done and it becomes a "he says, she says" that goes nowhere. I stand by my statements. "Reporting" a problem is a task in futility. Sorry to hear you have had bad luck in this category - not so for me.The only time the violators are ever caught are when the MPs are actually there to see it happen AND the violators do not know the MPs are there. This IS the reality of the situation." "Not sure which reality you live in - I have reported situations similar to this - phone call to Glendale - and there has been appropriate response by the MP." As I said, I stand by my statements. Perhaps Alton Bay isn't as valued as Meredith. My reality is certainly NOT your reality. Your experiences sound like single incidents. Ours are repeated over and over and over and over....well, you get it, but it still does no good to try to get an MP here to do anything about any of it. And, as I said, I think it has little to do with the paycheck they're given. It's a long hall from Glendale to Alton Bay, and by then the jerks already have the offending boat on their trailers and are on their way home to...no, I won't say it....MMMMM....no, I' won't say it.... __________________ Every time I close the door on reality, it comes in through the windows. -Jennifer Unlimited-

07-24-2006, 12:03 PM	#7
Weirs guy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Weirs Beach, NH Posts: 1,067 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Maybe if the mp spent its limited resources addressing the root of the problem (reckless boat operators) they wouldn't need to worry about people swimming/snorkeling near their docks. I understand why the mp did what he did, and I understand the law is there for our saftey (although I don't support the law, just like seatbelt and helmet laws), but I have seen the mp's ignore to many other saftey violations to support them on this one. __________________ Is it bikeweek yet? Now?

08-07-2006, 10:42 AM	#9
Seaplane Pilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,177 Thanks: 664 Thanked 943 Times in 368 Posts	Snorkeling & the use of Dive Flags In my search for other unrelated boating rules, I came across the rule for the use of a dive flag when snorkeling. The flag is only required if snorkeling in "normally traveled, navigable waters". I interpret this as a case where if one were snorkeling around the Witches, no dive flag should be required since the Witches is certainly not a "navigable" area. Section 270:31 270:31 Scuba Diving and Snorkeling. – I. Any person engaged in scuba diving on any of the public waters of the state and any person engaged in snorkeling in normally traveled navigable public waters shall have a diver's flag, consisting of a red flag with a diagonal white stripe, displayed indicating that diving activities are in progress. The bottom of said flag shall extend at least 3 feet above the surface of the water, the view of which shall be unobstructed for 360 degrees. II. Any person engaged in scuba diving or snorkeling shall remain within 75 feet of their dive flag. Boaters shall remain a minimum of 150 feet away from any posted dive flag, unless there are circumstances which prevent the operator from maintaining a minimum of 150 feet, in which case the operator shall maintain headway speed. III. The commissioner of safety may adopt rules pursuant to RSA 541-A relative to restricting scuba diving between sunset and sunrise. Source. 1973, 574:1. 1981, 353:13. 1987, 124:6, I(c). 1995, 54:1, eff. July 8, 1995.

08-07-2006, 04:33 PM	#10
Rattlesnake Gal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Central NH Posts: 5,252 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,451 Thanked 1,349 Times in 475 Posts	Definition of Snorkeling If I were to swim near my boat or dock with goggles and swim fins only, would I be required to use a dive flag?