has market ever been hotter?

joey2665 · 10-09-2020, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

If you're rich--high income, plenty of stock holdings and capital gains income--you're way ahead on the Trump tax cuts.

But if you're kind of in the middle economically, but with high property taxes, it was a mixed bag. This, combined with an increase in the national debt that may be $2 trillion(!), is why most folks did not benefit from them.

Sorry I disagree. Based on the over 250 returns I prepared last year 90% paid a lower tax rate than previous years and mind you most are in New York with a high income and property tax rate.

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FlyingScot · 10-09-2020, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joey2665

Sorry I disagree. Based on the over 250 returns I prepared last year 90% paid a lower tax rate than previous years and mid you most are in New York with a high income and property tax rate.

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I said "mixed bag". As Think points out, he's ahead by a whisker, not enough to care today. I don't know anybody who thinks it's a great plan. My rich friends don't really care about the extra money, my middle band friends got hardly a thing, all recognize we'll be paying the piper later.

joey2665 · 10-09-2020, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I said "mixed bag". As Think points out, he's ahead by a whisker, not enough to care today. I don't know anybody who thinks it's a great plan. My rich friends don't really care about the extra money, my middle band friends got hardly a thing, all recognize we'll be paying the piper later.

Your rich friends don’t care about extra money? I honestly highly doubt that in my experience of of 35 years as a CPA I have always found the richer they are the more they care.

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FlyingScot · 10-09-2020, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joey2665

Your rich friends don’t care about extra money? I honestly highly doubt that in my experience of of 35 years as a CPA I have always found the richer they are the more they care.

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"Extra money" in general is always nice, and I'm sure 100% of your clients want to reduce their bills during the time they are spending with you on their returns. But that's not quite what I'm getting at.

As I'm sure you know, the Trump tax cuts have been a political flop. I think this is because most people believe the individual benefit they received was insignificant to them personally, while it saddled us with a gigantic extra debt.

joey2665 · 10-09-2020, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

"Extra money" in general is always nice, and I'm sure 100% of your clients want to reduce their bills during the time they are spending with you on their returns. But that's not quite what I'm getting at.

As I'm sure you know, the Trump tax cuts have been a political flop. I think this is because most people believe the individual benefit they received was insignificant to them personally, while it saddled us with a gigantic extra debt.

I will agree to disagree on your perception of the tax cuts. Obviously my experience with my clients had been much different than your experience

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Descant · 10-09-2020, 07:14 PM

I agree with Joey, more from an overview than personal experience. BUT, personal experience, the increased standard deduction was a better deal by several thousand dollars than collecting all those receipts and I benefited. Like many, my income has been erratic in the last couple of years, but overall, I have benefited significantly from improved economic conditions. As a retiree, I'm pleased to see the Dow go from 18000 to 28000 in last four years.
This may not be accurate, but it makes me worry very little: If I earn $100,000 and have $25,000 in debt, that is acceptable. If I increase my debt by $3 trillion, but I increase the GDP by $4X, that may still be acceptable. (National) Debt is only significant as it relates to income. A stand alone number means little to me.

FlyingScot · 10-10-2020, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Descant

(National) Debt is only significant as it relates to income. A stand alone number means little to me.

Good point! Unfortunately, national debt as a percent of GDP is also climbing, and it's expected to go much higher. Some said that these tax cuts would pay for themselves, but that has not happened

Descant · 10-10-2020, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Good point! Unfortunately, national debt as a percent of GDP is also climbing, and it's expected to go much higher. Some said that these tax cuts would pay for themselves, but that has not happened

It's a slow process. If we did not ave the Covid interruption, I think the analysis would be more what was expected when the cuts were implemented. Any further comment would border on political, so , 'nuff said.

FlyingScot · 10-10-2020, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Descant

It's a slow process. If we did not ave the Covid interruption, I think the analysis would be more what was expected when the cuts were implemented. Any further comment would border on political, so , 'nuff said.

I wish you'd look at the numbers you directed the rest of us to check. In 2016, the year before the tax cut, the deficit was 3.1% of GDP. In 2017 we went to 3.4%. In 2018, 3.8%. In 2019, 4.6%. We were expected to be 4.8% before COVID-19 hit. So basically our ratio climb 55% (4.8/3.1) pre COVID-19.

I used annual deficit instead of total debt because it's the current budget that we have responsibility for, but the total debt to GDP numbers show exactly the same thing.

Descant · 10-10-2020, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I wish you'd look at the numbers you directed the rest of us to check. In 2016, the year before the tax cut, the deficit was 3.1% of GDP. In 2017 we went to 3.4%. In 2018, 3.8%. In 2019, 4.6%. We were expected to be 4.8% before COVID-19 hit. So basically our ratio climb 55% (4.8/3.1) pre COVID-19.

I used annual deficit instead of total debt because it's the current budget that we have responsibility for, but the total debt to GDP numbers show exactly the same thing.

Thanks for that info. Probalbly clsoer to accurate than my guesstimate. From my perspective, I am so much better off this year than I was in 2015, facts are hard to accept.
Apologies, but political statement follows: I'm supporting the party who will leave me alone.

thinkxingu · 10-11-2020, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Descant

Thanks for that info. Probalbly clsoer to accurate than my guesstimate. From my perspective, I am so much better off this year than I was in 2015, facts are hard to accept.
Apologies, but political statement follows: I'm supporting the party who will leave me alone.

I've mentioned this before, but I can't help but think this forum has a sizeable amount of sample and confirmation bias. The most active posters, including myself, are people who are doing well in general. We own boats, jetskis, and other watercraft—toys typically purchased after needs are taken care of—and many own second homes. Quite a few here own multiple of both.

That's not the American norm at all. And, in less than ten years—as 06JuicedGTO recently echoed—that dream for many has sailed.

For the sizeable portion of America—my children included—it will undoubtedly be harder to achieve what we have achieved without a systemic change or a leg-up from family. I would never have been able to be where I am in today's system.

I'm voting for the party that lends a hand to those sinking rather than watch them drown, because I was a struggling swimmer once myself.

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10-09-2020, 07:14 PM	#6
Descant Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Merrimack and Welch Island Posts: 4,378 Thanks: 1,353 Thanked 1,628 Times in 1,060 Posts	Agree with Joey I agree with Joey, more from an overview than personal experience. BUT, personal experience, the increased standard deduction was a better deal by several thousand dollars than collecting all those receipts and I benefited. Like many, my income has been erratic in the last couple of years, but overall, I have benefited significantly from improved economic conditions. As a retiree, I'm pleased to see the Dow go from 18000 to 28000 in last four years. This may not be accurate, but it makes me worry very little: If I earn $100,000 and have $25,000 in debt, that is acceptable. If I increase my debt by $3 trillion, but I increase the GDP by $4X, that may still be acceptable. (National) Debt is only significant as it relates to income. A stand alone number means little to me.

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