Mask use in grocery stores

[Pam]

It seems like a smaller percentage of people are wearing masks in the Meredith Hannaford. At one point, it seemed that most everyone was, but recently I'd guess maybe only 70% of people are wearing one, and even the guy at the fish counter wasn't wearing one when he waited on me. It was under his chin.

From what I've read, mask wearing in enclosed public spaces can go a long, long way towards controlling this disease, but only if everyone complies. I hate wearing a mask, but for the short time I'm in the store, it's tolerable, and I feel more secure when everyone's covered up.

People can choose for themselves how much they want to go into public, but grocery shopping is a necessity. I see people on the Forum asking why driving cars isn't banned, etc., because of the high death numbers. Well, you do have some control over driving your car. You don't have control over a contagious disease, especially when other people have decided not to care about public health. After the pain and suffering of the lockdown, it worries me that people may let this disease get out of hand again because they don't like wearing a mask. Especially as more people pour into town. (And I realize that some people can't wear one, but they are definitely in the minority).

[Hillcountry]

It's simply that people are getting tired of the restrictive nature of this, the first flu virus that the government has deemed to be a killer (as most viruses are in some way shape or form). Never in the history of the USA has our government (state and federal) forced its people to cower in fear of something they know nothing about. Just the fact that their "restrictions" and facts about the chinese virus change almost daily, is cause to a large part of the population to question their motives.
It's your choice to use a mask and another's choice not to.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Pam

It seems like a smaller percentage of people are wearing masks in the Meredith Hannaford. At one point, it seemed that most everyone was, but recently I'd guess maybe only 70% of people are wearing one, and even the guy at the fish counter wasn't wearing one when he waited on me. It was under his chin.

From what I've read, mask wearing in enclosed public spaces can go a long, long way towards controlling this disease, but only if everyone complies. I hate wearing a mask, but for the short time I'm in the store, it's tolerable, and I feel more secure when everyone's covered up.

People can choose for themselves how much they want to go into public, but grocery shopping is a necessity. I see people on the Forum asking why driving cars isn't banned, etc., because of the high death numbers. Well, you do have some control over driving your car. You don't have control over a contagious disease, especially when other people have decided not to care about public health. After the pain and suffering of the lockdown, it worries me that people may let this disease get out of hand again because they don't like wearing a mask. Especially as more people pour into town. (And I realize that some people can't wear one, but they are definitely in the minority).

I have never worn a mask in a grocery store or anywhere else for that matter, except when I go into my office in Boston and when I've gone to the dentist and doctor because I have to. It is all nonsense. Prior to the so-called pandemic, I was respectful of other people. Nothing has changed. Generally speaking, I don't invade spaces, and try real hard not to sneeze, cough, breath, etc. on other people when in public. You are worried about masks being worn. Are you as worried about other people picking up and replacing items that you eventually touch? Are you concerned about the countless people who have touched all of the items in the store just to get them on the shelf?

I prefer to stick to Dr. Fraud's first recommendation - that masks are ineffective. You are feeding into and believing the hysteria generated by the media and social media. However, if you are scared and anxious, I recommend that you wear a mask to give you the feeling that you are being safe. As Hill stated, the rest of us are sick of the restrictions. Enough is enough. We have done our share. Let's get back to normalcy ASAP. Disappointingly, this will be impossible since the so-called pandemic has become a political issue. CNN reports that Chinese coronavirus cases are spiking in Georgia, Florida and Texas. Fake news. We learned that fighting the so-called pandemic is a joke when rioting and looting is encouraged.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Major

I have never worn a mask in a grocery store or anywhere else for that matter, except when I go into my office in Boston and when I've gone to the dentist and doctor because I have to. It is all nonsense. Prior to the so-called pandemic, I was respectful of other people. Nothing has changed. Generally speaking, I don't invade spaces, and try real hard not to sneeze, cough, breath, etc. on other people when in public. You are worried about masks being worn. Are you as worried about other people picking up and replacing items that you eventually touch? Are you concerned about the countless people who have touched all of the items in the store just to get them on the shelf?

I prefer to stick to Dr. Fraud's first recommendation - that masks are ineffective. You are feeding into and believing the hysteria generated by the media and social media. However, if you are scared and anxious, I recommend that you wear a mask to give you the feeling that you are being safe. As Hill stated, the rest of us are sick of the restrictions. Enough is enough. We have done our share. Let's get back to normalcy ASAP. Disappointingly, this will be impossible since the so-called pandemic has become a political issue. CNN reports that Chinese coronavirus cases are spiking in Georgia, Florida and Texas. Fake news. We learned that fighting the so-called pandemic is a joke when rioting and looting is encouraged.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, to decided that the spikes being see around the country, in states where they are lifting restrictions is "fake news" is not true. Now where the news is likely to embellish a bit, is just how bad is the resurgence, compared to the initial onset. Those numbers have not be presented. I am expecting to see an up tic in number in Mass. Starting next week. Now when will I get concerned. I am not sure. Currently I am not concerned, I knew that as businesses opened back up, and people got out and about, another spike was going to be natural.

[Major]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

While I agree with most of what you are saying, to decided that the spikes being see around the country, in states where they are lifting restrictions is "fake news" is not true. Now where the news is likely to embellish a bit, is just how bad is the resurgence, compared to the initial onset. Those numbers have not be presented. I am expecting to see an up tic in number in Mass. Starting next week. Now when will I get concerned. I am not sure. Currently I am not concerned, I knew that as businesses opened back up, and people got out and about, another spike was going to be natural.

The reason why they are high is that we are testing more than ever, so naturally new cases will be reported. That aspect is never reported, thus, my characterization as "fake news."

[AC2717]

not to mention that just the mere interaction of people causes colds and the like to spread all which have the same symptoms.

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by Major

CNN reports that Chinese coronavirus cases are spiking in Georgia, Florida and Texas. Fake news.

Not just CNN.

Fox news weighs in on the surge: https://www.foxnews.com/health/flori...onavirus-cases

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Was in Hanford (Gilford) this morning and I'd say 95% mask usage (myself included).

[Pam]

Originally Posted by Major

I have never worn a mask in a grocery store or anywhere else for that matter, except when I go into my office in Boston and when I've gone to the dentist and doctor because I have to. It is all nonsense. Prior to the so-called pandemic, I was respectful of other people. Nothing has changed. Generally speaking, I don't invade spaces, and try real hard not to sneeze, cough, breath, etc. on other people when in public. You are worried about masks being worn. Are you as worried about other people picking up and replacing items that you eventually touch? Are you concerned about the countless people who have touched all of the items in the store just to get them on the shelf?

I prefer to stick to Dr. Fraud's first recommendation - that masks are ineffective. You are feeding into and believing the hysteria generated by the media and social media. However, if you are scared and anxious, I recommend that you wear a mask to give you the feeling that you are being safe. As Hill stated, the rest of us are sick of the restrictions. Enough is enough. We have done our share. Let's get back to normalcy ASAP. Disappointingly, this will be impossible since the so-called pandemic has become a political issue. CNN reports that Chinese coronavirus cases are spiking in Georgia, Florida and Texas. Fake news. We learned that fighting the so-called pandemic is a joke when rioting and looting is encouraged.

You are correct that a lot isn't known about this disease. The reason that the original recommendation was not to wear masks was two fold: masks were needed for healthcare workers, and originally, it was not known that the virus was spread through aerosol transmission. It's understandable that you're sick of the restrictions. Who isn't? But being sick of something doesn't give people the right to put other people at risk. Maybe you're right, and all this caution is for nothing. But is that really your decision to make in public spaces at this point in time, when the disease is showing a clear comeback in some parts of this country (based on hospitalizations and not just number of positive cases)? I would say no. I would say that's irresponsible. But obviously you're free to do what you want. Here's an article from Science Daily about the effectiveness of masks. I expect you think it's fake news, but for what it's worth: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0612172200.htm

[garysanfran]

Usually proceeding on the side of caution is good advice...Why noy here?

[Major]

Originally Posted by Pam

You are correct that a lot isn't known about this disease. The reason that the original recommendation was not to wear masks was two fold: masks were needed for healthcare workers, and originally, it was not known that the virus was spread through aerosol transmission. It's understandable that you're sick of the restrictions. Who isn't? But being sick of something doesn't give people the right to put other people at risk. Maybe you're right, and all this caution is for nothing. But is that really your decision to make in public spaces at this point in time, when the disease is showing a clear comeback in some parts of this country (based on hospitalizations and not just number of positive cases)? I would say no. I would say that's irresponsible. But obviously you're free to do what you want. Here's an article from Science Daily about the effectiveness of masks. I expect you think it's fake news, but for what it's worth: https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0612172200.htm

We are making this up as we go. At first, we were told that we need to stay home to flatten the curve and not overwhelm healthcare workers. This was supposed to last two weeks. This has turned into a three-month nightmare where far more damage has been caused by destroying businesses and putting people out of work. It is now about control. There is no evidence that our actions have flattened the curve, prevented deaths, etc. In fact, it seems like we got things backwards. We forced healthy people to stay at home and exposed old and compromised people to the virus.

Unless it is a law, it is my decision to make whether to wear a mask, social distance, etc. I haven't worn a mask or social distanced. I've used common sense, and am doing just fine. When my mom came back from Florida, me and my family members have been careful around her since she is compromised. You seem to enjoy being treated like a child. I do not.

The government hacks and politicians making the decisions for us have NO stake in the matter. None of them to the best of my knowledge have missed a paycheck. Dr. Fraud's government organization (NIAID) is guaranteed funding for the next 20+ years. The biggest political whopper (other than "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor" or "if you like your insurance, you can keep your insurance") is that we are all in this together. My son, who has been furloughed since the beginning of this nonsense, has suffered far more than the government hacks and the politicians. Small business owners have suffered far more than government hacks and politicians. And for what?! A failed social experiment, which proves that the American people do not value liberty. I am disgusted by all this.

[Major]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

Usually proceeding on the side of caution is good advice...Why noy here?

Not at the expense of our liberties and the economy. We have completely overreacted to this nonsense.

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by Major

Not at the expense of our liberties and the economy. We have completely overreacted to this nonsense.

You, by choice, chose to be around others who, by choice, don't want to be around you, but have to because THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. And why is your rights more important than mine? I think your macho is dangerous to others...Major!

[Major]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

You, by choice, chose to be around others who, by choice, don't want to be around you, but have to because THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. And why is your rights more important than mine? I think your macho is dangerous to others...Major!

That's your opinion. You believe it's dangerous, I believe it's an overreaction and a farce. There is nothing macho about my behavior. I don't think it's dangerous in any way shape or form for a person under 65 with no underlying conditions. It is nearly statistically impossible to die from the dreaded Chinese coronavirus if you are under 70 and in relatively good health. The SCIENCE supports this view. (The average age of death is 82.) If you are old and/or have an underlying condition, then it is YOUR responsibility to protect yourself. Just as it has always been. Why is it so difficult to wrap our heads around the notion that there may have been a much, much better way to handle this so-called pandemic? Why is it so difficult to understand that perhaps, just perhaps we should have protected those who are the most vulnerable and allow those of us who work and run businesses to continue our daily lives? You make it sound that you come from a view of authority. I hate to tell you that you and no one knows what they are doing, even the so-called experts.

[Hillcountry]

Originally Posted by Major

That's your opinion. You believe it's dangerous, I believe it's an overreaction and a farce. There is nothing macho about my behavior. I don't think it's dangerous in any way shape or form for a person under 65 with no underlying conditions. It is nearly statistically impossible to die from the dreaded Chinese coronavirus if you are under 70 and in relatively good health. The SCIENCE supports this view. (The average age of death is 82.) If you are old and/or have an underlying condition, then it is YOUR responsibility to protect yourself. Just as it has always been. Why is it so difficult to wrap our heads around the notion that there may have been a much, much better way to handle this so-called pandemic? Why is it so difficult to understand that perhaps, just perhaps we should have protected those who are the most vulnerable and allow those of us who work and run businesses to continue our daily lives? You make it sound that you come from a view of authority. I hate to tell you that you and no one knows what they are doing, even the so-called experts.

I am 70 and not compromised by underlying conditions...and I agree wholeheartedly.

[jbolty]

at the risk of further beating a dead horse...

“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask,” Fauci told CBS’s “60 Minutes” on March 8. “When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences—people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.”

Now we know why he told Americans not to wear masks — he was lying.

“Well, the reason for that is that we were concerned the public health community, and many people were saying this, were concerned that it was at a time when personal protective equipment, including the N-95 masks and the surgical masks, were in very short supply,” Fauci told The Street. “And we wanted to make sure that the people, namely the health care workers, who were brave enough to put themselves in a harm way, to take care of people who, you know, were infected with the coronavirus and the danger of them getting infected,” had access to the masks.

The first paragraph explains why I contend the mask routine is pointless. Most people wear them wrong, touch them, touch their face, then their phone, then their wallet and key pad and everything else in sight and then back to their face to take the mask off again. All this aside from the size of a virus compared to the mesh of a paper mask or bandana. Because of all this I believe the virus has spread way more than any one realizes and it has not mattered much.

[exlakesregioner]

because nowadays it's all about me, me me, and to hell with anyone else

[AB_Monterey]

Originally Posted by Major

The reason why they are high is that we are testing more than ever, so naturally new cases will be reported. That aspect is never reported, thus, my characterization as "fake news."

except that it's not just the new cases that are surging, it's the cases that require hospitalizations. That has zip to do with increased testing.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Pam

I hate wearing a mask, but for the short time I'm in the store, it's tolerable, and I feel more secure when everyone's covered up.

It’s just an abject lack of common decency. The mask isn’t for you - it’s for those around you, particularly if you’re pre-symptomatic. I see no reason why masks in stores is not required, if not by the state, then by the businesses. This is not just for the safety of me or other customers, but the employees that are seeing hundreds of customers daily, and it only takes one. These workers are not bringing in big bucks to put themselves out there like this. It’s the LEAST we can do to wear a mask while inside.

Anyone saying this is an invasion on their liberty should go seclude themselves in the woods and forage for food instead of putting others at risk. It’s that simple.

[ishoot308]

I was in Sam’s Club in Concord this afternoon. It was 50/50 mask wearing. Most employees were wearing them but not all...

Lowe’s in Gilford on Monday was also 50/50...

Dan

[jogator1]

For those who are so worried regarding others not wearing masks, why not wear your own properly fitted PPE protecting yourself? The supply chain has vastly improved on PPE and then you can go out in public fully protected. N95 mask, eye protection/face shield, gloves, fluid resistant gown, etc. It would be a bit of an inconvenience but no different than what you are asking of others. This should put you at ease. Then you will not have to worry about your own protection and not be requesting others to give up their individual liberties. Seems pretty simple for a win/win.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Major

CNN reports that Chinese coronavirus cases

Is there any reason why you see the need to continue to use such overtly xenophobic language in your posts? And if you don’t understand how this is xenophobic and racist, maybe you can go ask one of your Asian law partners or employees to explain it to you. That is, unless as I suspect, you don’t have any. So instead, you sit behind a pseudonym on a computer.

I have always valued this website and its forums for useful insight on lake issues. I fully understand this “political” forum will consist of views I don’t agree with. But I don’t understand how this perpetuation of xenophobia can continue to be ignored on this site.

[AB_Monterey]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Is there any reason why you see the need to continue to use such overtly xenophobic language in your posts? And if you don’t understand how this is xenophobic and racist, maybe you can go ask one of your Asian law partners or employees to explain it to you. That is, unless as I suspect, you don’t have any. So instead, you sit behind a pseudonym on a computer.

I have always valued this website and its forums for useful insight on lake issues. I fully understand this “political” forum will consist of views I don’t agree with. But I don’t understand how this perpetuation of xenophobia can continue to be ignored on this site.

For the same reason they use words like scared and fear. It's a silly premise. Do you wear a seat belt because you're scared?

For people who like to call others sheep, they sure do all use the same script.

[LoveLakeLife]

I’m pretty sure Major doesn’t have an irrational fear of Chinese people, and hence is not xenophobic. Since it seems you’re one of those -ist and -ism people, please at least tell us that you understand that China is not a race.


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[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

I’m pretty sure Major doesn’t have an irrational fear of Chinese people, and hence is not xenophobic. Since it seems you’re one of those -ist and -ism people, please at least tell us that you understand that China is not a race.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Since I’m an “-ist” and “-ism” person who also likes the dictionary, from Miriam Webster:

Xenophobia is the fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners, whereas racism has a broader meaning set including "a belief that racial differences produce the inherent superiority of a particular race." Although they are similar, they are different enough that it is possible for one to be both xenophobic and racist.

So, yes, I do understand that China is not a race.

[LoveLakeLife]

Where in any of Major’s posts does he expressly or impliedly indicate either fear or hatred of strangers or foreigners, Chinese or otherwise? Where does he exhibit a belief that any race (N.B. Asian is also not a race) is superior to another?


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[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

Where in any of Major’s posts does he expressly or impliedly indicate either fear or hatred of strangers or foreigners, Chinese or otherwise? Where does he exhibit a belief that any race (N.B. Asian is also not a race) is superior to another?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Please explain to me the purpose of the repeated references to “Chinese coronavirus.” And if you say that is somehow a factual characterization, you are part of the problem.

[LoveLakeLife]

I presume the purpose is accuracy as to its place of origin, as has been the custom of nomenclature for scores of years, e.g. Spanish flu, Hong Kong flu, Asian flu, etc. The fact that you needed that explained to you reveals your way of thinking. We all know that you didn’t really need an explanation. You chose to ascribe a sinister motive to Major’s innocuous geographic designation. That says more about you than it ever could about him. Saying that someone is part of the problem is a sixth grade-level argument, as subsumed within it is a false presumption that there is a problem to begin with. You should be nicer and not infer bad things about people because they have different opinions than you. The problem that you perceive is internal to you, which is your prerogative, but you shouldn’t expect others to fall victim to groupthink.


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[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

I presume the purpose is accuracy as to its place of origin, as has been the custom of nomenclature for scores of years, e.g. Spanish flu, Hong Kong flu, Asian flu, etc. The fact that you needed that explained to you reveals your way of thinking. We all know that you didn’t really need an explanation. You chose to ascribe a sinister motive to Major’s innocuous geographic designation. That says more about you than it ever could about him. Saying that someone is part of the problem is a sixth grade-level argument, as subsumed within it is a false presumption that there is a problem to begin with. You should be nicer and not infer bad things about people because they have different opinions than you. The problem that you perceive is internal to you, which is your prerogative, but you shouldn’t expect others to fall victim to groupthink.


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Agreed!...and anyone who uses the term Lyme Disease must dislike people from Connecticut!

Dan

[ApS]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Please explain to me the purpose of the repeated references to “Chinese coronavirus.” And if you say that is somehow a factual characterization, you are part of the problem.

"Chinese coronavirus" is easier to remember than "severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus" or "SARS-CoV-2" (or the
previous “2019 novel coronavirus”) and the disease it causes.

The World Health Organization has taken the responsibility to name the disease, but there's a huge asteri$k in the naming process.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Is there any reason why you see the need to continue to use such overtly xenophobic language in your posts? And if you don’t understand how this is xenophobic and racist, maybe you can go ask one of your Asian law partners or employees to explain it to you. That is, unless as I suspect, you don’t have any. So instead, you sit behind a pseudonym on a computer.

I have always valued this website and its forums for useful insight on lake issues. I fully understand this “political” forum will consist of views I don’t agree with. But I don’t understand how this perpetuation of xenophobia can continue to be ignored on this site.

I wish there was a “VOMIT” button I could use. Good lord!

[Major]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Is there any reason why you see the need to continue to use such overtly xenophobic language in your posts? And if you don’t understand how this is xenophobic and racist, maybe you can go ask one of your Asian law partners or employees to explain it to you. That is, unless as I suspect, you don’t have any. So instead, you sit behind a pseudonym on a computer.

I have always valued this website and its forums for useful insight on lake issues. I fully understand this “political” forum will consist of views I don’t agree with. But I don’t understand how this perpetuation of xenophobia can continue to be ignored on this site.

There is absolutely nothing racists or xenophobic about labeling the flu the Chinese coronavirus or my personal favorite the Wuhan Bat Flu. My liberal friends have taught me that everything and everyone requires a label. For the record, I am a straight white middle-aged male, the lowest rung of the WOK ladder. I label the flu as such to annoy people like you, who place far more value in words rather than actions.

To answer your question, one of my law partners is from China and we have several employees from China. I will tell you what I have (or in some words) told them. I have no issues whatsoever with any people from any country. My experiences with ex-pats from China is that they are a warm, caring, humble, and smart (very smart for that matter) people, who came to the U.S. to escape communist rule. However, I detest with the hatred of a thousand suns the Chinese communist government. The one thing this so-called pandemic has taught us is that the U.S. should extricate itself from China and any other government who does not value freedom and liberty.

Calling someone a racists shows that you have lost the argument. It shows the shallowness of your character and world views. I actually feel sorry for you.

Peace

[SAMIAM]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Since I’m an “-ist” and “-ism” person who also likes the dictionary, from Miriam Webster:

Xenophobia is the fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners, whereas racism has a broader meaning set including "a belief that racial differences produce the inherent superiority of a particular race." Although they are similar, they are different enough that it is possible for one to be both xenophobic and racist.

So, yes, I do understand that China is not a race.

Don't understand why it's racist to refer to the virus as Chinese.....it came from China.The Asian flu caused several million deaths back in the 50's as well.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

I presume the purpose is accuracy as to its place of origin

You must be right. I must be off my rocker, together with dozens of Asian-American organizations, lawmakers, medical organizations, and even the WHO, that have all decried the use of the term as perpetuating xenophobia. I’m sure it is being used for accuracy, and not at all to stir the pot or be provocative.

The mantra on this forum from many seems to be that we should have empathy for the business owners and workers that have been greatly affected. How about we have some empathy for our Asian-American friends, colleagues, and family, that have been the subject of harassment, and worse, which is only perpetuated by this type of language? But I suspect that many who see no issue with this type of language do not have close friends, colleagues, or family that are Asian (let alone Chinese) that have been directly affected by harassment and worse stemming from blaming the “Chinese” for a pandemic that has no borders.

[Phantom]

I think the bigger point has been missed here-

In MA, it is still "required" to have a mask on in public
In NH, it is not -- simple- live "Free or Die"

HOWEVER - Every major chain store in the country that I know of has issued a Company Policy that REQUIRES employee's to wear masks on the job!

Thus, to Pam's original post - "even the guy at the fish counter wasn't wearing one when he waited on me. It was under his chin" This individual is simply being stubborn & should have been reported to store management (especially in light of the Counter he was working). I am sure the Store Manager would be horrified.

On the other hand, I fully understand that wearing a mask all day is quite irritating -- but the employee should have backed away from the counter & taken a break- not serve a customer should that be his/her rationale.

[FlyingScot]

Here's a great test case that shows the value of masks in a setting that is as close as possible to a lab test--a hair salon with 2 infected stylists and no infected clients. Direct from the heart of Trump Country, it made believers out of skeptics similar to Major:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...lons-missouri/

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Major

To answer your question, one of my law partners is from China and we have several employees from China.

My actual question, Major, is whether you have ever used the term “Chinese coronavirus” with your Chinese partners or employees? Or do you just use the term hiding behind a pseudonym on the internet?

[Major]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

My actual question, Major, is whether you have ever used the term “Chinese coronavirus” with your Chinese partners or employees? Or do you just use the term hiding behind a pseudonym on the internet?

If anything I'm consistent. Yes. There is absolutely no shame in labeling it, as I would the Spanish Flu.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Major

If anything I'm consistent. Yes. There is absolutely no shame in labeling it, as I would the Spanish Flu.

Somehow I doubt that. In any event, you are either completely tone deaf to your Chinese colleagues (who I’m sure praised your choice of term and gave you a high five instead of rolling their eyes in shock behind your back), or, as I suspect is more likely, you don’t actually use the term with them because you are smart enough to know better.

[LoveLakeLife]

We get it, CowTimes, you’re just more virtuous than all of us. You presume that none of us have Asian friends or co-workers so you can feel even better about yourself. Do you have a quota of Asian friends with sufficient proportional representation among Vietnamese, Indian, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Singaporean, Laotian,so that your circle of friends “looks like Asia”? If not, some might call you some type of -ist. Where in any of our posts can you point to a lack of empathy? You seem to read things that aren’t there. You should try to figure out why that is and fix it. As for the WHO and others who decry labeling the virus accurately, you should try to be less of a blind follower just to be in the crowd. People will still like you if you think logically, and not just reflexively jump on the bandwagon no matter how silly and discordant the song.


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[Major]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Somehow I doubt that. In any event, you are either completely tone deaf to your Chinese colleagues (who I’m sure praised your choice of term and gave you a high five instead of rolling their eyes in shock behind your back), or, as I suspect is more likely, you don’t actually use the term with them because you are smart enough to know better.

I usually refer to it as the virus, but on several calls I have called it the Chinese Coronavirus or the Wuhan Bat Flu. People have a sense of humor and appreciate the levity.

Why are we so twisted about common sense words and labels for things? Some of the most unenlightened people I know are all PC about words, yet their actions betray something else. If we've gotten to the point where "Chinese Coronavirus" is offensive then we've lost our bearing as a society. People need to chill.

Under no circumstances is Chinese coronavirus offensive. It is made up by the left to be offended by yet another thing. I refuse to buy into this type of group think.

[Pam]

It's a freaking mask, people, worn for the limited time you're shopping in a public space. It's a sensible precaution that protects others and you against a really crappy, exceedingly contagious disease, which at this point doesn't really have effective treatment, never mind a vaccine.

You can get up in arms about the origins of the disease, your great loss of liberty, blah, blah, blah, but that's a different argument. Old people, compromised people often have no choice but to shop in the grocery store! Duh! Do them a favor, make the gigantic sacrifice, and put on the mask!

If you're right and this is all much ado about nothing, then congrats, you get a gold star and have something to rant about. If you're wrong, then no harm done to the rest of us, hopefully.

[Patofnaud]

Interesting read, even if it is from NBC...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-a...perts-n1165366

[LoveLakeLife]

Cow Times, why are you calling Major a liar? Is it because you just can’t imagine someone having the courage to talk like a normal person? You can’t believe that his Chinese co-workers don’t roam the office listening for words by which to feel offended? Such base nastiness you exude ...


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[Pam]

Originally Posted by jogator1

For those who are so worried regarding others not wearing masks, why not wear your own properly fitted PPE protecting yourself? The supply chain has vastly improved on PPE and then you can go out in public fully protected. N95 mask, eye protection/face shield, gloves, fluid resistant gown, etc. It would be a bit of an inconvenience but no different than what you are asking of others. This should put you at ease. Then you will not have to worry about your own protection and not be requesting others to give up their individual liberties. Seems pretty simple for a win/win.

Are you serious or are you being ironic? You want some people to completely outfit themselves in complete PPE for a trip to the grocery store, so other people don't have to put on a simple face mask, which is somehow a huge violation of their civil liberties??? Wow.

I might also remind people that Boris Johnson was quite cavalier about this disease, and then, according to his public statement, almost died. So you never know who's really vulnerable.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Pam

You can get up in arms about the origins of the disease, your great loss of liberty, blah, blah, blah, but that's a different argument. Old people, compromised people often have no choice but to shop in the grocery store!

And there we have it, me, me, me! Do you own a small business? At any time in your life did you sign the front of a check rather than just the back of it? Did you have your business ripped away from you or lose your job because of this nonsense? Why should my liberties be taken away for a failed social experiment just because people cannot take responsibility for themselves? Old people do have choices, they just don't like them, just like I do not like wearing a mask.

And oh by the way, it has been beaten to death, there is NO evidence that masks help. We were told by Dr. Fraud not to wear them. It is a feel good thing, just like metal detectors in airports. You my friend are the selfish one.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Patofnaud

Interesting read, even if it is from NBC...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-a...perts-n1165366

But Patofnaud, that would [gasp] require us to put ourselves in the shoes of others and look at how things might be perceived from their perspective. That would just be too “virtuous” and “nastiness.”

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by Major

We are making this up as we go. At first, we were told that we need to stay home to flatten the curve and not overwhelm healthcare workers. This was supposed to last two weeks. This has turned into a three-month nightmare where far more damage has been caused by destroying businesses and putting people out of work. It is now about control. There is no evidence that our actions have flattened the curve, prevented deaths, etc. In fact, it seems like we got things backwards. We forced healthy people to stay at home and exposed old and compromised people to the virus.

Unless it is a law, it is my decision to make whether to wear a mask, social distance, etc. I haven't worn a mask or social distanced. I've used common sense, and am doing just fine. When my mom came back from Florida, me and my family members have been careful around her since she is compromised. You seem to enjoy being treated like a child. I do not.

The government hacks and politicians making the decisions for us have NO stake in the matter. None of them to the best of my knowledge have missed a paycheck. Dr. Fraud's government organization (NIAID) is guaranteed funding for the next 20+ years. The biggest political whopper (other than "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor" or "if you like your insurance, you can keep your insurance") is that we are all in this together. My son, who has been furloughed since the beginning of this nonsense, has suffered far more than the government hacks and the politicians. Small business owners have suffered far more than government hacks and politicians. And for what?! A failed social experiment, which proves that the American people do not value liberty. I am disgusted by all this.

Staying at home lasting only two weeks was if quite literally everyone stayed home for 2 weeks. Shutting everything down and not leaving your home for 2 weeks. If everyone did that, it would have shut the spread down. Obviously that could never happen, at least not in this country. You are correct that this is being made up as we go because so little is known about this new virus.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Major

And there we have it, me, me, me! Do you own a small business? At any time in your life did you sign the front of a check rather than just the back of it? Did you have your business ripped away from you or lose your job because of this nonsense? Why should my liberties be taken away for a failed social experiment just because people cannot take responsibility for themselves? Old people do have choices, they just don't like them, just like I do not like wearing a mask.

And oh by the way, it has been beaten to death, there is NO evidence that masks help. We were told by Dr. Fraud not to wear them. It is a feel good thing, just like metal detectors in airports. You my friend are the selfish one.

My three year old has better logic. Fauci said wearing masks don’t protect you. It’s not a respirator mask filtering what comes in as you breath. Masks we are all talking about help prevent YOU from spreading droplets TO OTHERS through coughing and even speaking, and are credited now as one of the best prevention against spread (see article linked above about the salon where the hairdressers had the disease). So who again is being selfish by not wearing a mask?

[LoveLakeLife]

It’s sad that people would be do insecure as to change their choice of words or behavior because of how others claim to perceive those words or conduct. No one can control how others perceive things, and only the weak-minded people would “conform” because they want to be liked by those who despise them.


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[WinnisquamZ]

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[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

It’s sad that people would be do insecure as to change their choice of words or behavior because of how others claim to perceive those words or conduct. No one can control how others perceive things, and only the weak-minded people would “conform” because they want to be liked by those who despise them.


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I think the Civil Rights Movement and much of our society’s social progress over the past several decades would suggest otherwise.

[LoveLakeLife]

“Social progress” is an amorphous term. Some would consider aspects of the decades-long societal changes to be regress. A lot of it has been good, but it doesn’t mean that people should prostrate themselves in self-imposed shame in the process.

The popcorn pic is the best post of the week.


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[Bigstan]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

I think the Civil Rights Movement and much of our society’s social progress over the past several decades would suggest otherwise.

I think the host of people that recently lost their jobs for saying 'all lives matter' would disagree with our 'progress'.

We've lost our way big time with our constant worrying about offending everyone.

Newsflash - it can't be done, someone will always find/create a reason to be offended. The trick is not to let their problem affect you.

[LoveLakeLife]

Agreed. “Offend” in reality is not an active verb. One can’t offend someone. Instead, the listener has to feel offended, which is a choice. It’s the intent of the speaker that matters.


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[Pam]

Originally Posted by Major

And there we have it, me, me, me! Do you own a small business? At any time in your life did you sign the front of a check rather than just the back of it? Did you have your business ripped away from you or lose your job because of this nonsense? Why should my liberties be taken away for a failed social experiment just because people cannot take responsibility for themselves? Old people do have choices, they just don't like them, just like I do not like wearing a mask.

And oh by the way, it has been beaten to death, there is NO evidence that masks help. We were told by Dr. Fraud not to wear them. It is a feel good thing, just like metal detectors in airports. You my friend are the selfish one.

Putting aside my degree of selfishness (pretty selfish, actually) and whether or not I'm a business owner, I actually agree with you.

It's crucial that businesses be able to reopen and thrive. We cannot have another lockdown. However, if the disease gets out of hand again, restaurants and other businesses will suffer, even if they stay open. A lot of people won't want to go out for dinner if they don't feel safe. If workers become sick, there will be major disruption.

My point is that something simple, like the use of face masks in spaces where there are a lot of people, ie the grocery stores, etc. might be a simple way of preventing a resurgence to some degree. It can't really hurt, right?

The Lakes Region is not an isolated rural community, particularly in the upcoming months when the population surges. Massachusetts is still reporting a couple of hundred new cases every day, and has had a total of 100,000+
confirmed cases with 7000+ deaths. If you doubt those numbers, you weren't seeing the Sunday Globe obituary section which ran to almost 30 pages for several weeks, something shocking that I had never seen before.

My point in my posts is not to get into the politicization of this disease, but to point out that a small amount of vigilance might do us all a lot of good. That's it.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Pam

Putting aside my degree of selfishness (pretty selfish, actually) and whether or not I'm a business owner, I actually agree with you.

It's crucial that businesses be able to reopen and thrive. We cannot have another lockdown. However, if the disease gets out of hand again, restaurants and other businesses will suffer, even if they stay open. A lot of people won't want to go out for dinner if they don't feel safe. If workers become sick, there will be major disruption.

My point is that something simple, like the use of face masks in spaces where there are a lot of people, ie the grocery stores, etc. might be a simple way of preventing a resurgence to some degree. It can't really hurt, right?

The Lakes Region is not an isolated rural community, particularly in the upcoming months when the population surges. Massachusetts is still reporting a couple of hundred new cases every day, and has had a total of 100,000+
confirmed cases with 7000+ deaths. If you doubt those numbers, you weren't seeing the Sunday Globe obituary section which ran to almost 30 pages for several weeks, something shocking that I had never seen before.

My point in my posts is not to get into the politicization of this disease, but to point out that a small amount of vigilance might do us all a lot of good. That's it.

Unfortunately the mask is a symbol of the politicalization (if that’s a word) of the issue. We have had lots and lots of pandemics and communicable diseases over the past 100 years. Prior to this so-called pandemic we have never (1) quarantined healthy people and (2) been forced to wear masks. Those of us who are skeptical of our political leaders and government in general view this as an opportunity for the government to control the masses. In all honesty, humans are made to live in an unclean world and by doing all this we are going against Mother Nature.


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[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by Major

In all honesty, humans are made to live in an unclean world and by doing all this we are going against Mother Nature.

Good grief.

Are you seriously arguing that the best way to move forward is to do nothing, to allow the virus to spread across the world unchecked, counting on some form of herd immunity once the last denizen of this planet is infected?

[Cobra1832]

For those not wanting to wear a mask in public places and complain about how small businesses are being hurt, you realize by not wearing a mask you are hurting the small businesses yourself. If people know masks aren’t being worn in establishments they are more likely to stay away, exactly what you don’t want if you support small businesses.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Major

In all honesty, humans are made to live in an unclean world and by doing all this we are going against Mother Nature.


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That’s your honest truth? So I take it you never go to the doctor, refuse basic medical procedures, and didn’t vaccinate your kids against polio or any number of other viruses that are part of Mother Nature?

The fact that you equate a mask with politicization of a pandemic as a basis to not undertake a simple step to protect fellow human beings is beyond the pale. I would never wish the virus on anyone, but if you get it, it’s good to know that you will refuse the hospital bed and ventilator and save those for someone who puts their faith in medicine instead - likely the 1-2 persons on average that you would have infected.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Major

Unfortunately the mask is a symbol of the politicalization (if that’s a word) of the issue. We have had lots and lots of pandemics and communicable diseases over the past 100 years. Prior to this so-called pandemic we have never (1) quarantined healthy people and (2) been forced to wear masks. Those of us who are skeptical of our political leaders and government in general view this as an opportunity for the government to control the masses. In all honesty, humans are made to live in an unclean world and by doing all this we are going against Mother Nature.


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Great post Major. Some here will never get it so internet sparring with them will accomplish nothing. History will sort out the truth from hysteria. In the mean time you all do what you feel is appropriate to keep yourself safe and not worry about what others are doing. If you go into a store and someone is not wearing a mask and that makes you feel unsafe simply walk out.

[LoveLakeLife]

CowTimes why do you feel a need to incessantly berate people who disagree with you and who back up their position? Major’s accurate view of the symbolism of the mask is beyond the pale? Who’s pale? Your pale? Your level of self-regard on all things moral is unjustified. Making the logical leap from Majors logical position to concluding that he would refuse a hospital bed is puerile thinking. Did someone teach you to do this, and to think that it would fool people as a grounded argument as opposed to the fallacy that it is? You should think your ideas through before espousing them as if they were Gospel. You do realize that normal Americans don’t think like you, I hope.


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[thebix]

Originally Posted by Major

Prior to this so-called pandemic we have never (1) quarantined healthy people and (2) been forced to wear masks.

An article I just saw (originally published March 27) about the measures taken in 1918-1920 to stem the flu pandemic. Note that the measures taken this year are based on what worked well then, and the success of them then depended on how soon and long they were used, and how too early lifting them sometimes had issues.

"How some cities ‘flattened the curve’ during the 1918 flu pandemic
Social distancing isn’t a new idea—it saved thousands of American lives during the last great pandemic. Here's how it worked."

"The studies reached another important conclusion: That relaxing intervention measures too early could cause an otherwise stabilized city to relapse. St. Louis, for example, was so emboldened by its low death rate that the city lifted restrictions on public gatherings less than two months after the outbreak began. A rash of new cases soon followed. Of the cities that kept interventions in place, none experienced a second wave of high death rates. (See photos that capture a world paused by coronavirus.)"

"In 1918, the studies found, the key to flattening the curve was social distancing. And that likely remains true a century later, in the current battle against coronavirus. “[T]here is an invaluable treasure trove of useful historical data that has only just begun to be used to inform our actions,” Columbia University epidemiologist Stephen S. Morse wrote in an analysis of the data. “The lessons of 1918, if well heeded, might help us to avoid repeating the same history today.”"

"Shortly after health measures were put in place in Philadelphia, a case popped up in St. Louis. Two days later, the city shut down most public gatherings and quarantined victims in their homes. The cases slowed. By the end of the pandemic, between 50 and 100 million people were dead worldwide, including more than 500,000 Americans—but the death rate in St. Louis was less than half of the rate in Philadelphia. The deaths due to the virus were estimated to be about 358 people per 100,000 in St Louis, compared to 748 per 100,000 in Philadelphia during the first six months—the deadliest period—of the pandemic."
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/h...V0H0cSRI5M-JJ4

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by LoveLakeLife

CowTimes why do you feel a need to incessantly berate people who disagree with you and who back up their position? Major’s accurate view of the symbolism of the mask is beyond the pale? Who’s pale? Your pale? Your level of self-regard on all things moral is unjustified. Making the logical leap from Majors logical position to concluding that he would refuse a hospital bed is puerile thinking. Did someone teach you to do this, and to think that it would fool people as a grounded argument as opposed to the fallacy that it is? You should think your ideas through before espousing them as if they were Gospel. You do realize that normal Americans don’t think like you, I hope.


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You’re right, LoveLakeLife, my regard for human life and basic decency in concern for others is self-righteous. Some have made very clear on here that they value finances over public health. And the majority of people that disagree with you have given up on this thread, which has turned into a self-righteous refrain of me-first. My liberty, my finances. Well, how about the lives of others???

I will not apologize for calling a spade a spade. We are talking about wearing a mask, not forced vaccinations or institutionalization for quarantine.

Major seems like a big boy that can (attempt) to defend his facially inconsistent positions. I don’t think he needs you running interference for him.

[LoveLakeLife]

Whose not who’s. Sorry.


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[Bigstan]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

But Patofnaud, that would [gasp] require us to put ourselves in the shoes of others and look at how things might be perceived from their perspective. That would just be too “virtuous” and “nastiness.”

I love that you say this but refuse to consider another perspective (shared by many, many of us) that doesn't match your own. There's a word for that I think.

[WinnisquamZ]

Proverbs 17:27; A wise man will be of few words: A fool may gain the reputation of being wise if he have but wit enough to hold his tongue


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[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Bigstan

I love that you say this but refuse to consider another perspective (shared by many, many of us) that doesn't match your own. There's a word for that I think.

How about cost-benefit? If wearing a mask is useless, what’s the harm. On the other hand, if as now generally excepted in the medical community, wearing masks help limit the spread, there is obvious benefit. The problem is that those who don’t wear masks will never know if or who they spread the virus to, and whether or not those people got severely ill or even die.

Sometimes you cannot obviate fundamental truths with “difference of views.” We’re not talking about differences of opinion on the appropriate size of government, or bottoms up economics. These individual choices have actual consequences on others.

You can rest easy, I am done with this thread. You can go back to your regularly scheduled Fox News programming for your talking points.

[Bigstan]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

You can rest easy, I am done with this thread. You can go back to your regularly scheduled Fox News programming for your talking points.

And there we are. If we don't agree with you then we must be mindless red hat wearing fools who rely on Fox news to know what their opinion should be?

This is how divisiveness happens folks, you agree with us or (insert your favorite here, Fox news works). Shocking the direction it's coming from

Just agree that you won't tolerate an alternate view on this, as that's the truth and there's nothing wrong with being honest.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Major

The reason why they are high is that we are testing more than ever, so naturally new cases will be reported. That aspect is never reported, thus, my characterization as "fake news."

So why are states like NY seeing fewer cases with more testing than states like Florida, who had a record high 3207 new cases yesterday?


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[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by Major

Unfortunately the mask is a symbol of the politicalization (if that’s a word) of the issue. We have had lots and lots of pandemics and communicable diseases over the past 100 years. Prior to this so-called pandemic we have never (1) quarantined healthy people and (2) been forced to wear masks. Those of us who are skeptical of our political leaders and government in general view this as an opportunity for the government to control the masses. In all honesty, humans are made to live in an unclean world and by doing all this we are going against Mother Nature.


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The modern surgical mask did not even come into existence until the 1960’s....so uh....no, during pandemics of 100 years ago no one wore a mask. Please let us not base our public health decisions on what we did or didn’t do 100 years ago!

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by Hillcountry

chinese virus . [/I]

We know where that term came from. Right?

1918
"It is estimated that about 500 million people or one-third of the world’s population became infected with this virus. The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States. Mortality was high in people younger than 5 years old, 20-40 years old, and 65 years and older. The high mortality in healthy people, including those in the 20-40 year age group, was a unique feature of this pandemic."

LINK

COVID-19 is no different then the ordinary flu. Right?

[Major]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

The modern surgical mask did not even come into existence until the 1960’s....so uh....no, during pandemics of 100 years ago no one wore a mask. Please let us not base our public health decisions on what we did or didn’t do 100 years ago!

What did we do in 1969 -- Hong Kong Flu?

What did we do in 2003 -- SARS?

What did we do in 2009 -- H1N1 a/k/a Swine Flu?

The point is we've had many, many epidemics since 1918, and what we are doing right now is unprecedented.

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by Major

What did we do in 1969 -- Hong Kong Flu?

What did we do in 2003 -- SARS?

What did we do in 2009 -- H1N1 a/k/a Swine Flu?

The point is we've had many, many epidemics since 1918, and what we are doing right now is unprecedented.

8,100 people worldwide contracted SARS not 8.5 million and still growing. COVID is proving to be far more contagious than anything we have dealt with in modern history. But hey, do what you want. Best of luck!

[TheRoBoat]

Our hospitalizations have started to rise

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...s-gavin-newsom

[jogator1]

Originally Posted by Pam

Are you serious or are you being ironic? You want some people to completely outfit themselves in complete PPE for a trip to the grocery store, so other people don't have to put on a simple face mask, which is somehow a huge violation of their civil liberties??? Wow.

I might also remind people that Boris Johnson was quite cavalier about this disease, and then, according to his public statement, almost died. So you never know who's really vulnerable.

Pam, you are the one who started this post due to your fear of contracting this virus as others are not wearing a mask. Just as you ask others to wear a mask and protect YOU, you can wear proper PPE and protect YOURSELF. Why rely on others when you can take care of yourself? It is nobody else's responsibility to ease your fears especially when you can protect yourself. It never ceases to amaze me how people want to control others to make their own life easier. As I mentioned earlier, get yourself a properly fitted N95 mask and forget about what others are doing.

[gravy boat]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

How about cost-benefit? If wearing a mask is useless, what’s the harm. On the other hand, if as now generally excepted in the medical community, wearing masks help limit the spread, there is obvious benefit. The problem is that those who don’t wear masks will never know if or who they spread the virus to, and whether or not those people got severely ill or even die.

Sometimes you cannot obviate fundamental truths with “difference of views.” We’re not talking about differences of opinion on the appropriate size of government, or bottoms up economics. These individual choices have actual consequences on others.

You can rest easy, I am done with this thread. You can go back to your regularly scheduled Fox News programming for your talking points.

Hoo boy. Most conservatives watch more than just Fox. They watch CNN, MSNBC for comparison.

[dickiej]

This is not about the effectiveness or non effectiveness of masks....it's about "the government isn't going to tell me what to do." Do the people who don't wear masks also not pay their taxes? I live in the Pacific Northwest and we have loads of "preppers" out here....they buy land, build a house, put a gate across the driveway and hang up about 10 NO TRESPASSING signs. They won't even put their street numbers up...."I don't want anybody to know where I live"

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

The modern surgical mask did not even come into existence until the 1960’s....so uh....no, during pandemics of 100 years ago no one wore a mask. Please let us not base our public health decisions on what we did or didn’t do 100 years ago!

Southern Bell operators wore masks during the 1918 Flu...



(Text):
Southern Bell Telephone and Telegraph operators during the Spanish influenza epidemic in Jacksonville, Florida. Nearly one-third of the city's residents contracted influenza, according to historian Gary Mormino. [State Archives of Florida, Florida Memory (1918)]

[LongBay]

When I wear a mask in public:
🔵 I want you to know that I am educated enough to know that I could be asymptomatic and still give you the virus.
🔵 No, I don’t “live in fear” of the virus; I just want to be part of the solution, not the problem.
🔵 I don’t feel like the “government is controlling me;” I feel like I’m being a contributing adult to society and I want to teach others the same.
🔵 The world doesn’t revolve around me. It’s not all about me and my comfort.
🔵 If we all could live with other people's consideration in mind, this whole world would be a much better place.
🔵 Wearing a mask doesn’t make me weak, scared, stupid, or even “controlled.” It makes me considerate.
🔵 When you think about how you look, how uncomfortable it is, or what others think of you, just imagine someone close to you - a child, a father, a mother, grandparent, aunt, or uncle - choking on a respirator , alone without you or any family member allowed at bedside.

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by Major

What did we do in 1969 -- Hong Kong Flu?

What did we do in 2003 -- SARS?

What did we do in 2009 -- H1N1 a/k/a Swine Flu?

The point is we've had many, many epidemics since 1918, and what we are

doing right now is unprecedented.

Hey Major....are you getting ready to go to the Tulsa rally?? People are lining up for several days now. I'm sure you would love it. It is right up your alley

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

Hey Major....are you getting ready to go to the Tulsa rally?? People are lining up for several days now. I'm sure you would love it. It is right up your alley

Why do you always try to inject politics into these discussions?

[Newbiesaukee]

Originally Posted by DEJ

Why do you always try to inject politics into these discussions?

Because that is exactly what this thread is about. It has nothing to do with history, medicine, and science.

Unfortunately, it has everything to do with politics and strongly held political beliefs.

Nothing wrong with discussing politics but at least label it as such.

[ApS]

The Leftists have angled ALL the headlines towards November.

[Major]

Originally Posted by LongBay

When I wear a mask in public:
🔵 I want you to know that I am educated enough to know that I could be asymptomatic and still give you the virus.
🔵 No, I don’t “live in fear” of the virus; I just want to be part of the solution, not the problem.
🔵 I don’t feel like the “government is controlling me;” I feel like I’m being a contributing adult to society and I want to teach others the same.
🔵 The world doesn’t revolve around me. It’s not all about me and my comfort.
🔵 If we all could live with other people's consideration in mind, this whole world would be a much better place.
🔵 Wearing a mask doesn’t make me weak, scared, stupid, or even “controlled.” It makes me considerate.
🔵 When you think about how you look, how uncomfortable it is, or what others think of you, just imagine someone close to you - a child, a father, a mother, grandparent, aunt, or uncle - choking on a respirator , alone without you or any family member allowed at bedside.

My, aren't you virtuous. The smugness oozes from you post. Let's take a look at some of the adjectives to describe you: educated, fearless, considerate, informative, brave, superior. You are certainly the cat's you know what.

Reading your post made me think of this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXZeq9eXAys

Anyway, I have sneaking suspicion that you and Neville Chamberlain would have gotten along famously.

[rsmlp]

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

Because that is exactly what this thread is about. It has nothing to do with history, medicine, and science.

Unfortunately, it has everything to do with politics and strongly held political beliefs.

Nothing wrong with discussing politics but at least label it as such.

You are 100% correct.

I don't know the stats but can pretty much guarantee you 90% of the anti mask group are Trump supporters who clearly have zero regard for science. Oh, and Major's persistent noting Dr "Fraud's" mask comments was an obvious attempt to justify his idiocy or ignorance. Fauci's comments were recorded when masks were in short supply and made so as to mitigate a run on them so that there would be an adequate supply for health professionals.

So here's the science; masks are the number one way to help stop a virus from spreading. This is so well accepted in science as to be fact. To the extent people in closed spaces are not using masks they are being selfish and rude. Personally, I don't give a damn if you want to put yourself at risk but when you put me and my family at risk, then that's a problem. That said, I know you dimwits will not change your behavior.

If our illustrious POTUS doesn't need to wear a mask why should I?

[Major]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

Hey Major....are you getting ready to go to the Tulsa rally?? People are lining up for several days now. I'm sure you would love it. It is right up your alley

If I lived in Oklahoma, I'd be there. I am unashamed of my support and admiration of our GREAT president. He has done more for the country in 3+ years than his lazy do-nothing predecessor.

[rsmlp]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0612172200.htm

and this is telling:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/18/trum...al-of-him.html

[Pam]

Originally Posted by jogator1

Pam, you are the one who started this post due to your fear of contracting this virus as others are not wearing a mask. Just as you ask others to wear a mask and protect YOU, you can wear proper PPE and protect YOURSELF. Why rely on others when you can take care of yourself? It is nobody else's responsibility to ease your fears especially when you can protect yourself. It never ceases to amaze me how people want to control others to make their own life easier. As I mentioned earlier, get yourself a properly fitted N95 mask and forget about what others are doing.

Actually, you misunderstand me somewhat. I'm actually not as worried about catching this disease myself, as I am that a resurgence in society as a whole will undo the work accomplished in the lockdown and will mean further restrictions. (This is what I wrote: "After the pain and suffering of the lockdown, it worries me that people may let this disease get out of hand again because they don't like wearing a mask. Especially as more people pour into town.")

I'd like to go out to eat and see my friends. I want the economy to come back strong. A resurgence in the disease threatens that. I want this all to be behind us and carelessness in society threatens that.

[Jdarby]

Originally Posted by ApS

Southern Bell operators wore masks during the 1918 Flu...



(Text):
Southern Bell Telephone and Telegraph operators during the Spanish influenza epidemic in Jacksonville, Florida. Nearly one-third of the city's residents contracted influenza, according to historian Gary Mormino. [State Archives of Florida, Florida Memory (1918)]

Thank you for finding this. Mask use even in surgery didn’t routinely start until 1898. So the fact that the general public would be wearing them for a pandemic only 20 years later is pretty remarkable as the science of infectious disease was still in its infancy. Frankly, now that we know as much as we do about transmission of respiratory illness and mask usage, it’s sad to see those that don’t support their use. The people in this old photo were basing much on sheer faith that the mask would work, not the science we have today.


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[thinkxingu]

Just posted on my town's forum with a heads-up for anyone susceptible.

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[Major]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Just posted on my town's forum with a heads-up for anyone susceptible.Attachment 16132

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At first I thought it was a hoax but it appears to be real! Thank you Thinkxingu! Finally, some common sense mask reform that we can all stand behind!

[Newbiesaukee]

Originally Posted by Major

At first I thought it was a hoax but it appears to be real! Thank you Thinkxingu! Finally, some common sense mask reform that we can all stand behind!

It certainly is a hoax...the real part is that it is political. I am defining “hoax” as something “real and true” but you don’t want to believe it.

Isn’t that the correct political definition of hoax...true, but not acceptable? Like the “Chinese Virus” hoax which isn’t any different from the flu.

We believe what we wish to believe, what’s truth got to do with it?

[Major]

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

It certainly is a hoax...the real part is that it is political. I am defining “hoax” as something “real and true” but you don’t want to believe it.

Isn’t that the correct political definition of hoax...true, but not acceptable? Like the “Chinese Virus” hoax which isn’t any different from the flu.

We believe what we wish to believe, what’s truth got to do with it?

You are your own lexicographer. Define things as you wish.

[Newbiesaukee]

Originally Posted by Major

You are your own lexicographer. Define things as you wish.

Exactly my point. The origin of NoMaskDay seems to be a libertarian group and the defense is against any interference by government in our lives. I may not agree...but it is a political position. It has nothing whatsoever with whether masks have anything to do with health and safety.

That is a matter of personal principle. Ok....but it has nothing to do with science or medicine. Saying “I won’t wear a mask because it does not work” just is not defensible.

And some of the stuff on the Internet is put on there by foreign interests precisely to divide us.

No more from me...I have to talk to the Instacart shopper.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

Exactly my point. The origin of NoMaskDay seems to be a libertarian group and the defense is against any interference by government in our lives. I may not agree...but it is a political position. It has nothing whatsoever with whether masks have anything to do with health and safety.

That is a matter of personal principle. Ok....but it has nothing to do with science or medicine. Saying “I won’t wear a mask because it does not work” just is not defensible.

And some of the stuff on the Internet is put on there by foreign interests precisely to divide us.

No more from me...I have to talk to the Instacart shopper.

I am so sick of the science and facts arguments. If there are science and facts involved, and you are so confident that quarantining, social distancing and masks work, please answer for me --

How many lives have been saved as a result of quarantining a/k/a destroying our economy?
How many lives have been saved because of social distancing?
How many lives have been saved because of wearing masks?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented as a result of quarantining a/k/a destroying our economy?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented because of social distancing?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented because of masks.

You can't answer any of these questions. There will never be any way of knowing. For all we know, these actions may have made the situation worse. All we know is the raw data which is as follows:

Worldwide cases of Chinese coronavirus - 8,621,747
U.S. cases of Chinese coronavirus - 457,338
Worldwide deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 2,265,400
U.S. deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 120,723
*from Worldometer

By contrast the Swine flu, which was not accurately tracked, resulted in the following estimates:

Worldwide cases - 700,000,000 to 1,400,000,000
U.S. cases - 43,000,000 to 89,000,000
Worldwide deaths - 284,000 to 575,000
U.S. deaths, 8,870 to 18,300
*from Wikipedia

From the raw data, an argument exists that what we did in the U.S. caused more deaths than if we had handled it the same way as the Swine Flu. Clearly, given the average age of death from the Chinese coronavirus (82), we did a poor job in protecting the elderly.

Anyway, the raw numbers do not support our over-the-top response. Destroying tens of millions of lives for what?

In the meantime, I'd appreciate answers to my first questions if you have them.

[jogator1]

Originally Posted by Pam

Actually, you misunderstand me somewhat. I'm actually not as worried about catching this disease myself, as I am that a resurgence in society as a whole will undo the work accomplished in the lockdown and will mean further restrictions. (This is what I wrote: "After the pain and suffering of the lockdown, it worries me that people may let this disease get out of hand again because they don't like wearing a mask. Especially as more people pour into town.")

I'd like to go out to eat and see my friends. I want the economy to come back strong. A resurgence in the disease threatens that. I want this all to be behind us and carelessness in society threatens that.

I think most of us (at least Myself) agree with you that we don't want a resurgence and would love for things to return to normal. It's just easy to throw around the word "science" to justify an opinion when the science really doesn't exist for this virus or preventing it with a mask. Your typical surgical/medical mask is effective for about 60 seconds after which the humidity of your breath renders it practically useless. That's science indicated by peer reviewed research. The pro-maskers are completely assuming that a mask will catch large infected droplets of a cough/sneeze even after those first 60 seconds. It is pure assumption (maybe right, maybe wrong) but the real problem with transmission is being exposed to the viral cloud for 5-10 minutes. Those large droplets quickly fall to the ground and don't create the "cloud" of suspension that has been noted to be far more dangerous in transmission. Science does not indicate that a surgical/medical mask can stop this cloud after 60 seconds of use. This is the reason they're calling for social distancing as those large droplets will typically fall to ground before traveling greater than 6 ft. This virus is here and will take its course through the summer. There's no way of stopping it until we find a viable treatment or vaccine. There are areas around the world and in this country in which the virus is spreading rapidly even in lockdown or with full use of masks (Asia). We can look at the statistics and interpret them as we wish. Our interpretation is our opinion based on our political beliefs. Some think the stats aren't bad, some are living in complete fear with the same exact virus. Personally, I wear a mask when it is mandatory because I like to follow the rules. If it's not mandatory I make the decision for myself based on the situation. Others have the same liberty to make their own decision.

[Jdarby]

https://www.psypost.org/2020/06/psyc...pandemic-56980


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[Newbiesaukee]

Originally Posted by Major

I am so sick of the science and facts arguments. If there are science and facts involved, and you are so confident that quarantining, social distancing and masks work, please answer for me --

How many lives have been saved as a result of quarantining a/k/a destroying our economy?
How many lives have been saved because of social distancing?
How many lives have been saved because of wearing masks?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented as a result of quarantining a/k/a destroying our economy?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented because of social distancing?
How many cases of Chinese coronavirus have been prevented because of masks.

You can't answer any of these questions. There will never be any way of knowing. For all we know, these actions may have made the situation worse. All we know is the raw data which is as follows:

Worldwide cases of Chinese coronavirus - 8,621,747
U.S. cases of Chinese coronavirus - 457,338
Worldwide deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 2,265,400
U.S. deaths attributable to Chinese coronavirus - 120,723
*from Worldometer

By contrast the Swine flu, which was not accurately tracked, resulted in the following estimates:

Worldwide cases - 700,000,000 to 1,400,000,000
U.S. cases - 43,000,000 to 89,000,000
Worldwide deaths - 284,000 to 575,000
U.S. deaths, 8,870 to 18,300
*from Wikipedia

From the raw data, an argument exists that what we did in the U.S. caused more deaths than if we had handled it the same way as the Swine Flu. Clearly, given the average age of death from the Chinese coronavirus (82), we did a poor job in protecting the elderly.

Anyway, the raw numbers do not support our over-the-top response. Destroying tens of millions of lives for what?

In the meantime, I'd appreciate answers to my first questions if you have them.

Sorry, I withdraw from the field...not worth the discussion. I know you won’t take that personally.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Jdarby

https://www.psypost.org/2020/06/psyc...pandemic-56980


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So now I guess you're a psychopath if you have a differing view on this this issue. Seems reasonable to me. Does this apply to other far left causes, such as not believing that climate change is an existential threat, or that boys dressed as girls can compete (and win) against girls, or that abortion is not murder? If so, then half the country's population are psychopaths by your and the author's definition.

For the record, within my circle of friends, none and I mean none of us believe in this nonsense. You should know in fact there is a silent majority who are fed up and on the verge of rebellion. The day is coming (November 3rd) when this will be evident. We are sick and tired of overreaction to Chinese coronavirus and rioting and looting and all the other divisive nonsense.

I am mildly amused by my statement "within my circle of friends." I have a vision of Pauline Kael who famously stated "Nobody I Know Voted For Nixon!" But you get the point, I hope.