Wow trail

[jetskier]

Hi Joey2665,

Federal funding is not contingent upon building along or over the railway. Money that is allocated by the Fed to New Hampshire for alternative transportation is disbursed by DOT to projects as they see fit. I would be surprised if DOT were to allocate money to the WOW trail based upon replacing the rail line.

Just saying.

Jetskier

[Woodsy]

NH DOT can allocate the money without the need for replacing the existing railroad... Replacing the existing railroad just makes the construction costs way cheaper.

I do not see the STB, the NH DOT or the Railroad companies allowing the track to be torn up...

The WOW folks need to coexist...

Woodsy

[Trail Goer]

Getting back to beating on a dead horse here!
For those in favor of the trail and who have zero regard for the railroad, this is what must be done for the rails to pulled up (see link). The railroad line up in Littleton, NH hasn't seen a train on those tracks since 1998 and it took the New Hampshire Central Railroad, up until about 2 years ago, to file a discontinuance with the STB, to remove themselves of common carrier obligations and remove themselves of a lease agreement with the state, before the state could even petition for abandonment. It's going to be an awfully tall order (if not impossible) to get the tracks shut down to build phase 3 in place of the tracks. Alta's study was supposed to wrap up at the end of April, I'm eagerly waiting to see the results of their winter long study. I imagine it will be any day now when the study is submitted to the city of Laconia.
https://www.stb.gov/decisions/readin...f?OpenDocument

[Trail Goer]

The city of Laconia, has yet to go public with results from Alta's study, that they preformed over the winter. Much to my surprise however, I just came across this article that sheds light on a study that the railroad paid for. If the city ever decides to release the results of the study, one should be able to compare both.

"An analysis says the Hobo & Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad in New Hampshire accounts for more than $17.4 million in total economic impact annually."


https://www.visitwhitemountains.com/...gional-economy

[joey2665]

I said it before and will day it again. They will never dismantle the railroad and the only way for the WOW Trail to proceed with the next phase is for the trail and rail co coexist.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

The city of Laconia, has yet to go public with results from Alta's study, that they preformed over the winter. Much to my surprise however, I just came across this article that sheds light on a study that the railroad paid for. If the city ever decides to release the results of the study, one should be able to compare both.

"An analysis says the Hobo & Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad in New Hampshire accounts for more than $17.4 million in total economic impact annually."


https://www.visitwhitemountains.com/...gional-economy

Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

From the same article:

$17.4 million dollars in total economic impact annually, and affects the equivalent of nearly 380 full and part time jobs in the restaurant, lodging, hospitality and retail sectors.

Are we to believe that these trains are the sole reason the tourist/passengers visited the area? They made the reservations, booked their rooms etc. simply to come here and ride the hobo?

I did my own study many years ago.... The results.... 100% of "studies" are biased. Including mine of course!

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

From the same article:

Are we to believe that these trains are the sole reason the tourist/passengers visited the area? They made the reservations, booked their rooms etc. simply to come here and ride the hobo?

I did my own study many years ago.... The results.... 100% of "studies" are biased. Including mine of course!

That is not what the study says. It’s is saying what the 17.4 million equates too, not that it created those or is the sole reason those jobs exist.

However I do agree all studies do have some degree of bias.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by joey2665

That is not what the study says. It’s is saying what the 17.4 million equates too, not that it created those or is the sole reason those jobs exist.

However I do agree all studies do have some degree of bias.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

The study in that article says:

The Railroad, which operates excursions from Lincoln, Meredith & Weirs Beach, New Hampshire, accounts for more than $17.4 million dollars in total economic impact annually, and affects the equivalent of nearly 380 full and part time jobs in the restaurant, lodging, hospitality and retail sectors.

So, you are saying that it "equates to", but the published article says "accounts for".... BIG difference.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

The study in that article says:

So, you are saying that it "equates to", but the published article says "accounts for".... BIG difference.

Yes it accounts for 17.4 million to the economy which equates to 350 jobs, it did not create or is not the reason these jobs are maintained. It’s just saying 27.4 million equals about 350 jobs as a comparison


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Yes it accounts for 17.4 million to the economy which equates to 350 jobs, it did not create or is not the reason these jobs are maintained. It’s just saying 27.4 million equals about 350 jobs as a comparison


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Nice job, stripping my quote/comments to make your point "feel" stronger! Very Conservative of you.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

Nice job, stripping my quote/comments to make your point "feel" stronger! Very Conservative of you.

Thank you very much I appreciate the compliment


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Thank you very much I appreciate the compliment


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Well I am aware that you are the "BE-ALL-END-ALL" of every discussion on this forum. So, carry on with your bad self.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

Well I am aware that you are the "BE-ALL-END-ALL" of every discussion on this forum. So, carry on with your bad self.

What in God’s good earth are you talking about? We are not allowed to read and interpret a study and come up with different conclusions.

Oh I see we all have to agree with you, I’m sorry your interpretation is correct and I am wrong please forgive me.

I just do not understand why people cannot agree to disagree and move on.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

From the same article:

Are we to believe that these trains are the sole reason the tourist/passengers visited the area? They made the reservations, booked their rooms etc. simply to come here and ride the hobo?

I did my own study many years ago.... The results.... 100% of "studies" are biased. Including mine of course!

We will have to wait for the city to release their study, which we all know will be in favor of the WOW Trail, so let's not kid ourselves. The railroad did the right thing though, it will be up to one's own interpretation of both studies to draw their own conclusion.

[joey2665]

Article in Concord Monitor

https://www.concordmonitor.com/Basch...iders-25343268


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Trail Goer]

There will be a public meeting next week on Wednesday 9/25 at the Guilford Public Library, from 6pm to 8pm to discuss the WOW Trail phase 3 expansion. I guess the city of Laconia, will be getting more than what they bargained for because the state jumped at the opportunity to have the entire state studied by Alta and have been and will be holding meetings for each region of the state.
See the link for more info.
https://nhpedbikeplan.com/

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

There will be a public meeting next week on Wednesday 9/25 at the Guilford Public Library, from 6pm to 8pm to discuss the WOW Trail phase 3 expansion. I guess the city of Laconia, will be getting more than what they bargained for because the state jumped at the opportunity to have the entire state studied by Alta and have been and will be holding meetings for each region of the state.
See the link for more info.
https://nhpedbikeplan.com/

Thank you for the update. Looks like it is going to get very interesting

[macbeth]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

Big meeting tonight, is anyone going? I was planning to be there till my wife won tickets for tonight's Bruins game. Only preseason but if anyone here knows hockey, then you know how completive preseason NHL hockey actually is with players fighting for roster spots.

I will not be. I feel it's a Total waste of resources. More people feel this way but are afraid to speak their mind. Please stop the WOW trail in it's place. Stop throwing money out the window.

[Trail Goer]

I guess I deleted my last post. Anyways, just remember "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", so people who are against the wow trail for one reason or another cannot stay silent, you can be rest assured the supporters will be loud and will fight hard, the same scenario has been played out in every state for the past 20 years and there have been dire consequence because people stayed silent (railroads have been put out of business for the soul purpose of building a trail). Going back to the 1970 and 80's the history of the rail trail and its main purpose was to make use of railroad right of ways that were no longer used by the railroads, but that all change some 20+ years ago when they started going after active rail lines under government ownership (local, county or state) and rail trail supports are getting what they want because people on the other side are staying silent.

[thinkxingu]

My daughter and I rode the Nashua rail trail last week. Five miles out, ice cream and a rest on the green, five miles back. Awesome exercise, awesome time with my daughter. Sure wish we had one closer than 20 minutes away.

Happy Saturday, all!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[joey2665]

Done properly with the railroad and the trail coexisting with an esthetically pleasing barrier between the 2 would be a great asset to the towns local businesses and residents.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Done properly with the railroad and the trail coexisting with an esthetically pleasing barrier between the 2 would be a great asset to the towns local businesses and residents.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Just thinking that it would be cool to see the train come through!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[TiltonBB]

From the Laconia Sun:

Alta Planning calculated a net total benefit of a completed trail over a 20-year period of between $67 million and $89 million.


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...nt=read%20more

[Major]

I nearly fell out of my seat laughing! I guess if you're going to go big, you should go real big. I wonder how the former owners of the Holy Grail feel about this estimate, or the dying businesses downtown?

One other point caught my eye. We frequent the Long Bay beach quite a bit, and noticed that this past year there were a lot of riders on the train. It was really noticeable. Certainly not a scientific observation, but I highly doubt there has been a 30% rider decrease the last 4 years.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

I nearly fell out of my seat laughing! I guess if you're going to go big, you should go real big. I wonder how the former owners of the Holy Grail feel about this estimate, or the dying businesses downtown?

One other point caught my eye. We frequent the Long Bay beach quite a bit, and noticed that this past year there were a lot of riders on the train. It was really noticeable. Certainly not a scientific observation, but I highly doubt there has been a 30% rider decrease the last 4 years.

I certainly agree with you observation of the rail riders. Too me it also has looked more crowded than in the past.

I do disagree with your downtown business observation using the Holy Grail. They had many issues including food quality, service and over spending on the renovation. I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I certainly agree with you observation of the rail riders. Too me it also has looked more crowded than in the past.

I do disagree with your downtown business observation using the Holy Grail. They had many issues including food quality, service and over spending on the renovation. I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I agree about the Holy Grail. However, my point is that the WOW trail, as far as I could tell, went by the Holy Grail. One would think that the huge influx of people using the WOW trail, as represented by its proponents, would have mitigated the issues with the Holy Grail. You know and I know that the users of the WOW trail have absolutely no impact on the downtown businesses. Laconia is not a destination city.

[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.[/url]

Do you mind sharing the name of the restaurant? You might as well get a free plug!

[Patofnaud]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

From the Laconia Sun:

Alta Planning calculated a net total benefit of a completed trail over a 20-year period of between $67 million and $89 million.


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...nt=read%20more

A very bias report. While they cite 6M in local revenue generated by the trail, they only cite the 1M in ticket sales by the RR and totally ignored the revenue from all those train riders to Weirs/Merideth.

Anytime the Mount of the Train is running the boulevard is lined with folks shopping/eating/sightseeing/paying for parking/etc....

Also, it's bad when you scrub assets from reality to serve a small vocal crowd. Once it's gone, it's gone. Summer Camps, Trains, Amusement Parks, all things you tell your grandkids about but they never will get to experience. But boy that condo complex and storage facility looks great.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

Do you mind sharing the name of the restaurant? You might as well get a free plug!

Sorry I would rather not as it obviously would fill everyone in on the building I own and I'd rather it be anonymous. Let's just say it is not far at all from where the Holy Grail was located

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

I agree about the Holy Grail. However, my point is that the WOW trail, as far as I could tell, went by the Holy Grail. One would think that the huge influx of people using the WOW trail, as represented by its proponents, would have mitigated the issues with the Holy Grail. You know and I know that the users of the WOW trail have absolutely no impact on the downtown businesses. Laconia is not a destination city.

Laconia can be a destination city but let's leave that as there is a lot involved and to debate about.

I do agree that the WOW trail would not help restaurants in the downtown area. The main users of the trail are people exercising and I do not see bikers joggers and the like stopping in the middle of their workout to eat. Kind of defeats the purpose.

However I should state that and as I have said multiple times, I am in favor of the WOW Trail under certain circumstances such as it coexisting with the Scenic Railroad, SD/LB, aesthetically pleasing fencing along the way and without a doubt it must be completed with PRIVATE money via donations, advertising, fundraising and the like NOT public money.

[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Sorry I would rather not as it obviously would fill everyone in on the building I own and I'd rather it be anonymous. Let's just say it is not far at all from where the Holy Grail was located

I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!

ding ding ding There are more upgrades to come also.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by Outdoorsman

Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

So Outdoorsman, I now reverse the question back to you. What do you have to say about the gleaming report that all but lays down a red carpet with rose pedal for the WOW Trail?

[macbeth]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

So Outdoorsman, I now reverse the question back to you. What do you have to say about the gleaming report that all but lays down a red carpet with rose pedal for the WOW Trail?

And now I reverse the question back to you. Please answer his question.

[LongBay]

Originally Posted by Patofnaud

A very bias report. While they cite 6M in local revenue generated by the trail, they only cite the 1M in ticket sales by the RR and totally ignored the revenue from all those train riders to Weirs/Merideth.

Anytime the Mount of the Train is running the boulevard is lined with folks shopping/eating/sightseeing/paying for parking/etc....

Also, it's bad when you scrub assets from reality to serve a small vocal crowd. Once it's gone, it's gone. Summer Camps, Trains, Amusement Parks, all things you tell your grandkids about but they never will get to experience. But boy that condo complex and storage facility looks great.

Your absolutely right and the City of Laconia should not pay for the study which us taxpayers paid for. They should make the WOW trail organization pony up and pay the bill.

[TiltonBB]

It looks like there is significant support from the Laconia City Council.

The Laconia Mayor says “The thing that galls us is that this is a public right of way owned by the people of New Hampshire that runs right through the city and it is horribly under-utilized.”

Council member Hamel said. “A lot of good things have been happening in Laconia lately and this could be one more of these attractions that will bring people to the Lakes Region.”

From The Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...0bd807e04.html

[baygo]

Originally Posted by Major

I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!

New owners? That narrows it down to two places. I haven’t noticed any improvements at the Laconia Local Eatery, so that leaves a place that’s been around over 30 years.

[Major]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

It looks like there is significant support from the Laconia City Council.

The Laconia Mayor says “The thing that galls us is that this is a public right of way owned by the people of New Hampshire that runs right through the city and it is horribly under-utilized.”

Council member Hamel said. “A lot of good things have been happening in Laconia lately and this could be one more of these attractions that will bring people to the Lakes Region.”

From The Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...0bd807e04.html

You know what galls me, wasting taxpayer money on the Colonial Theater. Wasting taxpayer money on a BS study, where the outcome was obviously predetermined. The revenue numbers are laughable. The construction numbers seem low.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by baygo

New owners? That narrows it down to two places. I haven’t noticed any improvements at the Laconia Local Eatery, so that leaves a place that’s been around over 30 years.

Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[fatlazyless]

So, if I were to go there today, to the railroad tracks atop the embankment in the vicinity of South Down Shore, accessed via either the Paugus Bay Marina or by the Hilliard Rd-pickerel cove area ..... would I be able to walk along .....or ride a mountain bike ..... along side the tracks on the hard pack soil path that currently exists?

Is it legal as long as you stay close to the unused railroad tracks, and does anyone now use it for daily walking or bicycling? In the winter, the railroad tracks gets used by snowmobiles as a sno-mo trail.

If you are reasonably attired, and do not look like a young male homeless person, can one walk along the state owned railroad embankment with expectation of no interaction such as a local resident complaining about you to the police and the police showing up, or what?

[Woodsy]

FLL...

Because the railroad corridor is considered "Active - Expect a train at any time" if you were walking down the tracks (regardless of how you are dressed) it would be considered trespassing by the LPD. Sometime in December (its usually in the Sun) the tracks are listed as "Temporarily Inactive - No Train" and open for use by snowmobiles.

Woodsy

[fatlazyless]

Despite what you say ..... are there any locals who use the worn path for daily walks .... just because it's there and close to where they live ..... or is it a hard and fast rule that anyone on the path, be they a 9-year old, or an 89-year old .... out for a walk along the lake, on a flat path, about six feet above the water .... gets a police visit that was phoned in by a nearby observer ..... even though the train has stopped running now till next June?

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by macbeth

And now I reverse the question back to you. Please answer his question.

I did, see above so what are you getting at?

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

The Laconia Mayor says “The thing that galls us is that this is a public right of way owned by the people of New Hampshire that runs right through the city and it is horribly under-utilized.”

From The Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...0bd807e04.html

This is where the facts get skewed, it's "not a public right of way", it's a railroad right of way owned by the state. There's a big difference.

Another one they keep referring to is: NHDOT, telling the city that "rail takes priority" as a "state law", there's no state law that I can find and I've looked for it. What the state is referring to, is its obligation to abide by common carrier regulations that they agreed to when they purchased the line from the railroad. Like everything else rail related, the states purchase had to be approved by the then Interstate Commerce Commission (long since dissolved by the government) and now under the STB.

[Woodsy]

Trailgoer....

This is the RSA that covers it....

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-ham...ction-228-60-a

Woodsy

[Trail Goer]

Thank you for the correction. I've never heard or seen that website before, I was on the actual State of New Hampshire revised statues page and I was striking out. I found lots of railroad related stuff but nothing that I was looking for.

[macbeth]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

I did, see above so what are you getting at?

Well, I guess you did, must have missed it. My bad !!

[fatlazyless]

Riding in a large, old railroad passenger car, built maybe in the 1950's and watching the scenery is what happens with the Winnipesaukee RR, which runs in the summer months.

REMOVING the single line of rail road TRACKS from the Meredith-Laconia-Belmont-Tilton state owned shoreline embankment and constructing in its' place a 10' or 12' wide, walking, running, bicycling, non-motorized TRAIL, paved with beige colored pebble gravel would be a totally super-duper, year-2020, public health and tourist visitor improvement.

That rail road, summer tourist passenger train is so last century, so 19th century .... while people are living longer, and staying active into their old age ...... thanks to staying active with walking, running and bicycling.

That passenger train basically does nothing for nobody, while a walking-running-pedaling shoreline trail is the way to go.

If you enjoy sitting there and watching the scenery, you can always go drive your car on a scenic tour ...... but a walking trail is so much more healthy for a tourist area happening thing to do.

Lose the train ..... and, go pedal a bicycle! When you is too old to pedal, use a cane ...... walking along with a cane beats the pants off taking that ugly train …. and, ditto that for an ambulatory care walker ….walking along the wow trail when you is age-99 and needing a walker will also beat the pants off taking that ugly train ride.

[Trail Goer]

So you're okay with putting the Plymouth & Lincoln Railroad, the Lafayette Dinner train and the Lincoln Railroad shops out of business, just so you can have a trail? You sound self centered. The Clark family who owns the railroad and a family who has a done a lot to boost tourism in this state and a family who has created jobs for people, has stated in the report that losing the Winnipesaukee Scenic, would put the whole railroad out of business. How do you look someone in the face and tell them they're losing their job, just so you can have a trail?

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

So you're okay with putting the Plymouth & Lincoln Railroad, the Lafayette Dinner train and the Lincoln Railroad shops out of business, just so you can have a trail? You sound self centered. The Clark family who owns the railroad and a family who has a done a lot to boost tourism in this state and a family who has created jobs for people, has stated in the report that losing the Winnipesaukee Scenic, would put the whole railroad out of business. How do you look someone in the face and tell them they're losing their job, just so you can have a trail?

The Clark family are wonderful people with a first class operation that takes good care of their employees. I would hate to see anything detrimental happen to their business that has done nothing but promote the state and bring in tourists. Given the choice I would pick the rail everytime.

There has to be an amicable way for both to coexist it does not have to be one or the other and again PRIVATE funds not public

[LongBay]

It's interesting how the WOW Report, by the way was paid by the taxpayers of Laconia, failed to properly net out the loss of revenue due to closing down the railroads.

I like riding trains, planes and automobiles. I also like walking, hiking and skiing on trails. It appears there are a lot more miles of trails in the local area to enjoy than miles of railroads. So tell me, why exactly do we need more trails when the NH state, county and town administrators say they don't have enough money to properly fund the existing infrastructure. And why should taxpayers in Laconia be forced to pay for more trails when there are plenty to use right now. Folks just need to ask any outdoor enthusiast who lives here and he or she will be more than happy to tell you where they can be found.

[fatlazyless]

So, why would removing the tracks on the Lake Winnipesaukee embankment effect the railroad operations, the Hobo and Clarke's, up north in Lincoln? The distance between Laconia and Lincoln is about a one hour automobile, road drive, and maybe 45-miles road distance with separate businesses that are unrelated with no paying passengers traveling on a train on the railroad tracks from Lincoln to Laconia, or vise-versa.

There's a mountain short line railroad in North Conway and Bartlett that is separate from the Winni RR in Laconia, and removing the Winni RR tracks would have zero effect on that railroad, the Conway Scenic, up north. And, ditto that for the Cog Railroad that parallels the Jewell hiking trail on the west side of Mt Washington.

Very little of anything in NH, including people or freight moves by rail. Everything moves by car or by truck.

Removing the shoreline railroad tracks, and replacing it with a walking/bicycle path would be a great, local user improvement for Laconia, Meredith, and Belmont.

Lose the tracks, and build a walking/biking trail on the shoreline railroad embankment along Lake Winnipesaukee.

Peddling a bicycle is a healthy exercise that empowers people, while riding a slow moving train and looking at the scenery is good for some locations, but not so good for Lake Winnipesaukee. Biking and walking beats a train ride along the lake ..... even in a summer rain!

Here's the twelve mile long, sand colored, hard packed sand and small pea gravel www.cottonvalleyrailtrail.org in Wolfeboro and to the east through Brookfield and Wakefield..... a railroad line where the rr tracks were removed in some spots and left in place in others, along the twelve miles..... and replaced with a walking and bicycling "rail trail" ...... suggest you look at the photos and picture a similar trail running along Paugus Bay, Weirs Bay, and Meredith Bay on the railroad embankment ...... it makes a beautiful picture for what could be, here, on Lake Winnipesaukee.

[SAMIAM]

Any reason people couldn't walk on sidewalks?There are many beautiful quiet neighborhoods that are perfect for walking

[baygo]

This is a possible alternative to public finance of the trail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWg...&feature=share

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by baygo

This is a possible alternative to public finance of the trail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWg...&feature=share

. One great movie that would never be made today.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[tis]

Good idea, Baygo.

Everybody wants all these things because they don't pay for them. That's why our taxes are so high. People have their own little pet project.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

So, why would removing the tracks on the Lake Winnipesaukee embankment effect the railroad operations, the Hobo and Clarke's, up north in Lincoln? The distance between Laconia and Lincoln is about a one hour automobile, road drive, and maybe 45-miles road distance with separate businesses that are unrelated with no paying passengers traveling on a train on the railroad tracks from Lincoln to Laconia, or vise-versa.

There's a mountain short line railroad in North Conway and Bartlett that is separate from the Winni RR in Laconia, and removing the Winni RR tracks would have zero effect on that railroad, the Conway Scenic, up north. And, ditto that for the Cog Railroad that parallels the Jewell hiking trail on the west side of Mt Washington.

Very little of anything in NH, including people or freight moves by rail. Everything moves by car or by truck.

Removing the shoreline railroad tracks, and replacing it with a walking/bicycle path would be a great, local user improvement for Laconia, Meredith, and Belmont.

Lose the tracks, and build a walking/biking trail on the shoreline railroad embankment along Lake Winnipesaukee.

Peddling a bicycle is a healthy exercise that empowers people, while riding a slow moving train and looking at the scenery is good for some locations, but not so good for Lake Winnipesaukee. Biking and walking beats a train ride along the lake ..... even in a summer rain!

Here's the twelve mile long, sand colored, hard packed sand and small pea gravel www.cottonvalleyrailtrail.org in Wolfeboro and to the east through Brookfield and Wakefield..... a railroad line where the rr tracks were removed in some spots and left in place in others, along the twelve miles..... and replaced with a walking and bicycling "rail trail" ...... suggest you look at the photos and picture a similar trail running along Paugus Bay, Weirs Bay, and Meredith Bay on the railroad embankment ...... it makes a beautiful picture for what could be, here, on Lake Winnipesaukee.

Are you just going to ignore the fact that there's a railroad shop in Lincoln that depends on this rail line for business. They do a lot of work for other railroads and private rail car owners. One of the biggest clients is the MBTA commuter rail. Every year they have work coming in and finished product going out. They just took in another shipment a week or two ago. So some person that makes their living supporting their family working at the Lincoln Shops, your okay with killing their job just so you can have your trail. Go walk somewhere else then, the rail line is active, what part of that do you not understand?

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

Are you just going to ignore the fact that there's a railroad shop in Lincoln that depends on this rail line for business. They do a lot of work for other railroads and private rail car owners. One of the biggest clients is the MBTA commuter rail. Every year they have work coming in and finished product going out. They just took in another shipment a week or two ago. So some person that makes their living supporting their family working at the Lincoln Shops, your okay with killing their job just so you can have your trail. Go walk somewhere else then, the rail line is active, what part of that do you not understand?

Don’t bother he is just being his usual antagonistic self. I don’t think he believes 90% of his posts.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Wifi-1]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Don’t bother he is just being his usual antagonistic self. I don’t think he believes 90% of his posts.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

We hope so, at least

[fatlazyless]

So, with the Hobo Railroad railroad car, repair business in Lincoln NH, that has the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority for its' biggest customer, the tracks that run along Paugus Bay in Laconia are a go or no-go rail link between the two?

And, there's no other way for railroad cars to get to Lincoln NH from Massachusetts, such as through Vermont, up the Connecticut River?

Would a railroad car fit on an 8 1/2' x 48' flat bed, truck trailer? How big is a railroad car?

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

So, with the Hobo Railroad railroad car, repair business in Lincoln NH, that has the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority for its' biggest customer, the tracks that run along Paugus Bay in Laconia are a go or no-go rail link between the two?

And, there's no other way for railroad cars to get to Lincoln NH from Massachusetts, such as through Vermont, up the Connecticut River?

Would a railroad car fit on an 8 1/2' x 48' flat bed, truck trailer? How big is a railroad car?

Railroad coaches can be moved via the road, however the logistics and expense of doing so are much more cumbersome.

It is costly and far more labor intensive.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

So, with the Hobo Railroad railroad car, repair business in Lincoln NH, that has the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority for its' biggest customer, the tracks that run along Paugus Bay in Laconia are a go or no-go rail link between the two?

And, there's no other way for railroad cars to get to Lincoln NH from Massachusetts, such as through Vermont, up the Connecticut River?

Would a railroad car fit on an 8 1/2' x 48' flat bed, truck trailer? How big is a railroad car?

There's only one railroad connection to the shops in Lincoln, the other connection that came down from Woodsville, NH via Plymouth, NH has been gone for decades. I work in the transportation industry and I can tell you shipping railroad cars over the road would be cost prohibitive for them, it would make their rates non competitive. Moving railroad equipment requires ODL permits and possibly require escorts depending on what it is they are hauling, there's also road restrictions as most roads can't handle the length and size and most bridges and culverts, can't handle the weight.

[Barney Bear]

I believe that the subway cars from Bombardier in Canada, are partially assembled in the USA to satisfy the Buy America requirement for a Federal subsidy, and then delivered to Boston by rail. 🐻

[map]

My concern about the extension of the WOW trail to The Weirs, besides the destruction of the train tracks, would be the possibility of drawing the rif raf from downtown into the area, thus increasing crime.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by map

My concern about the extension of the WOW trail to The Weirs, besides the destruction of the train tracks, would be the possibility of drawing the rif raf from downtown into the area, thus increasing crime.

Why must the rif raf as you call them be restricted to downtown the whole city should be able to enjoy their presence and the value each brings to the community! Just as the city council intended


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[map]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Why must the rif raf as you call them be restricted to downtown the whole city should be able to enjoy their presence and the value each brings to the community! Just as the city council intended


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Ha ha ha ha ha!

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by map

My concern about the extension of the WOW trail to The Weirs, besides the destruction of the train tracks, would be the possibility of drawing the rif raf from downtown into the area, thus increasing crime.

The rif raf do not need the trail they already walk down the tracks.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[map]

Originally Posted by joey2665

The rif raf do not need the trail they already walk down the tracks.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Good point. I didn’t think of that.

[Mr. V]

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by map

Good point. I didn’t think of that.

I had a home in Long Bay for 12 years and it was broken into by such rif raf that entered the community from the tracks. Not only did they steal the tv and computer they are all the food in the fridge.

This is why in many WOW Trail discussions I always disagreed with the argument that the trail would provide easier access. They already have easy access.

[Major]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I had a home in Long Bay for 12 years and it was broken into by such rif raf that entered the community from the tracks. Not only did they steal the tv and computer they are all the food in the fridge.

This is why in many WOW Trail discussions I always disagreed with the argument that the trail would provide easier access. They already have easy access.

But you have to admit a paved trail will make it somewhat easier, right? The tracks are kind of a pain to walk on. Plus, they’re nearly impossible to bike on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Major

But you have to admit a paved trail will make it somewhat easier, right? The tracks are kind of a pain to walk on. Plus, they’re nearly impossible to bike on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My experience with these people is if there is a will there is a way. Paved or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[fatlazyless]

90-inches ....... width of Ford police suv including outside mirrors


54.5-inches ....... width across railroad rails


144-inches or 12-feet ...... width of highway lane on Route 93

...............

So the wow trail could be a 10' (120") or 12' (144") wide road in order to fit the police cars, and fire trucks which are wider at 104" plus mirrors. Fire trucks are close to 10' wide with their mirrors.
...............

There's simply no way the wow trail can get built without removing the railroad tracks, so the wow trail is a dead issue. It's pretty simple, there's not enough width, there, with the railroad tracks remaining in place.

If people want to tour the shoreline, they should get a jetski, and do it at 45-mph with no worry about hitting a homeless person who is trespass walking down the railroad tracks.
..............

How's this sound for a battle cry coming from the neighbors with homes close to Paugus Bay and the railroad embankment: 54.5" or fight! ..... (say it loud!) ...... a reference to the rails which are 54.5" across ...... much better living with the 54.5" rails .... than living with a 120" wide, rail trail ..... 54.5" or fight! ....... hooo-yuuh! ....

Sort of sounds like ..... the 54 40 battle cry for the 1844 Oregon boundary dispute .... or something!

And, wood railroad ties are usually about 8'6" long x 9" wide x 7" high, so removing the rail road tracks and rail road ties would free up 8'6" of nice flat compacted surface area and go a long way to facilitate a ten foot wide rail trail. Today, everything moves on inflated rubber tires as opposed to steel train wheels. Steel train wheels started going out of use in the Unites States, a hundred years ago, and got replaced by cars and trucks with rubber inflated tires.

Lose those ugly train tracks, and build a rail trail for walking, running, pedaling, and using those four legged, ambulatory care walkers with the tennis balls for feet.

If a new rail trail were constructed to be same width as a highway lane, 12', then it certainly seems that a guided tour, trolley tour bus vehicle could be used to function similar to the Winni Railroad and replace the large railroad cars with a Winni trolley bus tour that seats about 25-people per bus and driven/informed by the driver similar to the duck tour boats. Or, possibly going with duck tour boats as well ..... a 12' wide rail trail really opens the Winni waterfront to a lot of new uses.

[8gv]

Regarding the access of evil doers via tracks vs via WOW Trail:

Either route is easy but if one's presence on the tracks were to be questioned any answer would still be illegal with the exception of the designated crossings.

One's presence on the WOW Trail could easily be explained away by "we are taking a walk".

I either case carrying a TV down the ROW might arouse some extra suspicion.

[map]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

Ummm- no. We are talking about drug dealers and addicts and criminals. Not simply people of lesser means. You can "include" all those criminals at your place. I don't want them at mine.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

Local or not doesn’t matter we are talking about criminals and addicts not just the poor homeless or unemployed.

Maybe if 3 of these rif raf walked off the railroad tracks broke in stole and damaged your home like they did to me you might think differently.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by joey2665

Local or not doesn’t matter we are talking about criminals and addicts not just the poor homeless or unemployed. Maybe if 3 of these rif raf walked off the railroad tracks broke in stole and damaged your home like they did to me you might think differently. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd certainly want to prosecute and punish anyone, from any background, who burglarized my home: that is inexcusable behavior by anyone, whoever they are.

But that's not the issue.

The issue is how you and others here are singling out, judging, and condemning a class of your fellow Americans based upon fear and quasi-hysteria, ala Fox News.

Sure, many addicts are criminals, but not all are; just as many non-addicts, folks from privileged backgrounds, turn to crime.

Criminal behavior cuts across all socio-economic lines: always has, always will.

No,the WOW trail isn't the real problem: our society and its failure to engage all of its members is the problem.

You want to end homelessness, end addiction?

Give people meaning and something to live for.

Easy to say, hard to do, but that is what it would take.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

Exactly how does inclusion work? I love it when liberals cite or refer to Jesus, all while trying to completely remove religion from society to create the perfect secular state. Plus your quote is completely misguided. There is a huge difference between being poor and being a drug dealer and a drug user. My grandparents were poor, but they lived with dignity and grace.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[trfour]

Local businesses, Patrick's for one, and all!!

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by Major

I love it when liberals cite or refer to Jesus, all while trying to completely remove religion from society to create the perfect secular state.

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

[Major]

Originally Posted by trfour

Local businesses, Patrick's for one, and all!!

Not a big fan of Patrick’s or the WOW trail!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fatlazyless]

So, if the 8'6" railroad ties and steel railroad rails spaced 54.5" wide were removed, and replaced with a 12' wide, beige colored, sand and small pea stone gravel roadway, it could be a multi use trail used by walkers, runners, and bicycle riders.

12' is the same width as a highway lane on Route 93, and a 12' wide WOW Trail could get used by walkers, runners, bicyclers, as well as a tour bus trolley, guided talking tour where the driver talks and drives at the same time. 12' width could be used by both pedestrians and slow moving, 10-mph tour trolley buses that are 8' wide and hold 25-passengers. Maybe a duck amphibious vehicle, traveling by road and returning by water, similar to the Boston duck tours is possible.

As a 12' roadway it could get snow removed/plowed in the winter so the walking and bicycling could continue during the winter months.

Walking and pedaling a bicycle would make the Paugus Bay embankment available for use to the public, and could bring people as visiting tourists to Laconia to use it.

Just imagine a 9-mile WOW Trail like this that runs from Lakeport to Weirs Beach to Meredith, where it is now a state owned railroad embankment, along Lake Winnipesaukee, with a single railroad track, originally built in 1885. Is better to remove the railroad tracks and ties, and build a multi use road/trail.

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

Oops, meant "I am NOT liberall..."

[Major]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

Why am I not surprised. (By the way how am I wrong in calling you a liberal when you say “I’m liberal!”)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

I’m a little confused. Libertarians and liberals are 2 different philosophies and atheists certainly do not quite Jesus.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Wifi-1]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I’m a little confused. Libertarians and liberals are 2 different philosophies and atheists certainly do not quite Jesus.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Certainly agree with you here. Distraction by argument (or meaningless babbling), that is the liberal way.

[Outdoorsman]

There is NO length the "self entitled" ppl at SD/LB will go to just to get their way.

“As some of you may know, I’ve taken a no-sanctuary-city pledge,” Spanos said at the public library forum sponsored by the Long Bay and South Down homeowners associations.

WOW Trail

The candidates took several questions about a proposal to extend the WOW Trail from Lakeport to The Weirs. The extension would be in a railroad corridor that skirts Paugus Bay on one side and the gated communities of Long Bay and South Down on the other.

Some residents have said it could pose safety concerns when they move their boats down to the water. Some fear privacy invasion and crime.

Hosmer said he supports extending the trail if a compromise could be found that would deal with the concerns of all involved.

“The last place anybody wants to end up is in court,” he said. “I would seek, if I were the mayor, to play an active role as facilitator because mediation is less expensive than litigation.”

Spanos also said he would make it a priority to bring the homeowners and trail proponents together.

“I think the WOW Trail is a great idea, and I’d certainly like to see it extended to The Weirs,” he said. “It makes sense for the tourism industry up here, but not over any neighbor’s objections.”

NO PAC monies involved here.....

[Major]

Who wants to bet that Mr. V is not a libertarian? He seems like a big government kind of guy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by Major

Who wants to bet that Mr. V is not a libertarian? He seems like a big government kind of guy!

My typo: I am NOT a liberal, at least I don't think of myself as such.

I ALWAYS vote for any listed Libertarian candidate.

I'm fiscally conservative and socially somewhat tolerant: let people be who and what they want so long as it doesn't interfere with me and mine; I don't vote Republican as I believe in a woman's right to choose.

I don't vote democrat as they're to free with the public coffers.

My beliefs are not black and white and do not fit the prescribed boundaries of the two major parties.

[Dhamma]

Originally Posted by joey2665

I’m a little confused. Libertarians and liberals are 2 different philosophies and atheists certainly do not quite Jesus.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Atheist dont believe in God but most agree that there was a rabbi called Yeshua, A/K/A Jesus. Theres enough talk about him to think that he existed.
On the other hand, there is no proof of a God who wants or needs to be worshiped.

Just saying

The only part of the WOW trail I've been on was behind Autoswerve. Whenever I had my free oil change I would walk down back to the WoW trail. gotta say, there were some iffy characters hanging out down there every now and then.
Didn't look like walkers, didn't look like runners, didn't look like bike riders.

[8gv]

Hey Fatlazyless...

Can you post up some more to bring some sanity back to this thread?

Thanks!

[Wifi-1]

Originally Posted by 8gv

Hey Fatlazyless...

Can you post up some more to bring some sanity back to this thread?

Thanks!

LOLOL...

Now that I laughed, it's normal for him to throw some disconnected distraction in.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by 8gv

Hey Fatlazyless...

Can you post up some more to bring some sanity back to this thread?

Thanks!

Question: Does a 9-mile long x 12'-wide wow trail, running from Lakeport to Weirs Beach to Meredith in place of the existing single 8'6" wide railroad ties and tracks need to be a paved asphalt surface, or could it be a more natural sand and small pea stone gravel surface?

That is a very good question, and thank you very much for asking. I do not know but think the more natural sand and small pea stone gravel would be a better, more natural fit and look for replacing the existing railroad, single track.

What the 12-mile long www.cottonvalleyrailtrail.org in Wolfeboro and towns to the east has is a sand and small pea stone gravel surface, as opposed to black asphalt. So, apparently the sand and small pea stone is probably doable? It sure looks a lot better than the black asphalt that's the same as a roadway.

[8gv]

Thank you!

[Trail Goer]

On Monday the Laconia City Council, is going to vote on a resolution to have the tracks pulled up infavor for the WOW Trail from Lakeport to Weirs Beach.

The resolution, authored by Mayor Ed Engler, also pledges that the City Council will “work cooperatively with representatives of neighboring communities to study what actions may be necessary to gain state and federal approval for the rail-to-trail project.”

For the rest of the article
https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...aba4936a99.htm

[fatlazyless]

In brief, the details of today's LaDaSun article basically say the Wow Trail will only get constructed if the single, existing railroad track is removed.

The existing railroad track including the wood ties are about nine feet wide, and the Wow Trail will be about twelve feet wide.

With the single track removed, it also removes the need for an ugly safety fence that would hinder the view out to the lake ….. so, that's a huge plus!

Building the Wow Trail is big for building the future of Laconia!

[8gv]

How do the railroad stake holders respond?

How does the state respond?

This seems like a line in the sand will be drawn.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by 8gv

This seems like a line in the sand will be drawn.

Yes, seems like a permanent Wow Trail killer, impossible problem to overcome .... and Colin Van Ostern actually came so very close to winning that Nov, 2016 governor's race ..... boo-hoo.

Are you familiar with those tour bus trolleys which are basically a bus that's made to look like an old fashioned trolley train? Well ...... a tour bus trolley obviously has a tour bus trolley driver because it is basically a motor vehicle similar to a car or a truck with rubber tires, and the driver can double as a tour guide announcer as she/he drives the trolley.

So, with a twelve foot wide Wow Trail roadway, there's enough room for an eight foot wide trolley moving along at a slow 9-mph pace to share the roadway with the pedestrians, runners, roller skaters, and non-motorized bicyclists ...... especially if there's an extra three foot shoulder space in addition to the twelve foot wide Wow Trail.

Something to think about; reconstructing the railroad track by removing the steel rails, digging out the wood ties, and constructing a smooth 12'-wide roadway, used by pedestrians, runners, roller skaters, non-motorized bicycles, and 8'-wide tour bus trolleys with tourists on board, out for a ride, just like that old railroad train, except without the railroad tracks.

Sounds like a job for a John Deere loader with a back hoe!

By going from steel wheel trains, to rubber tire trolleys, it opens up that very scenic, state owned Winnipesaukee embankment to new local and tourist-visitor use.

[The Real BigGuy]

Read the last few posts and it piqued my interest. I’m not going back to read all 200 posts so I apologize in advance if my post is duplicative.

The issue for rail trail conversions is really, who owned the right of way and are the rails still “active”.

First, it is very difficult under federal law to “take” an active rail right of way. This has been trace to laws written in the 1800’s when rail was king. Seems to me that that if they are running trains along Paugus Bay they are still active.

Second, there is the ownership issue. Most older rail right of ways were created by a federal law from 1875 that granted rail companies an easement over a parcel of property. A 2014 US Supreme Court ruling said that this easement was removed when the track was abandoned and “ownership” reverted to the property owner. This ruling is being used by abutter groups (including one in my town) to contest the right of the state to transfer (or lease) a right of way that they acquired from a RR company to municipalities for rail trails. Not being a lawyer, I’m guessing that the theory is that at the moment the rails are abandoned (removed) the easement is voided and the RR company or state loses any right to transfer or lease. Don’t know if any of these cases have reached final decision. It will be interesting to follow.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Read the last few posts and it piqued my interest. I’m not going back to read all 200 posts so I apologize in advance if my post is duplicative.

The issue for rail trail conversions is really, who owned the right of way and are the rails still “active”.

First, it is very difficult under federal law to “take” an active rail right of way. This has been trace to laws written in the 1800’s when rail was king. Seems to me that that if they are running trains along Paugus Bay they are still active.

Second, there is the ownership issue. Most older rail right of ways were created by a federal law from 1875 that granted rail companies an easement over a parcel of property. A 2014 US Supreme Court ruling said that this easement was removed when the track was abandoned and “ownership” reverted to the property owner. This ruling is being used by abutter groups (including one in my town) to contest the right of the state to transfer (or lease) a right of way that they acquired from a RR company to municipalities for rail trails. Not being a lawyer, I’m guessing that the theory is that at the moment the rails are abandoned (removed) the easement is voided and the RR company or state loses any right to transfer or lease. Don’t know if any of these cases have reached final decision. It will be interesting to follow.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I think that you have hit on some of the issues:

1. The original taking of the property was explicitly for railroad use and it was done at a point in time where the B&M railroad did not have the money to replace washed out track on the segment north of Meredith.
2. Consideration to repurpose a rail line typically requires a formal abandonment (as pointed out) wherein the rail line has not been used for a period of time. The current rail line is actively used and there are federally issued licenses with rights of renewal.
3. According to Stone Consulting, the current rail line supports about $17.4 million of economic activity annually. The Alta study indicated about $12.4 million in economic benefit annually and a significant portion of that was "health" oriented which is not comparable.

It simply does not make any sense to "take" the rail line for special interest reasons. This is particularly so, based upon the fact that all indications are that it will be a negative economic impact relative to the current use.

Jetskier