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10-01-2019, 04:27 PM | #101 |
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I understand that the current cost per pupil in Moultonborough is $28,000. That’s a lot of dough. It’s been suggested that we should strike a deal with Brewster Academy. You should be able to get the actual $$ amount from the school, but they are reluctant, for obvious reasons, to give the costs.
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10-01-2019, 04:50 PM | #102 | |
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10-01-2019, 05:00 PM | #103 |
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The endless money tree
My Brewster reference was sort of tongue in cheek. It would be interesting seeing how many students there are in Tuftonboro. A consolidation could be a workable solution. Our taxpayers should zero in on the madcap spending by the schools. They never hear the word NO for any request. It makes much more sense to worry about runaway spending that a proposed assessment. JMO.
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10-01-2019, 05:20 PM | #104 | |
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The increase in valuation does not increase taxes. That is done at town meeting. If taxes are not increased at town meeting then everything being equal your taxes would not increase for that year (not counting county and state taxes). What happens with this valuation increase is the lake properties increased in value at a rate higher than non lake properties. When that happens more of the burden shifts to the lake properties because of the overall valuation shift on those properties. It's good news for the non lake properties because in my example above their taxes DECREASE. Alas, though, politicians always want more money to spend and town meeting usually gives it to them. So I'm betting everyone's taxes will increase, with the lake properties increasing more than the non lake properties. I figure I will be paying 2% more in the zero tax increase scenario I gave up above. Any increase in spending will add to that. |
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10-01-2019, 05:29 PM | #105 | |
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10-01-2019, 05:45 PM | #106 |
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Moultonborough assessor larceny
Years ago before Moultonborough had a high school, the kids did go to Kingswood Regional High School in Wolfeboro.
That’s a very long trip. |
10-01-2019, 06:34 PM | #107 |
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10-01-2019, 07:06 PM | #108 | |
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Brewster's a 501c3, so their financials are available online. Their costs, including boarding, are approximately $60-70K/student, which would likely equate to a number much higher than $28K without boarding. Even trickier--Brewster only accepts 50% of applicants, and then sends virtually all of them to a four year college. With only 90 or so students per year, another 24 students accepted simply because they live in town would mess up their basic model. |
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10-01-2019, 07:21 PM | #109 | |
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10-01-2019, 07:22 PM | #110 |
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Someone in power needs to look at this $28K/pupil spending plus all the spending for new new town building, new public safety building, new library, new public works building, proposals for town swimming pool, town senior center, ..... over that last few years. Surely there is someone fiscally responsible in government, that shows some fiscal responsibility and back bone, that can step in and stop the madness. No citizen protesting has been able to make a dent, so far. We citizens are just as disgusted as the out of stater's on this problem
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10-02-2019, 04:48 AM | #111 | |
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10-02-2019, 06:01 AM | #112 |
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For all the griping, Moultonborough has close to the lowest tax rate in the state.
It also faces a blessing/cost/temptation. There is a LOT of expensive lake front land in town. That means the costs of the town are spread across LOTS of households squeezed in along the lake shore, distributing and keeping costs down. Even the high paying lake residents pay less in tax than they would in another town for an equivalent property and equivalent town spending. Meredith's tax rate for example is twice Moultonborough's, as are almost all other towns around the lake, i.e. twice as much tax to pay on an equivalent valuation. The cost comes in when you consider that the population explodes in the summer and those summer folks DO consume town services. They use the library, the senior center, police and fire services, beat up the roads more, etc. The town has to pay for those services. The temptation is that a local resident (not living on the lake) that wants a new service can pay $50 in taxes for it and the lake people will pay $250 in taxes. What a deal. When YOU don't pay the large portion of a bill, why not go BIG! If you could pay Toyota Corolla prices and get a Mercedes E-class and have someone else pay the difference, why not? It's a rather unique setup. Yet, Moultonborough has close to the lowest tax rate in the state. The town spending is not an undue burden compared to the rest of the state. It seems to me the question is one of fair assessment. Property values ARE rising. It is the blessing/curse of a robust economy and a desirable location to live. It is correct and legally required to have current evaluation on property. Raised valuation does not directly equate to raised tax paid. That depends on how YOUR property value currently compares to others in the town and changes in the town budget. It is likely the tax RATE will drop. Yes, NH relies heavily on property taxes. This should not be a surprise. And BTW, NH's overall tax burden is one of the lowest in the nation. I'm not saying we shouldn't keep a watch on taxes and spending. I'm just saying we should keep things in perspective. |
10-02-2019, 06:10 AM | #113 | |
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10-02-2019, 06:12 AM | #114 | |
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10-02-2019, 06:32 AM | #115 |
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It's true I don't remember a year after a revaluation that the tax rate didn't go down. HOWEVER, in a few years, they spend more and the rate creeps up each year. It truly is all about spending. Somebody always wants more government services.
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10-02-2019, 06:35 AM | #116 |
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No, it means towns that don't plan ahead shouldn't expect other towns to make up the difference. Or, painting it with a broad brush, adopt socialism and abolish local town control. That is not the way this country is set up, so towns need to take responsibility for themselves, which begins with controlled spending.
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10-02-2019, 07:07 AM | #117 | |
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Sorry, folks....this turned into a rant...I will 🛑 for now. |
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10-02-2019, 07:39 AM | #118 | |
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And believe me, I have major problems with the school system, not just here but across the nation. It has been polluted with school administration bureaucracy that never quite seems to improve the education of our children no matter how much money is poured into it. Yet, Moultonborough, for better or worse, is a land wealthy town. If you were at a job paying $40,000 a year and you completed college and a dream job at $80,000 a year was offered to you, don't you think you might upgrade your lifestyle? You would be OK to upgrade the schools for your kids? Better house and cars? An uptick in the clothes you wear? Going out to a really nice, and expensive restaurant now and then? A snazzy vacation? So I think it is reasonable for Moultonborough's goals to perhaps reach a little higher than the average town and, with careful consideration, accept the burden of paying for it. There will always be people eager to spend other people's money on any nifty idea that comes into their heads. Those spendthrifts must be resisted. And of course it must be recognized that while the town is wealthy, not everyone in it is and due consideration should be given to the impact on them of any additional spending. |
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10-02-2019, 07:44 AM | #119 | |
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If I did, I might want ask how those "poor" communities became poor. |
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10-02-2019, 08:11 AM | #120 |
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There are plenty of “poor” children in this community, families needing public assistance, and these families have the full support of our residents, as they should. They are receiving the same education as all the other students. That does not mean that Moultonborough should have to share our revenue with other towns. In the past, recipient communities bragged about using donor town funds (us) for other than education. Now...how does that sit with you?
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10-02-2019, 08:56 AM | #121 |
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As a teacher, I think it's not only reasonable to keep an eye on school budgets but necessary. In fifteen years, I've seen money spent on many things that ultimately don't benefit the kids (administrator bloat mentioned above, for example) but that might "look good." $28k a year, if accurate, is very high, but that clearly would be a result of the costs being split between a low number of students.
In the end, the question would have to revolve around the benefits of the current system vs. the drawbacks of combining with other towns. I'd give an arm to have fewer than 30 kids in each of my English courses, so the costs may potentially worth it (assuming positive outcomes, of course). Side note: I also think it's important that we don't immediately condemn people who question, either in politics or in finances, but often that's where things go and real change stops. Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
10-02-2019, 10:15 AM | #122 |
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Not sure how this went to a discussion of schools. Because there are many things that Moultonborough spends money on, not just education.
Given the population I have never understood, whey there isn't a regional school system, for Moultonborough and surrounding towns. But be that as it may... Lets look at other things in the town..... Number of employees at the dump.... Number of full time police officers....(don't know if this is a concern or not) Pay of town administrative staff...... Number of DPW staff..... State of Police, Fire, and DPW equipment and vehicles.... My point is simple, overall I wouldn't blame the need for higher taxes, solely on education. There are many area's that would need to be looked at to understand the financial situation of the town. My Main argument for the valuation of property, is that the valuations seem to be getting unreasonable again..... some odd years ago, our tax valuation got north of 700K, over time it back down to just over 500K, and now this year it is jumping back to 650K.... I understand it is waterfront, and the camp that is on it isn't worth that much... But at the same time, I feel like the value of land in NH is modified for tax purposes to be what ever the towns need, to achieve what they need. In Moultonbough the need is to keep one of the lowest property tax rates in the state.......
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10-02-2019, 10:44 AM | #123 |
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Want to get upset.....look at the Moultonborough teachers contract and all the perks that are built in....insurance, computers, etc, etc. Nobody cares....
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10-02-2019, 11:12 AM | #124 | |
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In response to a question regarding local taxes, the current millage rate is 7.72 per 1000 assessed value: 2.44. Town 1.23 County. Mboro pays about 25% of total 1.95. Local education 2.10. State education fund |
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10-02-2019, 01:46 PM | #125 | |
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I'm not sure that's the hill you wanna die on. Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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10-02-2019, 02:11 PM | #126 |
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Link to Gov. Wentworth teacher, administrative and support staff salaries:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FWA...h-4_khW8y/view
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10-02-2019, 03:12 PM | #127 |
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10-02-2019, 03:32 PM | #128 |
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Really? We pay their salary and they know when they take the job it is made public.
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10-02-2019, 03:57 PM | #129 |
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Want to know how much those guys on North Woods Law make (and the rest of the government)?
https://business.nh.gov/paytransparency/ |
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10-27-2019, 09:37 PM | #130 |
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Sometimes assessments go up but the tax rate goes down proportionally. Happened where I live.
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10-28-2019, 11:33 AM | #131 |
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Summation
I thought everyone knew this, but I guess not. If you hold a public position in this country (not just NH) whether teacher, police officer, govt. official, etc. your salary is public information, since the public pays you.
Nonetheless, I checked my "estimated assessment" in Alton recently and realized that it went up 147.9% from last year. That is not a typo, 147.9%. I contacted the assessment company, they referred me to the town assessor. This is the quote I got from the town, "There are some properties that have buildings on their parcels but have been assessed for land only property. We are trying to get our data more consistent and yours is one that was not." Mind you, my property has had a building on it since 1910. I let the town know that I would be taking legal action through the state through the abatement process. Magically my assessment on my property card was back to the same value a week later. Interesting. I'm with everyone else, I don't mind paying the tax, but when you assess my land and structure for 75-100% more than I could actually sell it for, then we have a problem. |
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10-28-2019, 07:44 PM | #132 | |
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If you have been getting a 33% break on your assessed value because the property is not properly assessed, that is not fair to other taxpayers. I agree that the assessed value shouldn't be as high as 75 - 100% over market value. However, your idea of market value isn't necessarily the "correct" one. The assessment could also be flawed. It certainly is if it doesn't describe a building that has been there for over 100 years. It is not surprising that there can be long standing errors in assessment that can and should eventually be corrected. Unfortunately, that can come as a shock to people who have been getting an underserved break. I'm NOT saying what the reality of YOUR situation is. As I said, I'm confused as to what actually happened. |
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10-29-2019, 11:56 AM | #133 |
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Assessment Update
The property assessment does include a building.
It includes a type use as well: Island Camp. It does not have plumbing or heat or electricity. According to the property card it has a bathroom. It used to have a bathroom, it no longer has a bathroom. My idea of market value has a bit of data behind it, especially recent data to back it up. Two parcels very recently sold on our island for an average of about $116K each, one with a structure, one without. There is no way we could get more than $150K to $160K for what we have. Which is why when the reassessment came in at $263K I was floored. It would be nice if the towns would actually look at what you can sell it for, before they arbitrarily look at stats for assessed value. |
10-29-2019, 12:19 PM | #134 | |
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I would note that the town does none of this. They hire professionals and when mistakes are found, correct them. It is up to the homeowner to verify their house description is correct. Why would the town check out the work of a professional they just paid to do the same thing? But mistakes can be made. Sometimes it is because the assessors have no access to the building. In my case, it was unheated areas listed as heated and unfinished areas listed as finished. My assessment was probably fair if the house had the features as listed. It would be interesting to know what they based the raised appraisal on and what they then fixed. |
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10-29-2019, 03:45 PM | #135 |
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So... should a "river front/view" or "pond front/view" property be assessed the same as Big Lake front/view property?
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11-25-2019, 10:41 AM | #136 |
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So I went online today, and was able to see my tax bill due in December which references the new assessed value of my property..... And over all it was what I figured Higher assessed value means they can lower the overall effective tax rate, which lowered quiet a bit......
But yet still cause my taxes to go up roughly 6.5% over last year..... I am not happy, but I am also not as angry as I was....... I still think it is kind of a crap sandwich... that allows the Town, to raise tax revenue, but still keep the overall Tax rate low, so they can still claim to have the lowest overall tax rate around the lake.....
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11-25-2019, 11:11 AM | #137 |
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It is all in the budget.....
Look at your city/town budgets..... if the budget goes up (and they usually do, by whatever the inflation rate is minimum.) then the amount of tax dollars you pay out of pocket will go up. It doesn't matter how they fudge the equation, property value increase & tax rate/1000 decreases, or property value decreases & tax rate/1000 increases.
Property tax assessment isn't exact.... but I will take it every day over an income and/or sales tax! Woodsy
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11-25-2019, 11:55 AM | #138 |
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I haven't read all the posts in this thread.
However, it probably is not the budget, but the appraisal/ assessment cycle. Those of us that live in Moultonborough, may be affected more by the 20%/year appraisal/re-assessment. Namely, if your property hasn't been re-appraised in the last 5 years, and property sales, in your area have gone up, your tax bill will probably go up. 20%/year for five years meets statute requirements. RSA 75:8-a Five-Year Valuation. – The assessors and/or selectmen shall reappraise all real estate within the municipality so that the assessments are at full and true value at least as often as every fifth year, beginning with the later of either of the following: I. The first year a municipality's assessments were reviewed by the commissioner of the department of revenue administration pursuant to RSA 21-J:3, XXVI and the municipality's assessments were determined to be in accordance with RSA 75:1; or II. The municipality conducted a full revaluation monitored by the department of revenue administration pursuant to RSA 21-J:11, II, provided that the full revaluation was effective on or after April 1, 1999. Source. 2001, 158:54. 2003, 307:11. 2005, 119:1, eff. June 15, 2005. |
11-25-2019, 02:06 PM | #139 | |
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However if you look at sales tax, dependent on your tourism and over the border shoppers spending whims, you don't limit your tax base, rather in the case of NH you significantly raise it. The amount of people that come into NH for the day, to see the sights or "save on sales tax" is significant. Everyone fears sales tax in NH because once they have it it will only increase.... But you know if they set sale tax, and put the correct checks an balances in place to keep it from growing exponentially, a simple 1% sales taxes, will create a huge amount of revenue for the state..... Or NH can continue to tax the non-resident tax paying property owners, to the point, that NH stops becoming a desirable place to own a second home...... There is a double edge sword at play..... And while as a Lake front property owner, there are somethings I must deal with, such as the value of my property continuing to go up.... I don't think any property owner, should be asked to carry the burden of financing the state, when there is a sizable amount of non-resident, non meals and rooms tax paying, tax base out there that could be tapped.......
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11-25-2019, 06:27 PM | #140 | |
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not happened where I live
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11-25-2019, 06:31 PM | #141 | |
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Property taxes a mixed bag
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11-25-2019, 08:25 PM | #142 | |
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You may be able to have a conversation with your Selectmen but they will probably pay more attention to voters than they do to non-voters. As a non-resident you cannot vote or speak at a town meeting so your influence on town budget matters is very limited. If your New Hampshire home is not your primary residence you are basically along for the (expensive) ride. But, so far it is worth the price! |
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11-25-2019, 08:59 PM | #143 |
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I think non-resident property owners do have a right to speak (not vote) at town meetings, or any other sort of town meeting (ZBA for example) if public comments are opened. It comes under Due Process, not 1st Amendment.
So, for example if a town ZBA was discussing a rule that affects waterfront property owners... all waterfront owners (resident or non resident) would be able to be heard (if public comments were open) https://www.nh.gov/osi/resource-libr...c-meetings.pdf Woodsy
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11-25-2019, 09:23 PM | #144 | |
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I hear you, loud and clear
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11-25-2019, 09:39 PM | #145 |
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According the the rules adopted by the Town of Moultonborough: Non-Voters may speak about an Article at Town Meeting only with the consent of the Town’s registered voters. They still cannot vote.
So if a non-resident wished to speak about an article being discussed the voters attending the meeting would first have to take a vote to allow it. I have attended meetings (in a different community) where a town official, the School Superintendent, lived out of town so a vote had to be taken to allow him to speak at Town Meeting about the school budget. |
11-26-2019, 08:18 AM | #146 | |
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11-26-2019, 08:41 AM | #147 |
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Just a data point
This year, my M'boro assessment went up 10% but the tax bill (received yesterday) only went up 2%. My 2019 tax is back to where it was in 2017, after a small dip in 2018. Of the town's tax rate of $7.72/1000, 42% of the revenue goes to support the county and non-local schools. How does that compare to other towns?
My opinion is that the town frugally manages the tax revenue that it doesn't have to give away. Being a property rich town, is is considered a sugar daddy by county and state lawmakers. Still, the town's tax rate is among the lowest in the state.
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