New/proposed dock fees

lakershaker · 01-22-2019, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptT820

My seasonal dock and those of my neighbors (in Alton) are not taxed. The permanent docks are taxed at roughly $25 a square foot for value. So a permanent dock at 40-ft length by 5-ft wide (200 sq. ft) would be assessed at $5000 value. Hence the reason I still have a seasonal dock.

My seasonal dock in Alton is taxed. 6'x40' at $5,400. Which one is an oversight - yours or mine? If mine, I need to get to the tax assessor and get it changed!

tummyman · 01-22-2019, 03:35 PM

Most property assessments are on the actual property as of April 1st. So if you have a seasonal dock and it is not in the water on April 1st, I would question their assessing something that does not exist as of April 1st. Would be an interesting point to challenge them on for seasonal docks. My seasonal dock does not touch the legal boundary of my property.....it is about 2 inches off the property line. Wonder how they could assess me for that. Whole subject is a PITA.

MAXUM · 01-22-2019, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tummyman

Most property assessments are on the actual property as of April 1st. So if you have a seasonal dock and it is not in the water on April 1st, I would question their assessing something that does not exist as of April 1st. Would be an interesting point to challenge them on for seasonal docks. My seasonal dock does not touch the legal boundary of my property.....it is about 2 inches off the property line. Wonder how they could assess me for that. Whole subject is a PITA.

think that is a loosing battle. Kinda like my old dock sections thrown on the ground are now considered and taxed as a "deck"

FlyingScot · 01-23-2019, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tummyman

Most property assessments are on the actual property as of April 1st. So if you have a seasonal dock and it is not in the water on April 1st, I would question their assessing something that does not exist as of April 1st. Would be an interesting point to challenge them on for seasonal docks. My seasonal dock does not touch the legal boundary of my property.....it is about 2 inches off the property line. Wonder how they could assess me for that. Whole subject is a PITA.

Great question. Really they are taxing you on your use of riparian rights (rights that you have to the public water based on your ownership of the adjacent private land). Since you own the 2" or 100' or whatever of land along the lake, you are allowed to put a dock in. Yeah, it's a PITA to think about tax on 2", but the good news is that you are the only person who can put a dock in front of your house. If these riparian rights did not exist in their current form, you could not put in a dock, or, even worse, your neighbor could put in a dock in front of your house.

CaptT820 · 01-23-2019, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakershaker

My seasonal dock in Alton is taxed. 6'x40' at $5,400. Which one is an oversight - yours or mine? If mine, I need to get to the tax assessor and get it changed!

No oversight here. I've had a seasonal dock for 4 years and have no tax on it and never have.

They definitely should NOT be taxing you on what is truly a seasonal dock. I did a full assessment of all the properties on our island and only the permanent docks were taxed as they are actual full time structures with inherent full time value. I'd have the town reassess, although that can open a can of worms.

As others have stated, I don't have a permanent dock solely due to the yearly tax on said dock. The other associated costs add up quickly. If you have a new dock and its assessed at full value it could be assessed for $20,000 which would still only be ~$280 a year in Alton. Now add the ~$35 electric bill for the bubbler from Nov-March at a minimum and you are at $175. Maintenance is probably $50 a year or less, so your inherent cost per year is ~$500. Live there for 40 years and your bill is now $20K. That is a heck of a lot for a 7 month a year dock.

Don't get me wrong, I wish I had a permanent dock, but it wasn't in the budget when we got our place.

FlyingScot · 01-23-2019, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptT820

If you have a new dock and its assessed at full value it could be assessed for $20,000 which would still only be ~$280 a year in Alton. Now add the ~$35 electric bill for the bubbler from Nov-March at a minimum and you are at $175. Maintenance is probably $50 a year or less, so your inherent cost per year is ~$500. Live there for 40 years and your bill is now $20K. That is a heck of a lot for a 7 month a year dock.

Please don't remind us of the cost of the house attached to the dock.

Descant · 01-23-2019, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptT820

No oversight here. I've had a seasonal dock for 4 years and have no tax on it and never have.

As noted earlier some towns tax TSD's others do not. I have a friend in Gilford whose tax card says he gets assessed $13000 for his temporary seasonal dock. I agree with those who suggest if it isn't there on April 1, it shouldn't be part of the assessment. Since a lot of towns hire outside contractors to do the assessments, I think their motivation is to be accurate. If they start shuffling your assessment around just to raise your taxes, there will be more appeals to the BLTA (Bureau of Land Tax Appeals, right?) and their reputation and business suffers.

TiltonBB · 01-23-2019, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Descant

If they start shuffling your assessment around just to raise your taxes, there will be more appeals to the BLTA (Bureau of Land Tax Appeals, right?) and their reputation and business suffers.

I am not sure who the Bureau of Land Tax Appeals is. I have never heard that term. When I appealed my tax assessment I went to the Gilford Board of Assessors. I brought in several examples of neighboring properties and they agreed to lower my assessment. It was relatively easy.

Descant · 01-23-2019, 09:44 PM

My error. Board of Land Tax Appeals for when you don't get local satisfaction.
https://www.nh.gov/btla/

tis · 01-24-2019, 06:02 AM

Tilton, if you don't get satisfaction from the town you can appeal to the Board of Land Appeals.

Woodsy · 01-24-2019, 09:16 AM

IMHO.... (and it is probably unpopular here)

If you have a dock, seasonal or not, it should be taxed accordingly. I do understand that a permanent dock would have a much greater value than a seasonal dock that gets cranked up or taken in and out.

Woodsy

loonguy · 01-24-2019, 09:27 AM

I agree that a dock, seasonal or permanent, enhances the value of the property and, consequently, should be reflected in the assessed value of lake front property. I recently replaced a permanent dock with a seasonal dock that gets cranked up and IMHO the seasonal dock is the better option; I no longer need to run a water circulator through the winter or be concerned about wind-blown ice damaging the dock. If I had a boathouse, I probably would have a different view, but that is not an option if your property does not have a boathouse that is grandfathered under prior law.

WJT2 · 01-24-2019, 09:32 AM

You are already paying a property tax. The dock is attached to your property.
ENOUGH on NEW TAXES.

fatlazyless · 01-24-2019, 09:33 AM

From a January 19, 2019 article in the Union Leader, 'NH paid 314-million more to the feds than it received', every NH resident on average sent $11399 to the feds, and got back $11165 in federal services, or something; a difference of $234.

So, why not impose a NH state waterfront dock fee of $234/dock as a way to even it all out. By paying $234 to the state, and deducting it off your federal income tax, it will zero it out on an individual basis ...... and totally lessens the financial pain .... by turning it into a financial gain.

Is this pure genius or what! ........

Woodsy · 01-24-2019, 09:57 AM

WJT2.... I am not proposing anything "NEW". Just tax the value of the property accordingly including the dock.

Waterfront Property without a dock is worth $XX
Waterfront Property with a dock (Seasonal) is worth $XXx
Waterfront Property with a dock (Permanent) is worth $XXX

It is pretty simple...

Woodsy

BroadHopper · 01-24-2019, 10:32 AM

Normally 'permanent structures' are taxed by the state and or towns. Consider a dock that is removed during the winter months a 'temporary structure', maybe we can have docks reclassified?

MAXUM · 01-24-2019, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

From a January 19, 2019 article in the Union Leader, 'NH paid 314-million more to the feds than it received', every NH resident on average sent $11399 to the feds, and got back $11165 in federal services, or something; a difference of $234.

So, why not impose a NH state waterfront dock fee of $234/dock as a way to even it all out. By paying $234 to the state, and deducting it off your federal income tax, it will zero it out on an individual basis ...... and totally lessens the financial pain .... by turning it into a financial gain.

Is this pure genius or what! ........

No taking a $234 federal tax deduction does not put the $234 bucks back in your pocket. It just means in theory that $234 is not subject to federal income tax which at the end of the day you might realize a fraction of a penny back in your pocket.... so no it is not a "zero out".

What would make more sense is impose a $234 fee on all welfare recipient benefits, they don't pay income taxes anyways so might as well have them pay their "fair share" of other peoples money.

tummyman · 01-24-2019, 12:21 PM

Somehow I think this subject got a little off track. I just read HB682 that was the original question. What I se is that the proposal increases the fees when you apply for a dock permit from $200 to the new amount of $400 plus changes the added fee of $2 per sq. ft of area to $6 for a permanent dock, and a fee change for seasonal docks from $1 to $3 per sq. ft of area changed. This is a fee that you pay to DES if you want a dock, or change your existing dock for whatever reason. It has nothing to do with property taxation. As I read it, let's say you want a permanent dock that is 6X40 or 240 sq. ft. The fee currently is $680. If this bill is passed, the fee would go to $1840....a substantial change. Or, if the permit is requested for a seasonal dock, the fee would go from $440 to $1120. These are substantial fee increases and not tax deductible. If you want to add a dock section of 6X10 ft, the fee for a seasonal dock would go from $$260 to $580. Same issues will happen if you apply for a permit to repair your dock, but that fee goes from $200 to $400 only. Message here....if you plan to do any repairs or expansion, get your permit requests in now before the fees change, as I believe the permits are valid for 5 years. BTW, theres is also a section (IVB) in HB682 that is not a complete sentence that may cap the fee at $300, so there may be more twists and turns.

The second item that this topic elicited responses to has to do with taxation of these structures. It is obvious that the taxation of a dock varies by town. Some towns do not tax at all. And taxation may or may not be shared as a Federal tax deduction, since property taxes are capped at $10,000. Separate topic.

Disclaimer....I am no lawyer and what I wrote above is just my best interpretation of what I read in HB682. Remember, these "bills" are written so folks have no idea what the legislature is doing. I certainly think others need to chime in to validate or refute the data I presented.

Descant · 01-24-2019, 03:12 PM

I don't think you need to be a lawyer to figure out DES wants more money. Maybe a Finance Manager, LOL?

lagoon · 02-04-2019, 05:44 PM

Typical, it is a money grab disguised as protecting lakes. Those of us who have been here for many years work hard to ensure we are responsible to care for these beautiful lakes. This is a further example of driving out the middle class and have only the million dollar club left.

01-23-2019, 09:44 PM	#9
Descant Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Merrimack and Welch Island Posts: 4,378 Thanks: 1,353 Thanked 1,628 Times in 1,060 Posts	Btla My error. Board of Land Tax Appeals for when you don't get local satisfaction. https://www.nh.gov/btla/

01-24-2019, 09:16 AM	#11
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,966 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	IMHO.... (and it is probably unpopular here) If you have a dock, seasonal or not, it should be taxed accordingly. I do understand that a permanent dock would have a much greater value than a seasonal dock that gets cranked up or taken in and out. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

01-24-2019, 09:32 AM	#13
WJT2 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Foxborough MA Posts: 176 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 4 Thanked 50 Times in 31 Posts	Double Tax You are already paying a property tax. The dock is attached to your property. ENOUGH on NEW TAXES.

01-24-2019, 09:33 AM	#14
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,762 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,014 Times in 739 Posts	From a January 19, 2019 article in the Union Leader, 'NH paid 314-million more to the feds than it received', every NH resident on average sent $11399 to the feds, and got back $11165 in federal services, or something; a difference of $234. So, why not impose a NH state waterfront dock fee of $234/dock as a way to even it all out. By paying $234 to the state, and deducting it off your federal income tax, it will zero it out on an individual basis ...... and totally lessens the financial pain .... by turning it into a financial gain. Is this pure genius or what! ........ __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

01-24-2019, 09:57 AM	#15
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,966 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	WJT2.... I am not proposing anything "NEW". Just tax the value of the property accordingly including the dock. Waterfront Property without a dock is worth $XX Waterfront Property with a dock (Seasonal) is worth $XXx Waterfront Property with a dock (Permanent) is worth $XXX It is pretty simple... Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

01-22-2019, 03:35 PM	#2
tummyman Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 840 Thanks: 258 Thanked 687 Times in 244 Posts	Most property assessments are on the actual property as of April 1st. So if you have a seasonal dock and it is not in the water on April 1st, I would question their assessing something that does not exist as of April 1st. Would be an interesting point to challenge them on for seasonal docks. My seasonal dock does not touch the legal boundary of my property.....it is about 2 inches off the property line. Wonder how they could assess me for that. Whole subject is a PITA.

01-24-2019, 06:02 AM	#10
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,748 Thanks: 752 Thanked 1,459 Times in 1,016 Posts	Tilton, if you don't get satisfaction from the town you can appeal to the Board of Land Appeals.

01-24-2019, 09:27 AM	#12
loonguy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Moultonborough near the Loon Center Posts: 196 Thanks: 60 Thanked 69 Times in 47 Posts	I agree that a dock, seasonal or permanent, enhances the value of the property and, consequently, should be reflected in the assessed value of lake front property. I recently replaced a permanent dock with a seasonal dock that gets cranked up and IMHO the seasonal dock is the better option; I no longer need to run a water circulator through the winter or be concerned about wind-blown ice damaging the dock. If I had a boathouse, I probably would have a different view, but that is not an option if your property does not have a boathouse that is grandfathered under prior law.

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01-24-2019, 10:32 AM	#16
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,582 Thanks: 3,223 Thanked 1,106 Times in 796 Posts	Food for thought Normally 'permanent structures' are taxed by the state and or towns. Consider a dock that is removed during the winter months a 'temporary structure', maybe we can have docks reclassified? __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

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01-24-2019, 12:21 PM	#18
tummyman Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 840 Thanks: 258 Thanked 687 Times in 244 Posts	Somehow I think this subject got a little off track. I just read HB682 that was the original question. What I se is that the proposal increases the fees when you apply for a dock permit from $200 to the new amount of $400 plus changes the added fee of $2 per sq. ft of area to $6 for a permanent dock, and a fee change for seasonal docks from $1 to $3 per sq. ft of area changed. This is a fee that you pay to DES if you want a dock, or change your existing dock for whatever reason. It has nothing to do with property taxation. As I read it, let's say you want a permanent dock that is 6X40 or 240 sq. ft. The fee currently is $680. If this bill is passed, the fee would go to $1840....a substantial change. Or, if the permit is requested for a seasonal dock, the fee would go from $440 to $1120. These are substantial fee increases and not tax deductible. If you want to add a dock section of 6X10 ft, the fee for a seasonal dock would go from $$260 to $580. Same issues will happen if you apply for a permit to repair your dock, but that fee goes from $200 to $400 only. Message here....if you plan to do any repairs or expansion, get your permit requests in now before the fees change, as I believe the permits are valid for 5 years. BTW, theres is also a section (IVB) in HB682 that is not a complete sentence that may cap the fee at $300, so there may be more twists and turns. The second item that this topic elicited responses to has to do with taxation of these structures. It is obvious that the taxation of a dock varies by town. Some towns do not tax at all. And taxation may or may not be shared as a Federal tax deduction, since property taxes are capped at $10,000. Separate topic. Disclaimer....I am no lawyer and what I wrote above is just my best interpretation of what I read in HB682. Remember, these "bills" are written so folks have no idea what the legislature is doing. I certainly think others need to chime in to validate or refute the data I presented.

The Following User Says Thank You to tummyman For This Useful Post:
Descant (01-24-2019)

01-24-2019, 03:12 PM	#19
Descant Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Merrimack and Welch Island Posts: 4,378 Thanks: 1,353 Thanked 1,628 Times in 1,060 Posts	Disclaimer I don't think you need to be a lawyer to figure out DES wants more money. Maybe a Finance Manager, LOL?

02-04-2019, 05:44 PM	#20
lagoon Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 87 Thanks: 35 Thanked 17 Times in 11 Posts	Typical, it is a money grab disguised as protecting lakes. Those of us who have been here for many years work hard to ensure we are responsible to care for these beautiful lakes. This is a further example of driving out the middle class and have only the million dollar club left.