Waterfront homeowners - what is the downside to owning?

ITD · 08-18-2017, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggd

It's actually both. Taxes are based on a per thousand assessment. So when values go up so do the assessments therefore razing taxes and if the rates go up also then so do taxes. In prosperous times they may both go up. We are assured of two things in life, death and taxes, even in the "live free or die state".

Actually no. It's complicated, but rising property values do not raise your taxes, the tax rate is adjusted when valuations (notice the plural) rise to keep the levy (total amount raised by the town) at the same level as the year before PLUS any increases voted for during appropriations. So the increase in your taxes is only due to new spending approved by the politicians and town meeting if applicable, not the increase in valuation. Just like your taxes won't go down if there is a real estate market crash, they just adjust the tax rate up to keep the levy (and your tax bill) the same, or to add insult to injury, more, because they ALWAYS spend more.

Now if you do something to your house to increase its value, like an addition, your property tax will increase because of that because you increased the value of your house beyond what the market increase was for that period. But if everything stays the same and for some reason (that will never happen) the politicians don't vote to increase spending that year, your tax bill would not increase, even if everyone's assessed value went up 5%.

Politicians like it when people think their taxes are going up because of a hot market, it takes the heat off of them, but it's not true.

If you really want to understand it, you can read up here on it: https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...ualv2-2014.pdf

Pay particular attention to the second paragraph in section 14.6 which pretty much summarizes what I just wrote.

Biggd · 08-18-2017, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

Actually no. It's complicated, but rising property values do not raise your taxes, the tax rate is adjusted when valuations (notice the plural) rise to keep the levy (total amount raised by the town) at the same level as the year before PLUS any increases voted for during appropriations. So the increase in your taxes is only due to new spending approved by the politicians and town meeting if applicable, not the increase in valuation. Just like your taxes won't go down if there is a real estate market crash, they just adjust the tax rate up to keep the levy (and your tax bill) the same, or to add insult to injury, more, because they ALWAYS spend more.

Now if you do something to your house to increase its value, like an addition, your property tax will increase because of that because you increased the value of your house beyond what the market increase was for that period. But if everything stays the same and for some reason (that will never happen) the politicians don't vote to increase spending that year, your tax bill would not increase, even if everyone's assessed value went up 5%.

Politicians like it when people think their taxes are going up because of a hot market, it takes the heat off of them, but it's not true.

If you really want to understand it, you can read up here on it: https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...ualv2-2014.pdf

Pay particular attention to the second paragraph in section 14.6 which pretty much summarizes what I just wrote.

I understand how the system works. There is a number that the town needs and they work the figures to reach that number. When times are tight they tighten their belts and when times are good they tend to spend more just like we do with our personal finances.

Newbiesaukee · 08-18-2017, 12:34 PM

Expenses aside, other than the important issues regarding lifestyle above, the next issue would be where on the Lake which is just as important.

Finally, depending on the property's elevation, flooding has/ does occur. This isn't important until it is.

Descant · 08-18-2017, 01:30 PM

"Politicians raise taxes". Not here. NH state taxes, BPT and BET are on the way down. Again. There were three bills filed last year (not resolved yet) to reduce or eliminate the Interest and Dividends Tax. NH trust laws and related issues are making NH a tax haven like Delaware and a couple of other states, drawing in outside money. A few years ago, the state (politicians) eliminated the Gambling Winnings tax.
With the largest state legislature in the US we all have neighbors who are "politicians" earning $100 a year. Making inaccurate statements like "politicians raise taxes" is insulting to these volunteers.

Town property taxes likewise are not the result of politicians actions. Spending is passed by Town Meeting in March. That's citizens voting for or against the budgets, not politicians.
Here endeth the rant.

WATERFRONT DOWNSIDE
I think there's a tendency to buy more toys that you then have to manage maintain, and store yourself. Swim rafts, PWC's, kayaks, canoes, a "family boat", a fishing boat and a ski boat when the kids are teens. That probably means a bigger dock. Docks and breakwaters are great and you may go for years with relatively little maintenance. Then, in one year the whole thing gets wiped out by moving ice floes. Bubblers won't prevent that, and not much help from insurance.

Fuel isn't a big part of owning and operating a boat, but if your boat is 40 feet away at your dock, I bet you'll use it a lot more. That's probably more on the UP-side. And you'll use it earlier in the spring and later in the fall. Also UP-side.

ITD · 08-18-2017, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Descant

"Politicians raise taxes". Not here. NH state taxes, BPT and BET are on the way down. Again. There were three bills filed last year (not resolved yet) to reduce or eliminate the Interest and Dividends Tax. NH trust laws and related issues are making NH a tax haven like Delaware and a couple of other states, drawing in outside money. A few years ago, the state (politicians) eliminated the Gambling Winnings tax.
With the largest state legislature in the US we all have neighbors who are "politicians" earning $100 a year. Making inaccurate statements like "politicians raise taxes" is insulting to these volunteers.

Town property taxes likewise are not the result of politicians actions. Spending is passed by Town Meeting in March. That's citizens voting for or against the budgets, not politicians.
Here endeth the rant.

WATERFRONT DOWNSIDE
I think there's a tendency to buy more toys that you then have to manage maintain, and store yourself. Swim rafts, PWC's, kayaks, canoes, a "family boat", a fishing boat and a ski boat when the kids are teens. That probably means a bigger dock. Docks and breakwaters are great and you may go for years with relatively little maintenance. Then, in one year the whole thing gets wiped out by moving ice floes. Bubblers won't prevent that, and not much help from insurance.

Fuel isn't a big part of owning and operating a boat, but if your boat is 40 feet away at your dock, I bet you'll use it a lot more. That's probably more on the UP-side. And you'll use it earlier in the spring and later in the fall. Also UP-side.

And town meeting is the purest form of democracy, unfortunately town meeting power has dwindled mostly due to towns folk seeking expediency during the meeting. That said though, the politicians control the budgets, come up with the budgets AND sell the budget at town meeting. It's still the politicians controlling most of it. I'll agree it's sweet when a town meeting slaps down spending, but it doesn't happen as much as it should.

Oh, and spare me the "insulting to volunteers" crap, they are politicians, if they can't take the heat they should go away.

tis · 08-18-2017, 02:36 PM

I can't imagine living life not on the lake. It's true, we pay a lot in taxes for the privilege but I hope they never go so high that we won't feel it is worth it. You do see people do things on the water that frustrate you. They have all been discussed on this forum. But you see all those things if you are in an association too. And the rules and regulations are tougher living on the lake but you get those plus more -usually- in an association. The difference is you would have to bear the responsibilities of things such a permits and repairs by yourself that an association might do for you. But for us, one of the things we didn't want when we first bought our own piece of heaven on the lake, was to be in an association and I am very glad we aren't. I guess as somebody said, it is easier to be with more people in an assn. but you still have neighbors.

And as far as taxes, I don't think most people have any clue what is really needed in a town and what is not. They just trust the people that run the town to do what is best. Unfortunately. I would love to see more people become informed. Most people have no idea.

winni83 · 08-18-2017, 03:11 PM

Agree with Tis, Samiam and others. Would not trade owning on the Lake for anything. You can still have neighbor issues, etc., but the pluses certainly outweigh the minuses. Research towns and taxes. Do you have school aged children? Will you be on a town maintained or a private road? Consider what exposure you want – we like the westerly exposure we have, but that afternoon sun can get hot – good shades on the westerly side help. What about the waterfront – a walk in sandy beach with a gradual drop off is great for children or grandchildren. Good water depth at the dock is essential. Boat traffic in front of the property should be considered. While I complain about being in a no wake zone, it is great for floating, kayaking, paddle boarding or just swimming. Downside is a longer time out to end of the no wake area and you can’t watch your kids, etc. ski or tube from the house. I could go on, but you get the idea.

08-18-2017, 12:34 PM	#3
Newbiesaukee Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Coral Gables, winter; Long Island, summer Posts: 1,354 Thanks: 948 Thanked 573 Times in 298 Posts	Expenses aside, other than the important issues regarding lifestyle above, the next issue would be where on the Lake which is just as important. Finally, depending on the property's elevation, flooding has/ does occur. This isn't important until it is. __________________ "You're only young once, but you can be immature forever."

08-18-2017, 01:30 PM	#4
Descant Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Merrimack and Welch Island Posts: 4,370 Thanks: 1,352 Thanked 1,625 Times in 1,057 Posts	"Politicians raise taxes". Not here. NH state taxes, BPT and BET are on the way down. Again. There were three bills filed last year (not resolved yet) to reduce or eliminate the Interest and Dividends Tax. NH trust laws and related issues are making NH a tax haven like Delaware and a couple of other states, drawing in outside money. A few years ago, the state (politicians) eliminated the Gambling Winnings tax. With the largest state legislature in the US we all have neighbors who are "politicians" earning $100 a year. Making inaccurate statements like "politicians raise taxes" is insulting to these volunteers. Town property taxes likewise are not the result of politicians actions. Spending is passed by Town Meeting in March. That's citizens voting for or against the budgets, not politicians. Here endeth the rant. WATERFRONT DOWNSIDE I think there's a tendency to buy more toys that you then have to manage maintain, and store yourself. Swim rafts, PWC's, kayaks, canoes, a "family boat", a fishing boat and a ski boat when the kids are teens. That probably means a bigger dock. Docks and breakwaters are great and you may go for years with relatively little maintenance. Then, in one year the whole thing gets wiped out by moving ice floes. Bubblers won't prevent that, and not much help from insurance. Fuel isn't a big part of owning and operating a boat, but if your boat is 40 feet away at your dock, I bet you'll use it a lot more. That's probably more on the UP-side. And you'll use it earlier in the spring and later in the fall. Also UP-side.

08-18-2017, 02:36 PM	#6
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,742 Thanks: 752 Thanked 1,459 Times in 1,016 Posts	I can't imagine living life not on the lake. It's true, we pay a lot in taxes for the privilege but I hope they never go so high that we won't feel it is worth it. You do see people do things on the water that frustrate you. They have all been discussed on this forum. But you see all those things if you are in an association too. And the rules and regulations are tougher living on the lake but you get those plus more -usually- in an association. The difference is you would have to bear the responsibilities of things such a permits and repairs by yourself that an association might do for you. But for us, one of the things we didn't want when we first bought our own piece of heaven on the lake, was to be in an association and I am very glad we aren't. I guess as somebody said, it is easier to be with more people in an assn. but you still have neighbors. And as far as taxes, I don't think most people have any clue what is really needed in a town and what is not. They just trust the people that run the town to do what is best. Unfortunately. I would love to see more people become informed. Most people have no idea.

08-18-2017, 03:11 PM	#7
winni83 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Moultonborough, NH Posts: 430 Thanks: 17 Thanked 213 Times in 135 Posts	Agree with Tis, Samiam and others. Would not trade owning on the Lake for anything. You can still have neighbor issues, etc., but the pluses certainly outweigh the minuses. Research towns and taxes. Do you have school aged children? Will you be on a town maintained or a private road? Consider what exposure you want – we like the westerly exposure we have, but that afternoon sun can get hot – good shades on the westerly side help. What about the waterfront – a walk in sandy beach with a gradual drop off is great for children or grandchildren. Good water depth at the dock is essential. Boat traffic in front of the property should be considered. While I complain about being in a no wake zone, it is great for floating, kayaking, paddle boarding or just swimming. Downside is a longer time out to end of the no wake area and you can’t watch your kids, etc. ski or tube from the house. I could go on, but you get the idea.