Hb 162 News

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Islander

A 24' Wellcraft is about the same size and weight as the Hartman boat. There would have been a collision but perhaps no death. The Littfield boat was much heavier, had more inertia and had a high bow causing it to go up and over the Hartman boat. Have you seen the re-enactment photo?

Yes I have seen the re-anactment photo. If I recall it correctly the Littlefield boat overran the stern of the Hartman's boat, crossing and exitting out the side. Mr Hartman was seated in the rear. If Littlefield had the "Mee'n'Mac" that night I doubt the outcome would have been much different. I believe the overrun would still have occurred. Do you recall the boat that ran up the Alton town docks a few years ago ? Or the 23' SeaRay that ended up on the pontoon boat this year ? Both show what happens when the bow contacts another surface. Now the Hartman's boat wouldn't have been as swamped and Littlefield and passengers would have undergone a larger "bump" but that's not the issue is it.

But the whole argument sounds odd to me because I thought the intention of speed limits was to reduce the likelyhood of a collision not reduce the post collision effects. On that thought I don't see how the Harman tragedy has much to do with a speed limit (short of your belief that boats such as Littlefield's will go away on a speed limited lake)

Originally Posted by Islander

If you own a Ferrari there is nowhere you can go to open it up legally. A valid analogy would be if there were some highways with speed limits and some highways with none. If RT 93 in NH had no speed limit but all other highways in New England did, what would happen? Rt 93 would be where owners of high performance cars would come to so they could drive at 120 plus. This would not be a safe thing for a family car going 65 on Rt 93.

Other than Winni there are not many large bodies of water around without speed limits. There is of course the Great Lakes and the Atlantic. And by the way, Lake Champlain is a Great Lake and is not a U.S. lake.

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey in the above. Do you believe that the problems on the lake mostly stem from the importation of boats into the lake and that should a speed limit become law that these boats won't trailered in ? Or something else ? I'm trying to avoid assumptions here.

In regard to the safety of family car ... well that's a debate for another forum but it does spark an idea. Say you're in the family car doing 65 and Mario Andretti comes by you at 120 in his Ferrari. You know it's Mario and not somebody else. In this limited hypothetical situation would you be afraid or worried about your safety ?

[Hottrucks]

I don't understand why just because you can't get along with each other on Winni why did you have to drag the rest of the states lakes into it??? I don't think that Half the people know whats going on with there own lakes. I for one have a lot of fun out on the lakes and sometimes I go over 45 sometimes over 90. But you know something when I do it I do it in a safe manner on smaller less populated lakes ( in a boat less than 20 feet and with less than 200 Hp) in other words I use reasonable and prudence as my law. I never fight with sail boaters they have there time and I have mine and the skiers have their's, we all get along and we all stay close to shore on the weekend when people with less time on the lake are there. They may not know when their time is on the lake. Never an accident, never a miss hap, I have pulled in sail boats when the wind drops off and borrowed paddles to get my junk back to the shore.

It Ain't the speed people, it's the People

and if you think 90 is fast, it is, I wear a life jacket that cost more than most people have tied up in all their saftey equipment on board. WHY? Safety is more important to me than most!! But this is what I enjoy and believe it or not, the locals love to see something different and are always asking how was it running the other day it looked .............

I would be willing to bet the people that we are B*tch'n about, the bad boaters, aren't even on this or any other board because of their "I don't care attitiude". Besides if HB162 passes they will just go somewhere else to ruin it for them also!

Just my $.02
thanx for letting me post

[Islander]

Mee-n-Mac

Fast boats are drawn to Winni because its one of the last lakes they can go to that doesn't have a speed limit. Trailered in, rent a slip, buy a cabin, whatever.

I would like to see Winni more about paddles and less about speed. More about nature, less about noise. More conservation, less waste. More loons, fewer GFBL. More courtesy, less get out of my way.

A speed limit will not solve these problems. Its just a step in the right direction.

[Hottrucks]

Originally Posted by Islander

Mee-n-Mac

Fast boats are drawn to Winni because its one of the last lakes they can go to that doesn't have a speed limit. Trailered in, rent a slip, buy a cabin, whatever.

I would like to see Winni more about paddles and less about speed. More about nature, less about noise. More conservation, less waste. More loons, fewer GFBL. More courtesy, less get out of my way.

A speed limit will not solve these problems. Its just a step in the right direction.

What is a GFBL??
I agree with more courtesty but it seems that you want all trees and stuff but I don't see the go fast act bad people complaining about all these little boats that are in the way all the time and people pulling there kids around in tubes I don't think its fair for any one group. Just find the time when the lake meets your needs and use it then. It seems to me that you just left the dock in your sail boat and there's not a breeze in sight!! That would be just as dumb as heading to the broads in a row boat on the 4 th of July??

[Islander]

Hotrocks

GFBL = go fast be loud

And yes, I want all trees and stuff.

And I live on an island, so that makes boating a 24/7 thing. When my wife says get a gallon of milk I can't wait around for my boating karma to be just right.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Hottrucks

"...That would be just as dumb as heading to the broads in a rowboat on the 4th of July??..."

Something's really wrong here.

What's wrong with "heading to the Broads in a rowboat?" My previous photos were taken from a rowboat "heading for the Broads" -- and I've seen smaller, powered inflatables out there -- Mom, Dad, and Kiddie! Surely the lake is for everybody.

Are small craft...in harm's way?

And is this why?

[chase1]

Originally Posted by Bear Lover

I don't think 32' Carvers belong on Winni either.

Its not about the "type" of boat. HPBs and smaller power boats are being pushed off the lake by an ever increasing need for size and speed. It isn't right, it isn't fair and it isn't safe.

Enough is enough!

Why do you think the lake is reserved for small boats?


Chase1

[Hottrucks]

I guess going to get a gallon of milk , which I understand, May be something you need to do, waiting for your "Karma" to be right isn't the answer. It's kinda like going into the broads in a row boat "on the 4th of July" Or trying to go 100 mph in the dark? I guess I could complain that there are no lights on the lake so how can I see my way around or I could use some common sense

Please do not think I'm attacking anyone I just don't understand why more Common Sense can't be used. Allow the MP to do there job, maybe we need to have every row boat and paddle things registered so they can have some more $$$$. We can't stop stupidity ( a result of poor training) but with the MP being in more places and with more equipment they could do a better job at policeing the lake and enforce the laws we have??

As far as your trees lets try a few less condos or those babillion dollar homes that have created this over crowding in the first place.

How about a fee being imposed on lake houses to support ever growing lake issues and possibly tighter building regs.

It seems to me that when ever I'm near the ocean that they do not have these problems I guess I don't understand that either???

[BroadHopper]

Let see now. Ban all boats 30' and over. Ban all Hp boats. Because pontoom boats and bass boats are the biggest offenders. Ban them.
Then the PWC are also big offenders. Ban them.

I think Merrill Fay just wants to have sailboats. Winnipesaukee is not a great place to sail. Challeging because the winds shift around the local hills. maybe we should ban ALL boats, and let it be done with. We will have our nice quiet pristine lake.

Anyone wants to join me for HB 666? Ban all motorized and sail boats from NH waters?? Rep. Pilliod would LOVE that!!!!!!!

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Islander

Mee-n-Mac

Fast boats are drawn to Winni because its one of the last lakes they can go to that doesn't have a speed limit. Trailered in, rent a slip, buy a cabin, whatever.

I would like to see Winni more about paddles and less about speed. More about nature, less about noise. More conservation, less waste. More loons, fewer GFBL. More courtesy, less get out of my way.

A speed limit will not solve these problems. Its just a step in the right direction.

Where do you get your info????? Very few lakes in US have speed limits laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Where do you get your info????? Very few lakes in US have speed limits laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think what islander is saying is that because there isn't a speed limit the performance boats come here. And by extension if there's a speed limit they won't (as much). I tend to disagree because I think people come to boat on Winni because of it's inherent properties. There's always been a minority segment of the population that is performance oriented and they aren't going to buy a pedestrian bowrider because of a speed limit. As I said earlier people still buy Ferrari's etc even in our speed limited US. Should HB-162 pass I predict the performance boaters will still be here, still come, because of Winni's inherent properties. High speed isn't the only reason they boat here.

Now all of this is interesting speculation but since there's no way I can prove, or disprove, any of it I guess I've said enough. One thing islander and I share is a concern of what the lake will be like in 10 or 20 years. I worry less about the performance boats and more about the sheer number of boats but that's a whole different topic.

[chase1]

Originally Posted by Islander

Chase

There is one statistic you may have missed. Not long ago one of our Bear Island neighbors was killed by a high performance boat. That boat was going at a speed that will be illegal if HB162 is passed. For most island residents that is the only statistic we need.

Islander,

Other laws were broken by the operator of that boat and there is no reason to conclude your proposed law would have made a difference.

I know that many will quibble and try to explain away or excuse this "statistic"..[/QUOTE]

Yet you excuse all accident statistics.

What about the "personal freedom" of the rest of us that don't need to go 90 MPH.[/QUOTE]


You are free not to go 90 with current regulations. knock your socks off.


Offshore boats and huge cabin cruisers were designed for the ocean, not 150' (or less) from our docks.[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about...Should small boats not be allowed on the Ocean???? Do you just have something against the Boating Industry.

Chase1

[Islander]

I think you are misreading my post. I never said anything about small boats and the ocean.

I wouldn't live on an island if I didn't like boats.

You must work in the boating industry, right?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Islander

A 24' Wellcraft is about the same size and weight as the Hartman boat. There would have been a collision but perhaps no death. The Littfield boat was much heavier, had more inertia and had a high bow causing it to go up and over the Hartman boat. Have you seen the re-enactment photo?

At 28mph in a boat such as Littlefields the bow does not have to be high in the air. The Baja can be run flat at such speed as 28mph is plenty over planing speed. If it was high is was due to his inattentiveness, improper handling or alcohol, not a reflection on the type of boat. Tabs are not exactly hard to run...As a matter of fact after driving a 38 Fountain Lightning about a month ago at 28mph the boat rides so flat and low in the bow that you have to be cautious in cornering as it is easy to "hook" the nose. Again, proper tab and trim use counteracts this.

I am all for the 25mph night limit, darkness and inattentiveness can be a killer however 45mph is still a joke during the day. There is no GFBL at my dock, although speed limit or not there will be in the spring!

[overlook]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Ah'm sellin' this here Bass Boat. Nuthin' wrong with it. Jes' takin' bestest offer.
Yuh unnerstan', Ah ain't afeered of nuthin' on Winnipesaukee.
Have Ah got the rite forum?

Nice arpiture rate, bet it was real sunny that day. It is pictures like that help you convince the nieve.

Got any ufo ones too?

[ApS]

Sorry, no still-photos of a UFO .

However, somebody else got this video of a UFO about 30 feet long.

Pretty convincing, I'd say -- even to skeptics. You can even count the number of "beings" with it! It's going pretty fast and the UFO is a little fuzzy, but how many "beings" do you see?

(It's OK if you don't get the same count with each viewing).

.

[dreaminofthelake]

We have been hearing about HB162, the proposed speed limit law for some time now. When will the house, senate and governor vote on this so we will finally know if it passes or fails?

[overlook]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Sorry, no still-photos of a UFO .

However, somebody else got this video of a UFO about 30 feet long.

Pretty convincing, I'd say -- even to skeptics. You can even count the number of "beings" with it! It's going pretty fast and the UFO is a little fuzzy, but how many "beings" do you see?

(It's OK if you don't get the same count with each viewing).

.

You seem to be out of the loop here, let me retort--- Lake Winni. has a safe passage rule and yes it does get pusshed- mostly by impatient individuals who choose to plane off early. Never the less that video is not at a NH lake, and further more what are the rules of navigation of that particular waterway?
Not all waterways have the same rules that NH has, That pass for all we know was leagle. Have you ever been to the Lakes Of The Ozarks?

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by overlook

You seem to be out of the loop here, let me retort--- Lake Winni. has a safe passage rule and yes it does get pusshed- mostly by impatient individuals who choose to plane off early. Never the less that video is not at a NH lake, and further more what are the rules of navigation of that particular waterway?
Not all waterways have the same rules that NH has, That pass for all we know was leagle. Have you ever been to the Lakes Of The Ozarks?

If that video was on Winni I'm sure the opposition would claim the driver had some wine and therefore it has nothing to do with speed.

If a boat were to hit the Mount at 130 mph they would say the accident does not argue for a speed limit, because it was already a violation of the 150' rule.

[Cal]

That lake certainly was dangerously crowded.
And what makes you think the 150' rule wasn't obeyed. Camera lenses can distort depth perception.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

If that video was on Winni I'm sure the opposition would claim the driver had some wine and therefore it has nothing to do with speed.

If a boat were to hit the Mount at 130 mph they would say the accident does not argue for a speed limit, because it was already a violation of the 150' rule.

And when was the last time someone crashed into the mount? And how often are boats doing 130mph on Winni? Your worst case what-if's are a real stretch...

[Cal]

If anyone's going to hit the Mount , they don't deserve to be on the lake at ANY speed.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Ski Man

"...The statute [HB162] clearly states "but any speed in excess of the limit specified in this section or established as hereinafter authorized shall be prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable or prudent and that it is unlawful..."

Had I ever contributed to WinnFABS, I would have advised them against such phraseology.

Originally Posted by Ski Man

"...I am unable to find a single case in New Hampshire where a speeding violation was dismissed expressly on the basis that the posted speed limit was less than "reasonable and prudent" because prevailing conditions were ideal, traffic was light, or such..."

One can't help but note that this state frequently finds itself behind the 8-ball in its quaint laws and lawmaking skills.

Nationally, the trend in state Supreme Court rulings is to find the "reasonable and prudent" phase "unconstitutionally vague".

For example, Montana once had a "reasonable and prudent" speed limit on its highways. It was tossed out because it was too vague—unconstitutionally so. In other words, if you had a Porsche, 160-MPH was OK. But 100-MPH in a Ford Focus was not.

Today, Montana has a new "maximum speed"—75-MPH —a quantifiable number. (Which is not vague at all). It's like adding, "you shall operate your boat with common sense".

With its recovery from its own recent scandalous history, the NH Supreme Court is likely to toss out "reasonable and prudent" as well. It will only take the first HB162 violation to test it—probably of a wealthy speedboater in BIG TROUBLE.

It may take years to challenge—or may not happen at all—but it's already showing leaks.

[Senter Cove Guy]

From today's Citizen Online.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...171/-1/CITIZEN

[ITD]

That letter tells it like it is, good job writer.