What do they check for when pulled over by the MP

Woodsy · 09-15-2015, 08:44 AM

ITD...

During the spring runoff, with the dam wide open the current in the Weirs channel under the bridge where it necks down (narrowest point) is easily 5-6 knots! The current is moving at such a speed as to cause white caps.

I think the normal current in the channel is 1-1.5 knots depending on the dam outflow.

Of course you have to change your speed to overcome the current... If you are in a 2 knot current you need a minimum of 3 knots to maintain forward motion...

Woodsy

ITD · 09-15-2015, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

ITD...

During the spring runoff, with the dam wide open the current in the Weirs channel under the bridge where it necks down (narrowest point) is easily 5-6 knots! The current is moving at such a speed as to cause white caps.

I think the normal current in the channel is 1-1.5 knots depending on the dam outflow.

Of course you have to change your speed to overcome the current... If you are in a 2 knot current you need a minimum of 3 knots to maintain forward motion...

Woodsy

6 knots is 6.9 mph..... no way. My boat idles at about 4 or 5 mph and with the dam wide open I have never had any problem making 3+ mph against the current in that channel. AND you don't have to change your speed, you just go slower relative to the land.

Woodsy · 09-15-2015, 04:50 PM

ITD... I respectfully disagree

ITD · 09-15-2015, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

ITD... I respectfully disagree

You and will have to meet on our jet skis next spring, when the dam is wide open and do some tests. I'll bring a hand held gps and buy you a beer at the naswa after so we can tabulate data.

Woodsy · 09-15-2015, 06:44 PM

Sounds like a plan!

Woodsy

Rich · 09-16-2015, 07:19 AM

Are you two referring to different data?

When the law says 6 mph, isn't it speaking of the speed over water, not speed over ground?

Since boats operate in water I would think that headway speed has no reference to speed over ground, because current could in fact affect the speed as measured over ground.

So I would think a radar gun is more useful to measure speed over water than a GPS which without knowledge of the current measures speed over ground.

I have a sport type radar gun if you want to borrow it for your test.

HellRaZoR004 · 09-16-2015, 08:30 AM

Radar isn't going to give you a different reading than GPS. If you want to measure the flow through the channel you will need to somehow float through the channel and take a GPS reading (I don't think they have a flow meter). With this you can then calculate what your effective speed would be without current.

Dave R · 09-16-2015, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004

Radar isn't going to give you a different reading than GPS. If you want to measure the flow through the channel you will need to somehow float through the channel and take a GPS reading (I don't think they have a flow meter). With this you can then calculate what your effective speed would be without current.

Agreed. They will show the same speed, as long as the radar is used correctly. The NH "headway speed" definition does not indicate if the 6 MPH is relative to the water or the ground, so the law is ambiguous. That said, maintaining 6 MPH over ground against a 3 MPH current would generate a massive wake (9 MPH over water) and I am certain that a ticket would result if caught. I am also confident that the ticket would stand in district court, but might fail on appeal, depends on how the appellate judge interprets the headway speed definition. If I were the judge, I would tie the headway speed definition to the obvious essence of, and reason for, the no wake law and the appeal would fail.

HellRaZoR004 · 09-16-2015, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

If I were the judge, I would tie the headway speed definition to the obvious essence of, and reason for, the no wake law and the appeal would fail.

If you can prove you are unable to maintain control with a lesser speed through the current then I disagree, otherwise the appeal should fail per your logic.

BTW: this comes up every year. I just find it amusing.

Woodsy · 09-16-2015, 10:35 AM

DaveR...

The MP wouldn't even ticket you... the key wording in the law here is "maintain steerage". This is the caveat that allows the operator to exceed the 6MPH stated in the RSA. So, if you have to go 9 MPH to over come a 3 MPH current, yes there would be a wake, your ground speed would be 6 MPH, BUT.. you are REQUIRED to maintain steerage and thus control of your vessel so a large wake @ 9 MPH could be easily justified... You see it all the time in the spring channel, MP & pleasure boats alike.

Now that was going against a current... But how about going with? I have seen boats turned sideways by the spring current in the Weirs Channel. Going with the strong spring current your groundspeed would be 9-10 MPH easy...

Woodsy

Broken Glass · 09-16-2015, 10:48 AM

If you run your boat at idle,(or any other set RPM) through the channel, in both directions, with your GPS functioning properly,then add the two speeds together and divide by two, you will have your hull speed over ground without any current. Subtract your calculated hull ground speed at set RPM, from your speed running with the current, and you will have the speed of the current in the channel. I have done this a few times and the speed varies within the chanel. It is determined by not only the width of the channel, by by the depth of the water.

Dave R · 09-16-2015, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

DaveR...

The MP wouldn't even ticket you... the key wording in the law here is "maintain steerage". This is the caveat that allows the operator to exceed the 6MPH stated in the RSA. So, if you have to go 9 MPH to over come a 3 MPH current, yes there would be a wake, your ground speed would be 6 MPH, BUT.. you are REQUIRED to maintain steerage and thus control of your vessel so a large wake @ 9 MPH could be easily justified... You see it all the time in the spring channel, MP & pleasure boats alike.

Now that was going against a current... But how about going with? I have seen boats turned sideways by the spring current in the Weirs Channel. Going with the strong spring current your groundspeed would be 9-10 MPH easy...

Woodsy

If you are going against a 3 MPH current, you can maintain steerage at a much lower speed over ground than you can over slack water. My boat would maintain steerage at 0 MPH over ground if the current was 3.8 MPH (my speed over slack water at idle).

Rich · 09-16-2015, 03:02 PM

My point about the radar, was not to be standing on the non-moving ground while taking the reading, of course that would provide the same speed as the GPS.

The problem would be to be on a platform (such as a boat) that was moving with the current. Of course, that speed would be variable, due to the influences of many different factors.

But as always, this is always confusing and will always be debated to the n-degree!

But if anyone would like to play with my radar gun, let me know.

Woodsy · 09-16-2015, 03:03 PM

Dave R...

You misinterpret the my point & the RSA... you cannot go FASTER than 6 MPH, unless you can demonstrate that conditions or that your vessel requires it.. Donzi 22 Blackhawk comes to mind. Mine idled at 8 MPH

However...

There is no requirement for you to go SLOWER than 6 MPH at any point in time.

Woodsy

4Fun · 09-16-2015, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Dave R...

You misinterpret the my point & the RSA... you cannot go FASTER than 6 MPH, unless you can demonstrate that conditions or that your vessel requires it.. Donzi 22 Blackhawk comes to mind. Mine idled at 8 MPH

However...

There is no requirement for you to go SLOWER than 6 MPH at any point in time.

Woodsy

I am not sure a boat idling at 8MPH allows you to exceed "Headway" speed. You could still go in and out of gear, maintain control, and stay under 6MPH.

If for some reason the hull design did not allow for steerage below 6MPH you may have an argument.

tc_mike · 09-16-2015, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Fun

I am not sure a boat idling at 8MPH allows you to exceed "Headway" speed. You could still go in and out of gear, maintain control, and stay under 6MPH.

6 or 7 years ago I was stopped by MP in the weirs channel and told that a vehicle's idle speed is no excuse to make a wake and that some boats need to use the shifter in order to prevent throwing a wake. Just a warning and not really an unpleasant experience.

BroadHopper · 09-16-2015, 04:53 PM

There was a tournament today. HQ was at PBM. At idle speed on my boat is 7 mph. Even at that speed my boat wanders left and right, so I had to make constant adjustments. The bass boats or passing me through the channel and surprisingly only making a ripple. Marine patrol was in the channel and allowing thus behavior. My guess is the MP is more concerned about the wake than headway speed of 6 mph?

As I was traveling through Paugus some of those bass boats were screaming! Lots of PWCs at Paugus end of the channel having fun! One actually cross my wake within 50 feet of my stern!

Not sure what happen, a patrol boat with lights on went through the Weirs Channel at planning speed toward Paugus Bay. Chatter on the radio was very confusing, something about a woman place in the ambulance near the information booth on Weirs Boulevard.

noreast · 09-16-2015, 05:53 PM

I was wondering what was going on, There were bass boats flying around all over. The only stupid move all day though was a premier pontoon with dual 300's went by about 30 or 40' away at around 40mph passing to port. Were both lucky I was paying attention.

Skip · 09-16-2015, 06:25 PM

Just a point of clarification. A summons for wake/headway speed is a violation. You can have a hearing before a district/circuit court judge, but that court's decision is final, you cannot appeal the verdict.

It has been a number of years now where the State court system ended appeals of violation level offenses.

BroadHopper · 09-17-2015, 07:26 AM

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/index...3-bass-fishing

And every boaters fear, a PWC making a U-turn in front of your craft!

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/index...eets-bass-boat

09-15-2015, 08:44 AM	#1
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,965 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	ITD... During the spring runoff, with the dam wide open the current in the Weirs channel under the bridge where it necks down (narrowest point) is easily 5-6 knots! The current is moving at such a speed as to cause white caps. I think the normal current in the channel is 1-1.5 knots depending on the dam outflow. Of course you have to change your speed to overcome the current... If you are in a 2 knot current you need a minimum of 3 knots to maintain forward motion... Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

09-15-2015, 04:50 PM	#3
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,965 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	ITD... I respectfully disagree __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

09-15-2015, 06:44 PM	#5
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,965 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	Sounds like a plan! Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

09-16-2015, 07:19 AM	#6
Rich Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Derry / Gilford Posts: 1,245 Thanks: 72 Thanked 345 Times in 235 Posts	Are you two referring to different data? When the law says 6 mph, isn't it speaking of the speed over water, not speed over ground? Since boats operate in water I would think that headway speed has no reference to speed over ground, because current could in fact affect the speed as measured over ground. So I would think a radar gun is more useful to measure speed over water than a GPS which without knowledge of the current measures speed over ground. I have a sport type radar gun if you want to borrow it for your test. __________________ Don't listen to me, obviously I don't understand what I'm talking about! Let's help each other save time and money: WinniGas.com

09-16-2015, 10:35 AM	#10
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,965 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	DaveR... The MP wouldn't even ticket you... the key wording in the law here is "maintain steerage". This is the caveat that allows the operator to exceed the 6MPH stated in the RSA. So, if you have to go 9 MPH to over come a 3 MPH current, yes there would be a wake, your ground speed would be 6 MPH, BUT.. you are REQUIRED to maintain steerage and thus control of your vessel so a large wake @ 9 MPH could be easily justified... You see it all the time in the spring channel, MP & pleasure boats alike. Now that was going against a current... But how about going with? I have seen boats turned sideways by the spring current in the Weirs Channel. Going with the strong spring current your groundspeed would be 9-10 MPH easy... Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

09-16-2015, 08:30 AM	#7
HellRaZoR004 Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Litchfield/Gilford Posts: 828 Thanks: 233 Thanked 224 Times in 131 Posts	Radar isn't going to give you a different reading than GPS. If you want to measure the flow through the channel you will need to somehow float through the channel and take a GPS reading (I don't think they have a flow meter). With this you can then calculate what your effective speed would be without current.

09-16-2015, 10:48 AM	#11
Broken Glass Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Atkinson,NH/Rattlesnake Island Posts: 164 Thanks: 330 Thanked 67 Times in 28 Posts	Ground speed/air speed If you run your boat at idle,(or any other set RPM) through the channel, in both directions, with your GPS functioning properly,then add the two speeds together and divide by two, you will have your hull speed over ground without any current. Subtract your calculated hull ground speed at set RPM, from your speed running with the current, and you will have the speed of the current in the channel. I have done this a few times and the speed varies within the chanel. It is determined by not only the width of the channel, by by the depth of the water. Last edited by Broken Glass; 09-16-2015 at 11:08 AM. Reason: I left out half of the equation!

09-16-2015, 03:02 PM	#13
Rich Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Derry / Gilford Posts: 1,245 Thanks: 72 Thanked 345 Times in 235 Posts	My point about the radar, was not to be standing on the non-moving ground while taking the reading, of course that would provide the same speed as the GPS. The problem would be to be on a platform (such as a boat) that was moving with the current. Of course, that speed would be variable, due to the influences of many different factors. But as always, this is always confusing and will always be debated to the n-degree! But if anyone would like to play with my radar gun, let me know. __________________ Don't listen to me, obviously I don't understand what I'm talking about! Let's help each other save time and money: WinniGas.com

09-16-2015, 03:03 PM	#14
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,965 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	Dave R... You misinterpret the my point & the RSA... you cannot go FASTER than 6 MPH, unless you can demonstrate that conditions or that your vessel requires it.. Donzi 22 Blackhawk comes to mind. Mine idled at 8 MPH However... There is no requirement for you to go SLOWER than 6 MPH at any point in time. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

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09-16-2015, 04:53 PM	#17
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,574 Thanks: 3,209 Thanked 1,103 Times in 794 Posts	Bass Boats There was a tournament today. HQ was at PBM. At idle speed on my boat is 7 mph. Even at that speed my boat wanders left and right, so I had to make constant adjustments. The bass boats or passing me through the channel and surprisingly only making a ripple. Marine patrol was in the channel and allowing thus behavior. My guess is the MP is more concerned about the wake than headway speed of 6 mph? As I was traveling through Paugus some of those bass boats were screaming! Lots of PWCs at Paugus end of the channel having fun! One actually cross my wake within 50 feet of my stern! Not sure what happen, a patrol boat with lights on went through the Weirs Channel at planning speed toward Paugus Bay. Chatter on the radio was very confusing, something about a woman place in the ambulance near the information booth on Weirs Boulevard. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

09-16-2015, 05:53 PM	#18
noreast Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 648 Thanks: 316 Thanked 120 Times in 93 Posts	I was wondering what was going on, There were bass boats flying around all over. The only stupid move all day though was a premier pontoon with dual 300's went by about 30 or 40' away at around 40mph passing to port. Were both lucky I was paying attention.

09-16-2015, 06:25 PM	#19
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	Cannot appeal a violation Just a point of clarification. A summons for wake/headway speed is a violation. You can have a hearing before a district/circuit court judge, but that court's decision is final, you cannot appeal the verdict. It has been a number of years now where the State court system ended appeals of violation level offenses.

09-17-2015, 07:26 AM	#20
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,574 Thanks: 3,209 Thanked 1,103 Times in 794 Posts	Fishing Tournament http://www.laconiadailysun.com/index...3-bass-fishing And every boaters fear, a PWC making a U-turn in front of your craft! http://www.laconiadailysun.com/index...eets-bass-boat __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.