|
Home | Forums | Gallery | Webcams | Blogs | YouTube Channel | Classifieds | Calendar | Register | FAQ | Donate | Members List | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
10-15-2014, 10:08 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 310
Thanks: 48
Thanked 45 Times in 33 Posts
|
Did I miss a memo with the price of boats?
I must have missed something..or was late for class...what happened to the price of boats in the past decade?
Moving back to NH in a few months from 4+ years in FL. Getting a boat and getting back on Winni is one of our top 5 things to do. But looking at the price of new and used boats compared to when I last bought one...well I am astounded. To clarify, I am 40 and have been boating since I was in diapers. I have owned many bowriders with my last purchase for a new one was in 1999 for an 18' Maxum with Trailder for $15,000. Sold & brokered it with Meredith Marine back in 07/08 for about $7000, when it was about 7-8 years old. This was the going retail rate for a boat back then. So nothing special about the boat. Not top of the line, just a good mid range craft. So why are similar 18' models that are about 7-8 years old now selling for $15,000? Something new and comparable is well over $30k. What lesson did I miss in not buying a boat in the past 6-7 years? It is almost as if I kepy my 1999 Maxum it would still be worth 6k today! |
10-16-2014, 01:26 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,980
Thanks: 246
Thanked 739 Times in 440 Posts
|
Supply and demand. A bad economy hits boat builders early and hard, so they took a severe beating in the last decade and there were fewer builders making fewer boats. With the economy now getting better, people are competing to buy limited numbers of boats, driving the prices up.
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post: | ||
secondcurve (10-16-2014) |
10-16-2014, 05:33 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 297
Thanks: 67
Thanked 152 Times in 79 Posts
|
I was shocked - a couple years back I was able to sell my 24ft crownline for almost as much as I paid new (I had it for 3 years but didn't put many hours on it).
Tractor prices are even worse than boat prices. To heck with "off the lot depreciation." I've made money re-selling tractors I purchased brand new!! |
10-16-2014, 06:50 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 310
Thanks: 48
Thanked 45 Times in 33 Posts
|
Seriously, a boat is a luxury item. I see what you mean with a used car connection. The price of used cars has gone up with the bad economy, I get that. But cars are (arguably) a very real necessity. A boat is not and I cannot see the justification.
|
10-16-2014, 07:00 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Merrymeeting Lake, New Durham
Posts: 2,224
Thanks: 302
Thanked 798 Times in 367 Posts
|
For a bit of fun (and shock!), last year I went on the Four Winns website and built a boat that pretty much matches the one I bought in 2002. The retail price had literally doubled, and then some!
Certainly gives added incentive to continue to take care of the one I have! |
The Following User Says Thank You to Merrymeeting For This Useful Post: | ||
gillygirl (10-16-2014) |
Sponsored Links |
|
10-16-2014, 08:05 AM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Nashua/Winnisquam
Posts: 282
Thanks: 106
Thanked 96 Times in 49 Posts
|
Quote:
And most cars you buy now, you can make them last for ten or more years, creating another shortage of used vehicles. Maybe there's a shortage of used boats because of the economy, people just are keeping that they have, instead of paying the huge prices they want for newer ones now. |
|
10-16-2014, 08:19 AM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bedford, NH; Meredith, NH
Posts: 902
Thanks: 245
Thanked 785 Times in 314 Posts
|
Align with a reputable marina and buy used...
The price of a new boat is outrageous, but there are some very good deals to be had on used boats. Because they are so expensive new, many folks take out long-term loans, (e.g., 10 years ), and then get a couple years into it and either their personal/family situation has changed or they think, "what the heck am I doing paying for a boat over 10 years", and they dump it.
When we were in the market for a boat last year, we first decided on our needs and then aligned with a reputable marina on the lake to help us find what we wanted within our budget. It took a number of months to find the right used boat, but it ended up being a great decision. Good luck. MM |
10-16-2014, 08:38 AM | #8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Moultonborough
Posts: 3,537
Thanks: 1,577
Thanked 1,610 Times in 824 Posts
|
Quote:
Good luck with your shopping. I have to add, that I would look for a bit more hull length and decent deadrise for Winni. Any other lake and 18' would be fine, most times. |
|
10-16-2014, 08:38 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: the left coast (Portland)and West Alton
Posts: 1,361
Thanks: 63
Thanked 245 Times in 166 Posts
|
Hello, inflation!
|
10-16-2014, 03:36 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,980
Thanks: 246
Thanked 739 Times in 440 Posts
|
Inflation over the last 10 years has avereged less than 2.5% per year. That makes a $15000 boat in 1999 a <$22,000 boat in 2014, not $30,000.
I suspect some of the price increase may be due to economy of scale too. When you make fewer boats, it costs more to make each boat (on a per-boat basis). |
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post: | ||
laketrout (11-16-2014) |
10-16-2014, 07:14 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,052
Thanks: 63
Thanked 715 Times in 466 Posts
|
While we are speculating...
Could the cost of potential liability claims be greater now than in the past? |
10-17-2014, 11:16 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: exeter, nh
Posts: 73
Thanks: 4
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
|
It's about the financing
I was looking at some boats this summer and noticed that the monthly payment estimates were all based on 5.5% over 20 years. With that kind of financing, you can get into a 50k boat for less than the payment on a Civic.
I look at it like college tuition. There's no way it's worth, 60k/year, but with tax breaks/credits and long-term debt, they can charge 60k because people can afford it. |
10-17-2014, 05:20 PM | #13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Alton
Posts: 98
Thanks: 170
Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts
|
Quote:
Thanks Barry |
|
10-17-2014, 05:30 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV and Moultonborough, NH
Posts: 363
Thanks: 24
Thanked 84 Times in 70 Posts
|
This is why:
http://www.bloomberg.com/chart/iKHU4y4eUfWk Basically, the manufacturers are selling a fraction of the units they used to and need to cover their overhead. I realize some of the overhead has been eliminated but they still need a higher price per unit to make it work. |
10-17-2014, 07:19 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,980
Thanks: 246
Thanked 739 Times in 440 Posts
|
Quote:
|
|
10-17-2014, 08:46 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Gilford, NH and Florida
Posts: 2,949
Thanks: 667
Thanked 2,177 Times in 914 Posts
|
That is not all that has changed
Quote:
But, here is what else has changed: The lake is a lot busier and the wakes are substantial. I would not feel comfortable in any boat under 24 feet in most areas of the lake. Yes there are some weekdays, and yes there are some areas, where 18 feet of boat will be just fine. But as a family all purpose boat bigger is better. I know that is not why you wrote, but it is the first thing that I thought of when you mentioned an 18 foot boat. |
|
10-18-2014, 07:48 AM | #17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cow Island
Posts: 914
Thanks: 602
Thanked 193 Times in 91 Posts
|
not really
Quote:
|
|
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Orion For This Useful Post: | ||
Airedale1 (11-14-2014), KPW (11-17-2014), laketrout (11-16-2014), LIforrelaxin (10-20-2014), wynndog (10-19-2014) |
10-18-2014, 03:59 PM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Alton Bay
Posts: 5,578
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 2,426
Thanked 1,938 Times in 1,072 Posts
|
Guess it depends on which island
Quote:
I have a 25 ft bowrider now and am much more comfortable in that than I was in the 19 ft. That being said, there is weather where I would not want to go out in any boat. Those of us on the south side of the lake can hate the west or northwest winds that can churn up the broads into something resembling the ocean, whereas other areas of the lake may not have quite the same effect by the same winds. I guess, bottom line, get what you, and your family, will be most comfortable in.
__________________
I Live Here... I am always UPTHESAUKEE !!!! |
|
10-18-2014, 07:56 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,980
Thanks: 246
Thanked 739 Times in 440 Posts
|
It's much worse than the ocean. You rarely see steep chop like we get on Winnipesaukee, on the ocean.
|
10-18-2014, 10:39 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Mont Vernon NH & Big Barndoor Island
Posts: 321
Thanks: 4
Thanked 184 Times in 62 Posts
|
And even better yet... I find that the 26 foot flavor of SeaRay Sundeck is shorter than the 24 foot one I currently have... Guess there has been size deflation in the past 9 years. 100k+... Guess I've had my last new boat.
|
10-19-2014, 09:12 AM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bedford, NH; Meredith, NH
Posts: 902
Thanks: 245
Thanked 785 Times in 314 Posts
|
Boat length now includes swim platform...
Jazzman brings up a key point. Boat length used to be water-line only. So, if you bought a 25 foot boat with a swim platform, you had 25 feet of boat and maybe another 2 feet of swim platform, for 27 feet overall. But, that boat would have been marketed as a 25 footer. In today's market, that model is marketed as a 27 footer, when it is really only 25 feet of water-line.
Just something to keep in mind when shopping... MM |
10-19-2014, 10:05 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kuna ID
Posts: 2,755
Thanks: 246
Thanked 1,942 Times in 802 Posts
|
Ya know folks there is a very logical explanation for this that everyone doesn't seem to be aware of.
The reason why boats are so expensive can be summed up in 4 basic areas. 1: The cost of fiberglass manufacturing is in line with the cost of oil since oil is used in the manufacture of the fiberglass reins. The cost of oil at face value has gone up considerably in the past 10-15 years. Along with that EPA regulations on manufacturers requires expensive permits and logistical handling/disposal practices which of course are passed off to the consumer. Aluminum is no better the cost of the raw material is what's driving that price. Add to that - just the cost to operate a business and employ people. 2: EPA regulations on emissions has required very expensive changes the manufacture of marine engines. The latest brilliant regulation has forced the use of catalysts on all stern drives. This added on average about 4K to the cost of the powerplant. In fact stern drives used to be cheaper than outboards, not any more. Of course those regulations haven't hit the outboards yet but I'm sure eventually they will. This coupled with the fact you can not longer buy a carburetored engine has added cost too. Fuel injection is expensive versus a carburetor and adds to the cost never mind needless complication. 3: Boats are no longer simply outfitted. People want amenities that add to the cost as well even though I've noticed the more important thing, build quality hasn't really improved if anything it's slipped across all brands. Fancy trimmings don't come cheap and if you notice trying to buy a simple boat these days is impossible. They may look nice, and eye candy doo dads aren't "free". 4: Erosion in the value of the dollar. The feds continue to print money like it's going out of style, the markets are flooded with cheap dollars, interest rates are low and that comes at a cost. The dollar doesn't have the value it used to thus it takes more to buy things. That is across the board, not just boats. The bottom line here is that boats are a luxury item. The markup on them is big because there is not as much volume and for those in the market many are discriminating and not your average Joe. So the manufacturers are building what is likely to sell. Unfortunately those that are buying these days for the most part don't seem to be troubled by the current prices so the bar at the entry level of the market is well beyond what most people can reasonably afford. It is what it is. I continue to be astonished any of these new boats sell, but they do. Those that are buying them seem to be immune from what the economy is doing, or they simply don't care so long as a payment is low enough for them to make it regardless of the bottom line. Same can be said of cars, but that is an entirely different subject. |
10-19-2014, 10:06 AM | #23 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Down Shores
Posts: 1,942
Thanks: 541
Thanked 570 Times in 335 Posts
|
Quote:
__________________
[insert witty phrase here] |
|
10-19-2014, 02:42 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bedford, NH; Meredith, NH
Posts: 902
Thanks: 245
Thanked 785 Times in 314 Posts
|
You got me on a technicality...
You are correct, brk-int, in that boats are measured in LOA and today, LOA includes the swim platform. My point was that not that long ago, if you bought say a "250" model, you actually had 25' of boat. Today, that "250" model, is 23' of boat, and 2 feet of swim platform, be it an integrated one or a bolt-on one.
|
10-19-2014, 03:33 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Coral Gables, winter; Long Island, summer
Posts: 1,351
Thanks: 931
Thanked 570 Times in 296 Posts
|
Pardon my boat ignorant question; but if the discussion is of handling with respect to size, does a 25 foot boat when measured to the end of a swim platform perform less well than a 25 foot boat without the swim platform? I, of course, do realize there is a difference in interior space but that is not the discussion.
__________________
"You're only young once, but you can be immature forever." |
10-19-2014, 04:21 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 273
Thanks: 119
Thanked 62 Times in 40 Posts
|
My understanding is, from the insurance and registration view a bolt on swim platform is not considered part of the LOA.
Back to the OP: I got the memo, but did not forward it on to my better half before we bought the Cabin For us this first year, renting a boat when we needed it worked out fine. We always had a nice clean boat, and it ran!!!!! I wasn't digging through the tool box with a guest asking "when can we go on the boat"? Or worst..... You know I think it's the........ We had small pontoons, to triple logs with 225hp and anywhere in between; ended the season with a nice deck boat. Besides, if your friends know your renting it you often find $$$ on your dresser after they leave What I spent all summer was close to what a years payment would be on something less than I would want to buy. And that's not counting insurance, storage, maintenance and explaining to your older sister why her husband or adult son can't drive your boat All in all it was a very enjoyable first summer as a waterfront owner. Now that the first year "surprises" are hopefully over we will look for something to tie up to the dock. Besides my floaty toy |
10-19-2014, 06:02 PM | #27 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,980
Thanks: 246
Thanked 739 Times in 440 Posts
|
Quote:
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post: | ||
VitaBene (10-20-2014) |
10-19-2014, 09:11 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Mont Vernon NH & Big Barndoor Island
Posts: 321
Thanks: 4
Thanked 184 Times in 62 Posts
|
Yes, I think the difference in boat length has changed as we've gone from bolt on swim platforms to molded swim platforms.
My 2004 SeaRay Sundeck 240 is really 26'10" from tip to tail (including the bolt on swim platform). Today's SeaRay Sundeck 260 is 26'4" from tip to tail (with a molded swim platform). So to get the same interior space, I have to go "up a size" now if I want to buy a new boat. The interior layout of the current 260 is the same as yester-years 240. I assume a molded swim platform adds a little more mass to the boat, so maybe it handles better in heavy chop. We find the older SeaRay Sundeck 240 to be a perfect island boat. It can handle most winni chop, it will easily hold a couple weeks worth of supplies and best of all you can fit 16' lumber in it for those October projects.... |
10-20-2014, 11:25 AM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 150
Thanks: 1
Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts
|
Model numbers are pointless
You can't use model numbers to judge boats anymore. It used to be "240" or "220" meant something. Modern boat builders use the model numbers to try to get a boat into competition with other boats of class (hey look my 220 costs what their 200 costs and its "bigger").
I think of model numbers the same way I think of car models ("Tahoe", "C7", etc...). Just "names" meant to evoke a perception. You have to dig into the numbers for hull length w/ and w/o platforms, weight, etc... to try to figure out how a boat will perform. I've been in some "smaller" boats that will outperform a "bigger" boat in the same water, because of all the variables. Even demo rides are at the mercy of the weather that day and the person taking you out. Buying a boat is tough, IMHO... |
10-20-2014, 01:38 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gilford, NH
Posts: 340
Thanks: 280
Thanked 90 Times in 62 Posts
|
Used cars . . .
pricing went up because of "cash for clunkers". Over a million used cars were demolished. Over time everything corrects itself until the government changes it.
There are bargains out there for boats. If you start looking now, you will find a good deal. We got our boat for 50% less than the list price because he didn't want to pay the slip fee. You just need to find a willing seller. Good luck.
__________________
☮ _/♥\_ & (✿ˆ◡ˆ✿) |
10-20-2014, 02:05 PM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Laconia NH
Posts: 5,547
Thanks: 3,159
Thanked 1,094 Times in 788 Posts
|
zero % interest on new cars are creating a used car surplus.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/110901/B...ls_help_.shtml
I notice lately used car prices have dropped considerably lately. A couple of years ago 10 year old MB wagons were going for $15. I just purchased a 10 yr old MB wagon with only 60K mileage for $10!
__________________
Someday may never be an actual day. |
10-20-2014, 02:59 PM | #32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island
Posts: 6,083
Thanks: 2,340
Thanked 5,105 Times in 1,984 Posts
|
Confused?
Quote:
__________________
It's Always Sunny On Welch Island!! |
|
10-20-2014, 03:04 PM | #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Laconia NH
Posts: 5,547
Thanks: 3,159
Thanked 1,094 Times in 788 Posts
|
Oops!
__________________
Someday may never be an actual day. |
10-20-2014, 03:07 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: exeter, nh
Posts: 73
Thanks: 4
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
|
conspiracy
It's all just a conspiracy to raise your slip and winterization fees.
|
10-20-2014, 03:37 PM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nashua,Meredith
Posts: 951
Thanks: 213
Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts
|
I have a real nice lake only Sea ray 268 Sundancer for sale
|
10-23-2014, 08:07 AM | #36 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Gilford, NH and Florida
Posts: 2,949
Thanks: 667
Thanked 2,177 Times in 914 Posts
|
Boat Size
Quote:
|
|
11-16-2014, 02:39 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Long Bay/ Paugus bay
Posts: 115
Thanks: 127
Thanked 13 Times in 9 Posts
|
Yes new boat costs are Otta site price wise. I stopped by one dealer in Gilford and I asked what the new 24' bow rider cost he said the MSRP was near $80k, I just laughed and said thnk you.
That said my brother in law is looking for a good used 19-21' that was built in the last few years. He told me he has seen them on boat internet sites & with no bottom paint; no problem finding local NH lake bowriders that are reasonably priced $8k-$15,000. |
11-18-2014, 11:51 AM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nashua,Meredith
Posts: 951
Thanks: 213
Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts
|
there is nothing inexpensive when it comes to boating. I look at it from a use standpoint, we are onboard at least 3 times a week if I went on a vacation by the water for the same amount of days the boat is far more cost effective for me. And we all know what it stands for Break Out Another Thousand.
|
11-18-2014, 12:03 PM | #39 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,570
Thanks: 150
Thanked 229 Times in 166 Posts
|
Quote:
|
|
11-19-2014, 10:12 AM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 4,186
Thanks: 1,273
Thanked 1,568 Times in 1,018 Posts
|
$80K, Laketrout?
You said the Gilford dealer told you 80K MSRP? Of course, MSRP is a little bit of a fiction, isn't it?
I just got an email from BoatTEST.com with this lead test: "The Chaparral 223 VRX powered by twin Rotax 4-TEC 150-hp engines has an MSRP of $45,499 and is remarkably well-equipped. That price includes the sport arch, Kevlar reinforced hull, sound system, cockpit table and most everything else needed. The model we tested -- with the twin 200-hp engines -- has a base price of $48,900, and as can be seen above, she scoots. The boat starts at $52,500 with twin Rotax 4-TEC 250-hp engines and we wonder how fast she'll go." I'm sure adding a lot of canvas and a trailer can boost the price. There's a good video there too. A very impressive package. |
11-19-2014, 06:32 PM | #42 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
|
to the the ocean
At Winni it is a captured audience. Everything from real estate to boats. Look at homes on the lake as an example. $5 million $10 million it is out of control. You can buy a mansion on Monterey Peninsula for less. Boats are the same way. Look for boats for sale in RI or MA on the ocean... Less expensive, way less. Dealers on Winni will tell you all the reasons why you shouldn't purchase a boat that has been in salt water. Think about that.. I own one as do many friends. No more issues than what you would have on the lake. It is a money pit either way. Just my 2 cents
|
11-19-2014, 08:53 PM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Alton Bay on the mountain by a lake
Posts: 2,023
Thanks: 563
Thanked 444 Times in 311 Posts
|
regalguy, I was just browsing through the forum and noticed that you are fairly new to posting on the forum after joining back in February 2010. We are glad that you have come aboard and joined us. Have fun and enjoy the Winni Forum while making many new friends.
Glad to see you back posting as it has been a while. Come and join in more often as there are many great topics to talk about here on the forum.
__________________
There is nothing better than living on Alton Mountain & our grand kids visits. |
11-19-2014, 09:28 PM | #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Gilford, NH and Florida
Posts: 2,949
Thanks: 667
Thanked 2,177 Times in 914 Posts
|
No So
Quote:
If you trailer, the salt does a number on the trailer itself as well as lights, wheels etc. When you look at an ocean boat that is 5 to 10 years old there is a substantial difference in the finish and the chrome and fittings if it has been in salt. No 10 year old boat on the ocean looks anywhere near as good as a lake boat of the same vintage. Over the last 40 years I have had 12 boats, Some were new, some were used. When I couldn't find what I wanted on Winnipesaukee I went to the Great Lakes where there is a large assortment of fresh water boats. The savings in price far outweighed the cost of trucking the boat to Winnipesaukee. Just my opinion, but no salt water boats for me. |
|
The Following User Says Thank You to TiltonBB For This Useful Post: | ||
Airedale1 (11-21-2014) |
11-19-2014, 11:42 PM | #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 310
Thanks: 48
Thanked 45 Times in 33 Posts
|
Quote:
|
|
Bookmarks |
|
|