Geothermal heating

MilhouseEnterprises · 02-14-2013, 10:48 AM

What I was trying to say when I said there are more bad installers than good, was a heavy suggestion to check references and reputation of anyone you use. I was also making the point, that this is where Geothermal got its bad reputation from in NH, most of this is due to the fact that the state does not regulate installers with licensing like other stated do. So in this statement I wasn't trying to say "I'm good and everyone else isn't" because if I couldn't earn your business, I would rather have you choose a good installer and get a great reliable system so the reputation of Geothermal builds up.

On maintenance, yes they have little to no maintenance, on closed loop the most you might have to do is replace a circulatory pump, on open loop you have to check and clean the sediment filter once and a while but its easy, and every 15-20 years you have to replace the well pump but you would have to do that anyway since it is also your potable water source. If you have an air based system, the air filter needs to be changed or cleaned and the cabinet vacuumed out. On average an oil based system lasts 15-18 years, the average Geothermal system lasts 25-35 years, all these facts can be found on the EPA website or Geoexchange.org.

the 10 well system on Winne is a closed loop on a very large home. Many installers won't do open loop systems, and while it is true that open loop systems do require more maintenance and careful design, they are 30% more efficient than closed loop systems, and have a lower initial cost therefore a faster payback. Its just one of those things you have to decide for yourself as its all opinion on which way to go, both work great, my personal opinion is to go with open loop whenever possible as it saves a lot of initial cost and cuts more monthly expense in the long run, you just have to deal with cleaning the sediment filter, but there is a way to make this automatic too for a few extra bucks, but a typical system only needs it cleaned every 3 months, and all it involves is a 5 gallon bucket and 30 seconds, not a big deal.

Jeff K, $600 is very high for a Geothermal electric bill, I think there are ways your bill can be reduced. My average Geothermal customer spends $150-$350 per month on heating in Jan and Feb depending on how cold it gets. If you are an open loop, did you get a variable speed well pump (also called continuous pressure pump)? if not, change it out, that would explain the high electric, with your size house the bill shouldn't go over $400.

I have a 2500sqft test case in Rochester that was built in the early 1900's, only updates were blown in insulation and ducting insulation and sealing, replacement windows. The total electric cost for the Geothermal system (its on a separate meter) and well pump have not exceeded $165 in any given year. System is a 4 ton water to air, open loop. Cost to install was $23,600. Incentives paid for roughly 1/2 the cost leaving the initial investment at $12,000. Annual savings over oil was $3600 so payback was 3 1/2 years. This customer happens to be a financial annalist, and is happy to show anyone interested the system and the numbers.

I hope this clarifies some things, I know I can't please everyone, and of course I'm looking to make a living and hoping to earn business, but I make an HONEST living, I don't overcharge, and I don't do the dancing monkey routine with high pressure sales, smoke and mirrors. I give you the facts, I prove it with facts from the EPA and Test cases, I back up my reputation with hundreds of satisfied customers, and I educate you to make a better decision on your purchase even if it is not with me, because I believe the more well designed Geothermal systems we get out there that run as they should and make happy customers, the better the industry will succeed as a whole. So even if you have no intent on purchasing or installing a system, and just want to learn more, please don't hesitate to call or e-mail me, I don't charge for information. Also feel free to google "Milhouse Enterprises" online, you will find many top rated reviews about us that are independent reviews from our customer base, completely unbiased. chris@milhouseenterprises.com 603-300-2943

BroadHopper · 02-14-2013, 12:40 PM

For heating with geothermal? No thanks. My natural gas bill was never more than $130 a month.

Happy Gourmand · 02-14-2013, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

For heating with geothermal? No thanks. My natural gas bill was never more than $130 a month.

I think I agree with this statement. I just got my gas bill for last month...natural gas..heat...hot water...cooking..$135. House is a bit less than 1900 sq ft.
Maybe the low cost of gas has something to do with it but seems like payback would happen long after I'm gone.

codeman671 · 02-14-2013, 01:01 PM

We are in the process of getting a quote from someone, I am being told that we need 4 wells, 360 feet deep each. 180 feet per ton, 8 ton total system. We have too much wooded area to run a closed loop trench, we'd have to cut down half our wooded back yard to put it in.

MilhouseEnterprises · 02-15-2013, 03:16 AM

If you have Natural Gas, and a Small Home, yes, stick with it. Natural gas is a great form of energy, its locally produced, inexpensive, abundant and clean, unfortunately most of us do not have access to it in the Lakes Region, the average Oil or Propane customer up here spends $3500-$4500 annually on fuel.

BroadHopper · 02-15-2013, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MilhouseEnterprises

If you have Natural Gas, and a Small Home, yes, stick with it. Natural gas is a great form of energy, its locally produced, inexpensive, abundant and clean, unfortunately most of us do not have access to it in the Lakes Region, the average Oil or Propane customer up here spends $3500-$4500 annually on fuel.

Sorry to burst your bubble again. The last house I built with a 5+ energy star rating and 2500 sq feet, spent $1700 last year for propane. That includes gas appliances such as dryer, kitchen stove, hot water and fireplace. It depends on your homework, finding an econonmical propane supplier is a challenge.

DickR · 02-15-2013, 11:24 AM

BH, Millhouse was speaking of the average fuel customer. The fact that your ES 5+ house costs less than half the average says two things. First, the "average" house really isn't that good at holding in the heat in winter. Second, going the extra distance in construction techniques, which doesn't have to add much to cost if built into the design, really does save a pile of energy every year over the life of the house, not to mention improved interior comfort. Yet many builders haven't taken the time to learn how to do it right, and some who could do it right may be constrained by whoever will buy the house (or is having the house built), and his unwillingness to pay the small extra cost of a really good shell or his lack of understanding of what it all means.

That's why I advise anyone about to have a house built get very well educated on building science and house construction, so as to be able to evaluate prospective builders and work with the one selected to achieve the desired goals. If the homeowner won't insist on "really good" and understand what that means, then improvements in construction will come slowly, driven only by upgrades in energy codes. Codes have been upgraded, but adoption of new versions often comes slowly in any town, and what passes for code-compliant too often doesn't perform to the intention of the code in the worst weather.

BroadHopper · 02-15-2013, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DickR

Codes have been upgraded, but adoption of new versions often comes slowly in any town, and what passes for code-compliant too often doesn't perform to the intention of the code in the worst weather.

You hit the nail! That is why I rely on the local engineers and UNH cooperative to provide insight to local conditions. Take a look at International Building Codes, especially Canadian. You will see a huge difference in energy specification. Even if your specifications exceed current RBC, it does not mean that the inspectors will OK it.

I would rather buy a Canadian spec manufactured home over a local stick built.

Fargo · 02-16-2013, 09:40 AM

Just received the winter issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine, it touches on all the topics in this forum. I attended a Passive House presentation in Portland yesterday, it's all about the insulation and air sealing to make the heating systems perform to the max. Invest in the shell, reduce the heating requirements (size). Are any builders in the Lakes Region doing double studded walls to 12" depths?

BroadHopper · 02-16-2013, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fargo

Just received the winter issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine, it touches on all the topics in this forum. I attended a Passive House presentation in Portland yesterday, it's all about the insulation and air sealing to make the heating systems perform to the max. Invest in the shell, reduce the heating requirements (size). Are any builders in the Lakes Region doing double studded walls to 12" depths?

This is really overkill according to the local experts. 8" with 1" closed foam insulation with open faced fiberglass and covered with 6 mill sheeting should be sufficient for this climate. If you want to go 12", I know of a couple of contractors that will do it. But they are not located in Lakes Region.

Fargo · 02-16-2013, 05:05 PM

Some of the "local experts" should spend time in a building science class so they'd construct a durable, energy efficient wall assembly. If you're spending the money, might as well do it correct. Flash and batt might work in the Mid Atlantic states but not recommended in this climate zone. Geo and mini splits need very good insulation and air sealing details to perform well. Just spent $3.99 on oil.

02-14-2013, 10:48 AM	#1
MilhouseEnterprises Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts	Reply to all What I was trying to say when I said there are more bad installers than good, was a heavy suggestion to check references and reputation of anyone you use. I was also making the point, that this is where Geothermal got its bad reputation from in NH, most of this is due to the fact that the state does not regulate installers with licensing like other stated do. So in this statement I wasn't trying to say "I'm good and everyone else isn't" because if I couldn't earn your business, I would rather have you choose a good installer and get a great reliable system so the reputation of Geothermal builds up. On maintenance, yes they have little to no maintenance, on closed loop the most you might have to do is replace a circulatory pump, on open loop you have to check and clean the sediment filter once and a while but its easy, and every 15-20 years you have to replace the well pump but you would have to do that anyway since it is also your potable water source. If you have an air based system, the air filter needs to be changed or cleaned and the cabinet vacuumed out. On average an oil based system lasts 15-18 years, the average Geothermal system lasts 25-35 years, all these facts can be found on the EPA website or Geoexchange.org. the 10 well system on Winne is a closed loop on a very large home. Many installers won't do open loop systems, and while it is true that open loop systems do require more maintenance and careful design, they are 30% more efficient than closed loop systems, and have a lower initial cost therefore a faster payback. Its just one of those things you have to decide for yourself as its all opinion on which way to go, both work great, my personal opinion is to go with open loop whenever possible as it saves a lot of initial cost and cuts more monthly expense in the long run, you just have to deal with cleaning the sediment filter, but there is a way to make this automatic too for a few extra bucks, but a typical system only needs it cleaned every 3 months, and all it involves is a 5 gallon bucket and 30 seconds, not a big deal. Jeff K, $600 is very high for a Geothermal electric bill, I think there are ways your bill can be reduced. My average Geothermal customer spends $150-$350 per month on heating in Jan and Feb depending on how cold it gets. If you are an open loop, did you get a variable speed well pump (also called continuous pressure pump)? if not, change it out, that would explain the high electric, with your size house the bill shouldn't go over $400. I have a 2500sqft test case in Rochester that was built in the early 1900's, only updates were blown in insulation and ducting insulation and sealing, replacement windows. The total electric cost for the Geothermal system (its on a separate meter) and well pump have not exceeded $165 in any given year. System is a 4 ton water to air, open loop. Cost to install was $23,600. Incentives paid for roughly 1/2 the cost leaving the initial investment at $12,000. Annual savings over oil was $3600 so payback was 3 1/2 years. This customer happens to be a financial annalist, and is happy to show anyone interested the system and the numbers. I hope this clarifies some things, I know I can't please everyone, and of course I'm looking to make a living and hoping to earn business, but I make an HONEST living, I don't overcharge, and I don't do the dancing monkey routine with high pressure sales, smoke and mirrors. I give you the facts, I prove it with facts from the EPA and Test cases, I back up my reputation with hundreds of satisfied customers, and I educate you to make a better decision on your purchase even if it is not with me, because I believe the more well designed Geothermal systems we get out there that run as they should and make happy customers, the better the industry will succeed as a whole. So even if you have no intent on purchasing or installing a system, and just want to learn more, please don't hesitate to call or e-mail me, I don't charge for information. Also feel free to google "Milhouse Enterprises" online, you will find many top rated reviews about us that are independent reviews from our customer base, completely unbiased. chris@milhouseenterprises.com 603-300-2943

02-14-2013, 12:40 PM	#2
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,582 Thanks: 3,223 Thanked 1,106 Times in 796 Posts	$150-$350 a month! For heating with geothermal? No thanks. My natural gas bill was never more than $130 a month. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

02-15-2013, 03:16 AM	#5
MilhouseEnterprises Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts	Natural Gas If you have Natural Gas, and a Small Home, yes, stick with it. Natural gas is a great form of energy, its locally produced, inexpensive, abundant and clean, unfortunately most of us do not have access to it in the Lakes Region, the average Oil or Propane customer up here spends $3500-$4500 annually on fuel.

02-16-2013, 05:05 PM	#11
Fargo Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Lake Winni Posts: 215 Thanks: 36 Thanked 130 Times in 38 Posts	Over kill Some of the "local experts" should spend time in a building science class so they'd construct a durable, energy efficient wall assembly. If you're spending the money, might as well do it correct. Flash and batt might work in the Mid Atlantic states but not recommended in this climate zone. Geo and mini splits need very good insulation and air sealing details to perform well. Just spent $3.99 on oil.

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MilhouseEnterprises For This Useful Post:
Chaselady (02-14-2013), jeffk (02-14-2013)

02-14-2013, 01:01 PM	#4
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,501 Thanks: 221 Thanked 815 Times in 489 Posts	We are in the process of getting a quote from someone, I am being told that we need 4 wells, 360 feet deep each. 180 feet per ton, 8 ton total system. We have too much wooded area to run a closed loop trench, we'd have to cut down half our wooded back yard to put it in.

02-15-2013, 11:24 AM	#7
DickR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 751 Thanks: 4 Thanked 259 Times in 171 Posts	BH, Millhouse was speaking of the average fuel customer. The fact that your ES 5+ house costs less than half the average says two things. First, the "average" house really isn't that good at holding in the heat in winter. Second, going the extra distance in construction techniques, which doesn't have to add much to cost if built into the design, really does save a pile of energy every year over the life of the house, not to mention improved interior comfort. Yet many builders haven't taken the time to learn how to do it right, and some who could do it right may be constrained by whoever will buy the house (or is having the house built), and his unwillingness to pay the small extra cost of a really good shell or his lack of understanding of what it all means. That's why I advise anyone about to have a house built get very well educated on building science and house construction, so as to be able to evaluate prospective builders and work with the one selected to achieve the desired goals. If the homeowner won't insist on "really good" and understand what that means, then improvements in construction will come slowly, driven only by upgrades in energy codes. Codes have been upgraded, but adoption of new versions often comes slowly in any town, and what passes for code-compliant too often doesn't perform to the intention of the code in the worst weather.

The Following User Says Thank You to DickR For This Useful Post:
BroadHopper (02-15-2013)

02-16-2013, 09:40 AM	#9
Fargo Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Lake Winni Posts: 215 Thanks: 36 Thanked 130 Times in 38 Posts	Just received the winter issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine, it touches on all the topics in this forum. I attended a Passive House presentation in Portland yesterday, it's all about the insulation and air sealing to make the heating systems perform to the max. Invest in the shell, reduce the heating requirements (size). Are any builders in the Lakes Region doing double studded walls to 12" depths?