Waterfront Etiquette

[Benny]

Just how close can fishermen / rafters come to my dock? Is there any regulation that may impose restrictions pertaining to invasion of landowners' privacy?

[Jonas Pilot]

Originally Posted by Benny

Just how close can fishermen / rafters come to my dock? Is there any regulation that may impose restrictions pertaining to invasion of landowners' privacy?

No. We share the lake.

[Jonas Pilot]

It is not fair to group rafters and fishermen together.

[ScubaBrian]

I'm guessing these are rafts being pulled by boats...so there is the whole 150' rule correct?

Fisherman / kayakers ect don't.

[WINNOCTURN]

Are we talking about boats pulling "rafts"? Or are we talking Boaters that are "RAFFTING"? Two total different subjects.

If it is a boat "Towing" a "Raft or Tube" then I would agree with the 150' rule. If it is someone anchoring a boat, then would the 25' rule apply? Oh and remember "WE" have access up to the "HIGH WATER" mark on the lake. I think even a "Swim Line" is only a Warning of a designated swinging area that does not restrict your access to the "HIGH WATER MARK".

With all this said, COMMON CURTICY may be the best rule applied?

[camp guy]

Like Jonas Pilot said, we share the Lake. When I lived on the Lake my shorefront was slightly concave, and many mornings I would have fishermen inside the line of my dock with the corner of my land. Honestly, at that early hour, I was never bothered by them. If I wanted to head to Town by boat I just slowly motored away from my dock and then got up to speed.

I think "the rafters" being mentioned are not the type pulled behind a boat, but probably the grouping of several boats for social purposes. Now, this could lead to a question of being inside a shorefronters "personal space" (not withstanding the first sentence above). Usually, rafters prefer to find a spot away from landowners so they can enjoy their own fun and not be in the sights of landowners or vice versa.

[Altonbayicefishingfool]

The WHOLE lake is public property!

[Jonas Pilot]

Originally Posted by Altonbayicefishingfool

The WHOLE lake is public property!

And with that comes responsibility.

[Sunrise Point]

The lakes belong to everyone.

We often have fishermen right by our boat and dock and within 10 feet of the rest of the shorefront. 99.99% of them are quiet and focused on fishing. I am a very early riser and enjoy watching them and often ask "how's the fishing?".

The .01% problem was just a guy with a very loud voice and honestly, I felt sorry for his fishing buddy for being stuck in a boat with him.

We have very few rafters in our area, so I can't comment on that.

[Belmont Resident]

FYI the lake is public property to the high water mark of your property.
Also swim areas as defined is a safe area free from motorized vehicles and as such is also public property and open to all to swim in. Unless it is a state beach.
Don’t shoot the messenger instead look up the definitions.
Why do you think Romney took so much flack years ago for hiring off duty Mass state troopers to keep boaters away from his property?

[MAXUM]

I found it very interesting, as I just went through the mooring permitting process that the application states very clearly that you do not have a right to a mooring, that the lake is public property and it is up to the state to 'allow' you the privledge of putting a mooring in. No question shore front owners do not own or have any special priveldge to the lake directly abutting thier property, fair enough. That said common courtsey and a little respect of boaters and fisherman certainly is lacking as well. Like others, the fisherman don't usually cause any concern, they are generally quiet and move along down the shore, most are nice if you're friendly enough to say hi. Rafting wouldn't bother me either provided folks are respectful and not being obnoxious. However that is not always the case, and nobody should have to put up with listening to loud music or screaming obsecenities. Both unfortuantly are common place with people rafting.

[GM doc]

Originally Posted by Benny

Just how close can fishermen / rafters come to my dock? Is there any regulation that may impose restrictions pertaining to invasion of landowners' privacy?

IS THIS REALLY a question?

[HellRaZoR004]

So interesting question...docks and such. They are beyond the high water marker. How does that work?

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004

So interesting question...docks and such. They are beyond the high water marker. How does that work?

Regulated by the state, permits required.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...OC-L-482-A.htm

http://des.nh.gov/organization/commi...-wt100-900.pdf

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004

So interesting question...docks and such. They are beyond the high water marker. How does that work?

You can always tell the courteous boaters by where they will park in respect to others property.
Me I’d never park where I wouldn’t want someone parking if I owned property on the lake.
That being said there are also quite a few landowners who bring on their own grief in the way they treat others.
I’ve seen both sides of the coin and there have been many threads over the years pertaining to this subject.
As for docks, think of it as your car parked on a public road. Yes you own the car but not the area where you have it parked. The dock is private property and it is illegal for another person to come aboard the raft.
Sometimes boaters will stop in an isolated spot thinking no one is home; sometimes a simple hi will move the boater on as they realize someone is home.
In the same instance a boater who is threatened can come back with others and hang out just to make a point, or worse. Remember a boater may not know who you are, but they know where you live!

[Lake Fan]

Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004

So interesting question...docks and such. They are beyond the high water marker. How does that work?

Technically ownership of Winnipesaukee waterfront extends to the full lake elevation of 504.32', not the "high water mark". Sometimes "high water" goes behind our camp. Please do not fish in our backyard when the lake is high. lol.

And waterfront owners do have some rights that non-owners do not have:

"Riparian rights include such things as the right to access for swimming, boating and fishing; the right to wharf out to a point of navigability; the right to erect structures such as docks, piers, and boat lifts; the right to use the water for domestic purposes; the right to accretions caused by water level fluctuations".

All that said, as mentioned by others, people can float right in front of your camp, cast under your dock or boat, swim in front of your property, etc. As Belmont Resident said, it's easy to tell the courteous boaters from those who are not. I think the vast majority of folks on the lake are just trying to enjoy their day on the water.

[challmec]

Alot of great answers to the original question. From where i am sitting I do believe that courteous boaters will not drop anchor close by anyone's private space. I always look for an area that is far away from anyone else.. I try and respect others on the water and on adjoining waterfront land. I do see many instances where a boat will get way too close to a dock or other boats that may be at anchor. Yes it is a public lake and some folks sometimes forget to be completely safe and to use good common sense on the water.
I admit there were times many years back when I used poor judgement with respect to others out there.Just some personal observations

[Orion]

Personally I have no problem with fishermen coming in close, but in an often failed attempt to cast as close as possible to the dock, I get lures in my canvas, and one left a lure on my dock with 30' of fishing line attached, waiting to wrap around my prop. The highways and rest areas are public property, too, but would you want someone casting all around your car? Courtesy and "common" sense, as always, is the rule to be followed.

[Kamper]

Because Winnipissaukee's water level is artificially maintained, your actual property line may be arguable but we had a local cop agree on a previous thread, that as long as their "feet are wet" the police won't get involved. Same with boaters, the water's surface is public domain even in a marina.

Also, since your dock is interfering with the public right of way, a wader has the right to step on it to get across or to get on land just to the extent needed to get past it. Several land-owners have responded to this detail by saying they would get prickly with anyone who stepped on their dock or land for this purpose but I think that's just being mean-spirited.

I do advise that you post your property from the land and water-side if you are serious about keeping non-guests away. When I managed a property a few years back, the most common violaters were boat-kids wading along the shore. But old or young, they all reacted positively to "Keep your feet wet please."

[KonaChick]

I also find most fishermen to be courteous. They cast and move along. I find if someone stays too long that our dogs and or teenagers and their loud hip hop usually send them on their way fast!!

[garysanfran]

I recently had a fisherman get his lure snagged on a bush on my shore front. He docked his boat at my dock. Got out, walked on my shore to retrieve his lure.

Very unacceptable. That lure should have become mine!

[Jonas Pilot]

He overstepped his bounds.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

I also find most fishermen to be courteous. They cast and move along. I find if someone stays too long that our dogs and or teenagers and their loud hip hop usually send them on their way fast!!

Just be aware, people like me have taken notice to this kind of behavior.
Some of use even have some good video/audio equipment on board.

Net result: I file a complaint with Marine patrol. If I return and you do it again, I file a protection from harassment with the court. Not so funny now is it?

[HomeWood]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

I recently had a fisherman get his lure snagged on a bush on my shore front. He docked his boat at my dock. Got out, walked on my shore to retrieve his lure.

Very unacceptable. That lure should have become mine!

If you're joking around (sure you are), I agree. (as an avid fisherman who loves finding free lures)

If you're serious, I would have to disagree and say he did the courteous thing. I'd never leave a lure snagged on somebodys dock or tree if I can easily retrieve it.

[HellRaZoR004]

Originally Posted by HomeWood

If you're joking around (sure you are), I agree. (as an avid fisherman who loves finding free lures)

If you're serious, I would have to disagree and say he did the courteous thing. I'd never leave a lure snagged on somebodys dock or tree if I can easily retrieve it.

I agree, could have posed a bigger problem if he left it with the line still attached.

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by HomeWood

If you're joking around (sure you are), I agree. (as an avid fisherman who loves finding free lures)

If you're serious, I would have to disagree and say he did the courteous thing. I'd never leave a lure snagged on somebodys dock or tree if I can easily retrieve it.

You're on my land without my permission? He didn't "easily retrieve it" he docked his boat at my dock and came on my land, and that is not acceptable. Do you dive into the water to retrieve a lure you've caught on a submerged tree? And if a swim near there have you put me in danger?

Get real! Don't cast your stuff onto my shore! And you won't have to trespass to recover it.

When I see a stranger on my land, my first concern is for the safety of those with me.

Stay off my land or wreak my rath!!!

[Altonbayicefishingfool]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

You're on my land without my permission? He didn't "easily retrieve it" he docked his boat at my dock and came on my land, and that is not acceptable. Do you dive into the water to retrieve a lure you've caught on a submerged tree? And if a swim near there have you put me in danger?

Get real! Don't cast your stuff onto my shore! And you won't have to trespass to recover it.

When I see a stranger on my land, my first concern is for the safety of those with me.

Stay off my land or wreak my rath!!!

Do you have " no trespassing" signs posted?

[HomeWood]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

You're on my land without my permission? He didn't "easily retrieve it" he docked his boat at my dock and came on my land, and that is not acceptable. Do you dive into the water to retrieve a lure you've caught on a submerged tree? And if a swim near there have you put me in danger?

Get real! Don't cast your stuff onto my shore! And you won't have to trespass to recover it.

When I see a stranger on my land, my first concern is for the safety of those with me.

Stay off my land or wreak my rath!!!

Easily retrieved it is obviously open to interpretation. I would appreciate somebody removing a lure/hook from our dock, boat, or shore and they are welcome to use the empty side of the dock to do it. Common sense would also tell me that I am likely not in any immediate danger from that "trespasser" and I can probably keep my rath leashed for that one. Would you not allow somebody to use your dock to get out of a sudden and severe thunderstorm? We do and have.

I'm sure that fisherman thought he was doing the polite thing by getting it off your property and not leaving it to become a hazard for animals/people.

It's people with your attitude that has made the lake a less friendlier place, but I agree that greater care should be taken when fishing around docks and others property as to avoid such a situation.

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by Altonbayicefishingfool

Do you have " no trespassing" signs posted?

On all quadrants of my land

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by HomeWood

Easily retrieved it is obviously open to interpretation. I would appreciate somebody removing a lure/hook from our dock, boat, or shore and they are welcome to use the empty side of the dock to do it. Common sense would also tell me that I am likely not in any immediate danger from that "trespasser" and I can probably keep my rath leashed for that one. Would you not allow somebody to use your dock to get out of a sudden and severe thunderstorm? We do and have.

I'm sure that fisherman thought he was doing the polite thing by getting it off your property and not leaving it to become a hazard for animals/people.

It's people with your attitude that has made the lake a less friendlier place, but I agree that greater care should be taken when fishing around docks and others property as to avoid such a situation.

Agree, as some boaters can be a problem for landowners, some landowners create their own problems with the way they respond to a situation, weather they are right or wrong.
Someone plucking a lure out of a branch is by no means a reason to get all bent out of shape. I never was a great caster and cannot tell you how many times I sent a lure to close to the shore and had to retrieve it. I can say that I never tied up to a dock but would retrieve it by boat or get out of the boat and retrieve it in the water.
One of the things that is always in the back of my mind when dealing with people around my home is that they know where I live and I have no idea who they are, or what type of person they are. In today’s society you never know what recourse someone might take.
So sometimes a little common sense and less abrasiveness goes a long way.

[SAMIAM]

We have three or four large blueberry bushes overhanging the water and last summer we came home from work to find a family in their pontoon boat happily picking berries.
We didn't really mind because we have plenty of berries,plus they had kids with them that were pretty cute and enjoying themselves.

[no-engine]

Call it "respect" for one's neighbor ~ on sea, lake, or land....

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by WINNOCTURN

a designated swinging area ?

Now I know there must be a rule against this.

Just trying to lighten up this thread..

[Rattlesnake Gal]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

I recently had a fisherman get his lure snagged on a bush on my shore front. He docked his boat at my dock. Got out, walked on my shore to retrieve his lure.

Very unacceptable. That lure should have become mine!

Every person will have a different opinion on this senerio. I personally would appreciate any fishing lures retrieved by said fisherman, even if it means comining onto my property. Having myself or my dogs getting hooked is not worth it to me.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

... a family in their pontoon boat happily picking berries. ..

Under old English common law, people have the right to pick fruit as far as their arms can reach without stepping foot over the property line. So far as I know this has never been challenged in NH since independence.

I like blueberries. Where did you say these bushes are?

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Gal

Every person will have a different opinion on this senerio. I personally would appreciate any fishing lures retrieved by said fisherman, even if it means comining onto my property. Having myself or my dogs getting hooked is not worth it to me.

Are we talking about the fisherman with the 10 HP aluminum row boat or the fishermen with the 21 foot boat with two Mercury 150 HP outboard engines?

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by songkrai

Are we talking about the fisherman with the 10 HP aluminum row boat or the fishermen with the 21 foot boat with two Mercury 150 HP outboard engines?

The draught on a 21 ft "bass/fishing" boat probably isn't much different than that aluminum row boat actually. And with a trolling motor you can get in and out of plenty of places that you could not do otherwise. Just sayin'

[Rattlesnake Gal]

Originally Posted by songkrai

Are we talking about the fisherman with the 10 HP aluminum row boat or the fishermen with the 21 foot boat with two Mercury 150 HP outboard engines?

Either is fine with me.

If I happen to be outside when a snag like this happens, I would be glad to retrieve a lost lure for a fishing friend and save them the trouble.

[garysanfran]

The reason I don't like strangers walking across the front of my property has to do with my privacy. Something I value. My house is built 15' from the water and the front is all glass. Anyone standing on my land, on the water side of my house, is literally only a few feet from my living room, kitchen and one bedroom with an unobstructed view into each room. I find it very unsettling to walk into any of these rooms, in whatever state I'm in, to see a stranger looking directly at me from just a few feet away. From the lake, the view is from a lower angle and not as obtrusive. It's not that I'm anti-social. I just like to know when to expect company.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

The reason I don't like strangers walking across the front of my property has to do with my privacy. Something I value. My house is built 15' from the water and the front is all glass. Anyone standing on my land, on the water side of my house, is literally only a few feet from my living room, kitchen and one bedroom with an unobstructed view into each room. I find it very unsettling to walk into any of these rooms, in whatever state I'm in, to see a stranger looking directly at me from just a few feet away. From the lake, the view is from a lower angle and not as obtrusive. It's not that I'm anti-social. I just like to know when to expect company.

People with GLASS houses (especially if you are naked) ... May find Curtains would make you feel more comfortable. NB

[Pineedles]

You know it is funny this year. While I am sitting on my front porch I usually wave at paddlers and bass boat fishermen as they are within a few feet of my wharf. They usually wave back. This year not one paddler waved back. What's with that? Didn't have any bass fisherman that close, so I can't comment on their reaction to my friendly wave. It's getting pretty ugly up here. Getting so I don't think I am going to wave anymore. Just saying, I am a friendly shorefront owner. Are there others out there that yell and scream at folks who come close to their dock? Is this why I am getting no reaction from folks? I don't like the way things are going. I's very depressing.

[HomeWood]

Our shoreline has great people on it and we consistently wave/chit chat when the opportunity is there. The occasional paddler or fisherman usually gives a wave.

I have noticed the boat to boat waves have decreased. I remember being a kid and waving to what seemed like every single boat we passed and getting a wave back.

[Irrigation Guy]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

The reason I don't like strangers walking across the front of my property has to do with my privacy. Something I value. My house is built 15' from the water and the front is all glass. Anyone standing on my land, on the water side of my house, is literally only a few feet from my living room, kitchen and one bedroom with an unobstructed view into each room. I find it very unsettling to walk into any of these rooms, in whatever state I'm in, to see a stranger looking directly at me from just a few feet away. From the lake, the view is from a lower angle and not as obtrusive. It's not that I'm anti-social. I just like to know when to expect company.

As mentioned before, curtains might be a help especially given you value your privacy soo much, maybe a different house on top of a mountain would work. I think given the wrong circumstances you could be charged with an offense you might have to register with the local police for. I read about this happening somewhere. Just sayin.

[chachee52]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

You're on my land without my permission? He didn't "easily retrieve it" he docked his boat at my dock and came on my land, and that is not acceptable. Do you dive into the water to retrieve a lure you've caught on a submerged tree? And if a swim near there have you put me in danger?

Get real! Don't cast your stuff onto my shore! And you won't have to trespass to recover it.

When I see a stranger on my land, my first concern is for the safety of those with me.

Stay off my land or wreak my rath!!!

I have many times snagged a lure on a rock/branch near the shore. I am a very cheap guy and have my favorite lures and have dived in to get the lures in the water.
When you were a kid and threw a ball into your neighbors yard by accident did you go get the ball? What's the difference?
When I fished a lot, I would always try to stay as far away as I could from peoples homes. but I'd cast where the fish were. At the begining of the season the bass where near the shore. I would always try the spots where there were little hosues as well.
As for the rafters, just as long as they don't block the enterance to the marina I'm ok with them. But at least a couple times a year they do.

[Phantom]

GARYSANFRAN ---

Where EXACTLY do you live ??

[jrc]

I know all the rules, and I especially don't like to anchor my cruiser off someones beach or waterfront. That's why NRZ's tick me off so much.

But how do people feel about kayakers? I'm been doing a lot of kayaking recently. How would you as a land owner feel if I stopped in a waist deep sandy area near your land and cooled off for a few minutes. Reboarding a kayak in deep water is a chore, so a swim near shore is much easier.

I have my houseless spots, so I don't need to do this very often but how would you feel?

[WINNOCTURN]

GARY,

Is you property "POSTED"? Does not New Hampshire consider all lands open to the Public if not "POSTED"? I am trying to reference the State's laws regarding HUNTING in NH. Does this apply in this situation? If you are worried about some one with a Fishing Pole how do you feel about a couple of "HUNTERS" with shot guns chasing down that Buck that just ran across your property?

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by WINNOCTURN

GARY,

Is you property "POSTED"? Does not New Hampshire consider all lands open to the Public if not "POSTED"? I am trying to reference the State's laws regarding HUNTING in NH. Does this apply in this situation? If you are worried about some one with a Fishing Pole how do you feel about a couple of "HUNTERS" with shot guns chasing down that Buck that just ran across your property?

Look in the little book the state puts out every season for hunting, they go into what the deal is in regards to hunting private property. In short if it is not posted (and properly posted) technically it's considered open for hunting provided it's safe to do so. That said, it's always courtious to ask the landowner's permission. Also using your example, if you happen to shoot a deer and it runs onto posted land, have to call the F&G at that point or get permission from the landowner before proceeding.

[BroadHopper]

I don't know where folks who never had waterfront property before get the idea they 'own the water' in front of their property. I see too many of this happening lately. When I bought property, I assume I have little control of what happens on the water in front of me. Even though I had to pay a view tax.

As I boater, I respect others property. I don't go walking on their shorefront unless it is an emergency. I prefer not to raft in front of a cabin to respect their right to a beautiful view.

When fishing, I feel guilty if I snag a lure in front of a property. I think of a child stepping or tangling in the lure. I always make sure I retreive the lure. When I use to dive, I had to carry a knive in case I get tangled in line.

[Rattlesnake Gal]

Originally Posted by jrc

I know all the rules, and I especially don't like to anchor my cruiser off someones beach or waterfront. That's why NRZ's tick me off so much.

But how do people feel about kayakers? I'm been doing a lot of kayaking recently. How would you as a land owner feel if I stopped in a waist deep sandy area near your land and cooled off for a few minutes. Reboarding a kayak in deep water is a chore, so a swim near shore is much easier.

I have my houseless spots, so I don't need to do this very often but how would you feel?

I totally love seeing people enjoy the lake! Swim in front of my camp... No problem. Maybe I will join you. It paid off for a family a couple years ago when their boat wouldn't start. We towed them back to Ames Farm just as the weather turned bad. Kayak, fish or float - enjoy the lake as you wish. After all it belongs to all of us. If you are in my neck of the woods, you can count on me to be freindly and helpful, if needed. I always wave... whether you're looking my way or not. See you at the lake!

[Bear247]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Gal

I totally love seeing people enjoy the lake! Swim in front of my camp... No problem. Maybe I will join you. It paid off for a family a couple years ago when their boat wouldn't start. We towed them back to Ames Farm just as the weather turned bad. Kayak, fish or float - enjoy the lake as you wish. After all it belongs to all of us. If you are in my neck of the woods, you can count on me to be freindly and helpful, if needed. I always wave... whether you're looking my way or not. See you at the lake!

Very well said. The Lake is for everyone. Just wave as you go by...

[jrc]

Thanks R Gal, someday I might make that paddle, but it's a long way from Smith Cove.

My favorite place for a dip is in front of Lincoln Park. A great spot, mix of rocks and sand, and alway great wake action. Since swimming at Lincoln Park is against the law (why?) I have to keep my feet wet.

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by jrc

Thanks R Gal, someday I might make that paddle, but it's a long way from Smith Cove.

My favorite place for a dip is in front of Lincoln Park. A great spot, mix of rocks and sand, and alway great wake action. Since swimming at Lincoln Park is against the law (why?) I have to keep my feet wet.

No Swimming? Is this true? I see there is no life guard but nothing about no swimming.

[spider22]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

I recently had a fisherman get his lure snagged on a bush on my shore front. He docked his boat at my dock. Got out, walked on my shore to retrieve his lure.

Very unacceptable. That lure should have become mine!

My question is were you nearby when you saw this happen? If so why did you not go untangle the lure yourself and let the fisherman reel it in and that way he would not have had to dock the boat and go on your property to retrieve it.

[Benny]

Originally Posted by GM doc

IS THIS REALLY a question?

Some “get” the jist of the original question, but most don’t. We all agree that safe boating laws certainly apply to all who enjoy the lake, and that these laws need to be enforced by the State. We also agree that the State manages natural resources for the enduring good and welfare of the people of New Hampshire by implementing regulations intended to preserve the ecological balance of the lake and its tributaries.
What seems to be a bone of contention is an apparent lack of written decree that defines acceptable “etiquette” pertaining to rights and privileges of waterfront owners who are taxed so heavily for their property. Landowners, almost without exception, accept their responsibility as stewards of the fragile lake environment. Winnipesaukee has +/-300 miles of shorefront. Hypothetically assuming shorefront is rationed into 100 ft wide lots, each landowner shares 1/15840th stewardship (worst case). This vested interest in the lake certainly should have more influence than the out-of-state boater who invests $15 to launch their boat. Unfortunately, the stereotypical daytimer is observed to exercise little or no respect for those of us who pay the price for our little bit of heaven. Consider the analogy of renting a car vs. using your own car. The rental is thrashed, abused, and soiled. The owned car is maintained and clean. There is no pride-of-ownership for the rental.

[Jonas Pilot]

You have moved to the wrong state.

[Newbiesaukee]

Although I do "get" your question, and as one of the out-of-state, waterfront property owners, JP's original answer is the correct one "we share the lake."

And I knew this before I bought the property and it seems fair to me. I am not sure what else there is to "get."

[jrc]

Benny, you seem to think you somehow bought my lake, or some portion of it.

You didn't, I and my fellow NH citizen own this lake and all other "great ponds", we let the state government hold it in trust for us, and manage it. My vested interest is equal to yours, just as my vote is equal to yours.

We can't have a law for everything, ettiquette and respect run both ways, we can share this great resource in friendship or we can call out the lawyers and ruin it for everyone. Plenty of history there.

Your statement that "Landowners, almost without exception, accept their responsibility as stewards of the fragile lake environment." is demonstrably false. Just look around the lake.

[Jonas Pilot]

Originally Posted by jrc

Benny, you seem to think you somehow bought my lake, or some portion of it.

You didn't, I and my fellow NH citizen own this lake and all other "great ponds", we let the state government hold it in trust for us, and manage it. My vested interest is equal to yours, just as my vote is equal to yours.

We can't have a law for everything, ettiquette and respect run both ways, we can share this great resource in friendship or we can call out the lawyers and ruin it for everyone. Plenty of history there.

Your statement that "Landowners, almost without exception, accept their responsibility as stewards of the fragile lake environment." is demonstrably false. Just look around the lake.

Well said jrc.

[Woodsy]

Benny...

You are a little out of touch here. Just because you own property that borders public domain property/resource does not give you a right or an expectation of privacy. In fact it guarantees the exact opposite. It guarantees the public access to any part of that property/resource.

We (the citizens of NH) are the true owners of all inland bodies of water, do grant you (waterfront property owners) certain littoral priveleges (not rights). We allow you a dock to extend into the lake (public domain) with limitations... same goes for moorings, swim rafts and swim lines. People need to remember that those priveleges can be severly restricted or revoked depending on the political whim of the public.

As for your dayboater comment... well last I checked there was very little public access to Lake Winnipesaukee. So little in fact that I would hazrd that dayboaters make up less than 5% of the boats being driven on the lake at any given time.

Woodsy

[AC2717]

I agree Woodsy 100% about NH citizens owning the lake,

but why do people say public access to the lake with boats is limited:
at almost every marina on the lake you can get into the lake with a boat - irwins, thurstons, channel, lakeport, meredith, shep browns, to name a few
also at hotels such as christmas island. then you have all the town launches such as meredith, center harbor, meredith, alton, ellacoya

I can count in my head (i know amazing I can count without my fingers and toes) 5 in paugus bay alone, then over 10 around the lake, and I am sure I am missing some

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Benny

Some “get” the jist of the original question, but most don’t. We all agree that safe boating laws certainly apply to all who enjoy the lake, and that these laws need to be enforced by the State. We also agree that the State manages natural resources for the enduring good and welfare of the people of New Hampshire by implementing regulations intended to preserve the ecological balance of the lake and its tributaries.
What seems to be a bone of contention is an apparent lack of written decree that defines acceptable “etiquette” pertaining to rights and privileges of waterfront owners who are taxed so heavily for their property. Landowners, almost without exception, accept their responsibility as stewards of the fragile lake environment. Winnipesaukee has +/-300 miles of shorefront. Hypothetically assuming shorefront is rationed into 100 ft wide lots, each landowner shares 1/15840th stewardship (worst case). This vested interest in the lake certainly should have more influence than the out-of-state boater who invests $15 to launch their boat. Unfortunately, the stereotypical daytimer is observed to exercise little or no respect for those of us who pay the price for our little bit of heaven. Consider the analogy of renting a car vs. using your own car. The rental is thrashed, abused, and soiled. The owned car is maintained and clean. There is no pride-of-ownership for the rental.

Let's first offically define "etiquette": imply observance of the formal requirements governing behavior in polite society

Far as the lake goes, property owners have no more 'rights' or 'privledges' than anyone else when it comes to the lake itself. The amount of property tax levied is just that tax on property NOT on the lake. The fact a piece of property may include acutal shoreline is a unique feature that determines it's overall value. That's why if you look at any tax map for waterfront property the property boundary is the shore, not extending into the lake. Any features you wish to use that encroach into the lake is a matter of public interest, into a public body of water, and therefore regulated by the state in the best interest of the public.

To suggest that landowners are good stewards of the lake is comical, if that were the case then why have very strict guidelines for shorefront development? Answer, the 'stereotypical' landowners have taken it upon themselves to say hey I own my little piece and I'm going to do with it as I damn well please in many cases to the detriment of the lake itself. The worst offenders are the big money places, clear cutting, putting in lawn to the water's edge, polluting the water with ferilizer, throwing up these huge often times ugly places that take away from the natural beauty of the natural shore line. How obnoxious can you get to see some 20K SQFT mansion on a clear cut lot that is used only at best a couple weeks out of the year? I would also assert that most of the shorefront owners are also out of staters too because us natives can swing those places. So what's your point other than to present an entire premise that is argumentative?

Now as a native and resident of NH, should that give me any more access to the lake than anyone else? Of course not. The lake is not an exculsive club it's a resource for everyone to enjoy no matter where you are from or what means you happen to have. I have just reciently been one of the lucky ones to now own a little slice of heaven too, but that makes me no better than the day boater I used to be. I welcome all to enjoy the area and all it has to offer, and whether you be a day boater, land owner or just using a public beach. In the end it's God's creation that we all share, so treat it with the respect it deserves and good grief learn how to play well with others!

[Irrigation Guy]

If landowners did such a great job of preserving the lakes for the rest of us to enjoy we really wouldn't need the DES would we?

Edit: Great Post Maxum, you beat me to it with much more detail.

[BroadHopper]

You sound like are on the wrong lake! You should move to Squam Lake where the Squam lake Association just about tell you when you can potty!

[Woodsy]

AC...


My comment about public access is pretty straightforward. Public ramps are by thier nature free for all to use. Most of the launch facilities on Lake Winnipesaukee are pay to play... your launching @ marinas or motels. There are only 2-3 PUBLIC launch ramps (owned & maintained by the State of NH for the enjoyment of residents & visitors alike) These ramps are disgraceful.. small poorly maintained facilities with little or no parking or docking. Most "public" launches such as Meredith & Gilford are for RESIDENTS only! or a fee applies. If they allow you to launch at all...

Woodsy

[Onshore]

In fairness, as a shorefront property owner Benny does have some rights that a non-shorefront owner does not have; particularly the right to wharf out, or in other words build a dock. (Please note, this is not an unlimited right but that is another conversation for anoher time.) As for regulating ettiquette, no this is simply not possible. While we would all hope that people would respect each other, some people just don't have a clue. Anchoring a boat 40 ft off a family's dock so you can sit with your significant other and enjoy the sunset is one thing. Getting caught up in the moment and ending up half-naked and making out or worse despite the fact that the family has kids... on the dock... not ok. Needless to say the parent that called to complain was very angry. Unfortunately, making inconsiderate behavior illegal won't stop it from happening. The people who just don't care, still won't care...

As for shorefront property owners being stewards of the environment, I suspect reality lies somewhere between what Benny and Maxum put forward. There is a small percentage of people who are environmentally aware and very pro-active who are truly "stewards" of the environment. At the other end of the spectrum there is a smaller percent of people who are remarkably selfish that really don't care about the impact of their actions on others. In my experience the vast majority lie someplace in between. They don't buy waterfront thinking they about to become stewards of the environment. They simply want a special place they can enjoy with the people that are important to them. (...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.) Because the place is special to them, if you explain that there is something that poses a risk to it and that further, there is something they can do to protect it or improve it, the overwhelming majority will do the environmentally responsible thing.

[Benny]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Let's first offically define "etiquette": imply observance of the formal requirements governing behavior in polite society

Far as the lake goes, property owners have no more 'rights' or 'privledges' than anyone else when it comes to the lake itself. The amount of property tax levied is just that tax on property NOT on the lake. The fact a piece of property may include acutal shoreline is a unique feature that determines it's overall value. That's why if you look at any tax map for waterfront property the property boundary is the shore, not extending into the lake. Any features you wish to use that encroach into the lake is a matter of public interest, into a public body of water, and therefore regulated by the state in the best interest of the public.

To suggest that landowners are good stewards of the lake is comical, if that were the case then why have very strict guidelines for shorefront development? Answer, the 'stereotypical' landowners have taken it upon themselves to say hey I own my little piece and I'm going to do with it as I damn well please in many cases to the detriment of the lake itself. The worst offenders are the big money places, clear cutting, putting in lawn to the water's edge, polluting the water with ferilizer, throwing up these huge often times ugly places that take away from the natural beauty of the natural shore line. How obnoxious can you get to see some 20K SQFT mansion on a clear cut lot that is used only at best a couple weeks out of the year? I would also assert that most of the shorefront owners are also out of staters too because us natives can swing those places. So what's your point other than to present an entire premise that is argumentative?

Now as a native and resident of NH, should that give me any more access to the lake than anyone else? Of course not. The lake is not an exculsive club it's a resource for everyone to enjoy no matter where you are from or what means you happen to have. I have just reciently been one of the lucky ones to now own a little slice of heaven too, but that makes me no better than the day boater I used to be. I welcome all to enjoy the area and all it has to offer, and whether you be a day boater, land owner or just using a public beach. In the end it's God's creation that we all share, so treat it with the respect it deserves and good grief learn how to play well with others!

You get it, and you express a strong opinion. Of course there are other perspective views. It's a good thing we live in America, where we can exchange opinions in public.
I still believe shoreowners care more about the lake environment than daytimers. There's a significant number of properties that aren't part of a funnel development, that don't live in McMansions, that don't fertilize grass to the water's edge, and are maintained by families that have been here for generations. These folks do a good job of it.

[Altonbayicefishingfool]

Too bad that jacka$$ lawyer from Mass. Who lives next to Ames farm couldn't chime in here...I'm bet he knows all the rules and laws..
To a previous post, last I knew it was a privilege not a right to put a dock in, with permits and rules that apply.. Kinda like a boater safety card, privilege not a right!!!

[Bear Islander]

Waterfront property owners are the "littoral owner" of the waters adjacent to their property. I know most people believe this is not true and that every citizen has full rights to every square inch of the lake, but that is just not true. These riparian rights to the lake go back hundreds of years.

So you can keep telling yourselves that property owners do not have any more rights to the lake than anyone else, or you can actually do an internet search for "littoral owner" and then learn something new.

And just so nobody has their blood pressure get to high I will tell you that I have no right to prevent you from boating or swimming in the little piece of Lake Winnipisaukee that I am the littoral owner of.

[jrc]

While we shorefront landowners have littoral and riparian rights. Those rights give us clear right to use this water for some uses that the average citizen cannot. I can build a dock in front of my land, you can't.

But those rights don't extend to hindering navigation, either for fishing or just a temporary anchoring. Those rights don't prevent me from swimming in front of land. Of course common courtesy prevents me.

[SteveA]

... from Winnipesaukee.com in 2004.

Skip has some very good posts in the thread..

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...light=littoral

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

We have three or four large blueberry bushes overhanging the water and last summer we came home from work to find a family in their pontoon boat happily picking berries.
We didn't really mind because we have plenty of berries,plus they had kids with them that were pretty cute and enjoying themselves.

Those could have become VK blueberry pancakes!

[Bear Islander]

Thank you for the reminder.


W. A. Sundell & a. vs. Town of New London
SUPREME COURT OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
119 N.H. 839, December 12, 1979
HEADNOTE
1. Waters--Public
Both at common law and by statute, title to waters of a great pond vest in the State for public use. RSA 271:20 (Supp. 1977).
2. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Although statute, vesting title of lake waters in the State for public use, provides that no individual shall have any rights not common to all citizens, littoral owners have common law property rights which are more extensive than those of the public generally, which could not be taken without compensation, and which were not affected by the statute. RSA 271:20 (Supp. 1977).
3. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Private rights of littoral owners include but are not limited to the right to use and occupy the waters adjacent to their shore for a variety of recreational purposes, the right to erect boat houses, and to wharf out into the water.
4. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Although waters of great ponds are public waters, littoral owners have private property rights which are separate from, independent of, and more extensive than the public's rights.
5. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Since owners of shore property around lake have private littoral rights separate from the public's rights, court did not err in declining to direct verdicts for the defendant town, where littoral owners brought a private nuisance claim against the town seeking damages for interference with their littoral rights, and not for interference with rights common to the public.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Thank you for the reminder.


W. A. Sundell & a. vs. Town of New London
SUPREME COURT OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
119 N.H. 839, December 12, 1979
HEADNOTE
1. Waters--Public
Both at common law and by statute, title to waters of a great pond vest in the State for public use. RSA 271:20 (Supp. 1977).
2. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Although statute, vesting title of lake waters in the State for public use, provides that no individual shall have any rights not common to all citizens, littoral owners have common law property rights which are more extensive than those of the public generally, which could not be taken without compensation, and which were not affected by the statute. RSA 271:20 (Supp. 1977).
3. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Private rights of littoral owners include but are not limited to the right to use and occupy the waters adjacent to their shore for a variety of recreational purposes, the right to erect boat houses, and to wharf out into the water.
4. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Although waters of great ponds are public waters, littoral owners have private property rights which are separate from, independent of, and more extensive than the public's rights.
5. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Since owners of shore property around lake have private littoral rights separate from the public's rights, court did not err in declining to direct verdicts for the defendant town, where littoral owners brought a private nuisance claim against the town seeking damages for interference with their littoral rights, and not for interference with rights common to the public.

It says what everyone else did above- you can wharve out. That is if you can get DES to say OK

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Thank you for the reminder.


W. A. Sundell & a. vs. Town of New London
SUPREME COURT OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
119 N.H. 839, December 12, 1979
HEADNOTE
1. Waters--Public
Both at common law and by statute, title to waters of a great pond vest in the State for public use. RSA 271:20 (Supp. 1977).
2. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Although statute, vesting title of lake waters in the State for public use, provides that no individual shall have any rights not common to all citizens, littoral owners have common law property rights which are more extensive than those of the public generally, which could not be taken without compensation, and which were not affected by the statute. RSA 271:20 (Supp. 1977).
3. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Private rights of littoral owners include but are not limited to the right to use and occupy the waters adjacent to their shore for a variety of recreational purposes, the right to erect boat houses, and to wharf out into the water.
4. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Although waters of great ponds are public waters, littoral owners have private property rights which are separate from, independent of, and more extensive than the public's rights.
5. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Since owners of shore property around lake have private littoral rights separate from the public's rights, court did not err in declining to direct verdicts for the defendant town, where littoral owners brought a private nuisance claim against the town seeking damages for interference with their littoral rights, and not for interference with rights common to the public.

Look up:
Littoral
Ownership
Rights

You have stated you have ownership of the lake. False (see definition of littoral)

Rights (of which are regulated by state) does not mean ownership. Hence MP, DEP or any other myriad of organizations could take away and restrict (as they already do) the ability to install a dock, lift, mooring, swim line, swim raft, etc.

That case does not grant exclusive rights to much of anything.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

It says what everyone else did above- you can wharve out. That is if you can get DES to say OK

And you no longer have the right to erect a boathouse, unless it's located over a dredged inlet within the property AND certain conditions are met.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

It says what everyone else did above- you can wharve out. That is if you can get DES to say OK

You are engaging in selective reading.


Although waters of great ponds are public waters, littoral owners have private property rights which are separate from, independent of, and more extensive than the public's rights.


What you or I say, means little. What the Supreme Court says, means much.

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by Benny

.......I still believe shoreowners care more about the lake environment than daytimers. There's a significant number of properties that aren't part of a funnel development, that don't live in McMansions, that don't fertilize grass to the water's edge, and are maintained by families that have been here for generations. These folks do a good job of it.

You are now classifying people into two groups. I know many boaters that clean up after others and many homeowners that have no regard for the environment. There are many good points made in this thread and but this statement is weak.

[RailroadJoe]

And once again, those that write the laws confuse the Heck out of everything and everyone. Use common English that is easily understood. Good thing the Constitution is in good English. That I can understand. You don't have to have a PhD to know what is says.

[jrc]

Bear Islander, while there are littoral rights they are not germane to the original questions.

"Just how close can fishermen / rafters come to my dock?"

As cloase as they want, as long as they stay in the water.

"Is there any regulation that may impose restrictions pertaining to invasion of landowners' privacy?"

No, there is no right to privacy from people on public property found in any NH law or in common law littoral rights.

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by Skip

...

The only right here is the right of all the people to enjoy an entity that belongs to everyone.

Hope this helped explain it a little better,

Skip

When all is said and done, then all is done and said.

[BroadHopper]

This is the biggest argument against the Shoreline Protection Act. Those that are trying to appeal it feels they are violated such as the abiliity to build a boathouse.

While I side with the small group of 'tree huggers' to protect the environment, the shorefront property owners who wants to do what they damn will please because they spend a lot of money on their property are the ones who needs to be constrained!

[Onshore]

Dug-in boathouses are still allowed. Boathouses constructed over the lake (public trust) are prohibited.

[TheProfessor]

One of those small portable canister air horns would work.

[MikeF-NH]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

I recently had a fisherman get his lure snagged on a bush on my shore front. He docked his boat at my dock. Got out, walked on my shore to retrieve his lure.

Very unacceptable. That lure should have become mine!

yes...that is a tough decision for a fisherman. If you were present, I would certainly ask before stepping foot outside the boat onto your property but if you were not present, leaving the lure there poses a risk of hooking one of your family members or a pet. I think most fishermen, think retreiving the lure is the most courteous thing to do. The "counter argument" could be "well then don't cast at my property" but remember, they aren't casting at your property (there are no fish in the shrubs, on your dock or in your boat)...they are casting at the water around your property (which is not your property).

I think the fisherman retreiving his lure was not doing it to deprive you of a lure...he/she was doing it to remove a hazard accidently put there.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Tonight, 5 of us were sitting on the deck and a boat with 2 young couples stopped 75ft in front of our place. They killed the engine and one of the young men jumped up and went to the outboard engine. It got my attention as I was concerned they might be having trouble. He proceeded to lean on the motor, unzip his fly and pee in the lake. As he rezipped, I yelled out HEY! The four of them looked at us and I figured they got the message.


Then one of the young ladies went to the back of the boat and I figured, this is going to be interesting. She climbed down the ladder until her A$$ was in the water and paused for 30 seconds. Then she got back in the boat. They started the boat and left.


Fishermen can retrieve all the lures they want on my dock, but I don’t think that peeing in the lake right in front of my house comes even close to reasonable etiquette.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Tonight, 5 of us were sitting on the deck and a boat with 2 young couples stopped 75ft in front of our place. They killed the engine and one of the young men jumped up and went to the outboard engine. It got my attention as I was concerned they might be having trouble. He proceeded to lean on the motor, unzip his fly and pee in the lake. As he rezipped, I yelled out HEY! The four of them looked at us and I figured they got the message.


Then one of the young ladies went to the back of the boat and I figured, this is going to be interesting. She climbed down the ladder until her A$$ was in the water and paused for 30 seconds. Then she got back in the boat. They started the boat and left.


Fishermen can retrieve all the lures they want on my dock, but I don’t think that peeing in the lake right in front of my house comes even close to reasonable etiquette.

And that is the perfect example of boaters who give other boaters a bad reputation.

[RailroadJoe]

A video of them using the lake and then posted on YOUTUBE might help. Of course, then you have the legal problem if they talk, because you did not get their permission. Either way I would have taken pictures and given them to the MP.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Tonight, 5 of us were sitting on the deck and a boat with 2 young couples stopped 75ft in front of our place. They killed the engine and one of the young men jumped up and went to the outboard engine. It got my attention as I was concerned they might be having trouble. He proceeded to lean on the motor, unzip his fly and pee in the lake. As he rezipped, I yelled out HEY! The four of them looked at us and I figured they got the message.


Then one of the young ladies went to the back of the boat and I figured, this is going to be interesting. She climbed down the ladder until her A$$ was in the water and paused for 30 seconds. Then she got back in the boat. They started the boat and left.


Fishermen can retrieve all the lures they want on my dock, but I don’t think that peeing in the lake right in front of my house comes even close to reasonable etiquette.

We see that happen quite often when boats are moored.

[Webbsatwinni]

1st, this was a great Sunday read on the desk watching the early people fishing and drinking my coffee!

2nd, most people fishing are respectful and it's great to be sharing the lake in all kinds of ways and I think that is something that is lost on some people.

There are two things that I have experienced that I feel go beyond sharing. One is that people fishing troll up with thier main motor running directly into the area in front of our dock while we have kids in the water. Last year we had one guy go between two kids that were less than 15ft apart. The other is casting into the area that the kids are, we have had people cast into our dock area over the heads of the kids.

I'm into sharing the lake and feel that each person does it in his / her own way and we should all respect that. But there is a line of safety and common sence and we have seen that line crossed too many times since being on the island.

[Alton Bay]

And what do you suppose all the ice fishermen do to relieve themselves all winter when they are out fishing and drinking?? And where do all those beer cans go?

It's not an issue unique to summer :-(

[NH_boater]

I fish almost everyday. I run across very rude fisherman occasionally, the ones who approach the Spot where you are already fishing and cast right into your area. I refuse to do the same and am careful to avoid other fisherman. I could not imagine casting into swimmers or other boats. I sometimes find people relaxing on the docks as I approach. I apologize for disturbing them and they always are very nice back to me. Sometimes a simple smile and a wave gets the same back.

Rude people, often from other regions do damage the environment. We find rude people in all aspects of our lives, work, driving, shopping, boating, etc. I try my best to ignore them and enjoy my day.

[Winnisquamguy]

Originally Posted by Alton Bay

And where do all those beer cans go?It's not an issue unique to summer :-(

I find that almost all bring the trash with them...in the summer are you cleaning up tons of beers cans, or bottles?

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Alton Bay

And what do you suppose all the ice fishermen do to relieve themselves all winter when they are out fishing and drinking?? And where do all those beer cans go?

It's not an issue unique to summer :-(

Not ALL ice fishermen do this! Some and many of us take pride in how we conduct ourselves and do not throw trash (beer cans, etc) in the the lake. What we carry in we carry out. Yes there are some slobs out there but you don't have to be an ice fishermen to be a slob. Please don't lump us all in the same category!

Dan

[Alton Bay]

Sorry, no. I didn't mean to say that all ice fisherman litter. The boat ramp near my home often has a bunch of beer cans strewn about at the end of the weekend. I will attest to that.
Certainly not everyone does it, but there are some that do :-(

I don't ice fish, but seriously...where does one pee when ice fishing??

[RailroadJoe]

In Alton Bay is the best restroom of any of the towns with a dock. Wolfeboro has a small one in the restaurant at the docks, Meredith is a big ? and as for the others, well.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Alton Bay

I don't ice fish, but seriously...where does one pee when ice fishing??

Most will go to the nearest shoreline or island nearby. My bob house and a few others I know are also equipped with these. http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Produ...=bathroom+bags They work well. No need to pee on the ice! I can guarantee you that more pee goes in the lake during the summer than it does during ice fishing season...

[Happy Gourmand]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Tonight, 5 of us were sitting on the deck and a boat with 2 young couples stopped 75ft in front of our place. They killed the engine and one of the young men jumped up and went to the outboard engine. It got my attention as I was concerned they might be having trouble. He proceeded to lean on the motor, unzip his fly and pee in the lake. As he rezipped, I yelled out HEY! The four of them looked at us and I figured they got the message.


Then one of the young ladies went to the back of the boat and I figured, this is going to be interesting. She climbed down the ladder until her A$$ was in the water and paused for 30 seconds. Then she got back in the boat. They started the boat and left.


Fishermen can retrieve all the lures they want on my dock, but I don’t think that peeing in the lake right in front of my house comes even close to reasonable etiquette.

Braun Bay, anybody? Ever notice that the water there seems to have a different "tint" than the rest of the lake?

[sky's]

this is mostly opinion? but i'll take a mountain view on top of Red Hill any day over waterfront property. as the economy gets better the lake will become more and more noisy. no thanks

[tis]

I have seen snowmobilers more than once, stop, zip it down and go on the ice. That probably isn't as bad as summer time in the lake though. Freezing must help do something?????