Hot Water Problem

[CateP]

Hi Everybody-new home owner here and struggling with oil furnace operations after moving up from the land of natural gas.

My problem is that my hot water runs out really quickly. Morning shower, normal shower head, goes to luke warm within a few minutes. Can't fill a tub very fast--takes 20 minutes at low flow rate. The domestic hot water is tankless and created by the boiler coils. No indirect storage tank. I've talked to a couple of plumbers and the oil furnace cleaning guy at Eastern Propane.

So here are my options and I'd like opinions:

• Acid wash coils to remove sediment
• Replace coils
• Install $$ indirect tank (40 gallons, 60 gallons?)
• Install Rinnai propane tankless water heater $$$

I am joining a group that installs solar hot water systems for homeowners based on the "barn raising" concept. (everyone helps a homeowner with the install and then when it's your turn everyone helps you) I have a very nice south -facing roof and a solar system would be great, but I'm probably looking at a couple years down the road.

Bottom line question--what is the best (and most cost effective) solution to my hot water problem at this time?

[AC2717]

if were me I would look into a tankless systems, but at least move to a separate water tank and would go to a 40 gallon if just you most of the time, 60 if you expect guests a lot!!

[Slickcraft]

We have hot water using coils in the oil furnace and no external tank. You can run one shower as long as you want and two for normal shower duration. We never run out of hot water.

Replacing the coils may be the least expensive near term fix if you are thinking of solar down the road.

For a separate external unit 40 gal should be fine for one or two people but a 60 gal unit may not cost a lot more as installation charges should be about the same for 40 or 60. The 60 gal unit may be better on any future home resale.

[SIKSUKR]

I'm with Slickcraft on this one.I think my coil was around $50 when I changed it 5 years ago.Mine had a leak.I have plenty of hot water and never run out.1000,000 btu boiler.Also check to see if your boiler temp is possibly set too low.Should be around 170-180ish.

[NoBozo]

Tankless hot water is nice because it only has to keep three or four gallons of water hot ALL the time...which also likely supplys hot water for baseboard heating. With a seperate 60 gallon hot water heater, (as an add on to the tankless if you want,) you have to keep 60 gallons of water at 180 degrees ALL the time, so it's going to be more expensive.

There are "Upper' and "Lower" temperature limit switches on the furnace inside a little tin (Honeywell) box, that can be adjusted (within limits) to adapt to your showering style. We keep our lower limit at 140 and the upper limit at 180 degrees. That's probably as low as you would want to go. You can raise both limits to say 160 and 200 respectively, using the little adjustment knobs inside the box.

When the water temp drops to 160, the furnace will come on for as long as it takes to get the temp up to 200, at which point the furnace will go off. If you are taking a shower during this cycle, it will take longer. I don't think I would raise the upper limit beyond 200. (Don't want the water to boil. ) NB

EDIT: Set the upper limit "at least 20 degrees above the lower limit."

EDIT 2: I think I would use the system As Is for awhile until you become more familiar with how it works.

[CateP]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Tankless hot water is nice because it only has to keep three or four gallons of water hot ALL the time...which also likely supplys hot water for baseboard heating. With a seperate 60 gallon hot water heater, (as an add on to the tankless if you want,) you have to keep 60 gallons of water at 180 degrees ALL the time, so it's going to be more expensive.

There are "Upper' and "Lower" temperature limit switches on the furnace inside a little tin (Honeywell) box, that can be adjusted (within limits) to adapt to your showering style. We keep our lower limit at 140 and the upper limit at 180 degrees. That's probably as low as you would want to go. You can raise both limits to say 160 and 200 respectively, using the little adjustment knobs inside the box.

When the water temp drops to 160, the furnace will come on for as long as it takes to get the temp up to 200, at which point the furnace will go off. If you are taking a shower during this cycle, it will take longer. I don't think I would raise the upper limit beyond 200. (Don't want the water to boil. ) NB

EDIT: Set the upper limit "at least 20 degrees above the lower limit."

EDIT 2: I think I would use the system As Is for awhile until you become more familiar with how it works.

I think there is a bigger problem here because I am running out of hot water very quickly. The furnace cleaning guy was here yesterday as was a plumber and I assume both looked at the temperature settings.

[Pineedles]

Yes, it is a lot of dollars but tankless propane is wonderful. Solar is OK, but battery backup during no sunshine would drain the reserve I would guess pretty fast. We have had the tankless for 4 years now and couldn't be happier. Plus, having propane on site is a nice if you decide to get a generator for power outages. Which I hear happens every so often.

[ITD]

I installed a 60 gallon Super stor off of my boiler in place of the tankless coil and am very pleased with the results. Super store also makes a tank for solar which is backed up by a boiler (I don't think the fuel source matters), this would probably work for you, install it now on your boiler, then when you are ready you can hook up the solar. Solar is expensive to install, but oil isn't cheap any more either.

Good luck.

http://www.htproducts.com/superstorsolarrange.html

[BroadHopper]

If you are planning on solar down the road, why not upgrade the current system so that it is a backup to the solar system?

First of all, I will not let a plumber tell me my heating requirement needs. I would call an HVAC contractor. One of the best in the area is Jeffery Seymour on Gilford Ave in Laconia. He is extremely knowledgeable of the latest in gas appliances. He is honest to a fault, he was a minister.

In my case, I had a plumber talking me into converting to an oil furnance with a seperate hot water holding tank. Big Bucks! I already have a NG furmance and an electric hot water heater.

Jeff installed a tankless NG furnance and domestic hot water. It is so small it hangs on the wall. It is so efficient the flue is PVC piping. I am extremely please with the system. Instead of cycling off and on the heating, it senses the outside temperature as well as the inside temperature and adjust the forced hot water temperature accordingly. Pretty slick!

While he was at it, he exended the gas lines to the kitchen stove, the clothes dryer and the fireplace. After swapping my appliances my electric bill was cut more than half, while I did not notice that must of an increase in my gas bill.

[Just Sold]

On a tankless system the most common problem with not having enough hot water can be the coils clogged with sediment and then the mixing valve that sets the water temp is another common problem. The valves fail clogging with scale and sediment and either jam or stick and sometime they move but are not adjusting the water mix. They are located just outside of the tankless coils on the out (hot) side and normally have a black plastic knob with some increment markings. The mixing valve mixes in cold water to adjust the hot water to the desired temperature. If it is not working properly you will get cool or limited hot water.

You also mentioned that the water pressure was low. Are you on a well or community water sytem? If you are on a well I would also check pressure tank at the pressure guage to see that the pressure is high enough - 30 pounds and more is normal. Community water should have sufficient water pressure. A clogged tankless coil or mixing valve can also reduce your water pressure/volume.

Hope this helps.

[CateP]

Here is some more relevant information. The house was not occupied for almost two years. The furnace and house systems were shut down this past winter. The water for the house comes from a private well with no "treatment."

Eastern quoted me a price of $850 to replace coil.

[no-engine]

IF YOUR OIL FURNACE is maybe near it's last legs, research.

I have friends who had a large old sausage-shaped boiler, which had to go. It was one zone for entire house. I can't remember their source of hot water, but may have been electric heater, very inefficient as I recall! They researched and decided on a propane system to heat existing baseboard hot water system. It's in basement and wall mounted direct vent system named Baxi. The installer was able to make several zones without lots of new plumbing. The domestic hot water is on-demand! They had south face on part of roof, and incorporated solar pre-heating of the tap water. In summer they might get all hot water needs, but they realize that it's pre-heating the water before it goes to the on-demand Baxi system...

I think you can search google for Baxi propane. Don't be mislead by quasi "solar installers". I am not a guru, but do research. South to southwest roof slopes are a must, and there is an ideal angle, but I can't tell you.

[CateP]

Originally Posted by no-engine

IF YOUR OIL FURNACE is maybe near it's last legs, research.

I have friends who had a large old sausage-shaped boiler, which had to go. It was one zone for entire house. I can't remember their source of hot water, but may have been electric heater, very inefficient as I recall! They researched and decided on a propane system to heat existing baseboard hot water system. It's in basement and wall mounted direct vent system named Baxi. The installer was able to make several zones without lots of new plumbing. The domestic hot water is on-demand! They had south face on part of roof, and incorporated solar pre-heating of the tap water. In summer they might get all hot water needs, but they realize that it's pre-heating the water before it goes to the on-demand Baxi system...

I think you can search google for Baxi propane. Don't be mislead by quasi "solar installers". I am not a guru, but do research. South to southwest roof slopes are a must, and there is an ideal angle, but I can't tell you.

Oil furnace was new in 2003. Still has many years to go. Thanks for the other info on solar. It would be good to have a system that can integrate into a future solar system.

[ITD]

what brand boiler do you have? Sounds like the coil is plugged, another coil type system will probably do the same unless you figure out why it is happening, usually hard water.

[Just Sold]

Originally Posted by CateP

Here is some more relevant information. The house was not occupied for almost two years. The furnace and house systems were shut down this past winter. The water for the house comes from a private well with no "treatment."

Eastern quoted me a price of $850 to replace coil.

The house being vacant for 2 years would in my opinion be a root cause for your problems. I believe that the mixing valve and the tank coils are the culprit. I have seen the valve be the cause of water temp issues many times and it is the cheaper item to replace.
I would find a local plumber that is recomended by posters here. Since I do not live at the lake I have no one to suggest.

[CateP]

Originally Posted by ITD

what brand boiler do you have? Sounds like the coil is plugged, another coil type system will probably do the same unless you figure out why it is happening, usually hard water.

Boiler brand is "Ultimate". I'm thinking this a hard water issue that will keep repeating.

[LIforrelaxin]

Just some quick comments here...

-- replacing the coils should fix your problem as others have stated. However depending on your condition of your un treated well water you my find you have a problem again sooner then later. I had this type of system growing up, and with hard water with lots of sediment things clogged quickly.

-- I suggest putting in a whole house filter no mater what you do....

Now the option I saw no one discuss here, is switching your water heating, to an electric water heater. This is my recommendation... you will find that you have more consistent hot water....It also gives you the option, to run it off of Solar electricity down the road..... If you go this route make sure you invest in a high quality water heater, like Rheem/Rudd unit. There is simply no comparing these units to those bought at Home Depot or Lowes.

As for capacity I have a 40 gallon unit, and we usually get two good showers out of the 40 gallons in the morning 15 - 20 minutes each... with say 30 mins in between... The kids take showers at night 10-15 minutes each, back to back once again no problem....

[tis]

If I were you, I would get another opinion. I would call Wolfeboro Oil or Terry Biehl. They both do furnaces and plumbing.

[BroadHopper]

I notice you mention well water. In this geographic area the water is very hard. I would put in a water softener. If there is a lot of iron/mineral a filter should be used. You clothes will appreciate that.

Radon in the water is common. You may want to check that out and install a radon filter.

Once all this is taking care of, you will notice your pipes and hot water heater will last a lot longer!

As for drinking water, an osmosis filter is a lot cheaper in the long run than buying bottled water!

[Belmont Resident]

I would get a good plumber involved. It may or may not be the boiler coils. If you are on well water you can usually count on replacing things like the mixing valve, auto fill valve, and expansion tank due to well water sediment about every 10 years unless you have a filter on your water line.
I would go to an electric hot water heater or when you do have the problem fixed look into a timer for your boiler for the summer. We started last year turning off the boiler in the morning and turning it back on when we needed it, usually the next morning. And it only takes about 5 minutes for our water to come up to shower temp.
We saved ½ a tank of oil last summer doing this. That is about $400 in savings.
Good luck with your new house.
I am surprised the home inspector did not catch this problem.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by CateP

Here is some more relevant information. The house was not occupied for almost two years. The furnace and house systems were shut down this past winter. The water for the house comes from a private well with no "treatment."

Eastern quoted me a price of $850 to replace coil.

Wonderful concept - water heater part of boiler/heating system. Does not work in some circumstances - very well.

Tankless are great. You will need propane and you will need to vent it - normally throught the roof but can be power (electricity) vented out side. And all costs a great deal. And no one or few know how to fix these.

The advice above about installing a stand alone 30 or 40 gallon electric tank heater is a simple and less expensive alternative. They last 10 - 20 years. And then just buy another one.

Or bite the bullit and pay the $850.00 after shopping around for prices.

[no-engine]

If water filtration is added, no need to filter the water that goes to any outside fawcetts! Have plumber research & quote that separation of cold water.

Unfortunately, there is no one answer to all these issues. Hard water will definitely leave sediment and issues in mixing valves, etc.
Obtain multiple opinions and your own research.

If you ever think about having a hot tub spa, here's an idea to save the electricity to heat the water when it's filled or changed: have plumber install a hot water fawcett next to the cold. I added an inexpensive Y shaped hose thing to mix the hot & cold outside, then a short garden hose to fill hot tub. Thus, saving a lot of electricity and time to heat the water. In my town, the municipal water in winter is as cold as 34 degrees because the pipes are under the street and not insulated by snow! Hard to believe, but yes that cold.

[KDL]

I agree with the others on checking your mixing valve. If it's not already turn all the way up you might want to try turning it up a bit. If it helps that might be the culprit.
Another option on a tank would be something like this tank from http://www.vaughncorp.com/SEPCO.pdf
I installed one a few years ago. It has two heat exchangers and electric. I reserved one heat exchanger for a future solar installation, the other I use off my pellet stove. You could use one for solar and the second one off your existing boiler. You could then switch to the electric as a primary or back-up source. It would give you a lot of choices for heating your domestic hot water depending on the season or fuel cost.

[NoBozo]

OMG Cate: With all this disparity in advice....You have a BIG problem deciding....WHO is right..?? Even I am distracted. NB

Cate: In spite of ALL this advice...It is NOT as complicated as it seems...............

[TheProfessor]

I have a tankless propane water heater in one of my buildings. Works great. Instant on with water flow. Mine was installed in new construction. You do have to read up on flow rates and water pressure for maximum efficieny and proper operation.

But the tankless does have drawbacks. Instant on means that every time you turn a hot water faucet the heater goes on. And if power vented the motor turns on. You don't get instant hot water until the hot water reaches the faucet. True for all/most types. But to get real hot water you have to wait for the instant heated water to get to faucet. And as stated above few know how to fix these. If you go instantaneous tankless then ask manufacturer name of authorized repair person. That person may not be the installer. All plumbers will install these. Few plumbers can fix such or are an authorized repair person/company. And the initial cost can be high. They do need to be vented. And if not out roof then out side wall. More work and expense if retro fitting such.

In another building I have the old fashioned 30 gallon electric water heater. No moving parts. Nothing to break except the elements and depending on minerals in water may last a long time with no worries. The NH Coop and some plumbing stores have electric water heaters that are plastic with a thick styrofoam insulation. Some have a lifetime warranty. A tad more expensive then the standard electric water heater.

If I was constructing a new home I probably would put in a tankless instantaneous water heater. For an older home I would just put in an ordinary electric 30 or 40 gallon tank. And not have to worry about moving parts or repairs.

[Reilly]

I am not soliciting work as I will not travel to Wolfboro , But as a local plumber I will give you my opinion. What are your needs ?? amount of people? company? dishwasher? #of baths? etc

[fatlazyless]

30 or 40-gal electric hot water heaters heat up fast, like in 30-minutes, and can usually be installed upstairs someplace in a closet somewhere that's close to the most used shower. For economy of electricity simply turn it off when away for more than one day. For about 15-dollars you can buy a replacement heat tranfer electrode, and go replace the old electrode u-self as needed in maybe 3-5 years or so.

As always, a home insurance policy is a very excellent and important item to maintain......keep that insurance policy current & paid .....

[Lakepilot]

Originally Posted by tis

If I were you, I would get another opinion. I would call Wolfeboro Oil or Terry Biehl. They both do furnaces and plumbing.

Cate, I agree with Tis - you need a second opinion. Terry is a good guy and I'd add Scott Thurston to the list. Call Barbara Thurston at Thursty Water. Both Scott and Terry are in Wolfeboro.

[wifi]

Hey, for the heck of it, while you are in the luke warm water state, feel the pipes at the mixing valve. If there is a big difference in temperature between the hot water from the furnace and the output pipe, suspect the valve. If they are the same, look back at the coils/furnace as the main problem.

[Puffin]

I have a tank-less hot water system in my house, also on untreated well water, now 22 years old. we had a similar problem with lose of hot water while taking a shower. Always seemed to happen while my teenaged daughter was taking a shower. HAHA.

Had a plumber come out and he replaced a mixing valve problem solved. Seems that the due to the untreated water, the mixing value gets corroded overtime. Now 4 showers in the morning and plenty of hot water.

I think it cost was about $100.00 parts and labor if I recall.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by CateP

Boiler brand is "Ultimate". I'm thinking this a hard water issue that will keep repeating.

That's the same boiler I have, it's a very good boiler. If money is an issue, I would do the acid wash and consider a water test/ softener. If money is not an issue, I would go with a superstor. You could also replace the tankless coil, the cost is $350 to $550 for a coil depending on the size, so the price you got isn't that far off, it's not a difficult job, drain the boiler, cut 2 pipes, unbolt the coil ( mine had stainless bolts), install new coil and gasket, solder pipes, fill boiler. You may want to get another quote to keep Eastern honest. I assume the guy you used made sure the mixing valve isn't the issue. Good luck.

[CateP]

My there certainly are a lot of options and opinions out there...here's some more that I heard from people I called yesterday.

Propane tankless units last 10 years.
Oil fired indirect tank is more efficient and cost effective
Electric tank will cost less to install, but more in the long run

I think before I plunk down any amount of $$ I'm going to confirm that the mixing valve is indeed NOT the source of the problem.

Thanks to everybody who as chimed in here.

BTW-As far as usage goes, it is just me in the house full-time right now, but I plan on having visitors and maybe even a "special someone" some day.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by CateP

My there certainly are a lot of options and opinions out there...here's some more that I heard from people I called yesterday.

Propane tankless units last 10 years.
Oil fired indirect tank is more efficient and cost effective
Electric tank will cost less to install, but more in the long run

I think before I plunk down any amount of $$ I'm going to confirm that the mixing valve is indeed NOT the source of the problem.

Thanks to everybody who as chimed in here.

BTW-As far as usage goes, it is just me in the house full-time right now, but I plan on having visitors and maybe even a "special someone" some day.

Cate;

I think that is a very wise choice to check the mixing valve before going any further. Normally with hard water, this is the first thing that goes. It's inexpensive and very easy to replace and would certainly be my first thing to look at.

Good Luck!

Dan

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by CateP

My there certainly are a lot of options and opinions out there...here's some more that I heard from people I called yesterday.

Propane tankless units last 10 years.
Oil fired indirect tank is more efficient and cost effective
Electric tank will cost less to install, but more in the long run

I think before I plunk down any amount of $$ I'm going to confirm that the mixing valve is indeed NOT the source of the problem.

Thanks to everybody who as chimed in here.

BTW-As far as usage goes, it is just me in the house full-time right now, but I plan on having visitors and maybe even a "special someone" some day.

I beg to differ on the oil fired indirect tank. Oil futures does not look good.

The best way to find out what is the most efficient way to heat your home and hot water is request an energy audit from PSNH. It will be the best $100 you ever spent! My gf 3,000 sq ft lake home uses less than $3000 in propane a year, including hot water, dryer, kitchen stove and propane fireplace!

[JPC]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I beg to differ on the oil fired indirect tank. Oil futures does not look good.

The best way to find out what is the most efficient way to heat your home and hot water is request an energy audit from PSNH. It will be the best $100 you ever spent! My gf 3,000 sq ft lake home uses less than $3000 in propane a year, including hot water, dryer, kitchen stove and propane fireplace!

You get more BTUs output out of a gallon of oil then a gallon of Propane. And Energy North is selling Propane at $3.89/gal as of last week. I'm sure its going to go up more. My house was total electric back in 1979. I couldn't afford to heat with electric. I have a Super Store hot water tank running off a the propane furnace and it is less expensive to run then electric. I pre-buy propane so that saves me form the fluctuations in the market. Of course if the market goes down then I'm stuck.

Cate, go with the mixing valve. My son had the same problem with hot water and he replace the mixing valve. All fixed.

[WINNOCTURN]

Cate,

If you are thinking of propane check out Our Town Energy Alliance

http://www.otchoice.com/Prices2011_12.htm


We have used them for over ten years and have done well with pricing.

[beagle]

We are also in WB and in addition to radon, we have arsenic in our well water, very common in the Granite State. You should definitely get your water checked for both radon and arsenic. If present, you will need both a water softener and an As removal system as you can get As poisoning from both ingesting and breathing in contaminated steam (hot showers). You can get your water tested thru either Integrated Water in Moultonboro or Thursty in Wolfeboro.

[no-engine]

Any of the fuel providers have good service staff, to my knowledge.
If you are needing service from another "plumber", I know people who have been happy with Minute Man Plumbing, located in Meredith.

[CateP]

Okay. Had a guy over here and it is definitely NOT the mixing valve. We did a temperature test and the hot water out of the boiler dropped off after a minute or two of running the hot water.

So..its the coil for sure.

Thinking of bypassing this oil-fired domestic hot water system all together since it runs 365/24/7. It's looking like a propane tankless on-demand system will cost me about as much as installing an indirect oil-fired 40 gallon system. Definitely not going the electric hot water heater route.

Having a very educational experience with this issue and interesting to hear what has happened with others.

[CateP]

Originally Posted by beagle

We are also in WB and in addition to radon, we have arsenic in our well water, very common in the Granite State. You should definitely get your water checked for both radon and arsenic. If present, you will need both a water softener and an As removal system as you can get As poisoning from both ingesting and breathing in contaminated steam (hot showers). You can get your water tested thru either Integrated Water in Moultonboro or Thursty in Wolfeboro.

Curious about this arsenic and radon issue. If it is indeed a health hazard, why hasn't there been an outbreak of health issues in the area for the past century when people didn't have these fancy (expensive) filtering systems? Any records of people dieing from arsenic poisoning in their shower or drinking water? Has there been a sudden increase in arsenic and radon in the water over the past decade or so? Just a little skeptical of a natural condition that has existed for centuries in this area suddenly being a health risk and requiring we all buy products to fix.

[RLW]

It has been this readers believes that most if not all the problems that have been discussed here on the thread should have been caught by a good home inspector. I personally have seen all of these caught plus many additional problems by excellent (but expensive) home inspectors. I think the extra money spent to find the problems before purchase is the best way so one has a very good idea what the costs and solutions are before purchase.

[DickR]

Originally Posted by CateP

Curious about this arsenic and radon issue..... Just a little skeptical of a natural condition that has existed for centuries in this area suddenly being a health risk and requiring we all buy products to fix.

It's all a matter of relative risk. A century ago, other things got you first or masked any problem developing from radon exposure. Then, too, is the fact that most houses older than 10-20 years typically leak air like a sieve, and the resulting dilution of any radon seeping up from the ground through the basement keeps the exposure risk down.

Radon in ground water is a different matter, though, as heating the water reduces the solubility of any gas in it and releasing it into the air, as when taking a shower. Radon content of well water not a problem everywhere, and exposure time from showering is very low anyway, but radon content is something easily measured if you want peace of mind. You can draw your own sample and take to the state lab in Concord, to keep cost down. Their web site has information on sampling technique and analysis cost.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by RLW

It has been this readers believes that most if not all the problems that have been discussed here on the thread should have been caught by a good home inspector. I personally have seen all of these caught plus many additional problems by excellent (but expensive) home inspectors. I think the extra money spent to find the problems before purchase is the best way so one has a very good idea what the costs and solutions are before purchase.

The few times I and my family closed on homes, the mortgage lender usually hires the home inspectors. In one case regarding an internet lender the realtor hired the home inspector. Sounds like the home inspectors would be biased toward the realtor for a smooth sale.

Having said that, shouldn't the buyer have a say on who will do the home inspection?

[SIKSUKR]

Ok.Lots of good advice here.As someone who does almost all my own servicing of mechanicals and enjoys the satisfaction of repairing things for short money,here is what I would do.First,as suggested many times above,I would check the mixing valve by doing what was posted above and see how different the temp is before and after the mixing valve.These valves are only about $100 or less and usually can be replace in 5 minutes if the same type is used.If the mixing valve seems ok I would check to see if the problem is just at the shower.If you still have hot water at your sinks then I would look at the mixing valvein your shower.Most shower valve controls have limiting cams under the handle that can be changed.It could have been set up too low to start with.If you find your shower starts hot and cools down quick then I would definately look at the coil.Pretty easy replacement when I did mine.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

The few times I and my family closed on homes, the mortgage lender usually hires the home inspectors. In one case regarding an internet lender the realtor hired the home inspector. Sounds like the home inspectors would be biased toward the realtor for a smooth sale.

Having said that, shouldn't the buyer have a say on who will do the home inspection?

I always hired my own home inspector above and beyond whoever else has come to do the inspection. When one does that you know who the inspector is working for. Comes to push or shove I have never heard of others having the inspector hired by anyone other than the purchasing person.. It is up to that person to make their offer on the house with the knowledge of what has to be done to the home to make everything proper.

[beagle]

Cate, what you are thinking of is high exposure--the Arsenic and Old Lace type. Here is info from the NH des on long term low level exposure, and it is enough to scare me into paying to fix it!

Long Term (chronic) Effects
The most sensitive signs of chronic arsenic poisoning involve the skin. First, a freckling of small dark spots may appear on the trunk, neck, face, arms and legs. Next, small corn-like growths can develop, especially on the palms of the hand and soles of the feet. Although skin effects are often the first observable sign of arsenic toxicity, researchers consider these effects to result from ingested arsenic rather than exposure through the skin. With higher exposures, other symptoms may include numbness, tingling or burning sensations in the arms and legs, fluid accumulation causing swelling in the face and ankles, diarrhea, stomach cramps, and anemia. Eventually, liver,
kidney, and central nervous system damage may occur. Recent evidence indicates that arsenic may increase the risk of several other diseases including diabetes, lung, and cardiovascular disease. Basic research suggests that arsenic may cause some of these diseases by interfering with chemical messengers such as hormones that act as signals in the body to regulate many processes.

Carcinogenic (Cancer-causing) Effects
Corns resulting from arsenic exposure may ultimately develop into non-melanoma forms of skin cancer. Researchers have also observed a relationship between higher levels of arsenic in drinking water and an increased risk of bladder, lung, kidney, liver, and prostate cancer. The evidence for skin, bladder, and lung cancer are the strongest. Arsenic was a Group A (known
human carcinogen) under the old Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) classification system and would fit into the "human carcinogen" classification group under the current cancer guidelines.

[LIforrelaxin]

Now that Home inspectors have come up in this thread, lets make some comments on what Cate has stated and why a home inspector may have missed the issue....

The most important statement is that the systems in the house where shut down this past winter. If this was all done properly all the water was drained, As the system was brought back on line, all the plumbing really needed to be flushed, with things like mixing valves and heater coils by passed during the process. If this wasn't done then a large amount of sediment could have been trapped in the system. A home inspector has one shot to look at the house, He can't decipher that there is enough sediment in the water system to cause a problem a week, or two down the road. So when he did his testing things may have checked out ok....

As sediment from the well, and plumbing system work it way through during the initial start up, the setiment is going to collect in low spots.... plugging up valves, heating coils etc.

While I agree that in Normal circumstances a home inspector should have caught this, this situation with the major house system being shut down for an extended period of time, does have a baring on the situation.....

[LIforrelaxin]

Cate,

I understand the skeptism of the electric water heater... But look into the math, if fuel prices keep going up, Propane and Oil become costly... I have a family of 4 on a electric hot water tank, and have no issues, as far as operating costs, well our electric bill is around 100$ a month... note this doesn't include heating, or an electric dryer. We do however power several computers and assorted electronics....

The big distinction as I mentioned in my earlier post, is to buy a high quality water heater, not one from Lowes or Home depot...Also if you are going to have multiple people taking shower in succession go with a bigger capacity.

[tis]

Originally Posted by RLW

I always hired my own home inspector above and beyond whoever else has come to do the inspection. When one does that you know who the inspector is working for. Comes to push or shove I have never heard of others having the inspector hired by anyone other than the purchasing person.. It is up to that person to make their offer on the house with the knowledge of what has to be done to the home to make everything proper.

I agree. I never heard of an inspector being hired by anyone OTHER than the buyer. Wow!

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by tis

I agree. I never heard of an inspector being hired by anyone OTHER than the buyer. Wow!

If you are new to the area, how does one go about in finding a quality home inspector? Most folks would ask the realtor.

That's what happen to my gf. After the inspection, I question why the wooden floor boards are curled up? The a$$hole inspector replied 'Because they laid the floor boards wrong!' I doubt that as finished floor boards can only be laid one way.

Come to find out, there were no plastic sheeting on the ground in the crawlspace under the floor and there was unsufficient foundation venting. The house was only a few years old and was built by a reputable builder. I also found out that the code inspector should have caught it.

Because there was a one year home owner warrantee on the house, an insurance company had to pretty much replace the foundation because of mold and mildew. A year later, my gf found mold and mildew growth around the walls. She sold the house. God only knows if the new owners ever found out.

[tis]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

If you are new to the area, how does one go about in finding a quality home inspector? Most folks would ask the realtor.

That's what happen to my gf. After the inspection, I question why the wooden floor boards are curled up? The a$$hole inspector replied 'Because they laid the floor boards wrong!' I doubt that as finished floor boards can only be laid one way.

Come to find out, there were no plastic sheeting on the ground in the crawlspace under the floor and there was unsufficient foundation venting. The house was only a few years old and was built by a reputable builder. I also found out that the code inspector should have caught it.

Because there was a one year home owner warrantee on the house, an insurance company had to pretty much replace the foundation because of mold and mildew. A year later, my gf found mold and mildew growth around the walls. She sold the house. God only knows if the new owners ever found out.

You have a very good point. It is very hard if you are new to an area to hire anyone and be sure he/she will do a good job. People have different opinions too so it is a tough problem. I know I have heard some recommendations on here of people I would never recommend and also know some that have never been mentioned that are great. I guess all you can do is ask more than one business/person and after a while you find someone you are comfortable with. Still, no guarantee.

[SIKSUKR]

Your current tankless should give you all the hot water you need.Before I go spend money on water heaters and storage tanks,I would do what I suggested in my last post.

[CateP]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Your current tankless should give you all the hot water you need.Before I go spend money on water heaters and storage tanks,I would do what I suggested in my last post.

We did a check on the mixing valve and did indeed diagnose the issue as coming from the boiler coil. (not individual showers either) Replacing the coil can be a simple task if the bolts on the cover plate are clean and don't break off. Mine are rusted and corroded from moisture. If they break off while trying to do the repair, then the guy has to drill into the bolt and risks going in too far and puncturing the boiler. (a few HVAC, plumber guys told me this)

I admire you that you can do these types of repairs. I bet you save a TON of money.

I have been through a week of luke-warm showers and am not a happy camper. I have weighed all the options carefully and in my case have decided to invest in a Rinnai on-demand propane system. Estimated usage..150 gallons propane per year. (less than electric)

Thanks for your thoughtful replies guys.

(I'd rather be sailing)

[GsChinadoll]

We have a tankless and must warn you to wait until the water runs hot before you get into the shower. All of the cold water in the pipes has to come out first, just sayin

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Because there was a one year home owner warrantee on the house, an insurance company had to pretty much replace the foundation because of mold and mildew. A year later, my gf found mold and mildew growth around the walls. She sold the house. God only knows if the new owners ever found out.

A known mold and mildew problem should have been disclosed to potential buyers.

[RLW]

How would a high pressure reverse flush work cleaning out the domestic water heater coils.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by TMI Guy

A known mold and mildew problem should have been disclosed to potential buyers.

That was left to the realtor to tell the buyers. I have no clue if they mentioned it to the buyers or if the home inspection caught it. It did not come up during the closing.

After that experience, I hate to buy a fairly new home. With shoddy builders being called reputable, code inspectors not doing their jobs, home inspectors not worth a damn and shady realtors. The buyers really have to know their stuff.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

That was left to the realtor to tell the buyers. I have no clue if they mentioned it to the buyers or if the home inspection caught it. It did not come up during the closing.

The selling agent should have been advised of the problem, and then he/she would have an ethical obligation to notify potential buyers.

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

That was left to the realtor to tell the buyers. I have no clue if they mentioned it to the buyers or if the home inspection caught it. It did not come up during the closing.

After that experience, I hate to buy a fairly new home. With shoddy builders being called reputable, code inspectors not doing their jobs, home inspectors not worth a damn and shady realtors. The buyers really have to know their stuff.

No sir it should have been on the seller disclosure sheet that the seller signs!

[KBoater]

Originally Posted by GsChinadoll

We have a tankless and must warn you to wait until the water runs hot before you get into the shower. All of the cold water in the pipes has to come out first, just sayin

This is so true

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Cate,

I understand the skeptism of the electric water heater... But look into the math, if fuel prices keep going up, Propane and Oil become costly... I have a family of 4 on a electric hot water tank, and have no issues, as far as operating costs, well our electric bill is around 100$ a month... note this doesn't include heating, or an electric dryer. We do however power several computers and assorted electronics....

The big distinction as I mentioned in my earlier post, is to buy a high quality water heater, not one from Lowes or Home depot...Also if you are going to have multiple people taking shower in succession go with a bigger capacity.

Thank you.

Yes, do look at the math.

Years ago there was a stigma associated with anything electric for heating/cooling. Those were the days when oil and propane were cheap.

Tankless are all the rage now. Use propane only when unit is on. Great. If you have a power vent then that electric motor is running every time you turn on hot water faucet. On and off and on and off.

What are the intial costs of tank electric versus power vented tankless? Has anyone explained flow rates and water pressure to you? What size copper water pipes serve the home? 1/2 in or 3/4 inch? Best read up on such. And who is going to fix this tankless water heater?

With a tank electric water heater - as Ron Popeil states: "Set it and forget it".

[BroadHopper]

The electric rate in NH has been low and for a good reason. In 2000, less than 5% of the fuel used to produce electricity was natural gas. Today that figure rose to 50%. Elecricity is produced in NH by three main fuels, Natural Gas, nuclear and coal. Gas, diesel and oil plants are replaced by natural gas.
Natural gas prices are almost the same as it was in the 1980's. Natural gas futures remain low, but that may change due to demand. Natural gas demands have been on a steady uprise since gas deposits in the US became known to the public. 54% of commercial and residential buildings today uses natural gas.

If you have a natural gas pipeline nearby, the gas campany will work with you in getting the line to your house. If there is a street with no gas line, if homeowners signed up for gas, the gas company ran a pipeline up the street at no cost to the owners. the gas company will work with a subcontractor to run individual gas lines to the homes at reduced cost.

[RLW]

If I remember correctly this young lady posted for a hot water issue with her boiler that she was having and now we have gone to energy and all about the cost. How did we get to this point???? It sure is awful easy to get off subject in these threads.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by RLW

If I remember correctly this young lady posted for a hot water issue with her boiler that she was having and now we have gone to energy and all about the cost. How did we get to this point???? It sure is awful easy to get off subject in these threads.

This was the posters orginal question:

"Bottom line question--what is the best (and most cost effective) solution to my hot water problem at this time?"

There is a purchase and/or repair price, there is an installation price, and a maintenance cost.

Some of these answers are based on the cost of energy - or in this case the cost hot water and the total cost to remedy the hot water issue. Both short term and long term.

[dpg]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

If you are planning on solar down the road, why not upgrade the current system so that it is a backup to the solar system?

First of all, I will not let a plumber tell me my heating requirement needs. I would call an HVAC contractor. One of the best in the area is Jeffery Seymour on Gilford Ave in Laconia. He is extremely knowledgeable of the latest in gas appliances. He is honest to a fault, he was a minister.

In my case, I had a plumber talking me into converting to an oil furnance with a seperate hot water holding tank. Big Bucks! I already have a NG furmance and an electric hot water heater.

Jeff installed a tankless NG furnance and domestic hot water. It is so small it hangs on the wall. It is so efficient the flue is PVC piping. I am extremely please with the system. Instead of cycling off and on the heating, it senses the outside temperature as well as the inside temperature and adjust the forced hot water temperature accordingly. Pretty slick!

While he was at it, he exended the gas lines to the kitchen stove, the clothes dryer and the fireplace. After swapping my appliances my electric bill was cut more than half, while I did not notice that must of an increase in my gas bill.

It is so efficient the flue is PVC piping

It's called a high efficiency unit, all are vented with PVC.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by CateP

Curious about this arsenic and radon issue. If it is indeed a health hazard, why hasn't there been an outbreak of health issues in the area for the past century when people didn't have these fancy (expensive) filtering systems? Any records of people dieing from arsenic poisoning in their shower or drinking water? Has there been a sudden increase in arsenic and radon in the water over the past decade or so? Just a little skeptical of a natural condition that has existed for centuries in this area suddenly being a health risk and requiring we all buy products to fix.

You're already starting to think like a New Hampshire-ite, welcome!

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Many homes in NH have plenty of radon in air and water. Our house is no different. Byproduct of being the Granite State I guess.

On a previous thread I did some research about the real risk of radon. What I found interesting was the 10X increase in risk if the resident was a smoker. I guess it went from tiny to 10 times tiny.

I suspect the bacon home fries will get me long before the radon.

CateP, I can't wait for the post a few years down the line when you become a true local when you post that you replaced the furnace yourself with one you found on Craigs List.