New Formula Boat Dealer

codeman671 · 02-24-2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigSauer

Lake Winnipesaukee businesses are decimated from the economic conditions and short-season. I don't think it is fair to make assumptions relative to "flooring plans" and partnership negotiations. PBM is not the only marina at the lake who has made adjustments to their product line to attract new customers and adjust to New Hampshire legislation changing the boating landscape at the lake. Example: Silver Sands and Fountain Powerboats breaking ties.

Let's not assume that the requirement for representing the product line will be to carry inventory of Yacht 45, FasTech 382, 40 cruisers and 400 Super Sports. That is not the market segment for Winnipesaukee anymore.

East Coast Flightcraft in Middleton Mass. has that covered.

There is more to the story of Silver Sands parting ways with Fountain. Lack of warranty support from Fountain being a major one.

SigSauer · 02-24-2011, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

There is more to the story of Silver Sands parting ways with Fountain. Lack of warranty support from Fountain being a major one.

Thanks Codeman......again there is always more to the story then meets the eye.

robmac · 02-24-2011, 04:36 PM

Sig,you seem to have the inside track. Can you tell us anything?

Seadoo · 02-24-2011, 10:41 PM

Contacted Formula today. They said that Lakeport Landing is still listed as a dealer and can actually still order a Formula for themselves or for a customer. Also they are still a 100% full wokring Formula Service Department. I'd check with both marinas before i buy.

Think spring!

SigSauer · 02-25-2011, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmac

Sig,you seem to have the inside track. Can you tell us anything?

- The owners of PBM have very strong, long-standing reputations/relationships with key individuals in the boating industry. This stems from their prior history and involvement in off-shore powerboat racing.

- They have very skilled mechanics and already service several Formula Boats from the marina across the bay. (Along with many other boat brands.)

- Lake Port Landing was visited by Formula Representatives and a discussion took place regarding the future of their partnership.

- These same representatives visited PBM, subsequent to those discussions, and a new relationship/partnership was formed.

- PBM will be stationed in the Formula Exhibit at the New England Boat Show.

- It is obvious that there will be a transition period for Lake-Port Landing. They are still carrying inventory which they need to sell. A customer calling into Formula is not going to get "the behind the scenes" business dealings of what is happening with their dealership network. Especially when the prior dealership relationship still has inventory to sell.

- Formula is also not going to risk the quality of their brand, coming out of the frying pan (Lakeport Landing) and into a fire if they did not have confidence that PBM could represent and service their product effectively.

These are business decisions. They are made carefully and planned out accordingly. Certainly if they are not lucrative for both parties, there will be more changes. That is the way it goes. I would expect that the situation with the previous dealership will evolve as the inventory they are carrying is depleted.

That is all I have for now.

meredith weekender · 02-26-2011, 05:31 PM

The Formula web site lists the NH dealer as PBM with their Meredith address.

bigpatsfan · 02-27-2011, 02:13 PM

What is interesting is if you put the Manchester NH zip code into the dealer locater feature on the Formula WEB site it shows a NY dealership… looks like Formula needs to spend some time updating their WEB site

Formula Boats Northeast
351 S Main St
Freeport, NY 11520
516 378-8700 ph.

mikeraguso@gmail.com
(really a gmail address)

Seadoo · 02-27-2011, 08:36 PM

Ahh yes it appears you are right. I to did go to Formula's website and punch in the zip. PBM comes up. I decided to give lakeport a call today to see what was up:

They said two main things:
1) If customers would like to order a new Formula that can be done through their dealership, they still have a great connection with Formula and can order any boat wanted. I am under the impression that because LL can order boats still; their prices will most likely be lower than PBM..

2) They have decided to remain a Formula Dealer but made a business choice to i guess not bring in new Formulas? one can assume but none can be sure why this was done. Quick search on Formula’s site indicates a lot of dealers were ‘dropped.’ Like the NY dealer the email is ‘@formulaboats.com’ I wonder if Formula now sells? Who knows I can’t afford one of these anyway!
Think spring everyone!

LadyoftheLake · 02-28-2011, 04:06 PM

I was at the Boston Boat Show Feb 26 and I visited the Formula boat display. Paugus Bay Marina had a 31 and 35 foot Formula SS on display. Kevin and Cory were there speaking with the visitors. We have had our Boat serviced and stored with them for the past 7 years and I am extremely satisfied with their customer service. Reggie is one of the best mechanics on the Lake. I don't know the exact count, but I would say that they service and store at least 20 plus boats from our Club at the Lake. The fact that Formula approached PBM for the dealership, shows that they have confidence in them. I wish PBM the best with their new Formulas. I am sure all boat dealers are hoping for an improvement in the economy and lower gas prices.

Bentley Boy · 03-01-2011, 11:59 AM

I think this would be a good time to stop the speculation and attempt to set the record straight on this matter.

I have known the owners of both marinas for more than thirty years. In fact one of the PBM owners worked for Lakeport Landing in the late seventies and early eighties. These are all good people who have worked hard at being successful in the very seasonal marina business.

Some facts:

1. Lakeport Landing's relationship with Formula has been great and goes back 31 years. For several years Lakeport Landing was the largest Formula dealer in the world!! Not a small achievement. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement for years but, when the recession hit, boat dealers everywhere were caught with new unsold inventory and needed help from the manufacturers. Formula's excellent special financing packages became not available because of banks' reluctance to lend money. As the new inventory aged, Lakeport Landing and other Formula dealers called and met with Formula executives but no assistance was offered. Formula essentially gave up its entire dealer network that took years to build and decided to sell directly to the public as SeaDoo speculated.. The New York address in bigpatsfan's previous post is actually Formula itself. Now Formula had current models to sell without a middle man while the poor dealers were stuck with new prior years models. How can any dealer compete when the factory is selling current product directly to the public at a lower price?

2. The notion that the Diamond Island accident had anything to do with Formula giving its franchise to PBM is wrong. If it were so it would not have taken Formula more than 2 1/2 years to do so. While it was not the best publicity, the truth is that the boat involved was not a "go fast". It was a 370 Sun Sport which is known in the industry as a "day boat". The unexpected conditions that night were impossible without radar or GPS. Speed had nothing to do with it.

3. As good as PBM may be, they will never be able to handle the full Formula line. It takes special equipment to lift boats over 30 feet. These boats are heavy. PBM will probably focus its sales on the smaller entry level boats.

4. PBM has limited dockage and relies mainly on rack storage which is less expensive than dockage but far less convenient for the boat owner.

5. Floor Plan will be difficult for PBM to inventory new boats and then sell them in a short period of time.

So, lets all of us wish both marinas the best. All three entities have made a business decision that hopefully will work out for all.

gf2020 · 03-01-2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley Boy

I think this would be a good time to stop the speculation and attempt to set the record straight on this matter.

And you are in a position to do this why?

LIforrelaxin · 03-01-2011, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley Boy

I2. The notion that the Diamond Island accident had anything to do with Formula giving its franchise to PBM is wrong. If it were so it would not have taken Formula more than 2 1/2 years to do so. While it was not the best publicity, the truth is that the boat involved was not a "go fast". It was a 370 Sun Sport which is known in the industry as a "day boat". The unexpected conditions that night were impossible without radar or GPS. Speed had nothing to do with it.

BB,

With all do respect, your second comment, is way off base. Yes it may have taken 2.5 years for this to happen, but to believe that the Diamond Island accident had no influence here, is not easy to just right off. If there was a contract in place, it needed to expire. If Formula had pulled from LakePort to early, and the case had worked out differently for the Blizzards they would have been open to a lawsuit.

How much or how little the Diamond Island Accident had to do with this, is purely speculation. However to say that it had nothing to do with it is a stretch.

Just my .02$

brk-lnt · 03-01-2011, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

BB,

How much or how little the Diamond Island Accident had to do with this, is purely speculation.

So, you post admitted speculation, and someone else posts what appears to be verifiable data points?

The Diamond Island crash could certainly have been a turning point in the relationship, but it is just as easy to believe that it really had no bearing on the matter.

In the grand scheme of things I don't find the fact that Formula is changing their local relationships to be all that noteworthy. As a brand/manufacturer they appear to be making changes across the board. Several other boat brands, brands that were not associated with any 'incidents', have changed dealers, gone away, or re-appeared at local dealerships.

As others have said, both LBM and Lakeport Landing appear to be upstanding dealers who take care of their customers. It's natural for people to want to create rumor and gossip around things like this. Usually though the truth is much less interesting than the speculation...

NoRegrets · 03-01-2011, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley Boy

....
3. As good as PBM may be, they will never be able to handle the full Formula line. It takes special equipment to lift boats over 30 feet. These boats are heavy. PBM will probably focus its sales on the smaller entry level boats.
....

Thanks for the post. All good points but I have a friend that kept his 38 Fountain rack stored by PBM. They were great to him and his boat.

Cobalt 25 · 03-03-2011, 10:56 PM

I purchased a new Formula, which remains our current boat, from Lakeport Landing in 2001, so I'm somewhat familiar with their operation.

While at the Boston Boat Show on Sunday, I spoke with a representative from Formula. He was not directly involved with Lakeport or PBM. I asked him why Lakeport was no longer dealing Formulas. He very politely and professionally told me nothing, other than to say in broad generalities that it was a business decision.

I later met and spoke with Cory from PBM and was very impressed with his friendly and helpful attitude.

I, too, wish both dealerships the best of luck.

Peter

bigpatsfan · 03-04-2011, 02:42 PM

What is surprising is the fact that Formula decided to go with PBM instead of Channel Marine who have a long history of selling a similar style of boat.

I am guessing the departure of the Littlefields may have something to do with this but again, it is amazing that Formula decided to go with a fairly new dealer.

I wish both dealerships good luck

robmac · 03-04-2011, 07:11 PM

I was at the show today and looked at Formula boats. Never sat in any Formula that I sank to the surface ( hard bottom ) of a seat in this brand. Maybe changes in manufacturing was a contributing factor?

Cobalt 25 · 03-05-2011, 11:28 AM

Have you been enjoying a lot of donuts lately?

Peter

robmac · 03-05-2011, 06:41 PM

No sorry,maybe the cushions aren't what they used to be.

Bentley Boy · 03-08-2011, 07:51 PM

After months of discussion and face to face meetings, Formula and Lakeport Landing Marina have announced that their relationship will remain essentially intact and that Lakeport Landing will become a "Non Stocking" dealer. This is a standard industry term which simply means that Lakeport Landing will not be stocking new 2011/2012, etc. boats. Lakeport Landing will be able to order for customers boats from Formula and will have access to all other Formula products and services. This is obviously the result of a great relationship that has lasted for more than thirty years and had nothing to do with the very unfortunate Diamond Island accident.

This is a great opportunity for the Paugus Bay Marina, Lakeport Landing and Formula itself to keep the various Formula models as one of the preeminent quality boat lines on Winnipesaukee. Please wish all concerned your best.

Rusty · 03-08-2011, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley Boy

After months of discussion and face to face meetings, Formula and Lakeport Landing Marina have announced that their relationship will remain essentially intact and that Lakeport Landing will become a "Non Stocking" dealer. This is a standard industry term which simply means that Lakeport Landing will not be stocking new 2011/2012, etc. boats. Lakeport Landing will be able to order for customers boats from Formula and will have access to all other Formula products and services. This is obviously the result of a great relationship that has lasted for more than thirty years and had nothing to do with the very unfortunate Diamond Island accident.

This is a great opportunity for the Paugus Bay Marina, Lakeport Landing and Formula itself to keep the various Formula models as one of the preeminent quality boat lines on Winnipesaukee. Please wish all concerned your best.

IMHO you are insulting the intelligence of quite a few forum members by coming on here and trying to convince us that Formula didn’t make their business decision based on the publicity that Eric Blizzard has had in the past few years. Good try though!

chipj29 · 03-09-2011, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

IMHO you are insulting the intelligence of quite a few forum members by coming on here and trying to convince us that Formula didn’t make their business decision based on the publicity that Eric Blizzard has had in the past few years. Good try though!

Seems to me that you are doing the same thing.

Rusty · 03-09-2011, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

Seems to me that you are doing the same thing.

You are exactly right "chipj29" , my comments hold about the same credibility as "Bentley Boy" comments do. The only people who really know why this move was made are the owners of Formula.

SIKSUKR · 03-09-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

IMHO you are insulting the intelligence of quite a few forum members by coming on here and trying to convince us that Formula didn’t make their business decision based on the publicity that Eric Blizzard has had in the past few years. Good try though!

That makes no sense at all.If that was the case Formula would have severed ALL ties to Lakeport Marina.Why have any connection then?

codeman671 · 03-09-2011, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

That makes no sense at all.If that was the case Formula would have severed ALL ties to Lakeport Marina.Why have any connection then?

Your post makes the most sense so far.

This makes no sense! Why have 2 dealers within such a close proximity? I can certainly understand why Formula would cut ties, but being that they have not completely done it just seems odd unless this is some sort of gradual phase-out since Lakeport does not have any other lines they represent.

sum-r breeze · 03-09-2011, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

Your post makes the most sense so far.

This makes no sense! Why have 2 dealers within such a close proximity? I can certainly understand why Formula would cut ties, but being that they have not completely done it just seems odd unless this is some sort of gradual phase-out since Lakeport does not have any other lines they represent.

My old Italian Grandmother had a saying she used very frequently. She used to say "If you do bad things, bad things happen to you."

The Breeze
Wave 'cuz I'll be waving back

ApS · 03-10-2011, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

IMHO you are insulting the intelligence of quite a few forum members by coming on here and trying to convince us that Formula didn’t make their business decision based on the publicity that Eric Blizzard has had in the past few years. Good try though!

What part of the post insulted your intelligence?

This part?

Quote:

This is obviously the result of a great relationship that has lasted for more than thirty years and had nothing to do with the very unfortunate Diamond Island accident

sa meredith · 04-16-2011, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley Boy

After months of discussion and face to face meetings, Formula and Lakeport Landing Marina have announced that their relationship will remain essentially intact and that Lakeport Landing will become a "Non Stocking" dealer. This is a standard industry term which simply means that Lakeport Landing will not be stocking new 2011/2012, etc. boats. Lakeport Landing will be able to order for customers boats from Formula and will have access to all other Formula products and services. This is obviously the result of a great relationship that has lasted for more than thirty years and had nothing to do with the very unfortunate Diamond Island accident.

This is a great opportunity for the Paugus Bay Marina, Lakeport Landing and Formula itself to keep the various Formula models as one of the preeminent quality boat lines on Winnipesaukee. Please wish all concerned your best.

While I certainly cannot dispute what you are saying, as I have no proof, your comments here make little on no sense. I've been in the new auto business for 23 years, and assuming things in boating work in a similar fashion with regard to factory and dealers, how can what you say be possible?
If you are correct, am I to understand that:
A customer can go over to PBM, take several hours of Cory's time. Get all the info they want with regard to price an product. Test drive a boat and look at boats that PBM is floor planning, and therefore servicing the note. And then...hope across the puddle to Lakeport and place their order after PBM has done all the work and handled the finacial burden of educating the customer? PBM has no protection? Sorry...no buying it. Unless PBM gets a piece of the action, regarless of which place places the order. I can't see it working any other way, if what you have stated is true.

SigSauer · 04-17-2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa meredith

While I certainly cannot dispute what you are saying, as I have no proof, your comments here make little on no sense. I've been in the new auto business for 23 years, and assuming things in boating work in a similar fashion with regard to factory and dealers, how can what you say be possible?
If you are correct, am I to understand that:
A customer can go over to PBM, take several hours of Cory's time. Get all the info they want with regard to price an product. Test drive a boat and look at boats that PBM is floor planning, and therefore servicing the note. And then...hope across the puddle to Lakeport and place their order after PBM has done all the work and handled the finacial burden of educating the customer? PBM has no protection? Sorry...no buying it. Unless PBM gets a piece of the action, regarless of which place places the order. I can't see it working any other way, if what you have stated is true.

LL was so over priced on Formula's to begin with, nobody is going to negotiate with PBM and get a better deal at LL. Look at PBM's current listing for a 2011 270BR at $89,900. That same style boat at LL last year was priced over $100k.

Yankee · 04-17-2011, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigSauer

LL was so over priced on Formula's to begin with, nobody is going to negotiate with PBM and get a better deal at LL. Look at PBM's current listing for a 2011 270BR at $89,900. That same style boat at LL last year was priced over $100k.

Just to be fair, here's the Formula retail price(s) for a 2011 270BR:

http://www.formulaboats.com/bowrider...spx?id=1304227

Notice all the different options available. IMO, feeble attempts to campare boat prices without even acknowleging engine and accessory options is foolhearted.

SigSauer · 04-17-2011, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yankee

Just to be fair, here's the Formula retail price(s) for a 2011 270BR:

http://www.formulaboats.com/bowrider...spx?id=1304227

Notice all the different options available. IMO, feeble attempts to campare boat prices without even acknowleging engine and accessory options is foolhearted.

Yankee, in your expert opinion, would you agree that a boat with "zero" appointments (which is not the case) offered at $89k is a good start compared to the retail base price for a 270BR with a 350mag at $119k?

Feeble......give me a break.

codeman671 · 04-17-2011, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigSauer

Yankee, in your expert opinion, would you agree that a boat with "zero" appointments (which is not the case) offered at $89k is a good start compared to the retail base price for a 270BR with a 350mag at $119k?

Feeble......give me a break.

When was the last time you saw any dealer asking full retail for a boat? I can't say that I ever have...

Breakwater · 03-29-2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley Boy

I think this would be a good time to stop the speculation and attempt to set the record straight on this matter.

I have known the owners of both marinas for more than thirty years. In fact one of the PBM owners worked for Lakeport Landing in the late seventies and early eighties. These are all good people who have worked hard at being successful in the very seasonal marina business.

Some facts:

1. Lakeport Landing's relationship with Formula has been great and goes back 31 years. For several years Lakeport Landing was the largest Formula dealer in the world!! Not a small achievement. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement for years but, when the recession hit, boat dealers everywhere were caught with new unsold inventory and needed help from the manufacturers. Formula's excellent special financing packages became not available because of banks' reluctance to lend money. As the new inventory aged, Lakeport Landing and other Formula dealers called and met with Formula executives but no assistance was offered. Formula essentially gave up its entire dealer network that took years to build and decided to sell directly to the public as SeaDoo speculated.. The New York address in bigpatsfan's previous post is actually Formula itself. Now Formula had current models to sell without a middle man while the poor dealers were stuck with new prior years models. How can any dealer compete when the factory is selling current product directly to the public at a lower price?

2. The notion that the Diamond Island accident had anything to do with Formula giving its franchise to PBM is wrong. If it were so it would not have taken Formula more than 2 1/2 years to do so. While it was not the best publicity, the truth is that the boat involved was not a "go fast". It was a 370 Sun Sport which is known in the industry as a "day boat". The unexpected conditions that night were impossible without radar or GPS. Speed had nothing to do with it.

3. As good as PBM may be, they will never be able to handle the full Formula line. It takes special equipment to lift boats over 30 feet. These boats are heavy. PBM will probably focus its sales on the smaller entry level boats.

4. PBM has limited dockage and relies mainly on rack storage which is less expensive than dockage but far less convenient for the boat owner.

5. Floor Plan will be difficult for PBM to inventory new boats and then sell them in a short period of time.

So, lets all of us wish both marinas the best. All three entities have made a business decision that hopefully will work out for all.

Bentley...I must say, you lost all credability with me as soon as you said "It was a 370 Sun Sport which is known in the industry as a "day boat". The unexpected conditions that night were impossible without radar or GPS. Speed had nothing to do with it." I don't know your connection with the accident, if any, but if you saw that boat or the trial...you wouldn't have come to this conclusion!

Bentley Boy · 03-30-2011, 11:59 AM

You, Mr. Breakwater, have the credibility problem. You clearly do not even have a basic understanding of the different models that Formula builds. Among those models are bow riders, cruisers, yachts and the SS lines. The "go fast" Formulas are known as FasTechs which are narrow beam boats with racing style seats, equipment and the like. FasTechs are built for optimum speed and performance and have competed well in off shore American Power Boat Association (APBA) sanctioned events.

The SS line are true "day boats" as they are an open cockpit wide beam design for the comfort and entertainment for more than five people. The 370 version is a wide beam at 10'6", not what would be considered a desirable racing specification. I have owned both Formula FasTechs and SSs and, believe me, there is no comparison between the two especially in performance. They are very different purpose built boats that only look somewhat similar.

As for the conditions that terrible night, judge not until you have been on the big lake on a moonless rainy night. After more than 35 years of boating on Winni I can tell you it can be absolutely frightening to say the least. In fact after the Diamond Island accident I spent nearly a thousand dollars on a marine GPS system. So Mr. Breakwater, I have been out there in those conditions, have you??

DC Pointer · 03-30-2011, 01:10 PM

I don't wish to get involved in this pissing match, but I would like to say I bought a 310SS from LL a few years back and have nothing but great things to say about Formula and LL. I think Formula is one of the finest manufacturers in the industry and LL is one of the finest marina's in the state. They store my boat, service my boat, answer all my dumb questions with class and ALWAYS treat me well. Everytime I see or talk to someone from LL I always walk away saying to myself 'these folks are great.' I am glad they can continue to service and store my boat as EVERYONE I have ever run into there is extremely professional and goes the extra mile. I trust them totally and I would buy another boat from them in a heartbeat.

codeman671 · 03-30-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley Boy

You, Mr. Breakwater, have the credibility problem. You clearly do not even have a basic understanding of the different models that Formula builds. Among those models are bow riders, cruisers, yachts and the SS lines. The "go fast" Formulas are known as FasTechs which are narrow beam boats with racing style seats, equipment and the like. FaTechs are built for optimum speed and performance and have competed well in off shore American Power Boat Association (APBA) sanctioned events.

The SS line are true "day boats" as they are an open cockpit wide beam design for the comfort and entertainment for more than five people. The 370 version is a wide beam at 10'6", not what would be considered a desirable racing specification. I have owned both Formula FasTechs and SSs and, believe me, there is no comparison between the two especially in performance. They are very different purpose built boats that only look somewhat similar.

As for the conditions that terrible night, judge not until you have been on the big lake on a moonless rainy night. After more than 35 years of boating on Winni I can tell you it can be absolutely frightening to say the least. In fact after the Diamond Island accident I spent nearly a thousand dollars on a marine GPS system. So Mr. Breakwater, I have been out there in those conditions, have you??

I have to agree somewhat with Bently. The 370SS is not a "go fast" boat, it is a day cruiser that runs in the 50's. My pontoon is good for 54, does that make my boat a go-fast?

We all know what caused the accident. Thats where my opinion differs. I was on the lake that night and made a run from Wolfeboro to Gilford. I didnt hit anything and was traveling faster than the 370SS was... The boat was electronically equipped to handle being out there. I think MP determined long ago that the boat was not traveling at excessive speeds (by saying that I mean really flying). Excessive is in the eye of the beholder. Traveling at 20-30mph in those conditions is not unreasonable, if you are paying attention, not drinking, and are using electronics for overall navigation.

Bentley Boy · 03-30-2011, 03:45 PM

Codeman671, thanks. All very good and well informed points.

I noted that you were out on the lake that night but were you out there at 2:30am when this accident occurred?? At that time the conditions were at their worst i.e. rain, heavy fog and no moon. I have been told that the cloud cover and heavy fog severely interfered with GPS reception that morning. A little known fact is that the operator of the 370SS was very familiar with that area of the lake as her family owned summer property on Sleepers Island since she was a small child. She had made the trip between Lakeport and Sleepers many times but apparently got disorientated that morning. The 370SS was a brand new boat that had not been in the water for 36 hours before it was demolished. It is my opinion that navigation equipment is a necessity at night and, believe it or not, sometimes during the day. That very expensive 370SS was regretfully not so equipped. Truly a day boat.

jrc · 03-30-2011, 08:07 PM

Let's not pretend here, the Formula brand is a performance brand. Very few of theirs are racing boats, but they are selling performance or at least the appearance of it . Their bow riders, dayboats, and cruisers all have bigger engines then similar models from Searay or other brands. There is nothing wrong with that as a business model. Very few Ford Mustangs actually race but a lot of them look like race cars.

I think they are overpriced and have suceeded in spite of this because of their racy styling and great financing. It should be interesting to watch their progress in an era of tight money and speed limits.

So if I decide to slurge on 41' Performance Cruiser, which side of the bay do I visit?

Finally short of a hurricane or tsunami, I ain't buying weather causing the Diamond Island crash. Simple rule, I you can't see, slow down.

codeman671 · 03-30-2011, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley Boy

Codeman671, thanks. All very good and well informed points.

I noted that you were out on the lake that night but were you out there at 2:30am when this accident occurred?? At that time the conditions were at their worst i.e. rain, heavy fog and no moon. I have been told that the cloud cover and heavy fog severely interfered with GPS reception that morning. A little known fact is that the operator of the 370SS was very familiar with that area of the lake as her family owned summer property on Sleepers Island since she was a small child. She had made the trip between Lakeport and Sleepers many times but apparently got disorientated that morning. The 370SS was a brand new boat that had not been in the water for 36 hours before it was demolished. It is my opinion that navigation equipment is a necessity at night and, believe it or not, sometimes during the day. That very expensive 370SS was regretfully not so equipped. Truly a day boat.

I was out in the 11pm range, it was nasty enough then. I seem to recall seeing a photo of the dash of the boat on the site in the past. Are you sure it did not have electronics? I would be highly surprised if there was no chartplotter on the boat.

You sound like you are tied to this somehow...

Bentley Boy · 03-31-2011, 01:09 AM

Codeman671; No, I repeat, no electronics were installed on that 370SS. I saw that boat before its launch.

jrc; You really need to check your facts. As in automobiles, you get the power you are willing to pay for no matter what the brand. It is not at all uncommon to find standard small block Chevy/Mercruiser engines in SS, Bowrider and some Cruiser Formulas. Power in these boats is determined by the size and weight of the boat, not merely speed. Despite what you may think, performance in high quality boats is also measured as a boat's handling and ride in heavy water conditions. For example, semi V bottom boats are much less expensive to design and build than true deep V bottom boats which results in much improved overall performance. Although Sea Rays, Four Winds and the like are good boats, never compare them to very high quality boats that perform like Cobalt, Tiara and Formula. To anyone who really knows boats they know these boat manufacturers are in a different league in all respects. Why do you think PBM wanted Formula quality??

Boat, RV, etc. factory financing has been gone for several years as the big banks are currently unwilling to offer special financing packages. Tried to borrow any large amounts of money lately??

As for your 41 foot cruiser, sorry Formula only builds a 40 footer with a base price of $621k. As long as it is a Formula, you should buy it from the dealer with the best price and service.

Finally, if you can't see then you should have purchased electronics on your 41 foot cruiser.

codeman671 · 03-31-2011, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley Boy

Codeman671; No, I repeat, no electronics were installed on that 370SS. I saw that boat before its launch.

Finally, if you can't see then you should have purchased electronics on your 41 foot cruiser.

Well, if no electronics were on the boat and if someone could not see they should not have been out in the first place...

So tell us, what is your true tie/agenda to this? Family? Marina employee? Something smells fishy here.

Bentley Boy · 03-31-2011, 10:24 AM

Codeman671; No agenda at all other that I know the parties involved and feel that there has been way too much speculation on the truth. For example, I have read repeatedly in this forum all kinds of statements made by people who really know nothing about the events of that night, the boat involved or the PBM dealership deal but still offer ill conceived opinion that sadly over time becomes facts in other people's minds. Is that what a forum like this is supposed to be?? A place for unfounded rumor to flourish into what becomes juicy Desperate House Wives like fantasy. I think not, and that is clearly unfair to those closest to this tragedy.

For those of us that have had the unfortunate experience of the print media writing about something that has been going on in our lives, you know they are rarely accurate or leave out important points. The local rag i.e. The Laconia Citizen has not reported this story accurately or fairly. Bea Lewis can't seem to get her facts straight and tends to offer her opinion or speculation rather than being a credible news reporter. Credible reporters do not make news - they report it factually. It is becoming easy to understand why the Citizen is losing readers to the Laconia Sun and it is not just cost.

codeman671 · 04-01-2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley Boy

Codeman671; No, I repeat, no electronics were installed on that 370SS. I saw that boat before its launch.

Looking back through some old posts about the accident I noticed a now removed link to the boat for sale on the Lakeport site. After that was a post by Dave R stating that the gps looked like a nice one, a Raymarine C-80. I seem to recall that listing as well showing one, do you have any proof that there were no electronics on the boat other than your statement that you saw it without, such as a picture or a link to a testimony stating so? The boat clearly did not have radar, we do not that to be fact.

ishoot308 · 04-01-2011, 10:13 AM

Just an fyi... Somewhere I remember Lt Dunleavy being quoted in one of the newspapers as saying there was no GPS on board the boat at the time of the accident... I do not remember which newspaper however.

Dan

Bentley Boy · 04-01-2011, 10:47 AM

Codeman671; I am really not sure what you are asking but please remember that the 370SS has been a quite popular boat and LLM could have had several in inventory at any given time. Some of these boats may have been ordered for stock or customer ordered boats. The SS line has become the biggest seller of all the Formula models. Black, as this 370SS was, has been a popular color on all Formula models. At well over $450k for a basic 370SS, factory installed Raymarine GPS costs at least $5,000. more which many customers are not interested in at that price. BTW, this 370SS was ordered for Ms. Blizzard's personal use. Hope that helps.

SigSauer · 03-31-2011, 06:39 AM

She....and we all know who "she" is, had no reason to be on the lake at 2:30am.

jrc · 03-31-2011, 09:58 AM

Bentley, since you seem to be a Formula salesman, I'm not going to argue with you. I did a lot of research in 2007 on mid size cruisers before buying mine. It was the best combination of value and styling for me.

My boat has marine GPS, so the risk of running into an island is reduced. If it's raining is so hard I can't see the lights of other boats, GPS is no help so I slow down. If I had radar, I could go a little faster, but then again how good does radar work in heavy rain. Operating a vehicle requires good sense, you need to know the limits of your vision and the limits of your tools in the existing conditions. If you have doubts in either you slow down.

Sunset View · 05-15-2012, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

There is more to the story of Silver Sands parting ways with Fountain. Lack of warranty support from Fountain being a major one.

I owned a few Fountains, enjoyed Chris Gagnon as he is a sharp young man, a real gentleman, unfortunately, that's where the good ends at Silver Sands. As for the boats themselves, I just wouldn't own a Fountain to save my life, new or used!.......They are an inferior product, have lousy support and even worse residual values! The service crew at SSands could never solve problems on our new boat and as such, I returned to Formula.....say what you want about Lakeport, but as long as Ron Sorgente is there, I will not go anywhere else. 95% of the lakes region marinas don't know a thing about how to keep a customer loyal. Ron Sorgente does and so too does Ernie Gillan at Gillan Marine !!!! Maybe some day I will be a PBM customer, but for now, I stay with those that treat me and my spends with respect and appreciation. There's a certain feeling of respect for the customer that comes with the Lakeport and Gillan Marine teams.

codeman671 · 05-16-2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunset View

I owned a few Fountains, enjoyed Chris Gagnon as he is a sharp young man, a real gentleman, unfortunately, that's where the good ends at Silver Sands. As for the boats themselves, I just wouldn't own a Fountain to save my life, new or used!.......They are an inferior product, have lousy support and even worse residual values! The service crew at SSands could never solve problems on our new boat and as such, I returned to Formula.....say what you want about Lakeport, but as long as Ron Sorgente is there, I will not go anywhere else. 95% of the lakes region marinas don't know a thing about how to keep a customer loyal. Ron Sorgente does and so too does Ernie Gillan at Gillan Marine !!!! Maybe some day I will be a PBM customer, but for now, I stay with those that treat me and my spends with respect and appreciation. There's a certain feeling of respect for the customer that comes with the Lakeport and Gillan Marine teams.

This thread is a year old. Let it die peacefully...

Water Camper · 05-17-2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

This thread is a year old. Let it die peacefully...

Enough said.

02-24-2011, 10:41 PM	#4
Seadoo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 67 Thanks: 6 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Contacted Formula today. They said that Lakeport Landing is still listed as a dealer and can actually still order a Formula for themselves or for a customer. Also they are still a 100% full wokring Formula Service Department. I'd check with both marinas before i buy. Think spring! Last edited by Seadoo; 02-24-2011 at 10:45 PM. Reason: Error

02-27-2011, 08:36 PM	#8
Seadoo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 67 Thanks: 6 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ahh yes it appears you are right. I to did go to Formula's website and punch in the zip. PBM comes up. I decided to give lakeport a call today to see what was up: They said two main things: 1) If customers would like to order a new Formula that can be done through their dealership, they still have a great connection with Formula and can order any boat wanted. I am under the impression that because LL can order boats still; their prices will most likely be lower than PBM.. 2) They have decided to remain a Formula Dealer but made a business choice to i guess not bring in new Formulas? one can assume but none can be sure why this was done. Quick search on Formula’s site indicates a lot of dealers were ‘dropped.’ Like the NY dealer the email is ‘@formulaboats.com’ I wonder if Formula now sells? Who knows I can’t afford one of these anyway! Think spring everyone! Last edited by Seadoo; 02-27-2011 at 08:38 PM. Reason: error

02-28-2011, 04:06 PM	#9
LadyoftheLake Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: MA and NH Posts: 18 Thanks: 31 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Paugus Bay Marina I was at the Boston Boat Show Feb 26 and I visited the Formula boat display. Paugus Bay Marina had a 31 and 35 foot Formula SS on display. Kevin and Cory were there speaking with the visitors. We have had our Boat serviced and stored with them for the past 7 years and I am extremely satisfied with their customer service. Reggie is one of the best mechanics on the Lake. I don't know the exact count, but I would say that they service and store at least 20 plus boats from our Club at the Lake. The fact that Formula approached PBM for the dealership, shows that they have confidence in them. I wish PBM the best with their new Formulas. I am sure all boat dealers are hoping for an improvement in the economy and lower gas prices. __________________ There is no better place to be on a beautiful day, then on a boat on Lake Winnipesaukee

03-01-2011, 11:59 AM	#10
Bentley Boy Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: N.H. Posts: 22 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	New Formula dealer I think this would be a good time to stop the speculation and attempt to set the record straight on this matter. I have known the owners of both marinas for more than thirty years. In fact one of the PBM owners worked for Lakeport Landing in the late seventies and early eighties. These are all good people who have worked hard at being successful in the very seasonal marina business. Some facts: 1. Lakeport Landing's relationship with Formula has been great and goes back 31 years. For several years Lakeport Landing was the largest Formula dealer in the world!! Not a small achievement. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement for years but, when the recession hit, boat dealers everywhere were caught with new unsold inventory and needed help from the manufacturers. Formula's excellent special financing packages became not available because of banks' reluctance to lend money. As the new inventory aged, Lakeport Landing and other Formula dealers called and met with Formula executives but no assistance was offered. Formula essentially gave up its entire dealer network that took years to build and decided to sell directly to the public as SeaDoo speculated.. The New York address in bigpatsfan's previous post is actually Formula itself. Now Formula had current models to sell without a middle man while the poor dealers were stuck with new prior years models. How can any dealer compete when the factory is selling current product directly to the public at a lower price? 2. The notion that the Diamond Island accident had anything to do with Formula giving its franchise to PBM is wrong. If it were so it would not have taken Formula more than 2 1/2 years to do so. While it was not the best publicity, the truth is that the boat involved was not a "go fast". It was a 370 Sun Sport which is known in the industry as a "day boat". The unexpected conditions that night were impossible without radar or GPS. Speed had nothing to do with it. 3. As good as PBM may be, they will never be able to handle the full Formula line. It takes special equipment to lift boats over 30 feet. These boats are heavy. PBM will probably focus its sales on the smaller entry level boats. 4. PBM has limited dockage and relies mainly on rack storage which is less expensive than dockage but far less convenient for the boat owner. 5. Floor Plan will be difficult for PBM to inventory new boats and then sell them in a short period of time. So, lets all of us wish both marinas the best. All three entities have made a business decision that hopefully will work out for all.

03-08-2011, 07:51 PM	#20
Bentley Boy Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: N.H. Posts: 22 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	New Formula dealer After months of discussion and face to face meetings, Formula and Lakeport Landing Marina have announced that their relationship will remain essentially intact and that Lakeport Landing will become a "Non Stocking" dealer. This is a standard industry term which simply means that Lakeport Landing will not be stocking new 2011/2012, etc. boats. Lakeport Landing will be able to order for customers boats from Formula and will have access to all other Formula products and services. This is obviously the result of a great relationship that has lasted for more than thirty years and had nothing to do with the very unfortunate Diamond Island accident. This is a great opportunity for the Paugus Bay Marina, Lakeport Landing and Formula itself to keep the various Formula models as one of the preeminent quality boat lines on Winnipesaukee. Please wish all concerned your best.

02-24-2011, 04:36 PM	#3
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	Sig,you seem to have the inside track. Can you tell us anything?

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02-26-2011, 05:31 PM	#6
meredith weekender Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Meredith / Manchester Posts: 373 Thanks: 87 Thanked 84 Times in 57 Posts	The Formula web site lists the NH dealer as PBM with their Meredith address.

02-27-2011, 02:13 PM	#7
bigpatsfan Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 86 Thanks: 21 Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts	What is interesting is if you put the Manchester NH zip code into the dealer locater feature on the Formula WEB site it shows a NY dealership… looks like Formula needs to spend some time updating their WEB site Formula Boats Northeast 351 S Main St Freeport, NY 11520 516 378-8700 ph. mikeraguso@gmail.com (really a gmail address)

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03-03-2011, 10:56 PM	#15
Cobalt 25 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cape Cod Posts: 217 Thanks: 227 Thanked 36 Times in 20 Posts	I purchased a new Formula, which remains our current boat, from Lakeport Landing in 2001, so I'm somewhat familiar with their operation. While at the Boston Boat Show on Sunday, I spoke with a representative from Formula. He was not directly involved with Lakeport or PBM. I asked him why Lakeport was no longer dealing Formulas. He very politely and professionally told me nothing, other than to say in broad generalities that it was a business decision. I later met and spoke with Cory from PBM and was very impressed with his friendly and helpful attitude. I, too, wish both dealerships the best of luck. Peter

03-04-2011, 02:42 PM	#16
bigpatsfan Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 86 Thanks: 21 Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts	What is surprising is the fact that Formula decided to go with PBM instead of Channel Marine who have a long history of selling a similar style of boat. I am guessing the departure of the Littlefields may have something to do with this but again, it is amazing that Formula decided to go with a fairly new dealer. I wish both dealerships good luck

03-04-2011, 07:11 PM	#17
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	I was at the show today and looked at Formula boats. Never sat in any Formula that I sank to the surface ( hard bottom ) of a seat in this brand. Maybe changes in manufacturing was a contributing factor?

03-05-2011, 11:28 AM	#18
Cobalt 25 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cape Cod Posts: 217 Thanks: 227 Thanked 36 Times in 20 Posts	Have you been enjoying a lot of donuts lately? Peter

03-05-2011, 06:41 PM	#19
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	No sorry,maybe the cushions aren't what they used to be.

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03-30-2011, 11:59 AM	#34
Bentley Boy Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: N.H. Posts: 22 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	New Formula dealer You, Mr. Breakwater, have the credibility problem. You clearly do not even have a basic understanding of the different models that Formula builds. Among those models are bow riders, cruisers, yachts and the SS lines. The "go fast" Formulas are known as FasTechs which are narrow beam boats with racing style seats, equipment and the like. FasTechs are built for optimum speed and performance and have competed well in off shore American Power Boat Association (APBA) sanctioned events. The SS line are true "day boats" as they are an open cockpit wide beam design for the comfort and entertainment for more than five people. The 370 version is a wide beam at 10'6", not what would be considered a desirable racing specification. I have owned both Formula FasTechs and SSs and, believe me, there is no comparison between the two especially in performance. They are very different purpose built boats that only look somewhat similar. As for the conditions that terrible night, judge not until you have been on the big lake on a moonless rainy night. After more than 35 years of boating on Winni I can tell you it can be absolutely frightening to say the least. In fact after the Diamond Island accident I spent nearly a thousand dollars on a marine GPS system. So Mr. Breakwater, I have been out there in those conditions, have you?? Last edited by Bentley Boy; 03-30-2011 at 04:14 PM.

03-30-2011, 01:10 PM	#35
DC Pointer Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Wolfeboro Posts: 40 Thanks: 18 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I don't wish to get involved in this pissing match, but I would like to say I bought a 310SS from LL a few years back and have nothing but great things to say about Formula and LL. I think Formula is one of the finest manufacturers in the industry and LL is one of the finest marina's in the state. They store my boat, service my boat, answer all my dumb questions with class and ALWAYS treat me well. Everytime I see or talk to someone from LL I always walk away saying to myself 'these folks are great.' I am glad they can continue to service and store my boat as EVERYONE I have ever run into there is extremely professional and goes the extra mile. I trust them totally and I would buy another boat from them in a heartbeat.

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03-30-2011, 03:45 PM	#37
Bentley Boy Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: N.H. Posts: 22 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	New Formula dealer Codeman671, thanks. All very good and well informed points. I noted that you were out on the lake that night but were you out there at 2:30am when this accident occurred?? At that time the conditions were at their worst i.e. rain, heavy fog and no moon. I have been told that the cloud cover and heavy fog severely interfered with GPS reception that morning. A little known fact is that the operator of the 370SS was very familiar with that area of the lake as her family owned summer property on Sleepers Island since she was a small child. She had made the trip between Lakeport and Sleepers many times but apparently got disorientated that morning. The 370SS was a brand new boat that had not been in the water for 36 hours before it was demolished. It is my opinion that navigation equipment is a necessity at night and, believe it or not, sometimes during the day. That very expensive 370SS was regretfully not so equipped. Truly a day boat. Last edited by Bentley Boy; 03-30-2011 at 06:35 PM.

03-30-2011, 08:07 PM	#38
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Let's not pretend here, the Formula brand is a performance brand. Very few of theirs are racing boats, but they are selling performance or at least the appearance of it . Their bow riders, dayboats, and cruisers all have bigger engines then similar models from Searay or other brands. There is nothing wrong with that as a business model. Very few Ford Mustangs actually race but a lot of them look like race cars. I think they are overpriced and have suceeded in spite of this because of their racy styling and great financing. It should be interesting to watch their progress in an era of tight money and speed limits. So if I decide to slurge on 41' Performance Cruiser, which side of the bay do I visit? Finally short of a hurricane or tsunami, I ain't buying weather causing the Diamond Island crash. Simple rule, I you can't see, slow down.

03-31-2011, 01:09 AM	#40
Bentley Boy Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: N.H. Posts: 22 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	New Formula dealer Codeman671; No, I repeat, no electronics were installed on that 370SS. I saw that boat before its launch. jrc; You really need to check your facts. As in automobiles, you get the power you are willing to pay for no matter what the brand. It is not at all uncommon to find standard small block Chevy/Mercruiser engines in SS, Bowrider and some Cruiser Formulas. Power in these boats is determined by the size and weight of the boat, not merely speed. Despite what you may think, performance in high quality boats is also measured as a boat's handling and ride in heavy water conditions. For example, semi V bottom boats are much less expensive to design and build than true deep V bottom boats which results in much improved overall performance. Although Sea Rays, Four Winds and the like are good boats, never compare them to very high quality boats that perform like Cobalt, Tiara and Formula. To anyone who really knows boats they know these boat manufacturers are in a different league in all respects. Why do you think PBM wanted Formula quality?? Boat, RV, etc. factory financing has been gone for several years as the big banks are currently unwilling to offer special financing packages. Tried to borrow any large amounts of money lately?? As for your 41 foot cruiser, sorry Formula only builds a 40 footer with a base price of $621k. As long as it is a Formula, you should buy it from the dealer with the best price and service. Finally, if you can't see then you should have purchased electronics on your 41 foot cruiser.

03-31-2011, 10:24 AM	#42
Bentley Boy Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: N.H. Posts: 22 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	New Formula dealer Codeman671; No agenda at all other that I know the parties involved and feel that there has been way too much speculation on the truth. For example, I have read repeatedly in this forum all kinds of statements made by people who really know nothing about the events of that night, the boat involved or the PBM dealership deal but still offer ill conceived opinion that sadly over time becomes facts in other people's minds. Is that what a forum like this is supposed to be?? A place for unfounded rumor to flourish into what becomes juicy Desperate House Wives like fantasy. I think not, and that is clearly unfair to those closest to this tragedy. For those of us that have had the unfortunate experience of the print media writing about something that has been going on in our lives, you know they are rarely accurate or leave out important points. The local rag i.e. The Laconia Citizen has not reported this story accurately or fairly. Bea Lewis can't seem to get her facts straight and tends to offer her opinion or speculation rather than being a credible news reporter. Credible reporters do not make news - they report it factually. It is becoming easy to understand why the Citizen is losing readers to the Laconia Sun and it is not just cost.

04-01-2011, 10:13 AM	#44
ishoot308 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island Posts: 6,249 Thanks: 2,391 Thanked 5,283 Times in 2,055 Posts	Just an fyi... Somewhere I remember Lt Dunleavy being quoted in one of the newspapers as saying there was no GPS on board the boat at the time of the accident... I do not remember which newspaper however. Dan

04-01-2011, 10:47 AM	#45
Bentley Boy Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: N.H. Posts: 22 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	New Formula dealer Codeman671; I am really not sure what you are asking but please remember that the 370SS has been a quite popular boat and LLM could have had several in inventory at any given time. Some of these boats may have been ordered for stock or customer ordered boats. The SS line has become the biggest seller of all the Formula models. Black, as this 370SS was, has been a popular color on all Formula models. At well over $450k for a basic 370SS, factory installed Raymarine GPS costs at least $5,000. more which many customers are not interested in at that price. BTW, this 370SS was ordered for Ms. Blizzard's personal use. Hope that helps.

03-31-2011, 06:39 AM	#46
SigSauer Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 18 Thanks: 1 Thanked 11 Times in 5 Posts	Nothing good happens after 11:00pm She....and we all know who "she" is, had no reason to be on the lake at 2:30am.

03-31-2011, 09:58 AM	#47
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Bentley, since you seem to be a Formula salesman, I'm not going to argue with you. I did a lot of research in 2007 on mid size cruisers before buying mine. It was the best combination of value and styling for me. My boat has marine GPS, so the risk of running into an island is reduced. If it's raining is so hard I can't see the lights of other boats, GPS is no help so I slow down. If I had radar, I could go a little faster, but then again how good does radar work in heavy rain. Operating a vehicle requires good sense, you need to know the limits of your vision and the limits of your tools in the existing conditions. If you have doubts in either you slow down.

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