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#1 | |
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![]() Can you show me where the winnfabs website stated that the “Speed Limit Law” would fix any of the following: 1. Violation of the 150 ft rule. 2. Cutting off other boaters. 3. Speeding through NWZ's at speeds above no wake speed. 4. BUI 5. Being a complete BONEHEAD! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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#2 | |
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#3 | |
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So that “large off-shore type boats capable of speeds well in excess of 70 mph, 250+hp personal watercraft only 11ft. long, and low-profile fishing boats with 250+hp engines” do not make it unsafe for people like you and I who only want to have fun and enjoy everything that the Lake has to offer. Some people aren’t following 1 thru 5…BUT….they are following the new “Speed Limit Law” and it will only get better. Thanks for the questions! ![]() |
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#4 | |
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#5 | |
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David Barrett the head of the Marine Patrol is opposed to the speed limit yet admits it is being followed. He doesn't say it works 100%. After all very few things work 100%. Below are some quotes from Mr. Barrett from a recent interview in the Concord Monitor. Over the past 10 years, Barrett said, there have been three boating deaths attributed to speed. One of those is the 2008 death of Stephanie Beaudoin of Meredith, who died when a boat piloted by her best friend, Erica Blizzard, crashed into Diamond Island on Lake Winnipesaukee in the dark, early morning hours. State authorities estimate Blizzard was going at least 33 mph. This year, Barrett said, the Marine Patrol issued eight tickets for speeding on the lake, resulting in court-issued fines in the vicinity of $100. "That's testimony to the fact that there aren't a lot of people that go that fast," Barrett said. |
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#6 | |
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#7 | |
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And for many years I personally went faster than 45 mph just about every day I was at the lake. And that is all summer. The current law was 6 years in coming and involved many public meetings around the lake area and many legislative debates. That does not meet my definition of "rammed through". |
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#8 | |
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I'm still waiting for you and other SL supporters to present objective data showing benefits of the speed limit. Here's a a little tidbit. There are hyrdologic studies that demonstrate slow speeds through shallower depths increase the amount of sediment that is kicked up from the bottom. |
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#9 | |
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That was a sham of a last minute move to delay enactment of a the speed limit. Barrett pulled that rabbit out of his hat at almost the last moment to delay the bill. It was never taken seriously by the Marine Patrol that did it as evidenced by the fact the didn't log very pertinent data. Where do you people get your information? It's almost all wrong. |
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#10 | |
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Just above you quoted Barrett in a favorable way? Were you for the MP before you were against it? It's the legislative process that was rammed through when a study is put in place and then squashed. WinnFabs voice, although small in actual numbers, we able to use perception to their favor. I bet WinnFabs doesn't even (or care) how many of the petition signers were boaters on the lake, do you? If there is really such an overwhelming support for the SL then why does it remain so devisive? |
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#11 | |
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What kind of moron goes full speed directly at a marked patrol boat? Give me a break, this "test" was laughable. Deliberately designed to return the data it did. Most of the boats were marked but the MP claimed that they also used a few unmarked boats. Unfortunately the kind of boat and whether it was marked or unmarked WAS NOT RECORDED! Useless data. Why do I have to favor or not favor Barrett? He is a bureaucrat, some of what he does is good and some of it is bull, just like with most bureaucrats. The speed limit is only is only divisive on forums like this. Any real chance of a repeal died last November when Lynch was re-elected. He signed it into law during his campaign. He can't sign a repeal now, it would be political suicide. |
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#12 | |
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Suppose that a study was conducted in a manner that you deemed adequate and yielded the same results, would that chage your opinion on the need for a speed limit? |
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#13 | |
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For me the number one justification for a speed limit was that children's camps were keeping their small boats in on certain days. There were also secondary justifications. The "speed study" data would mean little or nothing to me no matter how taken or what it contained. It just didn't matter. If many boats were speeding then we needed a speed limit. If small numbers were speeding then hardly anyone would be inconvenienced by a speed limit. Sorry, but it was catch 22 in favor of a speed limit. The study meant nothing no matter what it said. We don't set speed limits on our roads by studying how fast cars are going on them. We set them by road conditions and accident data. |
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#14 | |
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As far as speed limits based on childrens camps, I think the number of boats on a busy day is a far, far a greater factor than speed. And that's just the facts of life. There are tons of places for camps to have small boats unfestered by motor boats. Do you think a speed limit would change your mind when traveling in the Weirs area on a busy weekend with a kayak? It's no different then when I avoid traffic areas while on the road. So the bikers ruin the Laconia/Meredith area for me during bike weeks so should that mean they cancel the event for those who don't participate? Comparing roads to the water is apples and oranges. We set road speed limits on OBJECTIVE data such as traffic volume, accident occurance, population densities, lane widths, number of egress points, sight lines, elevation changes, pavement type, amount of development, and a whole plethera of other criteria. Ever notice in certain areas where the speed limit miraculously changes from 65-55 seemingly for no reason? Now you have your answer..... And if you insist on comparing the water to the road, then do like the NHDOT (and all other States) and complete engineering studies before placing an arbitrary speed limit on the lake. And be careful what you wish for as the data is not likely to be in your favor. |
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#15 |
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lawn psycho,
When BI cannot "spin" his way out of a dabate--especially when confronted with facts, he will invariably pull out the "I'm afraid for the campers routine."
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__________________ __________________ So what have we learned in the past two thousand years? "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of Obamunism should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest the Republic become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." . . .Evidently nothing. (Cicero, 55 BC augmented by me, 2010 AD) |
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#16 | ||
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http://www.cabobike.org/2010/01/30/a...ed-limits-set/ Quote:
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#17 |
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If you read the article closely you will see that the author is not describing how speed limits are set, but giving his opinion as to how they SHOULD be set.
More importantly he never disagrees with what I posted. |
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#18 |
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Actually he does disagree with you. He prefaces the article by saying he removes his opinion and relies on the data. That's what an engineer is supposed to do.
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#19 | |
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Try this, and many more. I know for sure that almost every roadway on the country used this method for many decades. But I'm just addressing roadway SL. On the water is quite a bit different, and arbitrary limits plucked out of a hat are not really meaningful. |
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#20 | |
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#21 |
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Hey guys,
Instead of picking apart every minor comment I have posted, and then scouring the Internet for hours to try and find an expert opinion that differs from mine, why don't we talk about SB-27. |
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#22 | |
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The editorial above uses this argument against SB-27[...The proposed change to the law would replace hard and fast numbers with the words "reasonable and prudent...] And I simply ask you to show me data that supports a "hard and fast" 45 MPH limit. I've been patiently waiting for an answer but as of yet I hear silence. The silence is deafening ![]() |
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#23 | |
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![]() We didn’t sign the bill that has imposed the speed limit. I think most of us have told you why we think that a speed limit is necessary (and you won’t accept that) and evidently Governor Lynch thinks there should be one also. So Mr. lawn psycho, why don’t you write the Governor and ask him to show you data that supports a "hard and fast" 45 MPH limit. When you get his response it would be nice if you shared that with all of us. Tell him that "Rusty" gave you an assignment, he knows who I am. ![]() One other thing lawn psycho: Because you “have just a wee bit of experience in data analysis”, what are the odds that Governor Lynch will supply you with the hard data that you are looking for? Last edited by Rusty; 02-07-2011 at 03:30 PM. |
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#24 |
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#25 | |
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![]() Let me clue you in on the legislative process, the Governor merely signed something that was passed to him. The Gov. did not initiate the bill. And if you want me to believe that you personally had the ear of the Governor to be the hedge point to get him to sign the bill, I have a needle to pop the air within your big head ![]() |
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#26 | |
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What you could do in your letter to the Governor is to tell him that you know that he doesn't have any hard data but that you were asked to inquire about it. I would like to see what his response will be. ![]() I'm going to let you have the last word on this subject because you know what I said about statisticians. ![]() |
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#27 | |
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#28 | |
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Being a Private Pilot, I volunteered some information based on my avaition knowledge. I was challenged by Skip to write a letter to the FAA to resolve the matter. WHAT..? Who am I to write a letter to resolve a LOCAL matter, as to whether a Float Plane can land on Pickeral Pond.? This challenge by Rusty... seems eerily similar to my experience with Skip. BTW: Shedwanabe. ...to his credit..did his own investigating and found that the Float Plane operations on Pickeral Pond were indeed legal. SO: Is Rusty ...another screen name for Skip. ..?? ![]() |
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#29 | |
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However if you look back at post 35 you will see a quote from the Marine Patrol Director. "Over the past 10 years, Barrett said, there have been three boating deaths attributed to speed." That one piece of DATA is all you should need. |
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#30 | |
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#31 | |
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I'll go with your logic however and apply it too you. So since more than three shorefront owners around the lake probably have a dock or beach violation, then all private docks and beaches should be banned. Less docks would also mean less boats to make way for the campers too! |
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#32 | |
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#33 |
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#34 | |
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There was a social meeting last summer about restarting the Winnipesaukee Water Ski races. Mainly because the teenagers around the lake are bored and getting into all kinds of mischief. During the racing years many teenagers were busy practicing for the races. Very little mischief going on. After talking with Dunleavy, it won't be practical with the speed limits. Everyone would have to fill out forms in advanced to practice. Causing a huge paper shuffle at MP headquarters. Bet the SL supporters didn't see that coming. They just don't give a damn!
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#35 | |
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Go read the powerpoint. It specifically mentioned those items as the reason for the speed limit as a way to "minimize the imacts" of items 1-5. So yes, the WinnFabs ilk were selling this as a catch-all solution. I'm sure when the 150 ft rule and boater education laws were passed, the same tired arugments were given. Personally, I think the 150 ft rule should go away as it leads to unrealistic expectations. |
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#36 | |
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Write it up like this if you would: 1. Violation of the 150 ft rule. Page ? 2. Cutting off other boaters. Page ? 3. Speeding through NWZ's at speeds above no wake speed. Page ? 4. BUI Page ? 5. Being a complete BONEHEAD! Page ? I can't tie any of these items to the presentation...but hey..sometimes it takes a long time for things to sink in. ![]() |
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#37 | |
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I also find is laughable that on page 3 they use an image that is not even from Winnipesaukee. That should be pointed out in the public hearing as that is an outright attempt to mislead if not dishonest. 1. Violation of the 150 ft rule. Page 15 2. Cutting off other boaters. Page ,13, 14, 16, 19 3. Speeding through NWZ's at speeds above no wake speed. Page 16 Quote from WinnFlabs: "High speed magnifies the consequences of any rules violations." <- Sure sounds to me that the SL supporters are claiming that all other rules are meaningless without a SL tacked on. Read this next quote from the WinnFlabs site and tell me how this doesn't sound like the SL is the answer for all that ills Lake W: "Some initiatives such as boater licensing and education have already been implemented however until speed is one of the points of education there is dramatically less value in these efforts." 4. BUI Page 16 5. Being a complete BONEHEAD! Page 13, 14, 16, 19 The SL supporters were willing to say and do anything to pass. This includes embellishment of facts. APS is a prime example of someone who has lost all objectively and would propose that anyone who drives 46 MPH be jailed. |
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#38 | |
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You are completely missing what items 1-5 are saying. That presentation does not say that having a speed limit will do anything to “STOP” boaters from violating the 150 ft. rule, cutting off other boaters, speeding through NWZ’s at speeds above no wake zone, BUI, or being a BONEHEAD! It just does not say that…period. All that the presentation is saying is that speeding makes things worse……it does not say it will fix any of items 1-5. If you want to read it that way then there isn’t anything that I can do to change your mind. You state that “APS is a prime example of someone who has lost all objectively” …..IMHO I think maybe you have done the same thing as an opponent of the SL Law. |
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#39 | |
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![]() ![]() We didn't hear that in the testimony supporting the SL law did we? ![]() Regarding my objectivity, I don't see many others willing to hear both sides and looking for data. I've stated many times I would support a SL if someone could show me objective data that the SL does anything of value. So, I would disagree with you.... Lack of evidence plus my own personal experiences on the lake is how I've based my decision. |
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#40 | |
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If you don't think that the GFB's are a problem then that's OK with me.....I hope that you have fun on the Lake even though there is a Speed Limit in place. ![]() |
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#41 | |
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BI has mentioned HP limits. Apparently what was good for him prior to owning lake front property is not good enough for others to enjoy. Look at the progression. 150 ft rule, rafting restrictions, mandatory education, now a SL. So what's next? Time to push back!! |
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#42 | |
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