SBONH stands behind change of age requirements for boating certificate

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Are 11 year olds causing accidents or violating the boating regulations at a higher rate than older people? If they are I am unaware of it. If they are not then why are 11 year olds having their privilege to operate power boats taken away?

Why is the example given that or a 2 year old operating a 25HP boat? Why not have the example given be an 11 year old.

What about an 11 year old operating a trolling motor under 1 HP. That will now be illegal.

Obviously everyone that can legally operate a power boat should be allowed to take a safe boater course. That has been an idiotic loophole is the law. But why take boating privileges away from 10 and 11 year olds? Apples and oranges!

Talk about nanny state, this sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

No to be argumentative for the sake of it BI. But the very same has been said many, many times about the original SL bill passed. Many, many accidents were caused by boats doing less than 30 mph, including the two most talked-about accidents on the lake. People are well aware of the circumstance involved in those cases, but they were not addressed properly.

The current law's loophole is a bit silly. How many adults that don't have boating certificates caused accidents in boats having 25 hp or less? Me thinks you're looking for silliness here, and not acknowledging how silly the current law is written. There are many, many examples you could have brought up, why throw that one out?

Just sayin.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Are 11 year olds causing accidents or violating the boating regulations at a higher rate than older people?...Talk about nanny state, this sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

Maybe you didn't see the NHMP message—that "this loophole needed closing."

(I didn't see it either, but apparently somebody did).

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Many, many accidents were caused by boats doing less than 30 mph, including the two most talked-about accidents on the lake...The current law's loophole is a bit silly.

So were the loopholes that let those two "walk" from the most-serious charges brought against them.

(Those two especially.)

But the NHMP still announced our safest season among many seasons, and it was largely thanks to the (SL) effort to keep "the usual suspects" away from Lake Winnipesaukee's peaceful boaters.

Somehow—and in any way—that excellent record needs changing???

Will the skillful manipulations of FAX-machines overturn Lake Winnipesaukee's next safest season?

[RANGER CANOE CO]

My 8yr old took the on-line test and scored a 95%, before she got the "keys" 3 yr ago.......... Its "all" about the Skipper, IMHO But, I think 2 yrs is kinda young, unless they can change there own Diaper . I think everybody "Scans" now FYI.

[Bear Islander]

The anti-speed-limit people have been complaining for years about their boating privileges being limited. So now they are supporting the effort to remove operator privileges from a HUGE portion of the public?

They have argued that there is insufficient data to support a speed limit. Is there ANY data to support taking away these operator privileges? If there is any negative data I would love to see it, and might re-evaluate my position.

It is already illegal to allow a 2 year old to operate a power boat solo. It's called child endangerment.

My son will be 12 next summer so this legislation will not effect him. But he has been operating our 15 HP boat since he was 8 and operating it alone since he was 10.

8 or 10 might be a reasonable limit but not 12! Or set a 5 HP limit from 8 to 12. Something like that may make sense but not this legislation.

When you live on an island boats are your ONLY form of travel. This legislation would be unfairly restrictive to island children.

Image below of soon may be illegal operation of battery powered boat.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The anti-speed-limit people have been complaining for years about their boating privileges being limited. So now they are supporting the effort to remove operator privileges from a HUGE portion of the public?

They have argued that there is insufficient data to support a speed limit. Is there ANY data to support taking away these operator privileges? If there is any negative data I would love to see it, and might re-evaluate my position.

It is already illegal to allow a 2 year old to operate a power boat solo. It's called child endangerment.

My son will be 12 next summer so this legislation will not effect him. But he has been operating our 15 HP boat since he was 8 and operating it alone since he was 10.


8 or 10 might be a reasonable limit but not 12! Or set a 5 HP limit from 8 to 12. Something like that may make sense but not this legislation.

When you live on an island boats are your ONLY form of travel. This legislation would be unfairly restrictive to island children.

Image below of soon may be illegal operation of battery powered boat.

Same approach WINFABS took - tarket everyone, just because of a few morons. (Said morons being in all types of boats, not just performance boats.) You are correct...the shotgun approach is no way to address problems.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The anti-speed-limit people have been complaining for years about their boating privileges being limited. So now they are supporting the effort to remove operator privileges from a HUGE portion of the public?

They have argued that there is insufficient data to support a speed limit. Is there ANY data to support taking away these operator privileges? If there is any negative data I would love to see it, and might re-evaluate my position.

It is already illegal to allow a 2 year old to operate a power boat solo. It's called child endangerment.

My son will be 12 next summer so this legislation will not effect him. But he has been operating our 15 HP boat since he was 8 and operating it alone since he was 10.

8 or 10 might be a reasonable limit but not 12! Or set a 5 HP limit from 8 to 12. Something like that may make sense but not this legislation.

When you live on an island boats are your ONLY form of travel. This legislation would be unfairly restrictive to island children.

Image below of soon may be illegal operation of battery powered boat.

So BI, now you want safety data to prove something?

Look, Skip gave you credit for being an adult. Now act like one, and call the MP or call Rep. Chris Christensen and tell them there's something else they should consider.

It was a silly loophole that hadn't been brought up before. Better yet, suggest it here or "over there", instead of whining.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

So BI, now you want safety data to prove something?

Look, Skip gave you credit for being an adult. Now act like one, and call the MP or call Rep. Chris Christensen and tell them there's something else they should consider.

It was a silly loophole that hadn't been brought up before. Better yet, suggest it here or "over there", instead of whining.

I have already contacted the Marine Patrol requesting data on under 12 year old operators. I have also received and sent several PMs, emails and phone calls on the subject. I guess I kind of stirred up a hornets nest.

There was plenty of data and testimony to support a speed limit. We can argue forever about whether or not it was sufficient. So far I am unaware of ANY data that supports setting an operator minimum at 12 years old. If the Marine Patrol has data that makes a case for this legislation, then that is a different story.

All opinions to the contrary, I like to keep an open mind.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I have already contacted the Marine Patrol requesting data on under 12 year old operators. I have also received and sent several PMs, emails and phone calls on the subject. I guess I kind of stirred up a hornets nest.

There was plenty of data and testimony to support a speed limit. We can argue forever about whether or not it was sufficient. So far I am unaware of ANY data that supports setting an operator minimum at 12 years old. If the Marine Patrol has data that makes a case for this legislation, then that is a different story.

All opinions to the contrary, I like to keep an open mind.

I hadn't thought of the age thing until you brought it up BI, I was just focused on the loophole which was pretty silly. I'll keep an open mind on the age and HP thing, I have no real opinion yet. I think it was simply overlooked.

I think the Marine Patrol should have listened to more people, and also, given their opinions more frequently. I do, however, understand why the MP doesn't want to get too public in their opinions, because everything's so political nowadays.

Good to hear from you again. Really, it is.

[Yankee]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

But the NHMP still announced our safest season among many seasons, and it was largely thanks to the (SL) effort to keep "the usual suspects" away from Lake Winnipesaukee's peaceful boaters.

Somehow—and in any way—that excellent record needs changing???

Yet another example from a member of the pro SL rat pack going off the deep end again, ranting about how safe the lake was this summer solely due to the SL, but once again showing NO PROOF of their claims. They ignore the fact that this country is in a historic recession, that tourism averywhere is at levels not seen in decades, and that the NHMP Boater Certificate program has gained traction every year since inception. They ignore events like the Donzi Poker run, NASWA's Peter Makris Poker Run, and the Lakeport Landing Poker Run.

Facts never were your strong point anyway, I guess why should you start now.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Yankee

Yet another example from a member of the pro SL rat pack going off the deep end again, ranting about how safe the lake was this summer solely due to the SL, but once again showing NO PROOF of their claims. They ignore the fact that this country is in a historic recession, that tourism averywhere is at levels not seen in decades, and that the NHMP Boater Certificate program has gained traction every year since inception. They ignore events like the Donzi Poker run, NASWA's Peter Makris Poker Run, and the Lakeport Landing Poker Run.

Facts never were your strong point anyway, I guess why should you start now.

1) Speaking of facts, would you kindly quote a source that shows how "The Great Recession" affected Winnipesaukee's 2010 microscopic collision statistics?

(I quoted Director Barrett of the NHMP, who should know "Winnipesaukee's Ultimate Safe Season" when he sees it.)

2) From the perspective of my front porch, I saw only slackening of NHMP presence. How did they manage to write 20 speeding tickets?

Moreover, my neighboring McMansions were rented completely through July and August and were even rented-out—in May and June—on weekends!

3) The Boater Certificate program was grievously flawed, but got "tweaked" recently at great expense, indicating just how superficial that program (and NJ's—and CT's) originally was.

4) Thank you, SBONH-NHRBA, for not killing anyone during the Poker Run.

How about a SBONH-NHRBA "Smoke on The Waters Memorial Poker Run" to memorialize the five killed in that Poker Run!

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

But the NHMP still announced our safest season among many seasons, and it was largely thanks to the (SL) effort to keep "the usual suspects" away from Lake Winnipesaukee's peaceful boaters.

APS, I need your help here, while I am sure some comments related to a safe season have been and will be made. I am curious as to where the NHMP gave all the credit to the SL... Further more I can't believe the NHMP gave the credit solely to the Speed limit. Please let us know where you are pulling this information from. Allow people to fully read what you have read so that they can make a decision based solely on the actually press release, and not on someone interpretation of the press release.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

APS, I need your help here, while I am sure some comments related to a safe season have been and will be made. I am curious as to where the NHMP gave all the credit to the SL... Further more I can't believe the NHMP gave the credit solely to the Speed limit. Please let us know where you are pulling this information from. Allow people to fully read what you have read so that they can make a decision based solely on the actually press release, and not on someone interpretation of the press release.

Allow me to tell you from where APS is "pulling this information". (also happens to be the symbol for a certain political party. What a coincidence!)

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

APS, I need your help here, while I am sure some comments related to a safe season have been and will be made. I am curious as to where the NHMP gave all the credit to the SL... Further more I can't believe the NHMP gave the credit solely to the Speed limit. Please let us know where you are pulling this information from. Allow people to fully read what you have read so that they can make a decision based solely on the actually press release, and not on someone interpretation of the press release.

ApS might have Sleep Deprivation....look at the time he usually posts his "interpretations".
Maybe he is having a dream about a certain subject and he thinks it is the real thing. I've done that before but I try not to go online and post it on forums.

I will say he is entertaining at times.

[jrc]

I have to agree with Bear Islander on this one, there is no real reason for this change, I've seen plenty of 10 year old pilot small outboards safely. We already have laws that cover the extreme cases and there is no evidence of need.

As to APS, maybe his posts are in the middle of the day where he posts. He had a name with a middle east flavor before, maybe he posts from there. 4:30AM in NH is 11:30AM in Cairo or Jerusalem.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

When you live on an island boats are your ONLY form of travel. This legislation would be unfairly restrictive to island children.

If SBONH-NHRBA persists in "standing behind" this new law, perhaps they will issue a press-release of an "Emergency Clause" for the new regulation. You know, "For Safety".

Originally Posted by jrc

As to APS, maybe his posts are in the middle of the day where he posts. He had a name with a middle east flavor before, maybe he posts from there. 4:30AM in NH is 11:30AM in Cairo or Jerusalem.

1) That name, at that time, was emphatically SW Asian: It has now spread to 40+ locations—in Virginia. "Opening awareness" was the purpose in selecting that name.

2) With the present user-name, I'd hoped that the Acres-per-Second expression could introduce the complex equation that fast boats "use up" more of Lake Winnipesaukee's surface for themselves than peaceful boaters.

(Especially when side by side by side by side—when "not racing". ).

3) However, after very careful analysis, Pineneedles has uncovered that Yosemite Sam and ApS are ("is") the same person:

Originally Posted by Pineedles
Is Yosemite Sam and Acres Per Second the same person? I find it strange that Y.S. has thanked APS several times and it doesn't fit his profile.

So I must set my alarm for the middle of the morning to unhinge that discovery upon every occasion I post as Yosemite Sam.

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

APS, I need your help here, while I am sure some comments related to a safe season have been and will be made. I am curious as to where the NHMP gave all the credit to the SL... Further more I can't believe the NHMP gave the credit solely to the Speed limit. Please let us know where you are pulling this information from. Allow people to fully read what you have read so that they can make a decision based solely on the actually press release, and not on someone interpretation of the press release.

Bear Islander and I frequently get this same "putting words in my mouth" treatment.

The Director did not express a SL opinion in his 2010 statement—which addressed "Winnipesaukee's Safest Season in Many Years". (My quote).

However, in reluctant agreement, VitaBene stated of the 2009 season, "the lake was saner". The price of gasoline may be the reason the 2008 season appeared unusually quiet, but much less-so, the two seasons of the official speed limits—2009/2010.

Will SBONH-NHRBA—perhaps—credit the NHMP's issuance of 20+ speeding tickets?

[AllAbourdon]

So what do I tell my 10 year old nephew when he wants to take out the rowboat with the 3hp Johnson OB?

And mind you, this particular boat is on Highland Lake in Andover, NH which is about 210 acres and has 2 markers on the whole lake.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

However, in reluctant agreement, VitaBene stated of the 2009 season, "the lake was saner". The price of gasoline may be the reason the 2008 season appeared unusually quiet, but much less-so, the two seasons of the official speed limits—2009/2010.

In typical APS fashion and using your famous Parsi you jump to conclusions. I would not call my statement "reluctant". A year and a few months later, I have to say I still agree with myself! Here is my post from 8/2009 in its entirety:

"Elchase, there is no question that the lake is saner this year. Unfortunately, a great many, myself included, believe that the real reason is the poor economy. We have all seen many boats that have never even been uncovered for the season- the owners just decided to leave them winterized. I think when the economy improves, we will see a return of most of the craziness.

I do disagree with your point about last summer- gas on the lake was pushing or exceeded $5/gallon, virtually everyone became more thrifty and boated less- I believe there was even a poll regarding it.

Many of us who are percieved as anti-speed limit don't even own or want to own boats that can break it (I almost got lapped by a pontoon boat a few weeks ago!). Most of us own and use canoes and sailboats (Lazer in our case). When not sailing, my 14 year old son and his 11 year old sister can often be found in his 12 foot skiff with an 8 horse Merc patrolling the Greens Basin end of the lake. I have a vested interest in keeping the lake as safe as possible.

The real us versus them needs to become the safe boater versus the bonehead boater, not slow versus fast. The answer is to rid the lake of bad boaters. There is no way that many boaters on the lake studied for and passed their boating certificate course. Even though my son is not old enough to take his safety course, I had him study and pass the practice test prior to allowing him to boat alone.

I was sincere in my comment about sharing the lake- I want to do so with good boaters, slow and fast. I want to eradicate bad boaters, slow and fast.

I apologize if I misread your original post and hope you enjoy the fabulous weather we are supposed to have today."

[MAXUM]

To all the nay sayers.... REALLY!?! You can't be serious....

I'm curious as to why there is such an outcry over this. The whole point of the boater education course is to educate people of ALL ages. I fail to understand why being educated is a bad thing? I'm trying to distill what possible harmful affects the boater education class may have and at the moment I see no down side at all. Matter of fact I see a whole lot of benefit from this as most kids probably don't fully comprehend the responsibilty of operating a boat no matter the size or HP. They may not also know the basic rules of the road or understand what manditory equipment they should have on board when out on the water.

No I see this as a few people getting thier panties in a bunch all because SBONH happens to endorse the idea and has nothing to do with the public benefit that could result.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

To all the nay sayers.... REALLY!?! You can't be serious....

I'm curious as to why there is such an outcry over this. The whole point of the boater education course is to educate people of ALL ages. I fail to understand why being educated is a bad thing? I'm trying to distill what possible harmful affects the boater education class may have and at the moment I see no down side at all. Matter of fact I see a whole lot of benefit from this as most kids probably don't fully comprehend the responsibilty of operating a boat no matter the size or HP. They may not also know the basic rules of the road or understand what manditory equipment they should have on board when out on the water.

No I see this as a few people getting thier panties in a bunch all because SBONH happens to endorse the idea and has nothing to do with the public benefit that could result.

I don't think you understanding what is going on. Nobody is arguing against the boater education part of this bill. I think that everybody should be able to take the course and receive a certificate.

This legislation would also take the privilege of operating a boat away from everyone under the age of 12.

And this not only applies to Winni but all over New Hampshire.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

This legislation would also take the privilege of operating a boat away from everyone under the age of 12.

And this not only applies to Winni but all over New Hampshire.

Without a certified adult onboard, and only for motorized vessels. Look at the overall maturity level of say the average 12< year old today. Better yet let me put it to you this way, as a parent myself there is no way I would ever let my kid go out on the lake unsupervised or without an expereinced boater period. Why you may ask, because I feel it's my responsibility to ensure not only my kid's well being, but the general public as well no matter how much I think my kid may know what they are doing. What scares me is the parent that thinks this is OK to do, bringing into question thier own lack of prudent judgement which inherently will be reflected in thier children's lackthereof. Is a law necessary to "fix" this, well that I can't answer. If it is in fact a problem that needs to be addressed legislativly fine, but only as a last resort. I'm simply stating that I don't find this idea offensive at face value. What I do find offensive is that people are to stupid to police themselves so laws like this end up being proposed and sometimes adopted or being opposed to an idea not on the merits, but who's idea it is.

[AllAbourdon]

It is important to note that as BI mentioned, this is all over NH, not just on Winnipesaukee.

There are different safety risks depending on the body of water. That should be taken into consideration when a law like this goes into effect.

[jrc]

Sorry APS, someone mentioned that you posted at odd hours, I post at odd hours when I travel, I remembered your affection for middle east training centers, so I put a guess together. I guess I was wrong?

In short, more training is always good, all boaters should be trained at somepoint. Restricting lake access to a class of people just because some of them are not mature enough to use it safety is a bad idea. Obviously parent need to be resposible for the children and be responsible if they make a mistake.

[VtSteve]

It seems to be pretty standard everywhere, including those wonderful states with speed limits.

Massachusetts:
Who May Operate a Motorboat: The restrictions below apply to boats propelled by any type of motor, whether or not the motor is the principal source of propulsion.

Persons under 12 years of age may operate a motorboat on Massachusetts waters only if accompanied on board and directly supervised by a competent person 18 years of age or older.
Persons 12 through 15 years of age may operate a motorboat on Massachusetts waters only if they:
Have passed an approved boating education course or …
Are accompanied on board and directly supervised by a competent person 18 years of age or older.
Persons 16 years of age or older may operate a motorboat on Massachusetts waters without age restrictions.


Vermont

Age Restrictions:

Persons less than 16 years of age shall not operate a Personal Watercraft.

Persons less than 12 years of age are restricted to motorboats of 6 hp or less.

Anyone born after January 1, 1974 must successfully complete an approved boating safety course prior to operating any motorized vessel. This online Basic Boating Safety Course meets this requirement.



I personally prefer the 6 HP limit. My first little boat had a 5 hp outboard. It was still very powerful and fast for a boat

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Vermont

Age Restrictions:
Persons less than 12 years of age are restricted to motorboats of 6 hp or less.

This I like! I think the state should compromise on this point and allow an under 6hp rule to exist.

[Bear Islander]

Hazelnut and VtSteve - At last we agree!

6 HP is ok by me.

[RANGER CANOE CO]

Plus..... 1

[VtSteve]

First, since I haven't looked at outboards in many years, I think it's prudent to see what small outboards are sold now. I'd hate to pass a law that had a meaningless HP rating. Let's say under 10 hp for now.

The outboard guys can look it up.

Sounds like a deal

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Hazelnut and VtSteve - At last we agree! 6 HP is ok by me.

With the right loading, 6-HP can send a boat to 26-MPH.

(But watch for a new SBONH Press Release anyway).