How has the lake changed????

[MAXUM]

Not to far off VTSteve, there is a fine line between fact and fiction.

There is little argument that the successful passage of the SL and various NWZ's are a result of fear and to a great degree spin. I make no bones about it, I favored the SL but not for the reason many here site. I had no doubts that it would NOT make the lake any safer and to date I see no evidence that is has. What I do think it does is provide a valuable tool for the MP to use when necessary when dealing with a reckless operator. The current laws, such as for example "reckless operation" is far to vague and therefore a judgment call by the MP who witnessed said behavior. If challenged in court it can be tough to prove. A speed limit violation can be proven and therefore provides a cut and dry means to have a violation stick.

That said, I don't believe it was necessary to sanction the entire lake to a limit, rather there are areas where a speed limit is not necessary such as the broads while other areas a limit could have been put into place. This would have created IMHO far less division and would have provided a solution were those that want to go fast can and keep things under relative control elsewhere. There is no reason why this could not have been done, but such ideas were lost to those that were vehemently on one side of the issue or another.

I'd be curious to know who thinks this is unreasonable and if so why?

Finally for the purposes of disclosure, I am now a proud VIP member of SBONH and have a whole lot of respect for this organization, it's members and their efforts to promote safety through education.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Not to far off VTSteve, there is a fine line between fact and fiction.

There is little argument that the successful passage of the SL and various NWZ's are a result of fear and to a great degree spin. I make no bones about it, I favored the SL but not for the reason many here site. I had no doubts that it would NOT make the lake any safer and to date I see no evidence that is has. What I do think it does is provide a valuable tool for the MP to use when necessary when dealing with a reckless operator. The current laws, such as for example "reckless operation" is far to vague and therefore a judgment call by the MP who witnessed said behavior. If challenged in court it can be tough to prove. A speed limit violation can be proven and therefore provides a cut and dry means to have a violation stick.

That said, I don't believe it was necessary to sanction the entire lake to a limit, rather there are areas where a speed limit is not necessary such as the broads while other areas a limit could have been put into place. This would have created IMHO far less division and would have provided a solution were those that want to go fast can and keep things under relative control elsewhere. There is no reason why this could not have been done, but such ideas were lost to those that were vehemently on one side of the issue or another.

I'd be curious to know who thinks this is unreasonable and if so why?

Finally for the purposes of disclosure, I am now a proud VIP member of SBONH and have a whole lot of respect for this organization, it's members and their efforts to promote safety through education.

Maxum that was a refreshing post! WOW. I am an opponent to the SL law. However, you make great points without sensationalism. You have a logical viewpoint that makes good sense. I still think the Coast Guard Rule (6) is it? Could work for the lake, (Reasonable and Prudent). Either way I appreciate your perspective on the matter. In the end I thought to myself that I could live with exactly what you suggested. Add to that we keep a 30MPH night time SL and I am on board. Unfortunately when this "keep the broads open" was suggested the people who were ardent supporters, namely the woman who needs to go shopping, were seen for their real motives. They were completely against compromise and it was evident to many that their agenda was not safety. It was and always will be an attempt to rid the lake of what they consider undesirable boats. Again with the NIMBY attitude.

[BroadHopper]

Now we are back on the same subject that gets Don teed. Let's get back on the subject if the lake is better.

A few things off topic. I am in complete agreement with BI about fear around the summer camps. Summer camps should have NWZ around the front of their properties. Even have a buoy or two situated out front to steer the boats away. That's a heck of a lot more logical than a lake wide SL.

I was a YMCA camp director in my days. Speed limits was not a problem. It is the incosiderate boaters that I feared the most. Steering them away form the camps lakefront is the best solution.

As for Winfabs, I was one of the founding members. The original intent of Winfabs was to save property value as I stated in another thread. Lake George property values rised after the speed limits was enacted. Majority of the founders are not native of the area so they have no clue what the lake was like. They started the fear spin to convinced the common folks to vote for the new law.

As for Rep. Pilliod, his famous 'Searays belong in the seas' dialogue is what really set off this high performance debate.

Let's not argue about all this here. Do something productive and notify your representatives that they have been misleaded and that we really need no boating zones around the summer camps, Rule #6, and a distracted boating law. Tell them they need to do this if they plan on staying another term!

Another thing. I strongly believe the NWZ at the Barber's Pole is proposed because of the summer camp next to it. Let's put a couple of bouys out there. That will save the headache of erosion on the shores when boat come off/on plane.

[VtSteve]

Most of the outspoken proponents of one law or another on the lake flat out lied, both about their intentions, and what was actually happening on the lake. There were many SL supporters that had some good ideas, presented them honestly, and were generally good people to deal with. It's unfortunate that so many people couldn't see past angry and contentious posts and see the outright lies that caused much of the angst.

Some had the vision to look way ahead, and saw some kind of SL as a way to protect Winni from becoming a Havasu or LOTO or other such crazy spots. Those people made me think hard and long, and did sway my opinion over time. I thought maybe a 65 SL daytime might satisfy everyone more or less.

But I might add, as BI stated many times, the SL opponents were not willing the first go around to compromise on anything. But it's hard to compromise, or even discuss issues, when one side has no facts, credibility, hides their true intentions, and generally pulls the wool over an unsuspecting public. Whatever the outcome on any issue, I'd prefer the process to be up front, and have people with honest character and integrity doing the advocation, for both sides. It's really sad that many still don't get this, maybe one day they will.

Now we have the BP NWZ issue. Fully supported behind the scenes by many of the same people. It's easy to spot them. They come out of nowhere with hysterical claims, broad-based stories of fear and woe, and leave people in the area scratching their heads as to when all of this mayhem is occurring. Some of the letters written in support of this NWZ are so far fetched and amazing, there must have been a common memo circulating that listed bullet lists for suggestions.

But I don't know who's more harmful to the lake. Those that produce the lies to gain support, or those that eat this BS up, then send nasty messages blaming us for pointing the lies out. The sheer idiocy of one supporter's comments. The MP saw repeated violations of the 150' safe passage rule, so lets have another new rule in place.


Regardless of position on any issue, I'm delighted to see many honest people come out here and state their opinions and stories. It's very refreshing, and would make for good discussion groups with the MP as well.

[VtSteve]

Sorry BH.

To stay on topic.....

BI stated many times that it was the camps he was concerned about, amongst other things. So back on topic, has it changed anything there?

[LIforrelaxin]

Well BI brought up summer camps, and VtSteve has asked the question has there been any improvement in the camps water activities since the enactment of the Speed limits...

Well here is what I have to say, I have several camps around me... that I pass on my regular boating trips... I personally have not seen a decline in their water activities in the last 20 years. Certainly you don't see the younger kids in the canoes, kayaks and small sail boats on the weekends, but you do see the older kids. But this is what I would expect. And during the week, when I have had the chance they have kids of all ages out on the water, with counselors chasing them down...

Now somethings to not given the economy since 2000 I have noticed that all the camps have had dwindling attendance.... and it got even worse during the last 3 years. Now as attendance at the camps has gone down so to has the number of boats from said camps that you see on the water...

Now if that isn't bad enough we have Insurance to think about here two... in this day and age with sue happy lawyers and parents, camps are fighting for survival and trying to keep there insurance cost down... I wouldn't be surprised to find out that some of the camps, have less of a water presence on the weekends because of insurance reasons, and their policy is dictating that they keep the boats on sure for Sat. and Sunday.

Now when you add all these twist and turns into the pot there is another different picture that starts to form. A picture that is not one of speed and its effects. But rather one first of economic affordability and second of safety... safety is not dictated by speed.... safety is dictated by common sense, education, and adherence to the rules....

Additional rules and regulations are not going to revive the summer camp feel and the sight of kids in canoes, and sail fish out on the lake... however responsible boating through education and adherence to the rules will. The focus needs not to be on how can we further legislate the lake to control the behavior, the rules are there... the focus needs to get back to where it was 10-15 years ago, and be about how do we educate people, and get the money to the MP to enforce the adherence to the rules that are already in place.