How has the lake changed????

DEJ · 08-25-2010, 11:48 AM

I agree brk-int. With all due respect OCD this is not a good idea, it will only lead to the same old crap. Let the data and statistics speak for themselves, opinions about this have not changed on either side. Please consider deleting your original post.

DoTheMath · 08-25-2010, 12:01 PM

I see no issue with his post, as it says in the top of this section of the Winni forum:

"Warning! Avoid this area if you don't like debates and arguments!"

So, with that - respectfully, let the thread continue... (thanks Don)

DEJ · 08-25-2010, 12:06 PM

And this will accomplish what? We will get the same crowd that will say the lake feels safer this year, and the other crowd that will say nothing has changed. There that should cover it, debate over.

classic22 · 08-25-2010, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEJ

And this will accomplish what? We will get the same crowd that will say the lake feels safer this year, and the other crowd that will say nothing has changed. There that should cover it, debate over.

DEJ- OCD has always been consistent in his postings and thoughts about the speed limit that there should be more time to study the issue as the original legislation regarding speed limits intended. The fact that it was hastily put forward last summer by the pro speed limit crowd as all problems solved by the speed limit, nothing to look at here, please move along mentality to get the speed limit passed permanently has been a sticking point for many.
So as Ronald Reagan once said: Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago? By the way the answer was rhetorical, as every one already knew the answer! I believe OCD by his posting is asking, are you better off with a speed limit than you were 2 years ago before the speed limit? I think in this case we all know the answer as well!

VitaBene · 08-25-2010, 01:56 PM

I am going to move beyond the SL dialogue and say that people on the lake have become less friendly and less courteous. I am not saying that every passing boater should wave to one another but when someone does something courteous, it would be nice to have that act acknowledged.

MAXUM · 08-25-2010, 03:25 PM

Since the question was asked, I'll submit a simple answer.

I don't believe anyone's mind has changed in regards to the SL. Those that decided for or against seem to be even less likely to consider any other point of view. Kinda like any political philosophy, the liberals hate the conservatives and the conservatives hate the liberals. It will never change.

Is there a noticeable difference? IMHO this is a loaded question and no offense throwing a little red meat to the wolves. Perception does NOT equal reality or fact. No offense either to the long string of so called experts and "know it alls".... if you cannot site specific reports or verifiable data sources then what you say cannot be validated and therefore is simply self proclaimed 'fact', or more accurately described as 'opinion'.

To fully understand if the SL has made an impact is to at the end of each year compare accident, summons issued etc... data before and after to get an idea. Same can be said for the boater's safety course, has it made a difference? Let the numbers answer that question.

Now if anyone can get their hands on this kind of data from the NHMP or if they would be so kind as to post it here, well then we have something to discuss. Otherwise it's just another long endless debate over who's perception is more accurate. The answer to that is very simple.... MINE! (I forgot to say I was just kidding)

Just my 02 cents before the bullets start a flying!

VtSteve · 08-25-2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEJ

I agree brk-int. With all due respect OCD this is not a good idea, it will only lead to the same old crap. Let the data and statistics speak for themselves, opinions about this have not changed on either side. Please consider deleting your original post.

Maybe, maybe not.

But as Don posted on the thread title.

"This separated forum is provided for the discussion and debate about controversial issues that effect the Lakes Region but are discouraged from the other more friendly areas. Debates about speed limits, no-wake zones, noise and general complaints and griping belong here. Threads in other forums that turn into debates, arguments or bickering will be moved here. Warning! Avoid this area if you don't like debates and arguments!"

Had to look didn't you?

I hope it stays civil, and hopefully interesting.

brk-lnt · 08-25-2010, 08:30 PM

My comment was not in regards to whether or not this discussion topic was allowed, but more to the point that every single one of these threads in the past have simply degraded to futility.

There is not enough data to draw a logical conclusion from, and furthermore you are forever trying to argue to disprove a negative. You say there were many accidents this year, and it's easy for someone to say "yeah, and without the speed limit we SURELY would have had more". There is NO way you can counter that kind of statement.

I'd love to see a discussion about something based in facts and reality, not just another rehashed opinion thread.

VtSteve · 08-25-2010, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

My comment was not in regards to whether or not this discussion topic was allowed, but more to the point that every single one of these threads in the past have simply degraded to futility.

There is not enough data to draw a logical conclusion from, and furthermore you are forever trying to argue to disprove a negative. You say there were many accidents this year, and it's easy for someone to say "yeah, and without the speed limit we SURELY would have had more". There is NO way you can counter that kind of statement.

I'd love to see a discussion about something based in facts and reality, not just another rehashed opinion thread.

Then rephrase it. Yes, there were far more accidents this year than last, and I believe the year before that as well.

Here's a great question, which requires nothing more than facts, that are readily available.

Have any of the accidents this year, or last, involved speeds that would indicate to you that a speed limit was needed on the lake?

The data is available, and you can get it for a decade or more.

Another question. Have any of the accidents this year indicated that a speed limit was needed on the lake? How about last year, or the year before. The facts are available, so I guess no speculation is really required.

No rehash required. Step right up to the plate and hit the pitch.

08-25-2010, 01:56 PM	#5
VitaBene Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 3,587 Thanks: 1,625 Thanked 1,640 Times in 843 Posts	Less friendly I am going to move beyond the SL dialogue and say that people on the lake have become less friendly and less courteous. I am not saying that every passing boater should wave to one another but when someone does something courteous, it would be nice to have that act acknowledged.

08-25-2010, 08:30 PM	#8
brk-lnt Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: South Down Shores Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 544 Thanked 570 Times in 335 Posts	My comment was not in regards to whether or not this discussion topic was allowed, but more to the point that every single one of these threads in the past have simply degraded to futility. There is not enough data to draw a logical conclusion from, and furthermore you are forever trying to argue to disprove a negative. You say there were many accidents this year, and it's easy for someone to say "yeah, and without the speed limit we SURELY would have had more". There is NO way you can counter that kind of statement. I'd love to see a discussion about something based in facts and reality, not just another rehashed opinion thread. __________________ [insert witty phrase here]

08-25-2010, 11:48 AM	#1
DEJ Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 553 Thanks: 526 Thanked 314 Times in 155 Posts	I agree brk-int. With all due respect OCD this is not a good idea, it will only lead to the same old crap. Let the data and statistics speak for themselves, opinions about this have not changed on either side. Please consider deleting your original post.

08-25-2010, 12:01 PM	#2
DoTheMath Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: MA / Moultonborough Posts: 146 Thanks: 46 Thanked 43 Times in 18 Posts	I see no issue with his post, as it says in the top of this section of the Winni forum: "Warning! Avoid this area if you don't like debates and arguments!" So, with that - respectfully, let the thread continue... (thanks Don)

08-25-2010, 12:06 PM	#3
DEJ Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 553 Thanks: 526 Thanked 314 Times in 155 Posts	And this will accomplish what? We will get the same crowd that will say the lake feels safer this year, and the other crowd that will say nothing has changed. There that should cover it, debate over.

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to VitaBene For This Useful Post:
BroadHopper (08-26-2010), LIforrelaxin (08-26-2010), XCR-700 (08-27-2010)

08-25-2010, 03:25 PM	#6
MAXUM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kuna ID Posts: 2,755 Thanks: 246 Thanked 1,942 Times in 802 Posts	Since the question was asked, I'll submit a simple answer. I don't believe anyone's mind has changed in regards to the SL. Those that decided for or against seem to be even less likely to consider any other point of view. Kinda like any political philosophy, the liberals hate the conservatives and the conservatives hate the liberals. It will never change. Is there a noticeable difference? IMHO this is a loaded question and no offense throwing a little red meat to the wolves. Perception does NOT equal reality or fact. No offense either to the long string of so called experts and "know it alls".... if you cannot site specific reports or verifiable data sources then what you say cannot be validated and therefore is simply self proclaimed 'fact', or more accurately described as 'opinion'. To fully understand if the SL has made an impact is to at the end of each year compare accident, summons issued etc... data before and after to get an idea. Same can be said for the boater's safety course, has it made a difference? Let the numbers answer that question. Now if anyone can get their hands on this kind of data from the NHMP or if they would be so kind as to post it here, well then we have something to discuss. Otherwise it's just another long endless debate over who's perception is more accurate. The answer to that is very simple.... MINE! (I forgot to say I was just kidding) Just my 02 cents before the bullets start a flying!