Fully Moderated Forums comes to Winnipesaukee.com

[Kracken]

The speed limit forums contain:

172 threads
10,873 posts
500,000 + views.

Those are some extremely impressive numbers. It is safe to say there was some interest in these forums. Some might say the topic was beaten to death, hard to argue that with the facts in front of you. I have spent quite some time reading these threads. There is a little bit of everything in there. Some discussions are extremely entertaining, others are witty, many are thought provoking and some are simply childish.

There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Kracken

The speed limit forums contain:


There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress

Very. And as you stated, if it's so easy to spot the instigators, why is it so hard to stop them? Answer? It isn't.

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Very. And as you stated, if it's so easy to spot the instigators, why is it so hard to stop them? Answer? It isn't.

Very true.

I am also reminded how difficult it is NOT to take the bait.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Kracken

Very true.

I am also reminded how difficult it is NOT to take the bait.

Yup, good point and clearly its something I have not yet mastered,,, LOL

But I am working on it,,, eventhough you might not be able to tell from this thread,,,

[Winnipesaukee]

It wouldn't be so much work if you did not insist on policing everything that your users said. Let them say what they want to say. If it is not politically correct, and it is censored, then that shows that Webmaster is prejudiced--for whatever reason--toward those with aggressive opinions--in other words, people that are not like himself.

I realize that this is the InterWeb. There will be people who anonymously insult and criticize me. Fortunately, my skin is thicker than wax paper.

The policy should be something like:

"The purpose of this message board is to provide a forum for the free exchange of ideas. Views may not necessarily represent that of the owner ("Webmaster")." That way he doesn't look bad.

Or, we can take the money approach. If I posted a thread bashing Bizer in the boating forum (look at the top of this page), would he let it stick? Even if true, I'm sure nobody would here my view.

What if Webmaster accidently hopped on the summer bandwagon and sunk his boat? I think it would be too easy or him to pre-censor anything we have to say about his situation.

...

There is a reason our American laws give us so much freedom of speech. I am not trying to legally apply the 1A here, just the principle of it. And that is for hundreds of years, and still now in every country in the world except this one, millions are silenced of their beliefs and opinions by only a handful of people.

Webmaster is trying to be in that handful.

Sure, legally he can do it. He "owns" this forum. And by signing up, we agree to blindly agree to whatever he decides to do with it.

But in this user's opinion, he should stick to mirroring the levels of freedom guaranteed by those much more brilliant than himself (people like our Founding Fathers and SCOTUS justices). Maybe if somebody is really causing a problem, he can ban that user.

XCR, thanks for being a fellow non-sheep. We're not bad guys, no matter what the Bad Guys say!!

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

It wouldn't be so much work if you did not insist on policing everything that your users said. Let them say what they want to say.

The problem is that real-life is not that unicorns-and-rainbows. You end up with a few griefers who drive off all the rational users who contribute to the site, and now you're running a forum for 12 asswipes who just bicker with each other endlessly.

[VtSteve]

Winni, I must defer to another poster here. Reading your posts, and some others, I can't help but wonder if you see any censorship in what you post. I think not, they all appear to be getting through the wall I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't pertain here. Newspapers and magazines have used moderation and censorship forever. Many opinion letters never see the light of day.

This is how Don's decided to proceed. How he can do this from his iPhone is beyond me, he must surely have better eyes than myself

There's a lot more to understand the why. So we'll just deal with it and be civil. Which is what it was not before. If subjects go poof that were not vile and nasty, then maybe you have a point. We should give this a rest now, because it is what it is.

[Kracken]

XCR-700,

I do NOT perceive any of your posts to be inflammatory, belittling or dismissive. Regardless of weather I agree with your point of view or not, your posts are articulate, civil and well thought out.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Kracken

XCR-700,

I do NOT perceive any of your posts to be inflammatory, belittling or dismissive. Regardless of weather I agree with your point of view or not, your posts are articulate, civil and well thought out.

Kracken,

I'm the first to admit that I may need to stop and take a breath on some matters that push my buttons.

Sorry I'm as flawed as the next guy and maybe more than most, but it is who I am and I post what I believe/feel.

And you are 100% correct, we dont need to agree on anything and sometimes it makes for more interesting reads when everyone is not all in agreement and it certainly causes people to stop and think about their positions on these matters we debate, and in my mind thats all good!

I like debate, I like heated debate, and I like different opinions!!!

And I think most of us agree we dont like trolls and personal attacks and unreasonable and sniping posts.

Do we need full full moderation on the Boating forum to address the improper posts of a few and the high sensitivities of some??? Well I guess thats just another issue where folks can agree or agree to disagree,,, Either way its here now. I have made my case against it or maybe just vented about it and I dont think I have any more to say about the specifics of this issue, but I am watching and listening and we will all see what the positive and negative impact of this change brings.

Either way, I am happy to be here and continue to be impressed by most of the folks who post here, You being one of them!

Thanks for the reply and PM, its usually pretty easy to tell who the class acts are around here!!!

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

Those of you who "own" forums and complain of the work... It wouldn't be so much work if you did not insist on policing everything that your users said. Let them say what they want to say. If it is not politically correct, and it is censored, then that shows that Webmaster is prejudiced--for whatever reason--toward those with aggressive opinions--in other words, people that are not like himself.

I realize that this is the InterWeb. There will be people who anonymously insult and criticize me. Fortunately, my skin is thicker than wax paper.

The policy should be something like:

"The purpose of this message board is to provide a forum for the free exchange of ideas. Views may not necessarily represent that of the owner ("Webmaster")." That way he doesn't look bad.

Or, we can take the money approach. If I posted a thread bashing Bizer in the boating forum (look at the top of this page), would he let it stick? Even if true, I'm sure nobody would here my view.

What if Webmaster accidently hopped on the summer bandwagon and sunk his boat? I think it would be too easy or him to pre-censor anything we have to say about his situation.

...

There is a reason our American laws give us so much freedom of speech. I am not trying to legally apply the 1A here, just the principle of it. And that is for hundreds of years, and still now in every country in the world except this one, millions are silenced of their beliefs and opinions by only a handful of people.

Webmaster is trying to be in that handful.

Sure, legally he can do it. He "owns" this forum. And by signing up, we agree to blindly agree to whatever he decides to do with it.

But in this user's opinion, he should stick to mirroring the levels of freedom guaranteed by those much more brilliant than himself (people like our Founding Fathers and SCOTUS justices). Maybe if somebody is really causing a problem, he can ban that user.

XCR, thanks for being a fellow non-sheep. We're not bad guys, no matter what the Bad Guys say!!

Since I'm the only poster who stated that they also ran forums, I'd like to address a couple of things about your post...

First - I don't complain when I say it's a lot of work; it's a fact. Raising children is also a lot of work; I don't complain. Keeping a garden is a lot of work; I don't complain.... It's my choice to do the work. It's mostly rewarding and I have no regrets.

Second - It's not about being "politically correct". I will be the first to fight for your right to voice your opinion. If you think the new law in AZ is a bunch of crap or if you embrace it - that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Ditto for any other issue of the day. But if you pick a fight with another poster, start name-calling, etc., then you have crossed the lines of reasonable communication, wouldn't you agree?

Some people feel they're bad to the bone when they get behind a keyboard, for some reason. You've read some outrageous posts here in cyberspace (not necessarily winni.com) I'm sure... They hide behind a monitor and a handle while throwing insults; they're really cowards. They say things on the internet they would never say to someone face-to-face.

However... You yourself mention banning a poster who is out of line... We've had folks here on winni.com who were banned for some reason or another, but you've offered the idea here in the same breath while accusing Don of censorship. Sorry, but what's the difference? (Sincere question...)

In a nutshell - slander, hate-speech, harassment, speech provoking people to a fight, including any kind of threat or violence, obscenities (child porn, for example), are not protected forms of speech. I don't think our Founding Fathers would have argued for folks to have the "right" to use those as freedom of speech.

I don't know about you but I come here because I love the sense of community, love for the lake and the Lakes Region, and (guess what?!) the hot topics of the day. I've never told anyone how they should think; but I have tried to show another side - another point of view - about a situation. I get where Don is coming from - it's not an easy position to be in and implementing a moderation policy can make the forum more difficult to manage but will make people "think twice" before they post.

I'd imagine that if Don kept stats on how many posts he's had to edit or delete after implementing his change in policy, I'd wager it's far less than he had to edit or delete because someone posted something inappropriate.

I'm sure you'll agree that we want this place to be "family friendly" and attract others with similar interests. I don't want to have to hide a screen when my kids walk by because someone has used a "bad word" or posted an inappropriate pic. I can get that junk off Craig's List, if I want that schmutz on my computer (no, thank you).

I don't think anyone came here or signed up for this forum "blindly" - the rules were on the screen when I signed in. They're no different than most forums I'm a part of, really. I believe we can agree to disagree without name calling or personal attacks - why would you want those things to be OK in the first place? (again, a sincere question...)

Now, if you'll excuse me... I have kids to chase and weeds to pull...

[Yosemite Sam]

Will this never end?

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Kracken

The speed limit forums contain:

172 threads
10,873 posts
500,000 + views.

Those are some extremely impressive numbers. It is safe to say there was some interest in these forums. Some might say the topic was beaten to death, hard to argue that with the facts in front of you. I have spent quite some time reading these threads. There is a little bit of everything in there. Some discussions are extremely entertaining, others are witty, many are thought provoking and some are simply childish.

There is a common theme they all share; one or more protagonists that escalate the debate. The instigators are very easy to identify. For the most part, they do not participate in the discussion. They simply add an inflammatory comment or two in the right spot and sit back and watch the chaos erupt. It’s like walking into a crowded room, breaking wind, and walking out. The troublemakers are not exclusive to one side of the argument. They create a flashpoint, a comment made to infuriate one group and it turns into a battle of who can land the biggest haymaker and receive the most accolades (thumbs up) from their side. I have seen this on other threads; a certain restaurant review comes to mind. They all end the same way… locked.

Enough is enough.

Several threads have been started to bring civility back to the forums (this being one of them). In this very thread there is a level headed debate between members with different viewpoints on the rules and civility. It seems even this thread is not immune to troublemakers. A single comment was posted to try to escalate the discussion into an argument. Fortunately, nobody took the bait.

That is progress

Kracken,

Just reading your post and realizing that as someone who in not one of the most active posters but is often opinionated, I hope I don’t fall into your class of instigators.

First and foremost I don’t have unlimited time to review every post and then respond to every post that I might have an opinion on. Its pretty much a hit/miss kind of thing with me, but I can assure you that I don’t sit back and think about ways to torque the other members up, I do have better things to do with my life,,, And for better or worse, when I do post I tell it the way I see it,,, so that picture I paint is 100% authentic and I’ll take my lumps for my sometimes different perspective (I never claimed to be mainstream,,,).

As for this thread in particular, being that I’m the bad guy that started this unthinkable opposition to moderation, I still stand by comments. I understand that the site owners can do whatever they want with their site, and as for all the other positions that have been posted on this matter, I acknowledge that from a certain perspective some may be practical reasons for moderation, unfortunately, for me the fundamental issues of a TOTAL dislike of censorship, the irritation of adults failing to take responsibility for their actions and/or being held accountable for their actions, and adults acting like spoiled brat children whining until they get what they want just pushes my buttons and then I turn into Mr prolific forum poster. Call it venting or whatever you want, but that’s my profile and I hope that is not what you equate to instigator. Maybe I’ll have to learn to take a breath before hitting the submit button,,,

As for the situation that allegedly got us into this full moderation mode, well again, maybe I’m odd man out here, but I do truly believe that there is nothing wrong with an expansive and heated debate on a forum. I think it causes some to review their positions to better articulate their thoughts and feelings, and maybe at some point they may even reevaluate that position. This is the backbone of our culture and to impose forced buffers (time) fully moderated reviews, and censorship is something that just rubs me wrong. That’s my reaction and clearly I am in the minority on this, but as I said, I fully embrace the concept of free and open debate, so I say have at it and if that does make me a instigator in the end, well then so be it. Guess I have been called worse,,, LOL

And my final argument in favor of open forums is exactly what you listed with your metrics, it clearly shows that “hot topics” are hot in terms of hits and participation. And that equals more revenue for the site, more exposure for its commercial advertisers, and hopefully more participation from posters and the value of different perspectives. And if I might add, I would be interested to see if the moderation is impacting the metrics of the boating forum,,, (negative)

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by XCR-700

Kracken,

Just reading your post and realizing that as someone who in not one of the most active posters but is often opinionated, I hope I don’t fall into your class of instigators.

First and foremost I don’t have unlimited time to review every post and then respond to every post that I might have an opinion on. Its pretty much a hit/miss kind of thing with me, but I can assure you that I don’t sit back and think about ways to torque the other members up, I do have better things to do with my life,,, And for better or worse, when I do post I tell it the way I see it,,, so that picture I paint is 100% authentic and I’ll take my lumps for my sometimes different perspective (I never claimed to be mainstream,,,).

As for this thread in particular, being that I’m the bad guy that started this unthinkable opposition to moderation, I still stand by comments. I understand that the site owners can do whatever they want with their site, and as for all the other positions that have been posted on this matter, I acknowledge that from a certain perspective some may be practical reasons for moderation, unfortunately, for me the fundamental issues of a TOTAL dislike of censorship, the irritation of adults failing to take responsibility for their actions and/or being held accountable for their actions, and adults acting like spoiled brat children whining until they get what they want just pushes my buttons and then I turn into Mr prolific forum poster. Call it venting or whatever you want, but that’s my profile and I hope that is not what you equate to instigator. Maybe I’ll have to learn to take a breath before hitting the submit button,,,

As for the situation that allegedly got us into this full moderation mode, well again, maybe I’m odd man out here, but I do truly believe that there is nothing wrong with an expansive and heated debate on a forum. I think it causes some to review their positions to better articulate their thoughts and feelings, and maybe at some point they may even reevaluate that position. This is the backbone of our culture and to impose forced buffers (time) fully moderated reviews, and censorship is something that just rubs me wrong. That’s my reaction and clearly I am in the minority on this, but as I said, I fully embrace the concept of free and open debate, so I say have at it and if that does make me a instigator in the end, well then so be it. Guess I have been called worse,,, LOL

And my final argument in favor of open forums is exactly what you listed with your metrics, it clearly shows that “hot topics” are hot in terms of hits and participation. And that equals more revenue for the site, more exposure for its commercial advertisers, and hopefully more participation from posters and the value of different perspectives. And if I might add, I would be interested to see if the moderation is impacting the metrics of the boating forum,,, (negative)

XCR-700, I couldn't agree with you more. Add one more black sheep to the list.

[Skip]

Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by Skip

Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by Skip

Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.

Do we still not have the right to voice our opinion? Or is that frowned upon in this "renewed" Winnipesaukee forum? Call it a foolish thread now if you want. I guess if we're not talking about how great our boat ride was today and how pretty the white puffy clouds we saw today on that boat ride it's not applicable.
Yes, Don owns the site and can make any rules he wants. And to use the word "jerks" in my opinion is childish.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by gtagrip

Do we still not have the right to voice our opinion?

Technically, you never had that right in the first place. A forum is conceptually like private property.

You have the right to free speech in public areas and free publication. You do NOT have a right to free speech inside or on another entities' private property.

Walk in to Walmart and try to setup a soapbox and starting preaching away at some core value you believe in. You'll be escorted off the premises post-haste and will have no recourse.

People seem to have make-believe "rights" to all sorts of things, or not understand what their Constitutional rights do and do not apply to. I'm not claiming to be an expert either, but you might want to do a little more research and understanding before you go too far off in what you believe to be "right".

[trfour]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Technically, you never had that right in the first place. A forum is conceptually like private property.

You have the right to free speech in public areas and free publication. You do NOT have a right to free speech inside or on another entities' private property.

Walk in to Walmart and try to setup a soapbox and starting preaching away at some core value you believe in. You'll be escorted off the premises post-haste and will have no recourse.

People seem to have make-believe "rights" to all sorts of things, or not understand what their Constitutional rights do and do not apply to. I'm not claiming to be an expert either, but you might want to do a little more research and understanding before you go too far off in what you believe to be "right".

You hit the nail right on the head!!!!

Ever since this thread showed up out here, I've been reading along and just praying to God to keep my mouth shut!.... I had to borrow one O'those white thingies what tie behind your back to keep me away from my keyboard, so to speak... you know, the boys in the white coats will lend'um for free!

Quality is job one out here! WebMaster Don not only Rocks & Rolls in this, and may I add, [ " The Best Website On This Planet " ]!!!!

Being a veteran myself, I have found that it is much more important to protect freedom of speech, and yet respect a more private space, should it also be important!...



Terry
__________________________________________________ ___

[fpartri497]

Get over It, Quit whining, get on with your life . This thread is total nonsense

[XCR-700]

I couldn’t help but laugh when I took a moment to clear my head and revisit some of the posts and I find it most interesting to see how some here who seem to support the moderation concept are also the ones who keep using interesting terms to address/describe any position counter to theirs.

Terms such as:

• I won't post in these two foolish threads again.
• You just don’t get it!
• That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....
• Will this never end?
• I think it should disappear into the sunset and never return.
• I've been reading along and just praying to God to keep my mouth shut!
• Get over It, Quit whining, get on with your life . This thread is total nonsense
• But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!
• those who don't like the rules can simply go elsewhere.
• ETC, Etc, etc,,,

And people are talking about “rights and ownership and protections” and I cant help but ask the question is this what got the boating site saddled with moderation,,,

I am the first to admit that I am often strongly opinionated and maybe even a bit hot-headed, but these posts clearly seem intolerant of opposing views and the posters appear to embody an omniscient attitude !

Worst of all is this reoccurring theme that voicing an opinion/preference about not liking the concept of forum moderation and censorship is somehow an attack on the owner of the Winnipesaukee.com site, which could not be farther from the truth.

Is this really the example you folks want to be using to promote a kinder and more user friendly forum?

Or maybe this is what you consider leading by example??

Or is this just the shut up and do what I say or suffer the consequences of our group wrath???

I think I will stick to my original comment “Very Disappointing,,,”

[Blue Thunder]

You've posted 11 times in this thread alone. I think you've made your point.......can we move on?

Blue Thunder

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

You've posted 11 times in this thread alone. I think you've made your point.......can we move on?

Blue Thunder

My apologies, I didn’t know there was a specific standard convention for the number of posts to a single and fairly active thread (and relatively obscure and hidden in the bowls of the site one no less)

But you are100% correct not only am I the one who got folks all riled up for voicing an apparently controversial opinion, I am probably its most prolific poster on this matter even after saying I would not say any more about the issue. Sorry,,,

I will close out my activity on this matter by saying that I have in fact seen reasonable posts in favor of moderation! I still remain convinced that it is NOT something I favor for a variety of reasons, but some here have made their case and probably better than I have.

I remain disappointed that the members of the site are not joining together to request a reconsideration of this change, and promising to conduct themselves in an adult and civil manner and focus on meaningful discussion without personal attacks nor being so thin-skinned and closed minded that any opposition to their point makes the other guy a bad-guy and label the post/thread ridiculous-foolish-nonsense-etc as we have seen in this thread!

The problems that have been reported on the boating forum are far more clear to me after seeing how this thread evolved and as was my original thought, there is a LOT of hostile energy around differences of opinion, and at least on this thread, NO legitimate concerns for personal attacks and NOT a single nasty PM to me! (not that I am looking for any,,,)

Well that’s what I walk away from this thread with,,,

I sincerely want to thank to all who posted in a reasonable and meaningful way!!!

I look forward to our next exciting adventure,,,

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Technically, you never had that right in the first place. A forum is conceptually like private property.

Then what is the sense of having a forum if different opinions cannot be heard?

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by gtagrip

Then what is the sense of having a forum if different opinions cannot be heard?

Dude. Seriously. The opinions HAVE been heard. About 8000 times. That's how we ended up here.

No one is trying to limit your ability to voice your opinion.

As far as I can tell, the moderation is simply making sure any blatant flame bait and trolling posts don't get posted, and you can't make a rational argument that THOSE posts add anything to the community.

It's *moderation* not *censorship* (for the most part, the only things being censored would appear to be those posts against the charter of the site, which you agreed to when signing up).

[Winnigirl]

IMO, there's a difference between expressing your opinion and beating a dead horse.

[CrawfordCentury]

Originally Posted by Winnigirl

IMO, there's a difference between expressing your opinion and beating a dead horse.

Ha! Since we're using this thread as a means of airing our grievances, I would like to express my utter dismay at this site's smileys selection. For example, this one would come in mighty handy on occasion

[VtSteve]

when the dead horse being beaten is your own. I think the next few years will provide some humor for many.

I read XCR's last post and understood full well what he meant. There are many that were quite put back by some of the more uncivil threads. In threads like this one, they may be civil, but their shout downs and put downs are still pretty obvious to most people.

I live right on Lake Champlain, up front and center. I "had" a next door neighbor from Winni, and we discussed the lake. She thought it was "so pristine" here. I reminisced about the cleaner water at Winni. She said, in a very civil tone, that Champlain was better because most every boat she saw here was a beautiful sailboat. So pristine.

She doesn't boat at all, neither power nor sail. Many on this forum remind me of her. She stated her case, and was quite perturbed, though civil, that anyone would dispute her view. It would be easier for me to turn a NASCAR driver into a pedal biker than vis versus.

[Rose]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

It will be interesting when the dead horse being beaten is your own.

My concern with beating any dead horse is that it ends up being unhealthy for the one doing the beating. I've learned over the years (and most likely lost a job because of it) that trying to get someone to see your logic is ultimately a waste of time and, if played out too long, sanity.

This situation of the entire boating forum being moderated rather than just the problematic few being punished reminds me of when I was in junior high and a few people misbehaved in the cafeteria. It ultimately led to the entire cafeteria being sat boy-girl-boy-girl for the entire lunch period. EEEEEWWWWW!!!! COOTIES!!!!! But I never thought how unfair of the adults to do that, I thought how unfair that we had to do that because of a few people who couldn't behave.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

There has always been forum moderation. What a few of you are reacting to is the TIMING of the moderation or redacting. Countless times in the past I've seen recently posted items and tell myself that's not going to last long and a short time later, POOF, it's gone. It violated the forum rules. There was moderation. What Don has done for the moment is changed the timing of his "editing" from post post to pre-post. In other words. Instead of reviewing the posts after they show up on the web, in the boating forum he is reviewing them BEFORE they appear in public.

So, there should be no clamor about moderation - it has ALWAYS been around this site. Webmaster Don has always reviewed each and every post. And, Don is very moderate in his moderation (I would have "blown up" or "locked up" many more posts/threads than he has - like this one for instance ) .

IHMO he is a very "liberal" moderator. It is very clear what is being "moderated" (it's in the forum rules). Your ideas and comments are welcome and do not have to agree with anyone. However, your style or personal attacks (different from ideas) may not belong on this forum. Example: Do you think that Don agrees with everything FatLazyLess posts? (no offense FLL )

Let's give this a rest and go moderately about our enjoyment of the lake and this web site.

And again, a big Thank You to Don and to all whose participation help make this a great site.

sliding off box of soap now...

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Skip

Yes....Don does indeed "own" this website.

Lock, stock and constitutionally protected barrell!

What do some of you not understand?

This site is the intellectual and constitututionally protected property of one person, and one person only....Don.

Any person that posts here, regardless of Don's carefully worded rules, does so at the whim, will and fancy of Don.

No one has a right or even a privilege to be here but Don.

The vast majority of the regular posters here understand that, and have voted with their feet when it come to some of these controversial and repetitive threads.

That a handful of you still don't understand Don's rights and his mission here would be laughable, if you didn't repeat your ignorance on the subject over and over and over and over!

Don has to be doing something right. He is approaching his second decade of existence here. I have seen a number of individuals attempt to copy Don's success, only to wither and fade within a matter of months.

I've had the privilege to be his guest for almost a decade now. I have gotten to understand the method of his madness during that time, and feel safe to say few love the Lakes region as much as Don, very few have sacrificed the time & money to promote it as Don does, and very few families have allowed their loved ones to spend so much time away from family to allow far away families the ability to visit the Lake electronically any time of the day or night.

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable.

This website is filled with so many helpful, interesting and just plain nice folk. But boy does it have a few jerks wedged in the crevices!

That some of you can't tell what column you fall in to is oh sooooo sad....

Once again, sorry Don....I won't post in these two foolish threads again.

Great post Skip. I completely agree that Don has total control and people have to respect his wishes concerning what topics and debate should and should not occur.

Per your suggestion and that of many others it was said to take the debate elsewhere. So in the spirit of getting the hot topics that continuosly come up off winni.com and hopefully allows for the boating forum to become un-moderated once again, sbonh set up a forum where these discussions can go on. I truely hope that it will be an alternative and a place Don can point to, to make sure those same conversations no longer occur here. If anyone is interested it is as www.sbonh.org/forums

[NoBozo]

I posted on the Boating Forum ..maybe 10:00 AM (Tues) this morning. I didn't write the time down. Why would I..? SAMIAM got posted at 9:25. SO: No new posts for EIGHT hours. That works for me. NB

[RI Swamp Yankee]

If I recall correctly, in the "good old days" every post by every member was moderated. Somehow the forum survived quite nicely and became what it is today. Thanks Don for doing what you had to do to make it what it is now.

[webmaster]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I posted on the Boating Forum ..maybe 10:00 AM (Tues) this morning. I didn't write the time down. Why would I..? SAMIAM got posted at 9:25. SO: No new posts for EIGHT hours. That works for me. NB

I usually check in to approve posts frequently but I happen to be on vacation this week. We had company today and were out in the boat most of the day and then went straight to dinner. Sorry, I'll try to do better tomorrow.

[VitaBene]

Enjoy your vacation Don. We will survive!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by webmaster

I usually check in to approve posts frequently but I happen to be on vacation this week. We had company today and were out in the boat most of the day and then went straight to dinner. Sorry, I'll try to do better tomorrow.

Glad you are taking a much needed break Don...and take your time with the website, most of us here are very patient and very understanding of the fantastic job you do here!

[Winnipesaukee]

XCR, we won! A check reveals the over-moderation of the forum is over (at least, for now). What a proud day for America and free speech fighters everywhere!

[Shedwannabe]

Winnipesaukee

How deeply into your cheek can your tongue get? The debate over moderation is as over as the Iraq war was over when Bush declared "Mission Accomplished"? Are you suggesting this thread has another 7 years of life in it? ;-)

[jeffk]

It is a very rare place that you can say whatever you want to. Try walking through a public park and yelling at people at random and see how long you get away with it before a police officer has a conversation with you. Pure freedom of speech doesn't really exist. We are expected to use our voice in a respectful and non threatening manner. We are constantly being "moderated" by society.

In this forum we have always been moderated by the rules of the forum that we all agreed to when we join. Don has respectfully allowed us to police ourselves until we demonstrate that some of us are incapable of doing that. I'm sure Don has stepped in to enforce the rules through moderation with extreme regret. It is a disappointment in his vision for the site and a major hassle for him as well. The rules have not changed, Don as simply tightened up the enforcement. My experience with Don has been that he is extremely tolerant and fair. Don has not stopped debate, simply required that we be respectful and fair. That should not be a burden.

[Winnipesaukee]

Originally Posted by Skip

Quite frankly I find some of the comments and allegations made against Don here, and in the other thread, dispicable [sic].

Skip, Did you spend your legal career working for, I don't know, the Hazelwood School District?

Yes, I understand that because Don owns this website, legally he can do whatever he wants on it. We agree here.

But the point of my argument is that he is acting directly against what this country was founded upon. Surely I can disagree with his actions, right? We should also closely scrutinize him, because he is our one and only public authority figure (sorry, maybe I'm too much of an American... )

There is no other vehicle for public communication in the Lakes Region in which any and all ordinary people can log on and easily express their opinions. This forum is our ONLY option for expressing ourselves to other members of the Lakes Region. Since we have nowhere else to go, we are forced to take whatever Webmaster feeds us.

From a moral standpoint, in this American's opinion, he should not be censoring (and by censor I mean delay or change posts in any way, with or without the permission or notification of the poster) our messages. It is simply not his duty. His scope of censorship should be limited to banning those who frequent post hateful or pornographic messages.

I recently made a post in the boating section (Etiquette) which I later found to be changed. (I said "Capt Bonehead" and later found it changed to " {He} " ) Webmaster is already overstepping his role by micro-moderating our posts. And the least he could do is TELL us he changed something.

MY posts should not be delayed (and pre-read and changed) because of the actions of others.

Webmaster is not doing anything illegal (and nobody here thinks so). Again, the spirit of his actions are closer to that of the Chinese government than what we enjoy as Americans.

If our country hasn't burnt to the ground as a result of giving 300 million people this huge freedom of speech, why should it be so hard to control a couple hundred people on a message board?

Webmaster, just lift the pre-screening. I promise cities won't fall into the sea.