Boating Accident/Death off Diamond Island

Scupper · 03-17-2010, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Let me be the first to welcome you to the forum...and let me be the first to ask you to GO AWAY.. NB

Obviously I struck a nerve with you NB. Note the length of my membership on this forum...since 2006. Yes, I have few posts, but I only post on issues that appear to have substance. This is one of them. I could care less about the sunset on a particular night, ice cream at Sibley's, debate over the speed limits, whining about being stopped by M.P., etc...

What I care about is the loss of a life, a passenger that had no say, no control over the operation of the boat, and can't be brought back to life. There seems to be a lynch mob mentality against anyone that doesn't feel sympathy for the operator responsible for this "accident."

NB, I have a daughter. If she was the victim in this case, I would want justice. Sympathy due to the operator's standing in the community, personal relationship, or emotion is misguided. Facts are clarity, emotion and denial are blinding to the facts.

For those of you that stuck up for me thanks! I'll post again in another hmm, four years when substance arises again.

john60ri · 03-17-2010, 06:59 PM

Wow! Scupper is my new hero! I have a daughter too, and he's right - it's about the facts and it's about justice. Let the wheel of justice turn.

jrc · 03-17-2010, 07:01 PM

I think lynch mob is a little strong, no one is even debating punishment, just guilty or not guilty.

First the jury must decide, but it is harmless now for us to give our opinions of her guilt or non-guilt. After the verdict, if she is found guilty, a judge will decide her fate. That's when arguements like she suffered enough already should come in.

My opinion is based almost solely on the .15 BAC. This is clearly over the limit. We decided as a society 20-30 years ago that if you drive while drunk and someone gets killed, you go to jail. You don't have to like it, or believe its a good idea, but its law. If you can get off the hook, when double the limit and three people are seriously hurt, one killed, when does the law apply?

If she was sober. Then it's tougher. But in her own words she lost all visibilty and then she sped up! I can't reconcile that action.

NoBozo · 03-17-2010, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scupper

Obviously I struck a nerve with you NB. Note the length of my membership on this forum...since 2006. Yes, I have few posts, but I only post on issues that appear to have substance. This is one of them. I could care less about the sunset on a particular night, ice cream at Sibley's, debate over the speed limits, whining about being stopped by M.P., etc...

What I care about is the loss of a life, a passenger that had no say, no control over the operation of the boat, and can't be brought back to life. There seems to be a lynch mob mentality against anyone that doesn't feel sympathy for the operator responsible for this "accident."

NB, I have a daughter. If she was the victim in this case, I would want justice. Sympathy due to the operator's standing in the community, personal relationship, or emotion is misguided. Facts are clarity, emotion and denial are blinding to the facts.

For those of you that stuck up for me thanks! I'll post again in another hmm, four years when substance arises again.

SCUPPER: I'll bet you wouldn't expect this response from me. YOUR Response to my post seems Quite Sincere and I respect ..even agree with parts of your stated position above. It is quite possable I mis-interpreted your original post. If I got it wrong....I apologize. NB

Scupper · 03-17-2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

SCUPPER: I'll bet you wouldn't expect this response from me. YOUR Response to my post seems Quite Sincere and I respect ..even agree with parts of your stated position above. It is quite possable I mis-interpreted your original post. If I got it wrong....I apologize. NB

No harm, no foul.

SumoDog · 03-17-2010, 07:28 PM

I think this case and many similar cases create an interesting question that I am sure the jury and all wrestle with - is an accident an accident or is someone always responsible and punishable for their actions. I truly believe that this was an accident - was it negligent on the defendants part - the jury will decide - but I have no doubt that the defendent did not leave that evening with the thought of wrecking her boat and her friend dying due to that action. Did her actions of the evening contribute to the sad event that occured - the jury will decide - I truly believe that we have to look at everyone involved - if she was OUI - should her friends have gotten on the boat with her? If they had any thoughts that she was unable to navigate the boat - why get on - I'm sure they all had cell phones - I've been with people that I concluded were unfit to drive - I did not get in the car with them. Had I and something terrible happen - didn't I just make a choice to risk my life and isn't that contributory negligence on my part? We seem to be (as a society) developing an attitude that nothing is our fault and someone should be blamed and sued. Whatever happen to taking responsibility for your actions - you screw up - pay the price. No jury verdict, sentence will bring the young woman back to her family and friends - that is the saddest thing. Everyone on that boat that evening had a choice - sadly it turned out to be a very bad choice all and a life ending choice for one.

TiltonBB · 03-17-2010, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scupper

Obviously I struck a nerve with you NB. Note the length of my membership on this forum...since 2006. Yes, I have few posts, but I only post on issues that appear to have substance. This is one of them. I could care less about the sunset on a particular night, ice cream at Sibley's, debate over the speed limits, whining about being stopped by M.P., etc...

What I care about is the loss of a life, a passenger that had no say, no control over the operation of the boat, and can't be brought back to life. There seems to be a lynch mob mentality against anyone that doesn't feel sympathy for the operator responsible for this "accident."

NB, I have a daughter. If she was the victim in this case, I would want justice. Sympathy due to the operator's standing in the community, personal relationship, or emotion is misguided. Facts are clarity, emotion and denial are blinding to the facts.

For those of you that stuck up for me thanks! I'll post again in another hmm, four years when substance arises again.

I am just curious, not passing judgement.

Do you think that the passenger who accompanies the driver for the evening and observes all of the alcohol the she drank (whatever the volume) bears any responsibility for her own demise?

If the jury decides that the alcohol was the determining factor in the accident would you think that the passenger should have refused to ride in the boat?

I'm not expressing an opinion, just asking a question.

ApS · 03-18-2010, 04:43 AM

It is the Captain who is burdened with the judgment of safe passage—and who bears full responsibility regardless of the condition of the passengers. (Drunk, unruly, sick, injured—even unconscious).

jrc · 03-18-2010, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I am just curious, not passing judgement.

Do you think that the passenger who accompanies the driver for the evening and observes all of the alcohol the she drank (whatever the volume) bears any responsibility for her own demise?

If the jury decides that the alcohol was the determining factor in the accident would you think that the passenger should have refused to ride in the boat?

I'm not expressing an opinion, just asking a question.

In my opinion, the passenegers actions have no bearing on the criminal aspect of the incident. The actions could come into play in a civil trial.

In determining guilt, I don't think a defendent can say "I'm not guilty because my friends should have stopped me".

But in a civil trial the passenger or their family is suing for damages. The driver's lawyer could say the passenger should have known better, given the circumstances.

This is pure conjecture based on your question.

fpartri497 · 03-18-2010, 07:05 AM

One thing for sure Is no matter the outcome of this trial, EVERYBODY loses

chipj29 · 03-18-2010, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fpartri497

One thing for sure Is no matter the outcome of this trial, EVERYBODY loses

I think that is the most factual statement in this thread.

NoRegrets · 03-18-2010, 08:31 AM

Appling "guilt" in today's world.

A little over 30 years ago my brother took the family car out for the evening. There was an ice storm and he lost control and slid into the guardrails. No one was hurt but the sheet metal on the car was damaged. When he told my dad about the accident my dad said he would work out a way for my brother to pay for the repairs. My brother’s comment was that it wasn't his fault because of the conditions of the road. My father firmly replied that he made the choice to put the key in the ignition and move the vehicle. End of the discussion and my brother had to pay the cost to repair. I knew at that point the meaning of responsibility.

Somehow our society has evolved away for the intent of the law and favors the technicality of the law. Too often we see how money, power, or relationships win favors or pardons. Casual observance of these cases often can lead to cynicism over the process.

Drunk, not drunk, rating the visibility, mental conditions, or any other factors in the case may be used to set the severity of the punishment but I believe Erica "put the key in the ignition" and is responsible for the accident.

I have seen some very thoughtful posts and am thankful for the interchange between Scupper and NoBozo.

Sympathy and prayers to all who suffer loss through tragedies and let us all benefit from this incident by being reminded of the consequences that can happen if you are not careful.

fatlazyless · 03-18-2010, 10:14 AM

And, on the other hand, if you cross the center line while totally sober and kill three and injure a fourth, a 25-year old Thornton male first sentenced to 12 years in NH prison recently had his case successfully appealed in NH Supreme Court by Atty James Moir. In June 2009, the NH Supreme Court voted 3-1 to over rule the conviction of a 25 year old male from Thornton who struck two Harley Davidsons head-on, in June 2006. By drifting across the center line of Route 49 in Thornton at the s-curve, he killed three and injured a fourth person, who were two married couples ages 53-54, all employed at an Indiana GM car dealer, who were in NH for motorcycle week. First, sentenced to 12 years in state prison, his convicton was over turned after serving about 2 1/2 years, when the NH Supreme Court decided that what he did did not constitute negligence.

He had a blood alcohol level of zero at the time. He did have a number of prior driving violations including moving violations, however that information was not allowed to be admitted during the trial.

Justice Linda Dalianis, speaking for the majority, said something like; " ...he crossed the center line for some unknown reason and that does not equal negligence."

In my personal opinion when it comes to determining negligence, it probably does not matter if you are legally drunk or just day-dreaming when you cross the center line, especially when the victim is a member of your family.

03-17-2010, 06:59 PM	#2
john60ri Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Pawtucket RI Posts: 146 Thanks: 1 Thanked 22 Times in 16 Posts	Scupper Wow! Scupper is my new hero! I have a daughter too, and he's right - it's about the facts and it's about justice. Let the wheel of justice turn.

03-18-2010, 04:43 AM	#8
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 5,938 Thanks: 2,205 Thanked 776 Times in 553 Posts	In Maritime Matters... It is the Captain who is burdened with the judgment of safe passage—and who bears full responsibility regardless of the condition of the passengers. (Drunk, unruly, sick, injured—even unconscious).

03-18-2010, 07:05 AM	#10
fpartri497 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Concord NH Posts: 681 Thanks: 97 Thanked 48 Times in 39 Posts	boating accident One thing for sure Is no matter the outcome of this trial, EVERYBODY loses __________________ dont worry be happy

03-18-2010, 10:14 AM	#13
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,750 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,010 Times in 736 Posts	...defining negligence in NH? And, on the other hand, if you cross the center line while totally sober and kill three and injure a fourth, a 25-year old Thornton male first sentenced to 12 years in NH prison recently had his case successfully appealed in NH Supreme Court by Atty James Moir. In June 2009, the NH Supreme Court voted 3-1 to over rule the conviction of a 25 year old male from Thornton who struck two Harley Davidsons head-on, in June 2006. By drifting across the center line of Route 49 in Thornton at the s-curve, he killed three and injured a fourth person, who were two married couples ages 53-54, all employed at an Indiana GM car dealer, who were in NH for motorcycle week. First, sentenced to 12 years in state prison, his convicton was over turned after serving about 2 1/2 years, when the NH Supreme Court decided that what he did did not constitute negligence. He had a blood alcohol level of zero at the time. He did have a number of prior driving violations including moving violations, however that information was not allowed to be admitted during the trial. Justice Linda Dalianis, speaking for the majority, said something like; " ...he crossed the center line for some unknown reason and that does not equal negligence." In my personal opinion when it comes to determining negligence, it probably does not matter if you are legally drunk or just day-dreaming when you cross the center line, especially when the victim is a member of your family. __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

The Following User Says Thank You to Scupper For This Useful Post:
ApS (03-17-2010)

03-17-2010, 07:01 PM	#3
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I think lynch mob is a little strong, no one is even debating punishment, just guilty or not guilty. First the jury must decide, but it is harmless now for us to give our opinions of her guilt or non-guilt. After the verdict, if she is found guilty, a judge will decide her fate. That's when arguements like she suffered enough already should come in. My opinion is based almost solely on the .15 BAC. This is clearly over the limit. We decided as a society 20-30 years ago that if you drive while drunk and someone gets killed, you go to jail. You don't have to like it, or believe its a good idea, but its law. If you can get off the hook, when double the limit and three people are seriously hurt, one killed, when does the law apply? If she was sober. Then it's tougher. But in her own words she lost all visibilty and then she sped up! I can't reconcile that action.

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to NoBozo For This Useful Post:
ApS (03-18-2010), VtSteve (03-17-2010)

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Scupper For This Useful Post:
ApS (03-18-2010), eillac@dow (03-17-2010), VtSteve (03-17-2010)

03-17-2010, 07:28 PM	#6
SumoDog Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	I think this case and many similar cases create an interesting question that I am sure the jury and all wrestle with - is an accident an accident or is someone always responsible and punishable for their actions. I truly believe that this was an accident - was it negligent on the defendants part - the jury will decide - but I have no doubt that the defendent did not leave that evening with the thought of wrecking her boat and her friend dying due to that action. Did her actions of the evening contribute to the sad event that occured - the jury will decide - I truly believe that we have to look at everyone involved - if she was OUI - should her friends have gotten on the boat with her? If they had any thoughts that she was unable to navigate the boat - why get on - I'm sure they all had cell phones - I've been with people that I concluded were unfit to drive - I did not get in the car with them. Had I and something terrible happen - didn't I just make a choice to risk my life and isn't that contributory negligence on my part? We seem to be (as a society) developing an attitude that nothing is our fault and someone should be blamed and sued. Whatever happen to taking responsibility for your actions - you screw up - pay the price. No jury verdict, sentence will bring the young woman back to her family and friends - that is the saddest thing. Everyone on that boat that evening had a choice - sadly it turned out to be a very bad choice all and a life ending choice for one.

The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to ApS For This Useful Post:
BroadHopper (03-19-2010), codeman671 (03-18-2010), Dave R (03-18-2010), LIforrelaxin (03-18-2010), RI Swamp Yankee (03-18-2010), secondcurve (03-19-2010), VtSteve (03-18-2010)

The Following User Says Thank You to fpartri497 For This Useful Post:
Seadoo (03-18-2010)

03-18-2010, 08:31 AM	#12
NoRegrets Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Hudson - NH Posts: 408 Thanks: 233 Thanked 212 Times in 88 Posts	Appling "guilt" in today's world. A little over 30 years ago my brother took the family car out for the evening. There was an ice storm and he lost control and slid into the guardrails. No one was hurt but the sheet metal on the car was damaged. When he told my dad about the accident my dad said he would work out a way for my brother to pay for the repairs. My brother’s comment was that it wasn't his fault because of the conditions of the road. My father firmly replied that he made the choice to put the key in the ignition and move the vehicle. End of the discussion and my brother had to pay the cost to repair. I knew at that point the meaning of responsibility. Somehow our society has evolved away for the intent of the law and favors the technicality of the law. Too often we see how money, power, or relationships win favors or pardons. Casual observance of these cases often can lead to cynicism over the process. Drunk, not drunk, rating the visibility, mental conditions, or any other factors in the case may be used to set the severity of the punishment but I believe Erica "put the key in the ignition" and is responsible for the accident. I have seen some very thoughtful posts and am thankful for the interchange between Scupper and NoBozo. Sympathy and prayers to all who suffer loss through tragedies and let us all benefit from this incident by being reminded of the consequences that can happen if you are not careful.