Lt. Dunleavy, NHMP, responds....

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Lake Winnipesaukee is congested. It is a limited public resource and large, fast boats use up a disproportionately large amount of that resource. Camp directors have been keeping children off the lake at times because they feel it is unsafe. Many operators of small boats and unpowered craft feel intimidated, and unsafe.

Bear Islander.

Being that my place looks across at Camp Lawrence and I see plenty of traffic in the area all day long I do not see speeding being the issue in my particular area. The open bay between Mark and Bear is clearly one of the more popular watersports spots on the lake, the Camp boat is out there every morning when the camp is in session taking kids waterskiing.

The main safety issue I see is people coming through the area that do not know what 150' looks like, or criss-crossing each other while towing skiers. I am surprised that the camp does not have more of a designated "stay-out" zone around it, as I have seen boats coming out of homes on Bear to the left of the camp cut very close to the beach.

I was sitting on my jet ski (stopped) with a few friends last season about 100' from shore and a clown cut in between myself and shore, he was towing a skier and yelled at me for being in his line! Being that he stayed approximately the same distance from shore upon leaving his place he was within 75' of the camp beach and further down the shore passed within 25' of me at best. For the record it was a yellow Sugar Sand Tango jet boat.

My point is that there are safety issues on the lake, but the speed limit won't fix it. How often have you seen 38' Fountains doing 80mph 100' from shore? Personally I wish they would invoke the NWZ that had been discussed as you round the corner of Mark. The markers are close together and with the field of rocks on the Bear side there is not enough space in my opinion for boats to pass safely at speed. We do see boats tear around the corner from time to time, I am more upset with how close people cut the corner. I have had people come inside or actually hit my moorings which are no more than 90' from shore.

For the record, I agree that speed is fun, when done safely and in the proper area. I am a speed junkie myself, although I do not own a boat faster than 55ish. In between the islands is no place for it, but in the broads have at it! I do agree with 25mph at night. I will admit that I have gone much faster in the Broads at night coming back from Alton, but would have no issue with a 25mph limit.

There are other solutions for safety on the lake. I would love to see no accidents, close calls, etc.. If the GFBL's are scaring people away, let them! It keeps crowding down...

[Bear Islander]

Hazelnut

There are just two important points we can not agree on. Nobody is going to all this time, expense and trouble to pass a speed limit because they don't like a certain kind of boat. I can't make you guys believe that, but it's true. Why can't you just assume that most of the proponents want a speed limit for the same reasons I do?

I disagree that enforcing the existing laws and educating boaters will achieve a better lake. The worst offenders are unteachable. And huge increases in education and enforcement just are not going to happen. I prefer to go with a solution that actually will work, instead of one that is a nice idea but virtually impossible to achieve.

Woodsy

You arguments are so one sided and unrealistic, I hardly know how to respond.

As one example you idea that children's camps should hire Marine Patrol details to protect their children from power boats is completely INSANE!!! I would email it to every Senator as an example of where the opposition thinking is going, but truthfully it's so bizarre I think they would take it for a joke.

You ask when was the last time a camper was harmed by a speeding boat. They are harmed every time they can't go out in a boat because the people responsible for their safety will not take the risk. Perhaps when people are enjoying their 1,500 horsepower ride down the lake they should think about how many small children they are keeping on shore.

[hazelnut]

I'm sorry but you can not make me believe it because you say it in your own argument:

Quote: "(The Lake).. is a limited public resource and large, fast boats use up a disproportionately large amount of that resource....Many operators of small boats and unpowered craft feel intimidated, and unsafe.

This is a direct quote from your own statement as to why you support the bill. This is your statement. Am I missing something. I'm not trying t to be rude here but this crux of your argument. Fast boats use up too much of the resource, therefore we must rid the lake of them. You yourself pitted the small boats vs the big boats in your own argument.

Please explain how you can then go on to say, "Nobody is going to all this time, expense and trouble to pass a speed limit because they don't like a certain kind of boat." Just 5 posts later?

Other direct quotes:
"As this trend continues Winnipesaukee will become more attractive to high speed boating. Without a speed limit more and more high performance boats will be attracted to Winnipesaukee..."
and:
"The trend toward larger and faster boating is adding to this problem through pollution and erosion."

Again your argument is against certain types of boats that you do not want on the water. Big fast boats are now to blame for erosion and pollution. Not the 45 foot Carver that makes 4 foot waves?

I'm not saying you don't LIKE a certain kind of boat I am saying you are discriminating against a certain type of boat. Your argument blames the boat not the driver. That is a flawed argument in my eyes.

[Bear Islander]

I can love a wildflower, but when one grows in my lawn I will kill it. That doesn't mean I hate it, it's just in the wrong place.

Many high performance boats are beautiful, I even like the sound (except late at night) but if they disrupt children's camps, pollute my drinking water or endanger tourism, then they need to go.

I have explained to you the damage I believe the increasing numbers of larger faster boats are doing to the lake I love. I'm sorry, but it's time to go.

It's not about hatred or dislike, it's about them being in the wrong place.

I will reference two old movies "Old Yeller" and "The Yearling".

[hazelnut]

My opinion, I too love the look and the sound of a performance boat, in the proper setting. When they held the races on the broads I was there front and center, loving every minute of it.
However, It does not thrill me to have them zipping by my house with loud exhaust preventing normal conversation. I have noticed that through increased law enforcement the real loud boats are becoming fewer and fewer. That is a good example of better enforcement of current laws in effect.

With that said this Speed Limit bill is disguising itself as a "Safety Measure" that will help make the lake safer. Safer than what? No accidents attributed to speed ever? The real agenda is ridding the lake of what some percieve as undesirable.

You make no excuses for that with your comment. I appreciate your honesty on that. However, it all seems a bit biased. The whole "Let's get rid of these loud fast boats even though they haven't done anything wrong, we just think they are too loud and there are too many of them."

You are an Islander, so am I. What if the mainlanders got enough people together to lead a charge to rid the lake of excess boat traffic by limiting Islanders access? They could claim we traverse back and forth too much using too more than our fair share of the resource. After all I don't think it would be hard to convince some minds that Islanders boat more than most of the boating public, agree? So what if by some convoluted, crazy manor some mainlander was able to get the ear of some State Rep to write up a bill. Now equating this to the Speed Limit bill it would have to be an arbitrary bill that doesn't address the actual problem so instead of coming right out and saying we want to get rid of Islanders it would be something to the effect of, a HUGE TAX on Island homeowners that own boats or something to that effect. Like a toll or a usage fee. It would only apply to Island homeowners and the proponents would argue that we use the lake more we "take up more space" going back and forth. We should pay more of the taxes to use that resource. After all we Islanders add to that congestion more than most don't we? I have put you on the other side of the argument now Bear Islander. I don't agree with what I have just posted, I could argue that I use the lake less than most mainlanders but I could NEVER convince them of that because they would throw it in my face that I must use it more because I have to get back and forth.

Remember people are being directly and arbitrarily affected by this Bill. Just because you and the Bill supporters "feel" that these boats don't belong here.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

...What if the mainlanders got enough people together to lead a charge to rid the lake of excess boat traffic by limiting Islanders access? ...

Not for the same reason, but in Nashua people were prohibited from using their island homes because the only access was cut-off by water. The fire department said if we can't get our trucks there, you can't live there. Imagine if the state fire marshal had the same thought. How can they protect the children on the islands from fire and injury if they can't get fire truck or ambulances there? For safety reasons you may not be allowed to live there.

Now that would be a stupid law with no evidence to back up the dangers and only driven by irrational fear of a statistically improbable event. But what about the children...

[Bear Islander]

Those Nashua islanders should have bought themselves a big twin engine fire boat, portable Indian Pumps and received firefighting training like the residents of Bear Island did.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Those Nashua islanders should have bought themselves a big twin engine fire boat, portable Indian Pumps and received firefighting training like the residents of Bear Island did.

Or they could repair the access, like they did. But of course that's not the point.

BTW you do realize that acording to the USCG, NH boat registrations have been nearly flat or decreasing over the last few years. So the overcrowding rational is bunk. There are only about 2% more boats today than 5 years ago.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by jrc

Or they could repair the access, like they did. But of course that's not the point.

BTW you do realize that acording to the USCG, NH boat registrations have been nearly flat or decreasing over the last few years. So the overcrowding rational is bunk. There are only about 2% more boats today than 5 years ago.

The lake was overcrowded 5 years ago. We have been arguing speed limits for 3. And a 2% increase is an increase.

How have the registration of longer boats changed?

If I sold my bow rider and purchased a Nor-Tech last year, how does that effect those numbers? IT DOESN'T!

[hazelnut]

Bear Islander,

I do appreciate your honesty. I believe you are a reasonable person who is frustrated with the state of things on the lake. We share common ground with regard to our feelings about safety on the lake. As you have stated we just disagree on the solution. I do not expect to convert you. It's a shame it has come to this. I know you think that there is a light at the end of the tunnel with a speed limit. I really do not believe that a speed limit will solve anything. Education and enforcement is the answer.

Side note: is this truly a partisan issue? Are you a democrat

[hazelnut]

jrc,

Excellent post. It further solidifies my point. Imagine that Bear Islander? A foolish law enacted preventing us from using our Island Homes? Based on fear mongering and no real fact? People dreaming up scenarios that "could" or "might" happen.

[Bear Islander]

Sorry, not a good analogy at all. You have already admitted a problem exists on the lake, we only differ on the solution.

Remember earlier in this thread when Dick posted..

"Any camp director who would allow the kids to swim beyond the swim line buoys or take a canoe out onto the big lake should be fired immediately."

It seems like Dick also sees the danger.

If I ever get an inkling that living on the island is endangering my child, I will leave immediately, no legislation will be required.

[Cal]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out even if there were no other boats on the lake , simply for the rescue distance in case of a mishap.

[Bear Islander]

Our emergency response time is good. Several 911 calls have been made from the island in recent years, one from our home. The Marine Patrol usually arrives first, the fire boat is not far behind. There must be many homes in Meredith and the surrounding area, that due to their remote location have longer response times than the islands. From the Fire Station to my cabin is less than four miles.

[hazelnut]

So we agree there is a problem of congestion, and dangerous behavior right?

Let's simplify the debate even further:

Bear Islander and all supporters of the HB in question please answer a simple yes or no to the following question. No adjective, description, comment, argument just a simple y/n or if you prefer yes/no.

The biggest problem on the lake today is that boats are speeding. Yes or No


My answer = NO!

[Bear Islander]

No










.....

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

So we agree there is a problem of congestion, and dangerous behavior right?

Let's simplify the debate even further:

Bear Islander and all supporters of the HB in question please answer a simple yes or no to the following question. No adjective, description, comment, argument just a simple y/n or if you prefer yes/no.

The biggest problem on the lake today is that boats are speeding. Yes or No


My answer = NO!

....

...


...

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I can love a wildflower, but when one grows in my lawn I will kill it. That doesn't mean I hate it, it's just in the wrong place.

This is your idea of compromising with Nature?

Sounds like your idea of compromise with the proponents is the old saying, "My way or the highway! (and good riddance)"

P.S.- Lady Bird would very disappointed in your viewpoint toward wildflowers.

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Many high performance boats are beautiful, I even like the sound (except late at night) but if they disrupt children's camps, pollute my drinking water or endanger tourism, then they need to go.

I have explained to you the damage I believe the increasing numbers of larger faster boats are doing to the lake I love. I'm sorry, but it's time to go.

Please provide proof that performance boats are polluting the drinking water any more than other motorized watercraft. For that matter, prove that they pollute the water more than waterfront homes and businesses.

With regard to affecting tourism, I've seen a proportionate number of every motorized type having a negative effect on my boating experience. Where is your proof that performance boats are affecting tourism at a disproportionate rate?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Rose

Please provide proof that performance boats are polluting the drinking water any more than other motorized watercraft. For that matter, prove that they pollute the water more than waterfront homes and businesses.

With regard to affecting tourism, I've seen a proportionate number of every motorized type having a negative effect on my boating experience. Where is your proof that performance boats are affecting tourism at a disproportionate rate?

First, I never made that claim. But more importantly, why don't YOU prove that performance boats pollute less.

The proof that tourism is being effected is in the below list of speed limit supporters. You will note many are tourist related. There are even several marinas in there. Including marinas that sell large fast boats.

The Common Man
Ashalnd Insurance
Strictly Rentals
Wild Meadow Canoes and Kayaks
Centre Harbor Cellars
Center Harbor Inn
AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club)
NH Audubon
New Hampshire Lakes Association (NHLA)
Decker Machinery Company
The Architectural Studio
Fay’s Boat Yard
Birch Island Camp Association
Gilford Islands Association (GIA)
Jolly Island Association
Lockes Island Association
Belknap Landscaping Company
Design Quest
DK Net Design
E&S Insurance LLC
The Hair Factory
Mike’s Ala Carte Catering
Pepi Herrmann Crystal, Inc.
Glendale Marine
River Edge Marina
Squam Lakes Association (SLA)
Cottage Place on Squam Lake
Squam Lake Inn
Me Designs
Barrons Billiards
Blooms Vanity
J&J Printing
LaBelles Shoe Store
Central & Northern Title
Haughey, Philpot & Laurent
Lakeside Hotel Assoc.
Sundial Shops
Paugus Bay Marina
Best Western Silver Fox Inn
Griffin Bodi Krause
Municipal Resources, Inc.
Great Northern Trading Co
Meredith Marina
Y-Landing
Bear Island Conservation Association (BICA)
East Bear Island Conservation Association
AMC- 3 Mile Island
Winnipesaukee Rowing Club
Alexandria Lamp Shop
Case N’ Keg
Chris Dupont Painting
Christopher P. Williams, Architects
Eisenberg Chiropractic
Hawkins Photography
Hobo Railroad
Landscapes By Tom
League of NH Craftsmen
Mastiff Builders
Omni Signs
Patricia’s “Specially for You”
Pemi Glass Company
Pretty Petunias Garden Center
Remax Bay Side Real Estate
Remcon/North
Sagecliff Software, Inc.
The Village Perk
Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad
GASCO Realty, LLC
51 Main Street, LLc
Inns & Spa at Mill Falls
Meredith Bay Painting
The Lake House Grille
Lago
Camp
Town Docks Restaurant
Mame's
The Gallery at Mill Falls
Oglethorp
Guiseppies Resturant
Northern Air Trading
Lady of the Lake Clothing
Adorments
Creative Clothing
Christopher P. Williams, Architect
Oak Street Associates
Old Mill Insurance
Innisfree Bookstore
Phoenix Leasing, Inc.
Silver Top Ventures
Minuteman Plumbing & Heating
Sava Designs
Horn Insurance
Harts Restaurant
Fermentation Station LLC
Hunter's
Waukewan Antiques
Village Greenery
Etcetera Shop
Associated Surveyors
Moulton Farm
Barber Pole Association
Trexler’s Marina
Land’s End
Wyman Trail Association
Loon Preservation Committee
1st T Development Corporation
The Woodshed Restaurant
Castle in the Clouds
Amoskeg Insurance
EPTAM Plastics
The Common Man Inn
Corner House Inn
Seacoast Kayak
Tilton Veterinary Hospital
Waterville Valley Condo Rental
Thurston’s Marina
Lighthouse Inn
Weirs Beach Motel and Cottages
Van's Hotel Enterprises
Wolfboro Inn
Island Real Estate of New Hampshire
LB Boat Restoration
Millie B
Wolfeboro Trolley Company
Wolfetrap Restaurant

[Bear Islander]

No







...

[hazelnut]

While that list represents individual businesses that support the Speed Limit it absolutely DOES NOT represent PROOF that tourism is being affected by fast boats. That my friend is one gigantic leap.

[Bear Islander]

The point is not if they think tourism if effected by fast boats.

The point is that they support a speed limit. And that, in my opinion, constitutes all the proof necessary. Many of these business are run by good old American Yankees, (the good kind, not the baseball kind). They know which side of the bread is buttered (and other euphemisms like that).

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Here is how I dissect this list.

See the bold for explanation, My favorite is how all the Great American dining establishments are listed individually. There are 6 Alex Ray places, that should only count once! Many others in Bold are tenants of Rusty McClear, and I asked at least one when this list came out why they were on it. I was told she didn't feel she had a choice!

I could go on and on. But the bottom line is this list is a joke, most of it is repeats, and some businesses didn't even know they were listed. If anyone wants I can go into more details!




The Common Man 1.
Ashalnd Insurance
Strictly Rentals
Wild Meadow Canoes and Kayaks
Centre Harbor Cellars
Center Harbor Inn
AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club)
NH Audubon
New Hampshire Lakes Association (NHLA)
Decker Machinery Company
The Architectural Studio
Fay’s Boat Yard
Birch Island Camp Association
Gilford Islands Association (GIA)
Jolly Island Association
Lockes Island Association
Belknap Landscaping Company
Design Quest
DK Net Design
E&S Insurance LLC
The Hair Factory
Mike’s Ala Carte Catering
Pepi Herrmann Crystal, Inc.
Glendale Marine
River Edge Marina
Squam Lakes Association (SLA)
Cottage Place on Squam Lake
Squam Lake Inn
Me Designs
Barrons Billiards
Blooms Vanity
J&J Printing
LaBelles Shoe Store
Central & Northern Title
Haughey, Philpot & Laurent
Lakeside Hotel Assoc.
Sundial Shops
Paugus Bay Marina
Best Western Silver Fox Inn
Griffin Bodi Krause
Municipal Resources, Inc.
Great Northern Trading Co Rusty tenant
Meredith Marina
Y-Landing = Were not aware they were listed. Call them and ask now!
Bear Island Conservation Association (BICA)
East Bear Island Conservation Association
AMC- 3 Mile Island
Winnipesaukee Rowing Club
Alexandria Lamp Shop
Case N’ Keg
Chris Dupont Painting
Christopher P. Williams, Architects
Eisenberg Chiropractic
Hawkins Photography

Landscapes By Tom
League of NH Craftsmen
Mastiff Builders
Omni Signs
Patricia’s “Specially for You”
Pemi Glass Company
Pretty Petunias Garden Center
Remax Bay Side Real Estate
Remcon/North
Sagecliff Software, Inc.
The Village Perk
Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad + Hobo Railroad Same owner!!!!!
GASCO Realty, LLC
51 Main Street, LLc
Inns & Spa at Mill Falls Rusty again
Meredith Bay Painting
The Lake House Grille 2.
Lago 3.
Camp 4.
Town Docks Restaurant 5. Alex ray
Mame's
The Gallery at Mill Falls Rusty again
Oglethorp
Guiseppies Resturant Felt threatened by landlord (Ask Julie I did)
Northern Air Trading
Lady of the Lake Clothing
Adorments Rusty tenants
Creative Clothing
Christopher P. Williams, Architect
Oak Street Associates
Old Mill Insurance
Innisfree Bookstore Rusty tenant
Phoenix Leasing, Inc. Another Rusty McClear partner!
Silver Top Ventures Principal Office Address: Mill Falls Marketplace
312 Daniel Webster Highway
Meredith NH 03253 Wonder who that could be??? Rusty you sneak
Minuteman Plumbing & Heating
Sava Designs
Horn Insurance
Harts Restaurant
Fermentation Station LLC
Hunter's
Waukewan Antiques
Village Greenery
Etcetera Shop
Associated Surveyors
Moulton Farm
Barber Pole Association
Trexler’s Marina
Land’s End
Wyman Trail Association
Loon Preservation Committee
1st T Development Corporation
The Woodshed Restaurant
Castle in the Clouds
Amoskeg Insurance
EPTAM Plastics
The Common Man Inn 6. Guess who? Alex again
Corner House Inn
Seacoast Kayak
Tilton Veterinary Hospital
Waterville Valley Condo Rental
Thurston’s Marina
Lighthouse Inn
Weirs Beach Motel and Cottages
Van's Hotel Enterprises
Wolfboro Inn
Island Real Estate of New Hampshire
LB Boat Restoration

Wolfeboro Trolley Company+Millie B Same Owner!!!!
Wolfetrap Restaurant

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

... the bottom line is this list is a joke...

The list may be a joke, but the joke is on you.

I only copied the list, I will take no responsibility for it. I suggest you go to the source and complain to them. I copied it from OffShoreOnly.com the performance boating site where the opposition hangs out.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The list may be a joke, but the joke is on you.

I only copied the list, I will take no responsibility for it. I suggest you go to the source and complain to them. I copied it from OffShoreOnly.com the performance boating site where the opposition hangs out.

Bear Islander, Yesterday I thought we were on to something better here. I thought maybe we could elevate the discussion beyond hearsay and conjecture. I thought for a minute we could get beyond the usual banter.

Then you go and post this "LIST" as, let me go back and quote you, "proof that tourism is being effected."
I then refute the list as I believe it does not represent proof of anything with regard to tourism. Tourism is affected by so many external factors that is an oversimplification to tie it to one agenda. Just like the statement that "tourism will be negatively affected by a speed limit," not a good argument in my opinion due to socioeconomic factors.
Anyway when someone, Weirsbeachboater to be specific, comes along and further questions the integrity of the list and calls it joke, which after reading the post I concur, you go ahead and say THIS????

The list may be a joke, but the joke is on you.

I only copied the list, I will take no responsibility for it...

Do you see how you begin to lose credibility or not? Do you know the phrase "have your cake and eat it too." Well you can't. When you post something as PROOF of your argument you need to be able to stand by it and defend it. Otherwise any further posts have absolutely no merit. This list is tainted and flawed, not to mention it represents a SMALL number of Winnipesaukee businesses. Oh the list may seem long and impressive but whip out the phone book and go to the Business section of the book. Now print out your little list and compare it to the hundreds of pages of just one towns business listings. As pointed out it seems that one organization Common man/Rusty McClear represents the majority of the "list." Now you want to call it a spin when people point out the inadequacies of the list? Regardless of where the list was posted the facts are the facts.

[jrc]

I'll finish this up then bow out of this thread until new data arrives. I will never convince BI and he will not scare me. It's like trying to convince my wife that polar bears don't eat penquins. They look so tasty why wouldn't they eat them.

That's the list of places that supported HB -161 three years ago, that is not a list of places who currently support a speed limit.

So to finish lets look at the last twenty years. The boat registrations in NH grew about 2% a year since 1988. Around 2002 they flatenned and then started shrinking about 2% a year. This is also true at the national level. (don't buy boat stocks) There are now double the amount of PWC sold as in 1988. Since PWC are a large portion of the total number of registered boats, I would have to reason that there has to be less non-pwc boats. Otherwise we would have more total growth.

I don't know what a Nor-tech is, I'm into comfort not speed. The USCG stats do differentiate between engine type and length but the stats are presented differently each year so trends are hard to follow. If you get past banning fast boats and get to banning big boats, it might be worth the trouble to ferret out the data and plot it.

Now maybe the USCG fudged all this data just so they can get jobs in the boating industry. Sounds silly, huh?

[Bear Islander]

I have no doubt polar bears would eat penguins if they didn't live on opposite ends of the earth.

[Resident 2B]

Regarding the list of supporters.....

Now I know where I will no longer spend any of my money, regardless of the final outcome.

Thanks so much for this list. It is key to the future activities of my family, and I hope many other families.

It is too bad that Mame's is listed. We have been going there once a week for years, but we will never go there again.

Hart’s has also been a place for us to go very often, but we will not go there any more either.

I will print this list and hang it on the refrigerator with "Do Not Support" as a heading.

I refuse to do business with any business that lacks any common sense regarding safe boating on the lake. Speed limits do not address the real safety problems that exist on the lake. Boneheads, disregarding the existing rules, including the well designed 150” rule, are the real safety issue. This bill does nothing to address these irresponsible operators.

WinnFab's agenda is not about safety at all. Instead, the WinnFabs agenda is all about restricting boaters that happen to own a certain type of boat. To me, this is not something that we Americans should be supporting, as it is imposing restrictions on a certain group because another group does not like them. Whatever happened to freedom, something that was at the root of our country's beginning? There are no facts to support any of WinnFab’s claims that speed is a factor in safety or in accidents on our lake.

I would have hoped the local business on the list had more sense than to support this predatory bill. But since these businesses have openly supported this bill, we now know what we have to do. If you are in favor of real safe boating on the lake and are not supporting HB-847, please join me in a 100% boycott of these businesses. Their actions in supporting this bill tell me they are irrational in their business decisions. Therefore, they should not be supported by people that realize what the real safety issues are on the lake.

In this case, money should talk and BS should walk. Do not support any business that intends to restrict your personal freedom because of fabricated and embelished reasons that have no basis in fact. WinnFabs can fool some of the people all of the time, but they cannot, and should not, fool all of the people all of the time.

As stated in the past, we are family boaters with two kayaks and a 23' bowrider. We live near the Weirs. We do not have any capability to go over 45 MPH in any of our boats. Safety is our concern and HB847 does not address safety in our opinion.

R2B

[Bear Islander]

That is in fact why the list was posted on offshoreonly. It's the list of businesses they will never use again.

[Lakegeezer]

Its too bad that a group hasn't formed to promote safety rather than exclusion, something like WinnSafe. The report from the MP shows that few boats are going over 45. Experienced boaters know that 99% of the safety issues occur under 45.

Places on "the list" won't miss a family here and there, because they are not represented by a group. The WinnFabs tricked businesses to sign on during their well funded marketing campaign. Many who signed probably thought they were signing up for safety - not revenge. You really can't blame them. They are fooling a lot of folks on this forum too.

What would your business do if someone asked you to sign a petition on safety? They show you a push-poll study showing 90% of non-boaters feel the same way their members do. They show you news articles and editorials that were printed within days of "educational" press releases. They talk about safety, about how kids can't canoe on weekends, how kayakers are almost run over and how Winnipesaukee has become an unfriendly place. Many of their facts are true, but some critical ones are not. They are describing Captain Bonehead, not boats going over 45 MPH. WinnFabs methods remind me too much of why the US is in Iraq. They used fear and lies to justify revenge, and fooled the house into voting for their law.

If we are to reduce the fear of boating on the lake, we need to trust those who are trying to make things better, not assume they are fools that have been swayed by fabrications. So far, that group or any proposed law has not appeared.

[JayDV]

When those store owner/operators were approached for signing the list ...

1) How was the subject introduced? As a support request for the speed bill? As an informative conversation with both petitions offered and a choice of which one to sign?

2) In the subject matter: Was the audience asked what their concerns were, vis a vis lake safety (swimmers, camp kids, power boaters, non-power boaters, pollution)? Were they offered full choice of solutions to choose from (speed limit, horsepower restriction, boater education, better enforcement) ?

Bear Islander - With all due respect, I was wondering why you qualify your concern of kids to just camp kids or your own? Of the camps on Winni, there are only a few on the islands. I haven't read anywhere here that the camps from the mainland have voiced the same outside boating concerns you listed. I applaud your efforts toward our families children, and as a former day-care host, I can understand the safety concerns. I hope my question aren't misconstrued.

Nor, for that matter, have I read of any concerns of the swimmers at the public beaches operated by the townships. Can anyone offer the formal town positions on the lake safety issues?

[Bear Islander]

Hazelnut

The "proof" is in the huge number of businesses that support speed limits. The list itself is not proof, it's just a list. Instead of picking apart the list and chipping away at the edges how about showing that there are businesses that oppose HB847.

I posted something. . . . the opposition is posting nothing!

Please tell us about the businesses that oppose HB847


JayDV

The reason why I qualified by concerns that way is because both as a camp director, and a parent, I have lost a child. But I wasn't really aware of that connection until you asked.

[KonaChick]

If tourism dollars are down in recent years at Lake Winnipesaukee it has nothing to do with fear of being run over by a fast boat. Simply put it's the economy. We entertain often on weekends up here and have never, not once been told by family or friends that they are afraid to be out on the lake. I take that back...we've been out on the broads on a particullarly choppy day and my mother did turn green. I have walked among BI and his cronies and they do indeed in my humble opinion want to see a certain type of boat/s taken off the lake. Are they using the speed rationale as their smoke screen? That I can't answer but do have my opinion. Do I get shot dirty looks and glaring stares when I take my shiny new pwc over to BI to pick up relatives to come back to our house?? Yes, quiet often.

[JayDV]

BI - Thank you for your candor. I wasn't expecting such a personal motivation. I apologize if I appeared to be lacking in couth. - JayDV

[Bear Islander]

JayDV - No problem.



Hazelnut

You are being very unfair.

You started all this by posting a "statement" of your position on speed limits. You asked for a similar statement from me. But you also requested that I not quote or pick apart your statement. Although I thought it contained a lot of unsupported opinion, I have done as you requested and not attacked it.

I posted my "statement" as requested. Now you and others are attacking every word. A capital case is being made out of my suggestion that increased numbers of larger and faster boats will cause more pollution. And it is now my responsibility to PROVE that speed limits are good for tourism.

Like you, much of what I posted was my opinion. Unlike you, I accepted your statement at face value, and stuck to the agreement.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

If tourism dollars are down in recent years at Lake Winnipesaukee it has nothing to do with fear of being run over by a fast boat. Simply put it's the economy. We entertain often on weekends up here and have never, not once been told by family or friends that they are afraid to be out on the lake. I take that back...we've been out on the broads on a particullarly choppy day and my mother did turn green. I have walked among BI and his cronies and they do indeed in my humble opinion want to see a certain type of boat/s taken off the lake. Are they using the speed rationale as their smoke screen? That I can't answer but do have my opinion. Do I get shot dirty looks and glaring stares when I take my shiny new pwc over to BI to pick up relatives to come back to our house?? Yes, quiet often.

I just did a mental calculation. My neighbor to the left has a PWC, as do 4 of the next 7 to the right. That is 5 out of 8 homes with a PWC. To be honest I'm sure that is way over the average. It could be those stares are envy, we love water sports on BI.

Next time you walk among us, please say hello.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Places on "the list" won't miss a family here and there, because they are not represented by a group. The WinnFabs tricked businesses to sign on during their well funded marketing campaign. Many who signed probably thought they were signing up for safety - not revenge. You really can't blame them. They are fooling a lot of folks on this forum too.

Lakegeezer,

I think you are correct in most cases. However, there are some businesses listed that are driving this discriminatory bill. I will certainly stay away from them, but I am sure they will not be hurt from it. I do not think it is right to deceive people in an attempt to get a certain group off the lake. That is un-American and so very wrong. How these people can live like that is beyond me.

When you think about it, the package of misinformation and hidden agendas had to have an impact on elected members of the House as well. I believe the Representatives were, in many cases, voting for the bill because of the impact the misinformation had on people in their district, making those without direct experience on the lake to think this was all about safety. Who can be against safety? When so many people contact a Rep, the Rep has to listen.

Contacting State Senators to let them know what has come out recently in this forum is very important. I believe the Senators are more educated about the situation than the Reps were, but you never know.

R2B

[JDeere]

I have to thank BI for keeping a level head and keeping to the facts without getting personal!!

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

First, I never made that claim. But more importantly, why don't YOU prove that performance boats pollute less.

The proof that tourism is being effected is in the below list of speed limit supporters. You will note many are tourist related. There are even several marinas in there. Including marinas that sell large fast boats.

You're singling out high performance boats. If they don't pollute any more than other motorized watercraft, you can't use that as an argument as to why they should go, and you did make the claim that it was time for them to go. That would be discriminatory and in violation of the public trust. If they all pollute equally, all motorized watercraft must go. And besides, I find it hard to believe that someone who wastes energy on a heated driveway is that concerned about the environment.

As for my need to prove that they're not polluting more...I ASKED YOU FIRST...NEENER, NEENER, NEENER. In all seriousness, as a proponent of a speed limit looking to make a major change on the lake, it is your burden to prove your case. Once you show your proof, then it is my burden to refute it. But if it's truly just a safety issue, then keep it as a safety issue...don't cloud it with pollution.

And your list of businesses is not proof that it is affecting tourism...how about proving that those businesses saw a loss in revenue, and that it was directly related to high performance boats on the lake? Good luck.

[fatlazyless]

Lake Winnipesaukee has been the go-to lake for high speed motorboats since about 1925. Whenever someone has a 'fast boat' on one of the many other NH lakes which annoys the neighbors, the fast boater gets told "your boat is too danged fast for this little lake, so why don't you take it over to the Big Lake, Lake Winnipesaukee.

Now, what's happened, is all the Winnipesaukee neighbors are just telling the 'fast boats' the same thing. 'Why don't you go take your fast boat over to the South Pole, or somewhere!'

And on the eighth day, God said "Melt down those fast boat, fiberglass hulls, and beat them into kayaks, and the world will be a better place!" Plus, try a bowl of granola, too. Understand the NH Dept of Mental Health is setting up a 'NH Fast Boat Rehabilitation Hospital', where fast-boaters can be admitted so's they can be cured of their "THE NEED FOR SPEED!" Balancing on one leg and eating granola at the same time is a very effective therapy.

[Bear Islander]

Talk about spin. If the list is so wrong, so inaccurate, so unfair and was obtained fraudulently, then why did the opposition post it on offshoreonly.com

Is there a list of businesses that oppose HB847? If there is then post it.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Rose

"...You're singling out high performance boats...As for my need to prove that they're not polluting more...don't cloud it with pollution...I ASKED YOU FIRST...NEENER, NEENER, NEENER..."

As one whose avocation deals with performance and high speed, I'm advising that there are products available through Internet sites that you definitely don't want in your recreational waters—much less in household waters.

One organic product in particular is objectionable to most civilized peoples of the world, but is in use in high performance applications—sadly.

Much to my dismay, it was recommended to me by friends at racetracks.

Describing it here specifically would promote its performance-enhancing properties and its even more widespread use.

(And it's not even toluene, which IS in widespread use).

[phoenix]

Lt. Dunleavy may break a record for the most replies on one thread

[Island Girl]

The most replies was on the Ice-In 2006 thread.... over 29,000 replies!!!!

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...earchid=490716

We take our ice-in and ice-out very seriously!!

IG

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Lt. Dunleavy may break a record for the most replies on one thread

Originally Posted by Island Girl

The most replies was on the Ice-In 2006 thread.... over 29,000 replies!!!!

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...earchid=490716

We take our ice-in and ice-out very seriously!!

IG

May want to rethink the situation...

Ice-in Watch 2006 ( 1 2 3)
Island Girl 03-06-2006 06:43 AM
by Diamond Isle 221 28,791

Boat Sinking????? ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
sa meredith 01-07-2008 11:15 AM
by Senter Cove Guy 306 35,894

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Island Girl

The most replies was on the Ice-In 2006 thread.... over 29,000 replies!!!!

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...earchid=490716

We take our ice-in and ice-out very seriously!!

IG

The 2006 ice-in was 29k views, not replies. It was only 221 replies, less than the 259 on this thread. Certainly not as much outside traffic coming in to watch this thread, but more posters involved.

Bear Islander wins so far with the highest number of posts on this thread. I think the Winni thong should be his prize although there is an argument on another thread about what size.

User Name Posts
Bear Islander 55
hazelnut 26
fatlazyless 13
ITD 11
codeman671 11
WeirsBeachBoater 10
Evenstar 10
Wolfeboro_Baja 9
Dick 9
Acres per Second 8
KonaChick 5
Mee-n-Mac 5
GWC... 5
Lakegeezer 5
parrothead 5
Dave R 5
chipj29 4
Islander 4
Skip 4
Skipper of the Sea Que 4
Rose 4
jrc 4
Resident 2B 3
Hottrucks 3
EricP 3
JayDV 3
Alton Bay 3
kjbathe 2
SIKSUKR 2
brk-lnt 2
trfour 2
BroadHopper 2
Island Girl 1
Rattlesnake Guy 1
daveg 1
Mark 1
Mashugana 1
Steveo 1
Island Lover 1
Neanderthal Thunder 1
rickstr66 1
winnilaker 1
phoenix 1
Seaplane Pilot 1
winnidiver 1
overlook 1
Cal 1
Woodsy 1
nightrider 1
michael c 1
Sunset Bob 1
Show Thread & Close Window

[Island Girl]

mea culpa!!! I stand corrected!

IG

[Island Girl]

Ice-In Watch 2007 270 replies 25,361 views


lol
IG

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...earchid=491420

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Island Girl

Ice-In Watch 2007 270 replies 25,361 views


lol
IG

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...earchid=491420

Not so fast, gotcha!

Here is the top one I found for both replies and views:

306 replies 35,914 views
Boat sinking thread

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ighlight=forum


More replies, less views:

368 replies 11,928 views
Speed limit test zones

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ighlight=forum

The kayak cut in half was a close third.

Don has the unfair advantage, I am sure he could find one to trump us both... Can't you tell I am suffering from serious cabin (need to be there) fever???

[Mee-n-Mac]

Well this thread may have some rank but it ain't #1.

Kayak cut in half - 292 replies and locked
Boat sinking (that Cobalt) - 306 replies and has potential
Speed limit test zones dead - 368 replies and locked

Cabin Cruiser Operators - ran a good race but - 251 replies
Forum Fest III was also in the running - 244 replies

EDIT : Dang, I shoulda hit that post button 2 mins ago ....

[Island Girl]

Those reading these posts might think we have too much time on our hands!!!!!

IG

[hazelnut]

I have my work cut out for me... Bear Islander has me by a 2-1 margin.

No thong for me this time.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I have my work cut out for me... Bear Islander has me by a 2-1 margin.

No thong for me this time.

... it's quality not quantity that matters !


FWIW : I really don't want to see the thong on either you or B.I. (and don't even mention FLL)

[Formula260SS]

Originally Posted by Island Girl

Those reading these posts might think we have too much time on our hands!!!!!

IG

we do...............

[RLW]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Lt. Dunleavy may break a record for the most replies on one thread

I don't believe it. As in all threads, everyone has a tendency to go off subject like myself answering this quote.